Reading the dire wolf trial, I tried to find what GRRM said about it as to why Cersei and Robert reacted in the ways they did. He said ages ago that Robert gave in at the end about the direwolf because he was trying to save his marriage.. but I struggle understanding this. Robert doesn’t seem to care about his marriage. Do you think it was to do with the fact she’d spent 3 days yelling at him about it and wanting Arya punished, so he gave in? What’s your thoughts? Upsetting Ned/hand/BF for that?
OK, so I was trying to find a source for that GRRM quote about Robert trying to save his marriage, and finally found this quote from GRRM's interview in St. Petersburg in 2017 -
Robert Baratheon definitely did not have an analytical mindset — he was an angry man, following his emotions. And if Sansa had told everything as it happened, he would have directed his rage at Joffrey rather than at the direwolves. But this is not accurate: at that time, he tried first of all to save his marriage.
However, that struck me as not at all like GRRM says things, and well, that's because that's actually a translation to English from the Russian translation of GRRM's response in English. So I looked harder (thank you, searcherr.work), and found what GRRM actually said:
Robert was not a, what you call, an analytical thinker. He was an impetuous, emotional man who was swayed by his emotions. And if Sansa had said what actually happened, he might have directed all his wrath at Joffrey and less at the direwolves. But it's not certain by any means, because at the same time, he was always trying to keep peace within his marriage and keep Cersei happy.
So! Clarification completed, why did Robert want to keep his marriage peaceful by keeping Cersei happy, or in other words, "save his marriage"? Why didn't he just say, "fuck it, you're right, Ned, my son's a liar and my wife is a bitch", let the direwolves go free, and divorce Cersei?
Well, two reasons. First of all, it's not for Cersei's sake. Like you said, Robert doesn't care about Cersei. However, the reason he married her in the first place was because Tywin was a powerful ally and his strength was needed to keep Robert on the throne.
"Cersei… I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne." —AGOT, Eddard VII
And by the time of AGOT, it's not just military strength that Tywin is providing for Robert, but money, and lots of it.
Grand Maester Pycelle looked to Littlefinger and asked, "Will the treasury bear the expense?"
"What treasury is that?" Littlefinger replied with a twist of his mouth. "Spare me the foolishness, Maester. You know as well as I that the treasury has been empty for years. I shall have to borrow the money. No doubt the Lannisters will be accommodating. We owe Lord Tywin some three million dragons at present, what matter another hundred thousand?"
Ned was stunned. "Are you claiming that the Crown is three million gold pieces in debt?"
"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it [...]"
—AGOT, Eddard IV
Now, why the crown is in debt is a complex question (spoilers: the answer is Littlefinger), but three million gold pieces is a lot of money. If Robert drops Cersei like a hot rock, then the Rock wants its gold back. Losing all that Lannister money and military strength -- not to mention angering Tywin -- leaves Robert in an extremely vulnerable position.
[Which is why Renly planned to introduce Margaery Tyrell to Robert to eventually replace Cersei. A Tyrell girl specifically, because the Reach is extremely strong militarily (it has the most population of any region of Westeros because it's so enormous and fertile), and also extremely wealthy (the Hightowers, Tyrell vassals and in-laws, are allegedly "as wealthy as the Lannisters"). The fact that this would replace a Lannister stranglehold on Robert with a Tyrell one, look, Renly's lover is a Tyrell, he's perfectly happy with that situation.]
Secondly, but no less significantly, Robert wants to keep Cersei happy because it's easier for him than having her unhappy. Yes, she did yell at him for three days, but that's not the main issue here. Again, citing GRRM:
Of course, that scene also says something about Robert. And that's ominous, I think, that Robert doesn't stand up to Cersei in that scene when she demands, you know. Lady was completely innocent of the whole incident, but she's being a little vindictive there, and Robert is caving in. And that gives you, I think, an indication of the character of Robert. Robert does not like that kind of conflict. Robert likes the kind of conflict that he can win by hitting his opponent with a war hammer. But he doesn't like the kind of verbal argument, wrangling, and back and forth. That sort of thing just drives him crazy, he just wants it over with. 'Okay, you want that, I don't care about that, do it, let's stop this.'
Robert's primary flaws as a ruler are (1) he is lazy, does not want to rule, lets other people do the work, and does not care about their malfeasance; and (2) he hates verbal discussions and wants every solution to be something he can hit. And hitting Cersei was not a solution here, not in public in front of hundreds of people at least. (Especially in the hall of a house notably loyal to the Targaryens.) Talk about news getting back to Tywin, and Robert has enough issues without people actively gossiping he's like Aerys the Mad or Aegon the Unworthy. But "why didn't Robert just hit Cersei to make her stop bothering him" is a reddit-ass question so we'll put that hypothetical away in the garbage where it belongs.
Anyway! To sum up, Robert wanted to keep his marriage peaceful, and gave into Cersei on the direwolf question, because it was much easier than otherwise. Over, done, moving on now, where's the food. And as for upsetting Ned... well, Ned took it, didn't he, and that loyalty above all is one of his greatest flaws.
Sorry for asking this... I remember I've seen a past post of yours (Sorry if that post wasn't yours but you reblogged from our fellow jonsas), where you listed all the instances where GRRM used Fire as the Negative connotations in his interviews... I couldn't find it in your meta collections but if it's possible, Can you please link it???
Hi there!
My guess would be that @kellyvela did that.
I just had a look and didn't find it, but they have a huge knowledge of what GRRM said.
I tend to take interviews with a grain of salt. There is enough negative fire connotations in the books if you ask me.
Martin quotes Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar” from memory:
“The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.”
Then he adds his own version:
“We shouldn’t forget about the evil that good men do. But we shouldn’t forget about the good either,” he says. “I do think a society needs heroes. They don’t have to be flawless.”
Is there a comprehensive list of actors GRRM cites as faceclaims or is it all in disparate blog posts?
Most of it isn't in blog posts at all, it's things GRRM's said at conventions or interviews. (Note for anyone going "Them, really?", check the dates and what the actor looked like at the time.)
So, a quick list:
Sandor Clegane: Ron Perlman
Cersei Lannister: Nicole Kidman
Jaime Lannister: Cary Elwes
Tyrion Lannister: Peter Dinklage
Tywin Lannister: Kurtwood Smith or Robert Duvall
Renly Baratheon: Adrian Paul (also for young Robert)
Arianne Martell: Apollonia Kotero
Nymeria Sand: Janina Gavankar
Daenerys Targaryen: Tamzin Merchant
And sources:
November 2000, fan con report: "Pearlman, from BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, would be great for Sandor. Best guy for Tywin: the father on THAT 70s SHOW and who was the father of the kid, who shot himself, in THE DEAD POETS SOCIETY (I think I spelled it all right)."
December 2003: "...I have a few people in mind. I think Nicole Kidman would be good as Cersei. I always liked Ron Perlman, the actor I worked with on 'The Beauty and the Beast’. He would be great as Sandor Clegane. Ron is very good in heavy make-up and he’s also a big, strong kind of guy. He has a great voice that he can do all sorts of wonderful things with. I think he would be terrific as the Hound. For Jamie Lannister, a couple of years ago I would have said Cary Elwes but he might be too old now. I don’t know…"
c. 2006: "Myself, I'd love to see Tywin played by Kurtwood Smith (as in DEAD POET'S SOCIETY) or Robert Duvall (THE GREAT SANTINI)."
July 2006, fan con report: "On being asked about "the casting game" (picking actors to play the characters), he said the only one who he would definitely choose was Ron Perlman to play Sandor "The Hound" Clegane because of Perlman's aptitude for acting through prosthetics."
February 2007, fan con report: "When asked about ideal casting choices, he formally endorsed the idea of Nicole Kidman playing Cersei. He says she has the perfect look for her. But it would never work, because where are you going to find a guy that looks like her to play Jaime? I really got a kick out of that. He also said Ron Perelman would be perfect as the Hound -- but I am pretty sure I had hears or read that somewhere before."
date/source uncertain, but c. 2007: "Adrian Paul and I actually worked together once, long before the Dreamsongs audiobook. Wonder if he remembers. Back then he had a great look for Renly…but of course, that was twenty years ago."
February 2008: "Much as I *cough* admire Salma Hayek, I picture Arianne as looking more like Appollonia Kotero, as she was around the time of PURPLE RAIN."
November 2008, Elio Garcia: "George has said in the past that Adrian Paul is Baratheonish in looks (years ago he said he could see him for a young Robert or Renly)"
May 2009: "Playing Tyrion Lannister will be Peter Dinklage, who was almost everyone's "dream casting" for the role (he certainly was mine)."
August 2009: "I know my readers play the casting game. Well, confession time, so do I. Ever since I began A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE (way back in 1991, thought it wasn't until 1994 that I got writing in earnest), there was always a little part of me that would watch every television show and movie with one eye looking for actors and actresses who might work as my characters.
And so there I was, watching THE TUDORS (which I have VERY mixed feelings about, I confess), when Tamzin Merchant came on screen as the fifteen year old Katherine Howard, Henry VIII's fifth wife. I sat up at once, thinking, "Hmmm, she could be a good candidate for Dany.""
July 2011, Janina Gavankar: "George just told me I look like Lady Nymeria." (additional link 1) (link 2)
Is your chosen username anything to do with Ray Bradbury’s story by chance? If so, Mildly ironic given the current stete of fandom
It's not the primary reason for my URL (that would be the Simpsons), but yes, "A Sound of Thunder" and the butterfly effect are among the many reasons I love butterflies. I don't think it's ironic re the current state of fandom though, I've long noticed GRRM citing the butterfly effect to explain how a small adaptational difference can lead to great changes by the end, since 2011, and particularly since GOT S5 and S8. So it's not surprising GRRM cited it again re HOTD, it's one of his standards along with Scarlett O'Hara's kids. Heck, he cited both things in an interview (regarding the question of whether HOTD was "canon") only 2 years ago. By definition the butterfly effect is just a single wingbeat that eventually makes a hurricane, but for GRRM it's a drum he's never stopped beating.
So, regarding the butterfly effect in GOT... let's give some examples. One of the butterflies GRRM used to talk about was that in the show, Khal Drogo killed Mago (in the epsiode airing June 5, 2011) whereas in ADWD (released July 17, 2011), Dany is captured by the khalasar where Mago is a bloodrider, and GRRM has said he'll be a significant character in TWOW. How the show handled it... they basically replaced him with Khal Moro, and tbqh, due to GRRM's own flat characterization of the Dothraki, it's hard to tell if there will be any difference between one brutish thug threatening to rape Dany vs another brutish thug with a slightly different name. Maybe TWOW will surprise us there, but if so, I really will be surprised.
Another butterfly (mentioned in the Mago link above) was that in GOT, Marillion never went to the Eyrie, and instead went to KL and got detongued by Joffrey. Thus, Marillion never became Lysa's favorite, and his plot with Sansa in ASOS/AFFC never happened. So Petyr didn't have anyone to blame for Lysa's murder... and yet in the show, he really didn't need Marillion, he convinced the Lords of the Vale that Lysa committed suicide. However, this was done by Sansa revealing her true identity to them... which cut off the Alayne plotpoint altogether. And that leads to what GRRM might call the greater "toxic butterfly" of Jeyne Poole not being an actual character in the show (she appears for half a second at Winterfell and never again), and thus Sansa took her place in the Ramsay storyline. But to be frank, I don't believe Jeyne's absence had any real "butterfly effect" on the show... even if had she been an actual character and Sansa's companion that Littlefinger made into a prostitute at one of his brothels, D&D never would have brought her out again to play "Arya". David and Dan deleted the Alayne plotpoint and Sansa's AFFC/TWOW storyline, and instead sent Sansa north to be married and raped because that's what they wanted to do with her character, not because they "had to" because Jeyne wasn't there. (And if they ever told GRRM otherwise, they lied.)
And that's the truth about the "butterfly effect" straight up. GRRM seems to believe a story must flow logically to its conclusion and thus removing even a small element changes that conclusion. But the truth is that D&D could have done whatever they wanted, dead/nonexistent characters or otherwise. Aegon and JonCon not existing is not what made Dany a mad queen and burn KL, they chose to make her a mad queen because that's the story they wanted to write. The bizarre nonsense of the show Dorne storyline is not because they removed Arianne, but because they wanted to make Ellaria both vengeful and uncaring about her lover's family. Smalljon Umber surviving the Red Wedding is not why Osha and Rickon died, it's because they wanted to kill off Osha and Rickon and add another heartless Northern villain. Flow does not truly apply, this isn't an atmospheric system and it's not a real history. Nothing forced D&D into doing anything except budget/orders from above/other business issues. It's fiction, it's the story they constructed, they chose to construct it that way, because "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."
Now, regarding HOTD -- let me first provide a quote from GRRM from the "canon" interview I linked above:
George: And the more you read about history, the more inconsistencies you had. So I thought it would be fun to do that in Fire and Blood. And so when I’m relating what happened here, and I’m thinking about what can happen.
Yeah, I… oh, this would be great. This would be really outrageous, it would be… and then, eh, it’s probably too outrageous. Here’s probably what… the more realistic version of it. And wait a minute, this version makes Fred the villain and Bill the hero. And this version makes Bill a villain and Fred the hero.
And then at some point it hit me. Why don’t I give all versions? Cause history is uncertain. I’ll give all versions and it’ll be fun for me. I can put in all the really outlandish scurrilous things, the way Mushroom sees it, but I can also put in the things that are probably more…
Aziz: They’re sources, yeah.
George: And that worked fine for those who liked that thing, although some don’t. But if I was writing it as a novel, if I’d been writing this in the form of the books in A Song of Ice and Fire, like Winds of Winter, which I’m writing now. When I get to a chapter in The Winds of Winter and I know something’s gonna happen. How does it happen? What are the things? I think I could do it this way. I could do it that way. I have to make up up my mind. In Fire and Blood, I didn’t have to have to make up my mind, but Ryan and Miguel, when they’re adapting it, they largely had to make up their mind.
So. In his (deleted) blog post, GRRM talks about the absence of Maelor being a butterfly, so that the Blood & Cheese scene didn't have Helaena choosing between two sons (only between a son and a daughter), and he thinks it's unlikely they'll have the Bitterbridge scene with the Kingsguard Rickard Thorne heroically trying to protect Maelor (who is torn to pieces by the crowd). GRRM said that this will affect Helaena once again, because Maelor's death is why she commits suicide in F&B and he says in the S3 outline Helaena does it for "no reason". Welp. First of all, it's kind of hilarious that the wiki immediately cited GRRM's blog post, because IDK if GRRM recalls that in F&B he gave multiple reasons for Helaena's suicide (several weeks after Maelor's death!) through the book's conceit of multiple historians:
because she learned she was pregnant after being gangraped in a brothel along with her mother per Mushroom's wild story of the "Brothel Queens" (though Gyldayn reasserts no part of Mushroom's story is credible)
because she watched two knights who had tried to rescue Corlys be hanged and this upset her, per Munkun (though Gyldayn thinks it's unlikely because she didn't know them)
because Mysaria told her that night that Maelor had died and how he died, per Septon Eustace (though Gyldayn says it's hard to understand what motive Mysaria would have had for doing so)
because she didn't actually commit suicide, she was pushed, because Rhaenyra ordered her murder (what the smallfolk believed, which per Mushroom was a rumor spread by Larys Strong, and note Gyldayn does not discredit him here)
So whatever reason they're choosing for Helaena's suicide in HOTD (I doubt it will remain "for no reason" between outline and script and broadcast), it may be hard to argue it's not textually based given the multiple choice options in the text. Plus, there's a possible reason in the book that is unmentioned by Gyldayn -- that only a short time before, Daemon had his murder-suicide battle with Aemond above the Gods Eye. Though it seems that the news of that battle didn't reach KL until a day after Helaena's suicide, book!Helaena was not a dreamer the way show!Helaena is. And the show has already drawn a connection between Helaena, Daemon, Aemond, the battle above the Gods Eye, and prophecies. So again, I very much doubt she will kill herself "for no reason" in the show. It may not be the same reason as in F&B, but there should be some reason.
But the fact that GRRM stated outright that the Maelor reason is the real one and therefore he's an important character who should not be butterflied away -- well, that blog post did what his book deliberately failed to do. GRRM wrote a book with so many multiple choice conflicting narratives, deliberately, because he didn't want to make up his mind, so in its adaptation the HOTD writing team chose to write a narrative that picks and chooses among them (and sometimes, yes, makes up new shit), because they did have to make up their mind (and not do a Rashomon framing device). And only now he's like "no that's wrong, there is a real true history there and I'm mad they're not doing it"? I'm sure it's frustrating to GRRM, but if it's a problem, it's been a problem since the very start!
I mean, I am deeply sympathetic to him being disappointed by an adaptation once again, especially if he thought being an executive producer would give him more power than GOT's co-executive producer status but again that was just an empty title with no power at all. And especially if he has been telling the HOTD writers truths the book didn't, only to be dismissed with something like "well you didn't say that in the book so we're doing it differently". And especially if he thought a particular scene was very fine writing and characterization, and is disappointed that the show is unlikely to broadcast it to a greater audience. Y'klnow... damn the NDAs, but someone really ought to get GRRM's opinion regarding Septon Meribald's broken men speech, frequently considered one of his best, and how they did something rather different in GOT... and lbr, the Rickard Thorne Bitterbridge scene was a nice bit of a knight actually keeping his vows for once, but it doesn't compare.
(Seriously, let's be real. We all know GRRM's real issue is with what GOT did to his legacy. HOTD is just the one he thinks he might be able to nip in the bud before they make so many changes... and if he can't, that's just the wound of GOT all over again.)
And I do agree that Helaena's suicide is important, however it happens. The KL riots being sparked by her suicide are also important. (Though I very much doubt they won't exist at all in any form -- again see that vision from S2E8 and the fact that it included a scene evidently from the Storming of the Dragonpit.) And Maelor is important as well for something GRRM didn't mention (perhaps he thought he couldn't get away with it, though evidently he couldn't get away with saying anything) -- the fact that his death is what causes Daeron's heel turn from a sweet kid to a war criminal, and thus the Sack of Bitterbridge and Lady Caswell's own suicide (imo far more emotionally moving than Thorne's stand against the crowd). But... those butterflies don't necessarily have to be "killed", as GRRM fears. Daeron (who at least we know exists in the show) can have a heel turn for a different reason. Bitterbridge can be sacked for a different reason.
If that's what they choose to do, because yes, Daeron doesn't have to have a heel turn at all, Bitterbridge doesn't need to be sacked at all, the entire southern campaign can be a different story, they can write anything they want, as faithful to F&B as they want or otherwise. But GRRM's greatest worry seems to be that a less-than-faithful adaptation won't be a "logical and convincing" story where all the points lead to a conclusion, and... I'm truly sorry to say, that does not necessarily follow. Whatever conclusion HOTD reaches will be the sum of whatever came before. If some parts aren't built up as well as they should be, lbr F&B's Dance has had the same critiques for years. And again, the multiple-historian conceit, as well as it being a history and not a POV narrative, has never helped this issue, because it lead to one of F&B's greatest faults -- that it is not consistent with itself. (Unrelated to the Dance: see Alysanne's attitude towards Baelon inheriting at the end of the Long Reign chapter, vs pages later in the Heirs of the Dragon chapter. "You will be a great king" vs "a cock is not essential"... these chapters were written years apart, and not edited together nearly as well as they should have been.) If GRRM has a different story in his head that is more consistent than was put on the page, again this may be too little too late for all the work already put into the show.
However... I have a very strong feeling that it's not "Maelor the missing" or even whatever's happening with Helaena and the riot, or Daeron and Bitterbridge, that's GRRM's real worry about "toxic butterflies". I think the subject he really wanted to talk about, and knew he absolutely could not (and yet perhaps hoped that post could pressure HBO about), is the absence of Nettles. Her absence would greatly change the relationship of Daemon and Rhaenyra, who we've seen HOTD has chosen to portray as an OTP, a toxic one perhaps, "always meant to burn together". But it was already portrayed as odd in F&B for Daemon to lose his head chasing after a teen girl (if IMO entirely consistent with his personality), but with HOTD's apparent Daemon/Rhaenyra plot... Well, see S2's process starting with him leaving her in ep2, to their reunion in ep8 convinced she's the queen chosen by the gods... is Nettles going to come in and blow that up? Make Daemon abandon Rhaenyra again? It could be told in a "logical and convincing" way, I still think it should be, but at this point it's hard to see how it would be. (And looking at GOT in comparison, Nettles does not have either the textual value nor the fanbase that Brienne has, and just look how they ended their toxic OTP of Jaime/Cersei, despite the books.)
But plot and relationships aside, Nettles is a character whose meaning reaches well beyond F&B, to affect ASOIAF itself. Her legacy regarding Targaryen exceptionalism, to the subject of who can really ride a dragon, her legacy regarding the Vale's Burned Men... all these are elements that may be extremely important in TWOW and ADOS. So if GRRM has been trying to convince Ryan that Nettles is the most important character that should not be eliminated, and yet has been shut down... well, no wonder he's been depressed about his own legacy.
And again, I'm sure it's the deeper wound of GOT's ending that's been truly paining GRRM regarding his legacy, that their ending that may be the only thing anyone ever sees. Perhaps he was hoping that HOTD could help correct the issue. That its foreshadowing would help readers understand the truth, what happens in TWOW and ADOS, the real ending. But... again I'm deeply sympathetic, and I'm sorry HOTD couldn't be that for him, but the truth is no other television show can be GRRM's legacy in that way. The only thing that can correct GOT is his own words. The only thing that truly matters is him finishing TWOW and ADOS... and it's been 13 years since ADWD, 5 years since GOT S8. I want to tell him, so much, fuck the butterflies-- as you've said so many times yourself, the show is not the books. Leave them be in their other universe and focus on your own, please. Please.
Because, again, let's be real. If GRRM does finish his grand epic and completes his legacy, his last word on the subject... if this makes HBDiscFlix want to do a GOT remake once they have an actual story to adapt "correctly" (which they still won't)... you know that when the final season of Game of Thrones Brotherhood comes out in 2050 and Tyrion rides a dragon despite having no Targaryen ancestry... all the clickbait sites and YouTok will have vidposts like "The Missing Character from House of the Dragon - What You Don't Know About This GOTB Development!" It won't matter what HBO did or didn't do with HOTD. It's just GRRM's own words in the end... if he has them.
HotD seems a bit kinder to Ser Otto and Queen Alicent and now even Ser Gwayne. Granted the Hightowers we meet in the main story are only just briefly mentioned by other characters, but what do hear of them like Leyton or Lynesse aren't that great. The Lannister get a lot of (not undeserved) flack from within the fandom, but are under-the-radar terrible as Houses like the Lannisters or even the Freys or Boltons?
I wouldn't say HOTD is kinder to the Hightowers, as much as it allows them to be real people and not just historical caricatures or empty shells. (The biggest failure of F&B's history book conceit, more than any of the other problems with that book.)
For example, Gwayne in the book gets assigned to the Gold Cloaks to keep an eye on them in case some are still loyal to Daemon, and then during the Fall of King's Landing gets murked by his own men because indeed they are still loyal to Daemon. That's it, that's all there is to him, there's no there there. (Although the "You turncloaks!" "Daemon gave us these cloaks and they're gold no matter how you turn them." is a great line, and I hope it's kept even if Gwayne may not be involved.)
Gwayne in the show, however, is a prissy classist racist aristocrat, who is still brave in battle and protective of his sister and caring for his nephew; he's a knight who helps depict GRRM's knighthood themes with Criston; he's an actual person, both good and bad as a GRRM character should be. I have hopes that Gwayne takes the Ser Hobert Hightower role for the Caltrops and Second Tumbleton, that would be a great ending (especially considering his relationship with Daeron) for an excellent actor.
Re the main story Hightowers -- well, generally GRRM goes by Tolstoy's principle of "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Or as he put it, "happy families are boring." Not everyone always gets along in real families, and even the most beloved king and queen can be real assholes to their daughters. I imagine that when we actually meet Leyton in TWOW and find out exactly how complicated his family is -- four wives and ten children, you know there's friction there -- we'll see something imperfect, but different from the Lannisters, Freys, or Boltons. Maybe more dysfunctional the way Cregan Stark's family was dysfunctional or the Tyrells are dysfunctional. (If you think they're a perfectly happy family, then you entirely missed Olenna's relationship with Mace, Mace's relationship with Willas and Loras, Mace's relationship with Margaery, Olenna's relationship with Alerie, and so on and so forth.)
I can see Leyton as a patriarch who became increasingly distant as he got more into esoteric research (he hasn't come down from the top of the Hightower in more than a decade), leaving the eldest son Baelor to manage everything practical in the absence of his father. Was Leyton already half-distant the year before he stopped leaving the Hightower, and that's why he let his youngest daughter (only 16 or 17 years old) marry a newly knighted 35-year-old poor-ass lord from the back of beyond just because he did well in a tourney? How did the rest of the family react to that? The people of Oldtown don't think much of Lynesse now, but how did they feel when their young golden lady was taken away by a bear? These kinds of complicated relationships are the sort of detail GRRM loves to sink his teeth into, and is one of the reasons I'm so looking forward to Sam's Oldtown chapters almost more than anything in TWOW.
(Sansa anon here) I don't understand how fans can be so malicious to an 11-13 y/o character. They write meta about how she is so terrible in comparison to the other Stark kids, so weak and mediocre, malicious, two faced, doesn't know what love is, etc. And say that anyone who disagrees is stupid, wrong, just a "Sansa stan", etc. Has GRRM said anything to back any of it up? Or the books? It's been years since I've read them, but IDR anything like it. It hurts my heart...Sansa is special to me :(
Sansa anon! I haven’t heard from you in years! So good to see you, so to speak, and I hope you’re doing well, especially considering… everything really, sigh.
Anyway, again sigh, I don’t understand those malicious fans either. I wish it were only shownly fans and their attitude towards a now-adult woman, but I still see it from supposed book-only fans too. Stupid damned shipwars certainly don’t help – they’ve even given a terrible reputation to “sansa stans”, and it’s so hard to fight that when there are horrible character-bashing Sansa fans being misogynist and delusional as fuck in the name of their awful ship. (Though you sometimes get some misogynist and delusional ones on the other side, too, alas.) Nevertheless, I do claim to be a Sansa stan, still, and fuck all haters (both sides, tyvm).
Do the books back up this hate? No, I would certainly say – of course people can interpret things the way they like, but they’re wrong. :) Though I’m afraid I don’t have the time to research word-by-word, sorry, but let me just refer you to @turtle-paced’s wonderful post about Sansa’s intelligence, for one, and other posts on @asoiafuniversity about Sansa may help you too.
Has GRRM said anything to back up the hate? No, not at all. The opposite, rather. A few points by him:
He did say when he created the Starks, they got along too well (families aren’t like that), so he developed Sansa as Arya’s opposite. And that Sansa and Arya still have deep issues to work out. That doesn’t make Sansa “terrible”, just very different from her sister, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
His original pitch letter for ASOIAF did not include Sansa as part of the “five central characters” and in fact gave her a pretty bad fate. However, he was very annoyed that the letter was released to the public, as it was intended for him and his publisher only. He said that in the outline he was “making shit up” and “characters changed along the way”. And notably, when asked about the fates of the “main five”, he also included Sansa: “Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”
“[We] mentioned to George that some people gave Sansa and Catelyn a lot of grief, claiming they “whined” too much. George was quite adamant that he disagreed with those readers.”
“… it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.” (more on this subject here)
“I don’t concern myself over whether my characters are “likeable” or “sympathetic.” (I had my fill of that in television). My interest is in trying to make them real and human. If I can create a fully-fleshed three-dimensional character, some of my readers will like him/her, or some won’t, and that’s fine with me. That’s the way real people react to real people in the real world, after all. Look at the range of opinions we get on politicans and movie stars. If EVERYONE likes a certain character, or hates him, that probably means he’s made of cardboard. So I will let my readers decide who they like, admire, hate, pity, sympathize with, etc. The fact that characters like Sansa, Catelyn, Jaime, and Theon provoke such a wide range of reactions suggests to me that I have achieved my goal in making them human.” (source)
So, yes… Sansa may be a divisive character in the fandom… but that just means that GRRM thinks she’s more fully human character than a less-divisive one. Which I think is a good thing. :D I hope this helps you, my dear Sansa anon, at least a little bit, and please feel free to use my submit box if you want to reply anonymously while my inbox is closed, no worries about the guidelines there.
Hi! Thank you for your awesome blog. Regarding Duncan and Jenny, if GRRM said in an interview that love between a lordling/lady and a peasant never happened in the past, and beeing ASOIAF very realist and all, why do you think we wrote such couple? I get that he married for love, ironically against his father's wishes, but he could fell in love with a noble, nowing his place, why a peasant? Or is it just for the songs?
GRRM hasn’t said that romance between a lord and a peasant never happened, that people never went outside their class structures, he said it never happened without consequences. And serious consequences were definitely what happened; Duncan and Jenny’s marriage was a major source of friction, and there is a direct line from it to the downfall of House Targaryen.
Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. –thoughts of Barristan Selmy, ADWD, The Kingbreaker
“Why did they wed if they did not love each other?”“Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.”“A woods witch?” Dany was astonished.“She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.”“What became of her?”“Summerhall.” The word was fraught with doom.
–ADWD, Daenerys IV
It had long been the custom of House Targaryen to wed brother to sister to keep the blood of the dragon pure, but for whatever cause, Aegon V had become convinced that such incestuous unions did more harm than good. Instead he resolved to join his children in marriage with the sons and daughters of some of the greatest lords of the Seven Kingdoms, in the hopes of winning their support for his reforms and strengthening his rule.With the help of Black Betha, a number of advantageous betrothals were made and celebrated in 237 AC whilst Aegon’s children were still young. Had the marriages taken place, much good might have come of them … but His Grace had failed to account for the willfulness of his own blood. Betha Blackwood’s children proved to be as stubborn as their mother, and like their father, chose to follow their hearts when choosing mates.
[…]
It was true that Aegon had been a friend to the smallfolk, had practically grown up among them, but to countenance the marriage of the heir to the throne to a commoner of uncertain birth was beyond him. His Grace did all he could to have the marriage undone, demanding that Duncan put Jenny aside. The prince shared his father’s stubbornness, however, and refused him. Even when the High Septon, Grand Maester, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favor of his brother Jaehaerys, and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone.Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm’s End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm’s End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel’s heir.
[…]
Prince Jaehaerys was not as forceful as his brother, but when Duncan defied his father to follow his own heart, and the king and court yielded to his desire, the younger prince did not fail to take note. In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan’s marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married.
[…]
Jaehaerys and Shaera would have two children, Aerys and Rhaella. On the word of Jenny of Oldstones’s woods witch, Prince Jaehaerys determined to wed Aerys to Rhaella, or so the accounts from his court tell us. King Aegon washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way.
[…]
Corrupted by the example of his brothers, even King Aegon’s youngest son Prince Daeron vexed his father in like manner. […] Prince Daeron brought to his father, Aegon, an altogether deeper sort of grief when he was killed in battle in 251 AC, leading an army against the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig. Ser Jeremy died at his side…
[…]
Though friends and counselors sought to dissuade him, King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he ever wield sufficient power to make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees. […] What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall…
[…]
… the blood of the dragon gathered in one …… seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king’s own septon had warned …… pyromancers …… wild fire …… flames grew out of control … towering … burned so hot that …… died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman …
[…]
…the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely’s reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches.
–The World of Ice and Fire
Because of Duncan choosing Jenny, the tradition of Targaryen incest continued, as well as the miserable marriage of Aerys and Rhaella. Because of Duncan choosing Jenny, Aegon was unable to make the alliances he needed to make the changes he wanted to make to Westeros. Because of Duncan choosing Jenny, Aegon looked to dragons instead, and so the Tragedy of Summerhall happened. Because of Duncan and Jenny, the once thriving House Targaryen was wiped out to only 5 people (soon 3) named Targaryen and one (soon two) named Baratheon. From which we can see the seeds of Robert’s Rebellion, and the end of the ruling House Targaryen.
And all that singers remember is “Jenny of Oldstones, with the flowers in her hair”.
