#atla fandom problems

[emma-o-yt]

I've called out the whole "people tried to reach out to Azula, she rejected them" thing as absolutely ridiculous due to the fact that no such scene exists. The only time it's brought up has Iroh call her crazy.

But also, the idea of rejecting a helping hand is true...for Zuko. Aang, Katara, Iroh, they all offer him a chance at redemption and he brutally denies them every time. When he actually redeems himself, he and he alone chooses that.

So the idea of Azula rejecting redemption making her irredeemable is not only stupid but objectively wrong.

[krabzine]

Remember in my other post when I said I don't like how Bryke uplift their air nomads characters by using their water tribe characters as stepping stool.

Yeah this is why, because I'm pretty sure if Bryke not only acknowledged their flaws but didn't normalise it, people wouldn't argue this. If there was no war Hakoda would have been there, there was no war for Aang but he didn't prioritise his kids.

I've seen people in their comments argue that he needed to focus on restoring his culture by only giving Tenzin attention, but if he can take the time to teach air acolytes, he can take the time to teach his biological kids about their culture.

[youcannotkillmeiamsubhuman]

Why do people always play zero-sum games with Zuko and Azula?

Like seriously, the both of them were abused, end of story. Just in different ways. Ursa neglected Azula in favour of Zuko and treated her like a monster because she was scared for Azula and knew Ozai would have influence over her the minute she showed to be a prodigy. Zuko was mentally and PHYSICALLY abused by Ozai even before he was burned and was constantly told he was worthless and deserved to die. The reason Zuko didn't end up like Azula isn't because he had it easier, it's because Iroh was there after his banishment to support him, if he wasn't then Zuko would end up exactly like Azula and that's the point isn't it? If Zuko was left in charge of a ship as a royal who sees everyone around him as lesser then he would've developed the same superiority complex as Azula's but would've spiraled faster because he didn't have a Mai and Ty Lee to hold him back. Mai and Ty Lee were the closest things Azula had to an Iroh and she spiraled the minute she lost them.

They're both traumatised and abused kids but we should stop saying who had it worse, they were in the same situation.

Also, STOP WITH THE INCEST THEORIES. AZULA NEVER TRIED TO SEDUCE ZUKO YOU F*CKING CREEPS! ZUKO HAD HIS DAUGHTER WITH MAI, NOT AZULA, SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP!

[zutara-critical]

Interestingly, both of the images were used to promote the franchise at different parts in time. If I recall, the Zutara image was created to promote the 4-part finale, Sozin’s Comet. The Kataang image is currently being used to promote the 20th anniversary concert of Avatar. I’ve seen both referred to as the representation of Tui and La in meta, so I wanted to give my two cents by comparing and contrasting these two.

In the Zutara promotional art, the first thing that clearly stands out to the viewer is that Katara looks miserable. Devastated. Her body language suggests that she’s shrinking into herself, making herself look smaller. Now, you could make the argument that since it’s the final battle, she’s upset over the circumstances, worried about the stakes, etc. Perhaps that could have rung true if it weren’t for the choice to portray Zuko beside her. He’s allowed to stand firm and tall, allowed to look heroic. Zuko is not curled into himself in the way Katara is. There’s an air of certainty and confidence poised in his appearance that Katara is not afforded. It’s troubling because the male animation director created this promotional art of an older Katara and Zuko. If the following image is meant to be romanticized, what exactly does it suggest of their dynamic? That Katara must be jaded and hurt, must be overshadowed by Zuko? That her skin must be whitewashed in order to complement him?

Compare this image to the Kataang promotional art on the right, wherein Katara is presented in a much different light. Here, Katara looks and feels empowered. She’s surrounded by her element, lifted with the energy of the moon and the ocean, next to her partner. She does not sink beside Aang, does not attempt to make herself smaller. There’s confidence and radiance in her expression, in her pose, as she bends alongside Aang. She’s not downcast, nor is her skin purposely lightened to match her partner’s. I can clearly tell that both the artist and Avatar Studios clearly wanted Katara’s legacy to be highlighted and remembered. After all, she is the deuteragonist.

I’ve seen both fandoms use these images to describe how the pairings complement one another. It’s pretty clear to me that only one promotional art takes the time to celebrate and empower Katara in all the ways that she ought to be, while the art on the left is fascinated with her misery and anguish. I wouldn’t be surprised if all of these arguments about Katara spending the rest of her life unhappy and dejected for the sole reason that she didn’t choose Zuko originated from this image. Miserable!Katara is basically a fetish for the Zutara fandom at this point.

Given all of this, you cannot convince me that Zutara is this feminist utopia for Katara, that’s suited to her wants and needs, when the visual portrayal that the fandom worships - that they claim as some sort of shipping win, and uses it to argue why the ship is balanced - does not even afford her the visual respect that she deserves. Not in the way that the second image does.

And you’re seriously going to tell me that a Zutara endgame would’ve been healthy for the characters, when the people behind the scenes who loved the ship didn’t even have the decency to portray it as such in their own damn art?

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

"Azula slept her way to the top"

But... isn't Azula already on top by virtue of being a fire nation princess? Who tf do these people think she slept with lmao

They unironically try to claim she fucked Ozai and/or Azulon to "earn" all that respect, praise, privilege and protection, ignoring that: 1 - She's a CHILD. A deeply awkward one that canonically doesn't know how to flirt. She's not sleeping around with ANYONE, any adults "involved" with her are not "pawns in her game", they're predators abusing her.

2 - These two men owed her protection and privilege whether they liked her or not (and Azulon clearly didn't) on the basis of "She's their child/grandchild." Her being safe, pampered and admired reflects well on them. It shows that they can afford to to give her the best teachers, best clothes, best food, etc. It's the same reason Ozai didn't get rid of Zuko until he had the perfect excuse to do so and why Azulon allowed them all to live in the palace despite clearly only "liking" Iroh (in his own fucked up way).

3 - Like you said, PRINCESS. Born at the top. Elite. She doesn't HAVE to do anything. If even Zuko could get respect every now and then on the basis of being a prince despite being a dysfigured, banished one, Azula, who was still living in absolute luxury with guards and servants waiting on her 24/7, sure wasn't struggling for it.

4 - Azula is a prodigy, the only person we see with blue fire, and clearly is good at battle strategy AND at playing the role of intimidating royal - all of which are much better at earning her respect and admiration than, you know, dishonoring herself, aka what her sleeping with anyone she wasn't married to would be seen as (doubly so as a princess)

5 - Azula very clearly took ZERO liberties with ANY Fire Lord and that does not suggest an incestuous dynamic. Hell, it doesn't even suggest a normal family dynamic. They were untouchable. Gods on Earth. The power they held over her, and everybody, was absolute. It doesn't matter if they're giving her the highest honors or nothing at all, her job is to bow before them saying "thank you for not killing me."

It's a classic case of "People just assign generic villainous traits to whatever evil character is in question, regardless of it making sense." Evil Seductress is a common role for female villains, therefore Azula MUST be one. I've said it once, I'll say it again, she could be wearing a burka 100% of the time and never have any interaction with any male character and someone, somewhere would still convince themselves she's the type of villain that gets it on with anybody.

Extra stupid when they use the bedroom scene in The Awakening as "proof" she's indeed a Femme Fatale that slept her way to the top, through her own family no less, ignoring that:

1 - Azula didn't sleep with Zuko, nor did she promise to or hint that she would. The tension is undeniable (thanks to Grey adoring the ship and getting the greenlight to voice it as she wanted), but neither Azula nor Zuko made a move because of course they didn't. It was not the writer's intention to go there, even if it was Grey's, so it is a moment of "...there's something weird going on here" that the narrative proceeds to ignore permanently because it wasn't part of the plan. Like a shared intrusive thought/mind in the gutter moment both characters refused to act on or even acknowledge.

And even ignoring production/intention, in universe, it makes sense that they didn't: Taboo, honor, rivalry, them both being awkward teenagers, Zuko's paranoia around Azula, Azula's need to be "perfect", etc.

Making Freud proud for a fleeting moment and then repressing the hell out of it to sleep at night is not the same as being a Femme Fatale.

2 - Even if we pretend they had sex or that Azula offered/implied she'd do it: Azula didn't GAIN anything out of that scene. Hell, she didn't even try.

She didn't get new information about the Avatar and how he might have survived (or Zuko's plans to deal with it), didn't find out about him visiting Iroh, didn't get any insight into his relationship with Mai or push him to make it more serious or break up with her, didn't find out about his Blue Spirit shenanigans or about his doubts and indentity crisis, didn't make him confirm her story to Ozai, NOTHING.

Hero X Villain romance/subtext does not make the villain an Evil Seductress when it's based on genuine attraction, without any machiavellian motivation.

3 - Zuko is bellow Ozai/Azulon in the Royal Family hierarchy, and depending on the day and circumstance, he's bellow Azula (not in the fun way). She was holding all the cards in that specific moment. Making a move on him would at best change nothing, and at worse would either ruin them both OR would be HER giving HIM a bit of power, as he'd know a shameful secret of hers and/or have something he knows she wants to use to his advantage, much like Azula used his need for Ozai's validation to her advantage.

Azula's behavior in that scene genuinely just cannot be seen as anything other than her toying with Zuko like she always does and things getting a bit strange because of the context - they're two teenagers that haven't lived under the same roof, let alone acted like siblings, for YEARS, and now they're suddenly all alone in her bedroom, at night, with her wearing just a robe.

They don't know where they stand with each other anymore. Their relationship is a confusing mess of contradictory feelings they can't properly identify, so pretty much everything, from "Why can't we just be a happy, normal family?" to "I wish you didn't exist and want to get rid of you", has crossed their thoughts. Some inappropriate stuff was bound to sneak in eventually.

And again, it's their minds (and ours, and Grey's) going there, not the plot, so even if we accept "They are attracted to each other" (and I sure do) that STILL does not mean Azula is this evil seductress using sex as a weapon against Zuko for power.

[sweetpea67]

The “respect Katara’s choices” crowd not respecting Katara’s choice to forgive Zuko is peak hypocrisy.

[maistruly]

what most ppl in the fandom refuse to accept is that iroh before he changed and azula is the same, both of them are products of their father’s greed to win the war, only difference is that iroh changed and saw the wrong things he did but azula never got the chance.

[fluffy--cheese]

It genuinely boggles my mind how much the ferally diehard Zuko & Azula apologists will grasp at the most headcanon-leaning straws to justify every single bad action they did in the ATLA series or comics in the name of "nature vs nurture" but show no hesitation whatsoever in giving the most tone-deaf flack to Mai for both actions that don't deserve flack at all AND things that are rightfully acknowledged as bad things/mistakes by even her most adoring fans (Myself included) bc we, as Mai adorers who have the media literacy to look a little deeper than the surface to wholly understand morally complex characterization, can accept the fact that a character is allowed to make bad choices & be imperfect while not justifying their actions by blaming it all on their abuse/trauma or even simply bc we love the character... and the Mai rage-haters just chalk everything up to "Mai is toxic!1!"???