I'm an oldhead when it comes to Dragonball so my knowledge is limited to OG Dragonball, DBZ, and a bit of GT- but I really dig Frieza's latest form. Having a lot of fun getting better at drawing in this style.
I am weeks late but that DEATH BATTLE!: Frieza vs Megatron video was OFF THE CHARTS! Heehoo screen cap redraw on one of the hardest scenes in the video.
Recently I saw on YouTube a recommended video by Carthu's Dojo. Well, actually, it was his other channel, "Carthu no Dojo", which I don't understand because that's just "Carthu's Dojo" in Japanese, right? Or is is meant to be English, like "Carthu [with] no Dojo." To indicate that this is a more informal video style? Kind of like Super Eyepatch Wolf and Regular Eyepatch Wolf? Sorry, I'm getting off track.
Anyway, the thumbnail hooked me, because it features Akira Toriyama's design for Goku as an old man. And the word balloon "Please let me DIE..." is a sure way to grab my attention. Also, I didn't know which side of the issue has frustrated Carthu's OC or avatar. Is he weary of Dragon Ball lingering on, or is he fed up with people who want to pull the plug?
So I finally watched the video yesterday, since I wanted to write my own take, and I was surprised to find that he mostly covered all of my talking points. When should Dragon Ball end? 1996. He makes the case for that very neatly. I'm only offended when he points out that he was born in that year because Tim-Allen-SantaClase-dot-GIF.
Wait, they've got that gif on here, I can just pull it up. And it's December so the timing is perfect! Hell yeah, let's do it!
Yeah, I'm old as dirt, but it's Christmastime so that's nice.
Anyway, Carthu's actual point is that they didn't end it in 1996, so if they insist on continuing anyway, what's left to cover? Personally, I found his list pretty underwhelming, which to me suggests that they might as well shut the franchise down now. But we'll talk about that under the cut.
I. Black Frieza Saga.
This one is pretty self-evident to anyone who read the Granolah Saga in the Dragon Ball Super Manga. That arc ended with Frieza showing up with a new form, and wrecking everyone's shit just to show that he could.
At the time, this seemed like a logical next step for the comic, which continued on after the end of the DBS anime by introducing new enemies for Goku and Vegeta to fight. And it's a pretty standard setup for a new Dragon Ball arc. A new or returning villain shows up, kicks everyone's ass, and dares anyone to stop him.
The problem is that Black Frieza debuted over three years ago. Since then we've gotten the Super Hero manga adaptation, a few more chapters of the manga, and then it went on hiatus. Akira Toriyama passed away in 2024, and then the Daima anime came and went.
At this point, there seem to be only two possible scenarios here.
It's just taken this long for them to get the Black Frieza chapters in production.
Shueisha has abandoned the Black Frieza concept.
I was never entirely sold on Black Frieza in the first place, so I'm kind of ambivalent about this. But it does seem weird to just bring that out and never follow through on it. If Dragon Ball saw a decline in popularity, I could see things ending this abruptly, but I don't think that's what happened.
It's more likely that everything is still in flux after Toriyama's passing. His involvement with Daima probably would have slowed the manga down anyway, and the original plan might have been to put the manga on hiatus, and then Tori and Toyo could plan the Black Frieza stuff in 2025, but that's no longer possible. Sooner or later they'll decide whether to do new DB projects without Toriyama, but that still doesn't guarantee Black Frieza will see the light of day.
Still, Toyotaro drew this picture of Black Frieza for Jump Festa 2025, so I guess he's still on board for a Black Frieza Saga, if nothing else. But Dan Akroyd spent decades trying to convince people that Ghostbusters III would happen. I'm not holding my breath.
II. End of Z.
I probably don't need to explain this, but the gimmick behind the "Dragon Ball Rennaissance" of 2013 to present is that all of the material is set during the "ten-year gap" between the Kid Buu fight and the 28th World Tournament where Goku meets Uub. Carthu points out that the events of Super Hero and the last few chapters of the DBS manga are "dangerously close" to the 28th Budokai, which means... what, exactly?
I mean, fans have been wondering what Dragon Ball Super would do when it reached the end of the ten-year gap, but I think we got our answer. The anime ended in 2018. The last movie came out in 2022, the manga went on hiatus in 2024.
After that, Daima sidestepped the entire dilemma by jumping back to the beginning of the ten-year gap. And Toyotaro did a new chapter of the DBS manga in 2025, but it's a prequel to the arc he did in 2022. There's no law that says they have to keep going forward.
But even if they do go forward and pass the events of the 28th Budokai, then so what? Carthu's argument is that there needs to be some sort of redux of the End of Z arc, where we get to see what Beerus and Broly were doing while Goku was taking on Uub as his student. I don't see why this is necessary. They clearly weren't at the tournament itself, so what difference does it make? They're playing bridge with Whis and Cheelai. Leemo's cooking them Mongolian barbecue for dinner, and then they're gonna watch old Deep Space Nine episodes.
I mean, you could get some mileage out of DBS characters meeting Uub after the End of Z. He can take Cheelai's place at the bridge game when she gets kicked out for cheating. I'm not sure there's enough to justify an entire arc.
Fans will sometimes bring up the idea of "updating" End of Z in order to bring it in line with the new continuity. This sounds like a useless exercise to please continuity sticklers and no one else. Like, I don't know how far Super got from End of Z, but Super's job was to fit with End of Z. If it failed so badly at this that we need a new End of Z to fix things, then that's the tail wagging the dog.
Besides, what do we do with the old End of Z? Do we just ignore that as non-canon? Well, fine, but if we're ignoring it anyway, then why do we need a new one? If End of Z no longer counts then there's no problem!
I'm not sure what fans of this idea expect, so I made a little diagram here to illustrate what I think it would look like. On the left side is a panel from one of the Dragon Ball epilogue chapters. On the right is Dragon Ball Super: Super End of Z Super Saga: Super Special Edition.
III. Planet Sadala.
I honestly don't get this one at all. This harkens back to Dragon Ball Super Episode 37, when Vegeta fought Cabba at the U6/U7 Destroyer Invitational Tournament. Vegeta defeated him handily, and Cabba invited him to visit his home planet in Universe 6.
Apparently Carthu thinks this is a plot dangler? Not a critical one, but he feels it should happen in a future anime or manga arc. And I'm not knocking the idea of it. That sounds like a fun time, but I don't see why he thinks it's so important.
Like, okay, Vegeta goes to U6 Sadala, maybe brings Goku along because they're best buddies it's Goku's show. Maybe bring along their kids and Broly, whatever you want.
What do they do when they get there?
Cabba wanted Vegeta to meet the King of Sadala.
Maybe check in on Caulifla and Kale, see how far they've come since the Tournament of Power.
Rematches? I'm sure the Noodle Saiyans have something to prove. Broly and Kale could bond over being green or whatever.
Tour of Sadala, which might be nice for Goku and Vegeta since their own Saiyan homeworld(s) in U7 were destroyed long ago.
I mean, you can build on this. Just throw in some powerful villain. Black Frost, Evil Dr. Rota, the U6 Tuffles, whatever you want to do. I'm always down for more deep lore on the Saiyans, and Caulifla and Kale were my favorite part of Super.
But why is this any more of a priority than any other fan idea? Why not have Piccolo visit U6 Namek? Or resurrect the original Perfect Cell? Why not do a Time Patrol anime? I feel like the only reason Sadala is in the conversation is because Vegeta mentioned visiting the place some day, and he hasn't done it yet.
I mean, to put this into perspective, here are some things the Dragon Ball franchise has done instead of Vegeta visiting Universe 6.
Cabba visits Universe 7 for that baseball episode.
Goten and Trunks dress up as Saiyaman X-1 and X-2.
That episode of Daima where the Gendamerie Force meets Kuu and Duu in a convenience store.
I realize these are all kind of filler moments between major events, but that's how I always imagined "Vegeta visits Sadala" playing out. It'd kind of be like that time he took Trunks to the amusment part in DBS episode 2, except he'd enjoy it more. But it wouldn't need to be more than one epiosde. Two if there's a bad guy in it.
You could expand this into an entire saga. A lot of long arcs started out as the gang trying to have a fun time and then a major crisis broke out that took 30-75 episodes to fix. That baseball episode could have been the start of the "Dark Blood Demon Hatchiyack Saga" if the writers wanted to go that route. They're playing baseball, when suddenly Whis' uncle shows up to warn them that the Dark Blood Demon seal has been shattered by ninjas. It's easy.
I'm just saying that if the only reason we're doing this is to pay off a throwaway line from 2016, then I don't think it's going to happen.
More importantly, the audience got to see Planet Sadala in the episodes where Cabba recruited Caulifla and Kale for the Tournament of Power. So that kind of kills the mystique off the bat. Vegeta might have been impressed with the place, but I thought it looked a little dull.
IV. Somebody defeats Beerus.
This is kind of weird because it makes all the sense in the world, while also making no sense at all. Since Beerus' introduction in 2013, he's been held up as this upper limit to how strong the main characters of Dragon Ball can become. Beerus sought out Goku and Vegeta because he believes he can find a worthy adversary in a "Super Saiyan God". Goku then became a Super Saiyan God and Beerus defeated him handily.
The implication throughout Dragon Ball Super has been that Goku and Vegeta are training to surpass Beerus specifically, and Beerus is supportive of that goal because he wants a good fight. Occasionally, Whis will bring up the idea that one of them might replace Beerus as the Destroyer God of Universe 7. This was further reinforced during the Tournament of Power, where Universe 11's team featured two characters who were already well on their way down that career path. Jiren defeated the U11 God of Destruction already, and Toppo literally transformed into a God of Destruction during the tournament. Then Goku and Vegeta defeated them, which demonstrates how far they've come.
And Dragon Ball Super keeps introducing new characters and power levels to add more pressure to Beerus' position. Black Frieza, Broly, Cell Max, Gamma 1 and 2, Ultra Ego Vegeta, Beast Gohan, Orange Piccolo, Moro, Granolah, Gas. And Goku keeps getting better and better at Ultra Instinct, which is a thing Beerus never learned to do at all.
So all of this hints at some future moment where Goku takes on Beerus once again and defeats him clean as a whistle. Whether or not he becomes the new God of Destruction is a whole other conversation. Jiren and Toppo's backstory seems to suggest that you're allowed to turn down the position. The point is that we can't even get into that until someone defeats Beerus.
My problem with all of this is that it's treated like a foregone conclusion, but at the same time fans act like we need to see this scenario play out in the story. This is like saying we need to see Goten and Trunks graduate high school because it's been established that they're attending high school. It's like... well, it's like saying we need to see Vegeta visit Sadala because he said he would.
The thing is... Goku defeating Beerus might be a satisfying way to wrap up that angle. It's sort of like how Goku won his first Budokai championship at the end of O.G. Dragon Ball. He lost the first two attempts then finally clinched the victory on the third try. But that victory ended with him daring Piccolo to train hard and fight him again some day. Sort of like how Beerus beat Goku and dared him to train hard.
There's no finish line for any of this. Goku never beat Majin Buu one-on-one, which is why the original Dragon Ball manga ends with Goku promising to train Uub. Uub is the reincarnation of Kid Buu, so Goku can have his rematch if he just levels Uub up to Kid Buu's tier. They didn't show that fight. The story ended with Goku looking forward to a battle in the future.
Now, sure, GT's first episode opens on that match, but this is only because GT was preparing to tell a whole new story with new battles against new opponents. Also, Goku never beat any of the major GT villains one-on-one. He had tons of help with Baby and Omega Shenron, and Super 17 just beat him outright. No one's pining for Goku to get those wins back.
The whole point of Dragon Ball is that the road goes on forever. If Goku actually defeats Beerus in some future release, then there would still be some other rival for him to face. Vegeta, of course. Broly and the others. Whis is stronger than all of them, and Whis' dad is stronger still. So I don't see why beating Beerus is supposed to be this major milestone that must be captured for posterity.
Is it because fans want to see Goku or someone else become the new God of Destruction? Why? I've been seeing fanart of various characters wearing Beerus' clothes, and honestly, it looks kind of dumb. Why does Goku the Destroyer sound appealing? We already have Beerus in that role, and all he ever does is eat and sleep and complain. Goku could do that right now. We saw him use Hakai energy in the manga. All he's missing is the win over Beerus and the title of Destroyer, and I don't see the value in either of those things.
This isn't professional wrestling, where a beloved performer Wins the Big One and gets a big gold belt to show that they're the tippy-top guy in the promotion. God of Destruction isn't an award you win, it's a job. Does anyone think Goku wants to live on Beerus' planet and get bossed around all day by the higher gods? I just don't get it.
V. Well, what would you do then?
Probably just shut the franchise down, honestly. I mean, we don't have to have a new Dragon Ball production every few years. If the best ideas on the table are "Job out Beerus" and "Remember Black Frieza?" then I don't think there's anything urgent to resolve.
In the early 2000's, I really wanted to write a Dragon Ball fanfic, but I couldn't figure out what to make it about. You could introduce a new threat and have the characters train to meet it, but that's boilerplate. Vegeta's character arc was essentially settled. So was Gohan's. So was Piccolo's. My usual approach was to do a side-story set between the major events, but that wasn't really practical, since Goku was in space between Frieza and the Androids, and dead between Cell and Buu.
Going forward never seemed to offer much. Okay, uh, a new bad guy named Washing Machine shows up and everyone has to fight that guy. I guess Vegeta sabotages the campaign because he's got a bug up his ass about something again? It's been done. And the funny thing is, I've spent the last dozen years or so watching Toei, Shueisha, and even Toriyama himself struggling with the same basic problem. Sometimes they find a good idea, but usually it's derivative. Frieza comes back. Trunks comes back. An Evil Goku turns out to be an Evil Kai. Frieza comes back. Broly comes back. The Red Ribbon Army comes back. Frieza comes back. Super Saiyan 4 comes back. Will Frieza come back?
I suppose the final fate of Dragon Ball is for it to become some sort of formulaic thing, like how the Superfriends would defeat the Legion of Doom over and over again. That's kind of what Dragon Ball Heroes was doing, where every story was the good guys using all their transforms and then busting out the fusion. I feel like that would get really dull after a while. Superfriends was... fifty years ago? Somewhere around there. I don't know that you can go back to that.
To be clear, I'm a fan of this stuff, and I'm probably willing to check out whatever they come up with next. I think there's some value in finding out what new projects emerge in a post-Toriyama world. But I've seen enough stinkers to know that the prospects are dim. Anyone as innovative as Toriyama would be better off creating their own thing completely unrelated to Dragon Ball.
And if that's ultimately what happens, that's fine with me, because I was content with the pre-2000 material we already had.
So, now that Daima has seemingly faded out of the community's mind (hasn't even been two months since it ended), the fandom is clinging now to the prospects of a DBS return because Toyotaro made a few new drawings.
The current debate war is over whether or not the Super manga will conclude with the defeat of Black Frieza.
A lot of people aren't happy when someone insists that's the ending point and are insistent that it will continue into perpetuity. They don't want Dragon Ball to "die".
The timeline is running out of space. I'd say we have roughly an in-universe year or less left before the story smacks straight into the End of Z tournament. Personally, I'm kind of doubting how it's even going to flow into that event smoothly. I'm finding it hard to believe once the main cast has tapped into the power of god and anime, that they'll pay a Tenkaichi Budokai or the reincarnation of Kid Buu any mind. I think the only way to fix this would be a "give up the powers" sort of ending, but knowing the fandom (not you guys, this side's been rather chill), something will go up in flames if that happens.
And the idea that if Super ends, the franchise ends? Did Daima mean anything to you? We can have multiple stories and timelines, don't make me tap the sign again.
As powers climb and climb, I feel like we're slowly losing the franchise's heart and charm in favor of which color can the hair turn next. I think power scalers are making up arbitrary power level readings in the octillions now. Plus, they keep making up new threats that are somehow on par with them that at times feel absurd. Like, how many casual planet busters can we squeeze into the next arc?
All that is to say... I don't think we're getting to Planet Sadala at this rate, guys.
