@inkdagger - I hope you don’t mind me cutting and pasting your reblog of my post - I just wanted to be able to put it under a Read More so as not to clutter anybody’s dash too much, since this is super long already.
I like a lot of this post and I’m intrigued by the thoughts but there’s a bit that’s kind of bugging me and I would like to offer discussion. :)
I don’t think its so much ‘same sex couples couldn’t participate in Dalish Society’ so much as ‘Same Sex couples can’t do everything a heterosexual couple could within Dalish Communities’ and that’s why they might be looked down upon.
Let’s go with the example of the parents being killed off and their child/children orphaned. BOTH a Heterosexual Couple or a Homosexual Couple could ‘adopt’ those children. However, the heterosexual couple is still (presumably, but infertility is still a thing so we should take that into account) perfectly capable of creating of their own AND taking on children who’s parents are dead or otherwise unaccounted for. The Homosexual Couple still can’t create off spring of their own. I don’t think they’d be shunned from adopting children or participating in other parts of society, but I do think the Dalish would still consider ‘You could still be creating children of your own and you aren’t’.
In a very basic sense; I have two couples. One of them can create children of their own and adopt children too. The other couple can only adopt children. Which is valued more in a society based on survival and does value procreation as one of many aspects of survival in order to deal with (presumably) very high child mortality rates?
“Homosexual individuals or couples within a committed same-sex relationship would not want to stay within an oppressive clan, and would leave for another clan or even forsake the Dalish altogether.“
I’m afraid that doesn’t ring exactly true to me. I mean, I’m sure that there would be same sex couples who would try to leave those clans, but abandoning your clan is a big deal. Merrill is someone who is going against what the clan approves of entirely and she still doesn’t want to leave them at all and still loves them deeply even if it hurts. She considers being asked to leave her clan horrible and being actively kicked out of it is treated as a really low point for her. It is abandonment of your entire family and culture, or it is portrayed as such when it comes up. Considering how many Dalish deeply value their culture, I doubt there’d be a ton of them willing to forsake their people.
We have homosexual couples who live in African Countries and Russia which are incredibly homophobic where the price of homosexual behavior could be death compared to the ‘frowned upon’ that the Dalish have. But those people may not be in circumstances where they can pack up their lives and just leave their home, family, friends, and entire culture behind them for various reasons. And many of those people stay in those oppressive places in hopes of changing them from the inside. I don’t see why the same trains of thought wouldn’t be within the Dalish.
Also, while its completely illogical to shame a group of people who can still otherwise be a use to society, its not entirely unrealistic. We in our world have that in this day and age; Look at how over populated our foster care/adoption systems are. And yet there are THOUSANDS of people who will insist that gay couples are incapable of raising kids or otherwise unsuited for that job. Its illogical but, when it comes down to it, people and the societies created can be incredibly illogical, impractical, and even hypocritical.
Potentially, this could even be a plot point and point of development for Dalish Society in future games? It would be interesting to see a dialogue about this and for them to be pushed towards development.
This is something I’m legit curious about within other societies too; I want some of their values to be more deeply questioned and understood and maybe even challenged and changed over the course of the series. For example, the Big Bad (basically villains) Qunari Society have very VERY restrictive gender roles with in society, but also “accept” someone who identifies their gender differently than the one assigned at birth. I put that in quotes because we only have a single statement of that information of acceptance from a source that doesn’t elaborate that detail further and one that I feel may not find to be the most credible so part of me wants to take that statement with a grain of salt; After all, gays can get married in the US right now and serve openly within the military, but that doesn’t exactly mean that they’re accepted among the populace.
My first thought when I heard that was a question of if this society, one that is very well known for Mind Raping anyone who disagrees with their philosophy into submission and obedience; I wondered if they might brain wash their own citizens into identifying differently in some bizarre attempt to slide certain people into roles they wouldn’t be able to have due to their gender identity or other personal traits and effectually circumvent their own restrictive gender roles. Thus a hypocrisy within their own society. I don’t see why they wouldn’t and it would be perfectly in character for them to do so, but Its a terrifying and really uncomfortable question with even further uncomfortable implications. It would be an interesting one to explore if just REALLY needing a lot of tact if the writers were to approach it.
Like I said, I think its less ‘You can’t have a role in our society’ and more of ‘You can do all of these roles in society, but you aren’t fulfilling this one role in society that other couples are able to fulfill’.
Those are just my two cents and I’d love to discuss this more if anyone wants.
I’m happy to discuss this with you, but I hope you don’t mind if I restrict my response to discussion of the Dalish, as opposed to the Qun, as I am not as up to date with my qunari lore.
For your main point, as I mentioned in my original post, there are likely some Dalish clans that are less accepting or even somewhat toxic towards people who choose not to procreate, whether for sexual orientation or personal reasons. However, I don’t think the fact that same-sex couples can’t have children of their own needs to be a problem for the Dalish in the attitude of “here is a thing you are biologically capable of doing but won’t” in a value comparison to heterosexual couple, unless the Keeper or clan MAKES it an issue. After all, there are several other things that a person might be capable of doing within a clan that they may choose not to do. A soft-hearted person who is capable of hunting might instead choose to concentrate their skills towards craftwork or study of elvhen history. The Dalish understand that one’s sexuality is part of one’s nature, just as a soft heart or aversion to killing is a part of that person’s nature. Now, some clans may try to force the issue and say, “You’re making a choice not to hunt when hunting is integral to our clan’s survival” and try to shame the person for not hunting when they’re capable of it. But logically, it makes more sense to work with the people within the clan to determine where a person might be best suited. It doesn’t help the clan to make people miserable unnecessarily. Actually, I would think that there would be more stigma attached to a heterosexual person who chose not to have children, since they are both biologically capable and it is within their sexuality to be capable of it.
And as you say, people are illogical and do thing ms that don’t always make sense, but it seems to me, at least, that the most successful clans would be the ones that give people roles within Dalish clan society that suit them best. A person who hates making things, no matter how capable they are of it, should probably not become the master craftsperson’s apprentice. A person who pales at the sight of blood, no matter how good they are with a bow and arrow, should probably not become a hunter. A person who has difficulty having sex with a gender other than their own should probably not be made to do that.
I would believe, since it’s already been established that Dalish clans trade people from time to time, that same-sex couples or homosexual/asexual individuals would be given the choice to move to other clans as needed. Say one clan is under populated and needs more people to make babies, essentially. Any couples or individuals who aren’t willing to force themselves to have children might be traded to another clan that is overpopulated, but needs more caretakers or someone with the same skill set as the homosexual/asexual/etc. people. This also has the added benefit of adding new blood to the clan. This is not to say that this kind of trading is always possible, or that there aren’t clans that are so insular that they reject even other Dalish. What I’m arguing for, rather, is a perspective where same-sex coupling isn’t a hindrance to a survival situation, but rather just another aspect to a person’s nature than has to be worked with to have a successful society.
And I didn’t say that people leaving the clan would be a frequent occurrence. Of course it would be extremely hard to leave your family, friends, and support structure. Some people might not choose to leave even an extreme case of oppression. However, we’re talking about a clan that is forcing the issue of having sex with people one isn’t attracted to, or otherwise face becoming a social outcast anyway. Some homosexual/asexual people might decide to make that sacrifice for the good of the clan and their species, but that is a major decision that is deeply rooted in one’s mental health. Forcing the issue would undoubtedly result in increased instances of depression, anxiety, and possible self harm. Which we see in those modern oppressive cultures you mentioned. Even if leaving the clan is a HUGE deal, so is forcing yourself to copulate with a person you don’t feel an attraction towards at the risk of your mental health.
Furthermore, Dalish elves in general would be more capable of leaving their oppressive society than anyone in modern oppressive societies, as they don’t necessarily need money to survive. Dalish elves can hunt and forage for themselves if they leave or are abandoned, as we see in-game in the cases of elves like Mihris and Dalish the Charger. While I’m sure that they would ideally like to stay with their family and friends, most Dalish will be capable of surviving on their own, and that might become an attractive option when faced with a life as a social outcast or forced procreation.
And I’m not sure if Russia or even the US is an accurate comparison to make, as Thedosian society is largely of the opinion that different sexualities shouldn’t be an issue. While Russia and the US suffer from heavy bigotry towards non-heterosexual people, Thedas doesn’t suffer from the same bigotry (Tevinter aside). As Weekes and a few other devs have said, being homosexual, for instance, is viewed as the same as someone liking apples but not oranges. The Dalish might think of a homosexual person as being selfish for not making the sacrifice of coupling with someone they don’t want to have sex with, that the person should want to make that sacrifice for the good of the clan/species. But I do think that there would be that acknowledgment that it IS a sacrifice. The Dalish would likely never get as bad as Russia or the US, because they aren’t bigoted against homosexual people. And I think that’s hard for us to imagine since we live in such a society that is so heteronormative at best and homophobic at worst. But if we take a moment to remove bigotry from the equation, we find that Dalish society - at the very least - would never be as oppressive as our modern societies are towards people of non-heterosexual orientations.
