LMK Theory Essay: Wukong was not actually the one who sent Macaque to the Underworld
From rewatching the show and especially its Shadowpeach scenes a few times, I've come to the conclusion that the showrunners purposefully presented the Shadowpeach Fight like an Ace Attorney case: things seem open-and-shut, but on closer inspection, the details unravel to a potentially grand turnabout.
By S5, the show leaves hints that Macaque's S3 montage-flashback of The Fight is false
By S5, we have three accounts of The Fight to examine: S2E7 (Shadow Play), S3E4 (The Winning Side), and S5E7 (Into the Pagoda).
Of the three flashbacks of The Fight, S3's is the most incongruous.
Let's compare:
S2E7 (Shadow Play)
Macaque's POV; no voiceovers
Visually: purple and yellow outlines on black
Vivid yellow silhouette indicating Wukong
Freeze frame of Macaque as purple on black, with one of him as a demonic and cackling skull
Shout out to @everlasting-shadow for these screencaps of the S2 flashback!
S3E4 (The Winning Side)
Macaque's POV; LBD narrating and Macaque's non-verbal voiceovers
Visually: series of quasi-stills with minimal movement; more expanded palette and textured as sketch renderings
Depicts Wukong relatively expressionless (mouth closed, barely frowning, eyes glowing golden) and Macaque with a yelling, determined face (irises visible and their normal colour)
Depicts Wukong wielding the golden staff (more on this later)
S5E7 (Into the Pagoda)
Wukong's POV; voiceovers from Shadowpeach
Visually: purple and yellow outlines on black
Vivid yellow silhouette indicating Wukong
Dialogue exchange has Wukong pleading Macaque stop with desperation; Macaque only cackles at him maniacally before shouting at Wukong's blow
While it should be self-evident at this point, it's worth highlighting the main discrepancies between S3E4's flashback and the other two:
Visual differences (in colour palette and presentation)
Characterisation differences in Wukong (his stoicness in S3's flashback VS his yelling desperation in the S5 flashback's voiceover)
Characterisation differences in Macaque (his determined expressions and gritted teeth showing presence of mind VS the purple-cackling-skull freeze frame in S2 and crescendoing cackling voiceover in S5)
Of the points to cash out, the one concerning Wukong's depiction is arguably the most interesting.
Consider the freeze frame of this animation used both in the S2E7 and S5E7 flashbacks – of a silhouette of Wukong with his trademark peach mask and, more subtly, his phoenix feather crown.
Screenshot courtesy of @everlasting-shadow!
The reuse of this animation is significant as S2E7's flashback was from Macaque's POV and S5E7's is from Wukong's – its repetition explicitly shows it being in both Macaque and Wukong's memories, thus corroborating it. It's then safe to say that this event, i.e. Wukong attacking Macaque in the eye, actually did happen.
However, the most important contradiction that animation poses to S3's flashback is the silhouette of Wukong's fists. Specifically, his fist reared back to attack Macaque in the eye.
Wukong is not holding his staff.
The silhouette of Wukong's claw is curled up in a fist, his 'knuckles' facing the camera. If he were wielding his staff, it would appear near-horizontally, i.e. incredibly obviously, to the viewer. His fist is also not drawn in such a way that he's plunging a staff into Macaque's eye. Either way, if a staff were present, it would be visible.
Recall as well that this animation occurred in both Macaque and Wukong's flashbacks. This means that, unless proven otherwise:
Wukong did not land his blow on Macaque's eye using his staff.
But you've seen the theories and Shadowpeach fanfiction – plenty of people believe that Wukong gouged Macaque's eye with his staff.
I put forth that this was a deliberately engineered misconception. Or, as Wukong likes to say dramatically, misdirection.
I believe the showrunners purposefully made that golden Wukong animation extremely short-lived – a literal blink-and-you-miss-it – so that they could put two other red herrings could take front and centre:
Making MK mirror Wukong's pose (which incited Macaque to have the flashback) while MK wields the staff and Macaque obviously blocks it from hitting his eye [S2E7]
Showing a much clearer montage of a stern-to-expressionless Wukong wielding his staff in two separate stills: staving off Macaque's own shadow staff and when he rises from behind a defeated Macaque [S3E4]
The presentation of moment (1), especially in combination with Macaque's action and dialogue (blocking it right over his damaged eye, his remark "You really are just that bit too much like him") reinforces the impression that, since MK just reminded Macaque heavily of Wukong, that Wukong must have attacked him in the same manner. However, that falls apart upon closer inspection of that Wukong-silhouette sequence.
As for moment (2), that jars with the fact that the S2E7 and S5E7 flashbacks, which match up far more closely, contradict the flashback in which (2) occurs.
So, we have a contradiction in flashbacks, with S3E4's as the sore thumb. However, the matter of fact remains that that contradictory flashback was shown as having happened – as if Macaque was recalling his memories.
But Macaque also had the much more visceral flashback in S2E7, which is corroborated far better by Wukong's in S5E7.
What is the takeaway here?
A third party tampered with Macaque.
Consider these exchanges Macaque had in S5:
S5E9: Sacrifice
Xiangliu: Oho, that was quite a trick! That power. Who gave that to you? Who'd you make a deal with?
Macaque: A deal...?
With S5E9's exchange, the viewer is introduced to the possibility that Macaque has interacted with a third party, specifically to obtain considerable power—one that Macaque neither confirms nor denies.
This possibility turns very likely once we see in S5E10 (Harbinger) that Macaque's signature black-purple shadow powers are erratically infected into black-orange Chaotic powers.
By the end of the episode, Macaque also notices those same Chaotic powers electrifying the staff (which, perhaps not so incidentally, is also the object of contradiction in his flashbacks).
With the prominent implications in mind that Macaque, through some third party or external influence, has been infected or influenced by Chaotic power, recall this Shadowpeach exchange:
S5E1: Strings That Bind
Macaque: We have no idea who freed Azure from the Scroll. Are your old companions just—here again!? And you just—!
Wukong: What about you!? You just—come back, just—!
Macaque: (groans in exasperation)
This exchange here is interesting for multiple reasons.
First, it foreshadows a question that S5E9's exchange makes even more contentious: what happened when Macaque returned from the Underworld to the realm of the living?
Note once more that Macaque neither confirms nor denies anything about Wukong's question, implied or otherwise. What we do know of his revival is from the S3E4 flashback – the viewer is shown Lady Bone Demon freeing Macaque and subjecting him to her conditions.
However, as this analysis has already shown, S3E4's account of The Fight is unreliable.
Importantly, there is nothing to indicate that the rest of that same account, covering Macaque's return to the living, should be taken as more reliable.
It's fair to say that the circumstances of how Macaque returned to the living is, at this point in time pre-S6, an open question.
Second, and most interesting of all, the exchange brings up another question:
How much does Wukong actually know of Macaque's circumstances?
On the face of it, given S5E1's Shadowpeach interaction above, Wukong doesn't know how Macaque returned. Again, this is left an open question—one that Macaque, characteristically, is not prone to talking about for his own reasons, given his habits of being cryptic (S4 Special: The Emperor's Wrath) as well as sardonically self-aware about his habit.
S2E7: Shadow Play
Macaque: Sometimes you just gotta talk it out, y'know? D— I don't really do it. Maybe I should. But we'd be here all day, so—
On this matter, I think it is extremely valuable to examine Wukong's characterisation thus far as a point of comparison.
Wukong is shown as having a reliable memory and vocal awareness of how he has put away his enemies.
His exchanges with the Lady Bone Demon ("You should've stayed buried." it's so peak i ain't even gonna cite it ykyk), his regret of ever having kept her alive, and recalling how he didn't need extra power the last time he defeated her, showcase his confidence in his memory and his lack of hesitation voicing it.
Above all, Wukong's interaction with Azure—one of the old companions who mysteriously came back and is brought up in the S5E1 Shadowpeach exchange—is, I feel, the most enlightening to cover.
S4 Special: The Emperor's Wrath
Azure: [...] It's the whole reason I'm here at all!
Wukong: Wait, how are you here?
Azure: What!? What kind of question is that—you know exactly how I—
Wukong: No, here and now! I put you in the Underworld myself! How'd you get out? How'd you get the Scroll? I know for sure you didn't steal it... You couldn't have.
Wukong confirms it explicitly: he put Azure in the Underworld himself. This is not up for debate—it's what set the foundations of the mess of contradictions of Azure's return and how he obtained the Scroll of Memory. It also falls in line of how Wukong has not only a good memory of how he handled the Lady Bone Demon before, but also declares his memories regarding her previous defeat unabashedly.
So, given Wukong's behaviour regarding Lady Bone Demon and Azure, we have a baseline for how Wukong (1) recalls with good clarity how he defeats his enemies and (2) how open he is with his memory and treats it as reliable evidence.
Wukong's baseline behaviour when remembering defeating his adversaries directly contrasts how he is about Macaque's disappearance and return.
In S5E7, after being freed by Macaque from his flashback of the fight, Wukong is also shown quickly scrubbing a tear from his eye. However, when asked by Macaque about it, albeit cynically ("Fun memory?"), Wukong is not open about it ("No, what—what was that thing?").
Taking these in combination with his halting exchange with Macaque in S5E1 ("What about you!? You just—come back, just—!"), we have another discrepancy to deal with.
Wukong's typical certainty about his memory and incapacitating his enemies, including a former sworn brother, is entirely absent when it comes to Macaque.
The only thing we do hear from the usually confident, outspoken Monkey King about Macaque—the only sign we have to go off of about his awareness of Macaque's circumstances—is that he 'came back'.
No mention from where. And, given his frustrated and pointedly unusual stammering, likely with no idea of why or how.
But, by this point, we know Macaque leaving him is established as a sore point for Wukong in their argument in his Scroll of Memory ("Just run off like you always do!").
The most we can be certain about what Wukong knows is that, for him, Macaque—at some point—left him.
How does this bear on theory, then, that Wukong was not the one who sent Macaque to the Underworld?
One of the main points I hope to have made clear by now is this: if Wukong knows (or at least thinks he knows) something, he will show certainty. It stands to reason that if he doesn't know something (and is not trying to bluff about it), he won't show certainty. It is very likely that Wukong, at most, only knows that Macaque left him, but not that he was sent to the Underworld.
There is another point I want to make in support of this theory – bear with me as it takes some more elaboration.
For someone who supposedly knew he sent Macaque to his death, Wukong acts far too petty to him pre-S4.
As the show has repeatedly emphasised in establishing Monkey King's character, Wukong immensely values being immortal because of his driving fear of death. Macaque himself explicates this for the viewer.
S4 Special: The Emperor's Wrath
Macaque: [Wukong] always felt he had to be stronger. More immortal. He was so terrified of mortality. Went so far as to take his name out of the Book of the Dead. But even that wasn't enough.
Coupled with the running references to Wukong's immortality in the earlier seasons and him reveling in it ("If these things didn't make me immortal, they'd literally kill me!" "Why? A little water never hurt no— Ooh, right! Mortality."; "Spacesuits are for dorky mortals."; ), it suffices to say that he cares a lot about staying alive.
Moreover, Wukong wants the people he cares about to avoid death ("You guys have this thing called mortality" and the whole arc of him leaving MK alone to prepare for and face Lady Bone Demon himself).
Of course, as shown with Azure, Wukong is not above placing his enemies in the Underworld or the equivalent. Even when Demon Bull King returns from being trapped under the mountain by Wukong's hand, it can be inferred that he was, in fact, dead.
Pilot Special: Monkie Kid: A Hero is Born
DBK: Flesh... Bone... I have returned to the realm of the living!
As a slight but related sidebar, in the case of DBK, whose return Wukong witnessed in the form of a monkey-tailed bird, Wukong is remarkably nonchalant, leaving handling him and his family's destruction of the city fully to MK. This contrasts to how he is agitated and intervenes directly into Macaque stealing MK's powers – of course, Wukong had multiple reasons to intervene, but his attitude towards Macaque of general vindictiveness ("Ugh! Are you ever gonna get sick of living in my shadow!?") is a far cry from his casualness towards DBK's violence and antagonism.
The point of Wukong's vindictiveness towards Macaque, though, is a good segue back to the main argument: Wukong's pettiness towards Macaque pre-S4 is too out of place if he were actually aware he killed Macaque.
Of course, Wukong does not consider Macaque someone to care about in S1 to S3. Even at the beginning of S5, post-Scroll of Memory and peach popsicle passing, he snaps at Macaque of trying to help after being "a villain five minutes ago".
It's apparent from Wukong's meanness to Macaque, most evident in his barbs in S3 as Macaque is tracking them down, that he holds a particular resentment for Macaque that he does not hold for any other antagonist in the show. He's downright jovial about DBK in comparison, teases Spider Queen, only keeps things ruthless with LBD, and only makes the most of irritating Azure with cheeky antics as opposed to being outright petty.
However, given what we know of Wukong's fear of death and that he is aware of his and Macaque's long history, it does not make sense that Wukong would act as petty as he does while knowing he killed Macaque.
Famously, Wukong is shown to have forgotten himself when it comes to Macaque. But, his endless drive for power and, particularly, immortality, was out of a desire to protect the people he cares about. Specifically Macaque.
S4 Special: The Emperor's Wrath
Wukong: I just wanted to protect the people I cared about. To be strong enough...
[A golden projection of a past Wukong appears, followed by one of a past Macaque]
Wukong: I lost sight of why I was doing any of it. I know I made a few lifetimes' worth of mistakes, but...living them over and over again like this, I...
Here, Wukong admits to forgetting the initial reason why he pursued so much power – in the Scroll of Memory's flashback, Macaque shows some awareness in his chat with Wukong under the tree that Wukong enjoys the idea of being the strongest.
But I want to take care to highlight that this does not mean Wukong entirely forgot about Macaque, or repressed his memories to do with him so strongly as to basically have forgotten about him. As evidenced by the S3 Finale and S5E2, both Wukong and Macaque remember enough of their past that they can coordinate without words – that is the depths to which they know each other. Recall as well that their wordless communication in the S3 Finale happens before Wukong is trapped in the Scroll of Memory.
And, as the Ink Demon momentarily taunts Wukong with before trapping him, it is clear that Wukong does, beneath his pettiness thus far, care deeply for Macaque.
Of course, for reasons of screen time, narrative pacing, and so forth, MK, Macaque, and thus the viewer do not bear witness to all of the memories Wukong must have torn through to try to find a way out before being overwhelmed. So, though it is arguably telling that the memory of the Fight is not shown in what is essentially a highlight reel of Wukong's "few lifetimes' worth of mistakes" that mostly centre around Macaque, there isn't too much to go off of the fact that The Fight is not covered in that segment.
That being said, it is sensible to infer that Wukong relived his significant regrets in the Scroll, most of which focus on Macaque, and stayed to watch them unfold. You'll notice that the replays of Wukong's earliest memories in the segment cut off and rewind to the beginning very soon after they begin, indicating Wukong tore through the memory rapidly after the memory started. That same cut-off-and-rewind does not happen to the memories we see of Wukong and Macaque, including their one of their fight beneath Five Phases Mountain.
Despite being good with his memories usually, Wukong lingers considerably in his memories with Macaque. Ones that, given his overwhelm by the time MK and Macaque find him, cause him a lot of emotional pain (recall him scrubbing a tear after S5E7's flashback).
Of course, Wukong was happy to fight off Macaque and not check on his well-being in S1 to S3. However, that isn't the same as being so driven as to make sure Macaque is dead again like how Wukong did with LBD. Even while taunting Macaque as LBD's lackey, Wukong doesn't go out of his way to try to end or fight Macaque in the same manner. (A potentially interesting point of comparison is how he fights the Mayor, who is a true lackey of LBD's, whereas Wukong insists on the gang running away from Macaque instead of facing him).
Again, this is a subtle point I want to make about the incongruity of Wukong's behaviour.
Given Wukong's fear of death, his want to protect those he cares about, and him acting in a way that shows he remembers Macaque and has known him for a long time, including their history, it does not make sense he would both be aware he killed Macaque and be relentlessly petty like in S1 and S3
For Wukong's pettiness to make sense, it would have to be that, for the particular way in which Macaque wronged him:
Wukong knowingly sent him to the Underworld for it,
the grudge would warrant, upon Macaque's mysterious return, vindictive jabs about Macaque's inferiority ("Oh, good, I thought it was somebody important." "You always did give a sidekick kinda vibe." "On brand for you to have a worse version of everyone else's powers.")
not inspire Wukong to bother or want to expend true effort to incapacitate him (cf. Azure) or straight up end him (cf. LBD).
That is a particular cocktail of behaviours that, given Wukong's character, does not make sense.
And, unless I'm just limited in my creativity, I can't conceive of a type of wrong Macaque, or anyone, could do that would make that combination of behaviours make sense. It especially doesn't gel with someone of Wukong's nature, who employs his craftiness and strength mainly to protect the people he cares about. What would make sense, in combination with the other points about Wukong being not nearly as outspoken or direct as he otherwise always is about the villains he puts away, is that Wukong, to the best of his knowledge, did not put Macaque in the Underworld.
In summary:
On closer inspection, Macaque's S3 flashback of The Fight contradicts his own and Wukong's account of The Fight
Macaque was tampered with down to his magic by Chaos
Wukong, usually vocal about his memories of taking down his enemies, says nothing about taking down Macaque
The only thing Wukong does express about Macaque's circumstances is that Macaque, for unknown and unstated reasons, 'came back'
Wukong's established behaviour and characterisation means him knowingly putting Macaque in the Underworld doesn't make sense
Alternative considerations
Because I just like being thorough.
The planted memories are actually the S2 and S5 flashbacks, not the S3 one
This would require both Macaque and Wukong having been tampered with in some way.
This is possible considering
Macaque was tampered with in some way
The staff, previously having belonged to Wukong, and MK, born from the same stone as Wukong, are both shown to be linked to Chaos
Wukong showing a strange lack of questioning not only about Macaque, but also about accepting MK so quickly, which Macaque explicitly called out, and even Azure's appearance in the S4 special.
However, this alternative version of events would not controvert the overarching argument I make: Wukong was not actually the one who sent Macaque to the Underworld (or, at least, the one behind it).
Ok so it's basically confirmed Macaque is going to be important for the next season considering dear Nine gave him so much attention, especially when you consider the ending shot is him noticing the chaos magic on the staff.
As for why he is important it's basically been confirmed that Mac's shadow magic is strange and in the finally we see it turn into chaos magic. Now, it's implied by Nine that Macaque would have needed to make a deal for this power, but Macaque has no clue what he's talking about which leads me to two theories.
And no I don't think it was the LBD's doing as he's had these powers long before her so no, I think either Mac was born in the chaos realm and somehow made it to this reality OR and this is my personal headcanon, Macaque was made by the "he" Nine referenced before departing in the finally. As to who this being is I have no idea but he is likely a figure of either equal or greater power to Nuwa, who then made Macaque to fulfill a purpose, similarly to how MK and Sun Wukong were.
As for what that purpose is who knows maybe it was to be his eyes and ears in this reality considering in the book Macaque had the ability to hear the past and future, or maybe it was to kill Wukong and Mk since they were Nuwa's sacrifices, we have no idea as this being is likely a creature of chaos so perhaps he had no reason and just wanted to see what would happen, but it's likely going to play a big part next season.
You see, I totally get Macaque. I, too, understand worshiping someone as akin to God. As putting them far above yourself. Centering them in your life. Doing what they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted. Supporting every decision. Taking care of anything they told you to. Being another tool at their disposal, being so trained and ready that all it takes was a micoexpression, and you're already jumping to do as they want. You as an extension of them, barely a different person at this point. You gave them your whole self.
They were God. And then an outside force tears them from their godlike pedestal. Takes their power. Makes them like you.
And yet, you still are there for them. Because you love them. But suddenly, you're not suffering enough. They are punished for their behavior, but you're not. They lash out. And finally- finally, you bite back. You offered them your love, even when they failed. You would still be there for them, and they drive you off. You would have been normal with them. You were just happy to be at their side. You would have supported them till your death and then beyond.
You loved them.
And then later, you discover that they took your offered love and acceptance of their fallen self from someone else. Someone that required they fall even further away from their greatness.
Why do you think s4 lmk is sometimes seen as a drop-off in writing quality compared to earlier seasons?
IS IT REALLY. That's so funny, I personally think s4 elevated lmk's writing to unbelievably high levels. It recontextualized previous seasons in ways that cemented my faith in lmk's writing team, and proved to me that this wasn't just going to be good, it was going to be GREAT, an honest to god masterpiece.
I find that the more complex the writing, when things like love and devotion aren't put into "good" or "bad" boxes, when characters are hypocrites and things develop in a way people don't like (it doesn't make them "feel good" but the writing itself is solid), that's when people start to say things like "the writing's gotten worse". I've seen plenty of takes for characters like Wukong and Viren (from The Dragon Prince), where folks want to boil down the mess and the complexity into "the writers don't know how to write this character," when the truth is the opposite. Sometimes, characters say one thing and do another and that's on purpose, thank you. Sometimes, characters mean well and have good intentions, but they still suck. Writing like that is fucking awesome.
(Big Owl House rant incoming, turn back now if you're not interested in that)
It's not really a surprise to me that something like The Owl House, where the characters are fairly one note and everything is said out loud and the themes are much more simplistic, is/was far more popular. Obviously, I don't want to shame anyone or make people feel bad for loving toh—like it's great if you love it, keep doing that—but I do think that objectively, toh has pretty weak writing (which honestly doesn't/doesn't have to determine how much you love it).
I was discussing this with a few friends last night, how with toh, the implications are hardly thought through, and characters aren't viewed beyond the role they can serve in the episode or the arc. Like, I think of the beginning of Hollow Mind, where King says "No one wants to believe they've spent their life following the wrong person", which is fine, it's something that could be interesting given the proper execution, but when you analyze it deeper, try to find the consistent character thread...it doesn't make any actual sense for King or the development he went through at the beginning of s2. Had he said something along the lines of "No one wants to believe they've spent their life following a lie", now THAT ties directly into the lie he believed for his whole life, and to King as a character. But that's not what happened, and that's never what happened in toh.
Even with Belos, the main villain, it's clear the writers wanted Grim Walker angst for Hunter, but they didn't want to explore the implications of Belos recreating his brother over and over again. So at that point, it's like...why not just have Hunter be adopted? Why have him be a grimmwalker at all if it's not something we're going to explore deeper on Belos' end?
Needless to say, lmk isn't like that. If a character has dialogue or a scene, it's going to contribute to our perception of them and their internal motivations. If Pigsy is worried about his relation to his ancestors in s4, and what that says about him, we can actually trace that back to 2x04: tradition matters to Pigsy, and it's a huge part of his heart, identity, and life. Of COURSE Pigsy is affected when he learns his ancestor was someone he doesn't like, someone who tried to eat the love of his life. He even tries to comfort MK with what he thinks is a shared experience, and it's AGH. It's so good
If something is established in lmk, it's expanded upon. Hell, even the Mayor of all characters was given his own spotlight outside of LBD. He even has a direct parallel to Azure—following and giving service to an Emperor before becoming disillusioned and changing loyalty to the person that will bring about real change: their Lady and their King.
Anyways,
I went on a super long tangent. I can't truly know why some people think of lmk s4 as a drop-off in writing quality, but those are some thoughts from me to you!
About macky having to "move on" I also joked about that like girl get up please, but when I think about it I realize that not even I could get over it, even if Wukong hurt Macaque, Macaque also hurt Wukong, we all know that so to the point.
What catches my attention is that when you think about the story they had in their youth it makes sense, wukong himself shouted to macaque that everything he did was for them, and more than once he repeated that they would be able to be together forever like "as they always wanted" at peace as a fact, adding that to the hundreds of thousands of years they spent together.
And with their fight It wasn't even a closure to their relationship at that moment, it was with Macaque's death, there were so many things left to say and so much to process (the death and the anger, the fights etc) , only for Macaque to return with the only thing in mind being that he needs to get revenge on Wukong (for obvious reasons) so he comes back and tries to get revenge,he fails. Even in the moments of the show where Macaque is not actively trying to get revenge on Wukong, he still calls him, makes fun of him, hits him where he knows it hurts. And that goes hand in hand with 2 things
One is Macaque's need to get Wukong's attention, Macaque is seen trying to get Wukong to treat him seriously without holding back in fights, seeing that Wukong focuses more on protecting the kid is almost as if it offends him, they are not friends anymore but Wukong doesn't even consider him as an adversary? He can't let that go, Wukong owes him this! He caused his death and now he doesn't even face it when he didn't hold back before?At least give this some real closure! (macky pov)
Two is Wukong does not want to see Macaque, he does not want him around, and since Macaque knows how to get under his skin, Wukong attacks with even harsher answers so that he understands, "You are nothing to me and I don't want you to mess with me, go away" Wukong obviously must have reasons for acting like this, whether it be not being able to deal with Macaque's death or something that Macaque did to him (or Wukong did) to push him away ...and rightly so! macaque is one of the bad ones! he abandoned wukong, attacked mk and the others, allied himself with lbd and won't leave him alone! (Wu pov)
Idk those were my thoughts about them in the first seasons, I feel like at the beginning Macaque was a ghost from the past who tormented Wukong whenever he could. And macaque not leaving wukong alone for this same reason, if he can't kill him then let him be a walking reminder of his past (he's petty like that yk let's say that ignoring that may bothers him to be ignored ). For the most recent seasons the change is felt and is caused by how Macaque's perspective on Wukong changed. As for Wukong, I think it's safe to say that with so many ghosts from his past returning and Macaque HELPING and not showing signs of being a recent threat (and the fact that they used to live together so mac still has rights to the house unfortunately) he couldn't make many protests with macaque staying on the mountain, Mostly the change is caused by Macaque's attitude and his reflection regarding Wukong, besides that yes, I feel that Macaque really had to process everything again because bro wdym my ex situationship of thousands of years just looked at me for motivation in his worst moment and he gave me a peach popsicle? holyshit-
SO to the point I think there was a reason for macaque to being around wukong (piss him off basically) but with this new information about what type of person and intentions Wukong has and how he has changed, those reasons also changed. And macaque and wukong will say all they want but "I did it for us" meant something pretty big if it meant "I did it for us, I fought against the heavens and looked for ways to make myself more immortal to protect you and our home so no one else It would bother us never again and we would live in peace forever." Yeah… I don't think it will be easy to move on (for none of them, Macademia lives with it and doesn't cope very well, Wukong avoids it like the plague and doesn't cope very well, Macaron through teasing puts it in wukong's face so that he can afrom it/him, Wukong doesn't/can't do it)
Season 5 side note : It's not until this season that we see them both show that they still care (without any pretext or excuse behind)
It's always the ying yang situation with them....although that cannot excuse the fact that macaque continues to be a simp 😞/J
LAST SIDE NOTE : We don't know how much time passed from when macaque died to when he was revived, so the difference in time they had to process can also affect their attitudes. (English isn't my first language I'm so sorry)
anon this is the perfect analysis 😍 no notes so well done chef’s kiss
LMK is pretty wishy-washy on whether the Monkie Kids are descendants or reincarnations of the JTTW pilgrims, often flip-flopping between the terms. The actual answer? It's a mix, but they haven't clarified. Here's a quick-and-dirty guide based on show canon:
Pigsy and Mei: Descendants. Mei's heritage as a direct descendant of Ao Lie is a central part of her character. Pigsy's link to Zhu Bajie isn't explicit, but Pigsy's family (recipes "passed down through generations") is a central part of Sweet N' Sour, and Zhu Bajie's status as a cook allows easy extrapolation. They may be reincarnations as well, accounting for their deja vu in The Samadhi Fire.
Tang: Reincarnation. Buddhist monks, famously, do not have sex. There is no mention of Tang's family but the Golden Cicada - heralding the unlocking of Tang's powers - appears in season 3, clarifying that Tang, like Sanzang, is the next reincarnation of Golden Cicada.
Sandy: Unknown. His family is never shown nor is there proof of reincarnation. He may even be the original Sha Wujing, owing to his flashback in To Catch a Leaf. It stands to reason that a river demon would live as long as the river does, but this doesn't explain the (inconsistent) difference in hair color, Wukong treating him like a stranger, or Mo.
MK: Neither. We can be reasonably confident SWK didn't hook up with anyone. Speaking of, SWK is still alive, so MK is not a reincarnation. Oddly, MK seems to be associated with the underworld (a sticker depicting him as the skull in a skull-and-crossbones in Pig Pong Panic, his eyes glowing blue in Minor Scale) and possibly born or even constructed out of a stone (The monkey statue & stone cracking in S4). Just what are you, MK...?
LMK mandarin dub (and how characters address eachother) ; an old and. mostly unfinished project I was working on a bit ago. only got mk & mei, alongside past swk & macaque
mk (qi xiaotian) calls mei (long xiaojiao) her full name, and she does the same inversely. I did not find any notable exceptions, but to be honest I did not look very hard. if anyone is interested in seeing how they call eachother in specific episodes or whatever ; send me an ask and I'm open to looking. but I don't feel like combing every single episode to try and find them aimlessly.
my full notes on past macaque (liu'er mihou) and monkey king (sun wukong) via the flashbacks in the season four special. notably, I've yet to go through the flashback in season four episode two yet. I can only talk about part one of the special.
peach tree segment :
- Sun Wukong greats Liu'er Mihou (swk and lmh will be used as shortenings henceforth.) with his full name. followed quickly by Xiongdi/兄弟. literally composed of the characters for Elder Brother and Younger Brother - used as 'bro,' sort of. it's a way men call close friends/comrades. notably doesn't denote that one or the other is older or younger.*
* age and respect is like. a really big deal in chinese culture. really really big. I'm assuming everyone in the brotherhood refers to eachother as XiongDi to denote that they see themselves as on equal standing. though don't quote me (I'm not an expert; I did most of this post in. january. and stuff like this can get confusing when it comes to immortals)
- lmh greets swk as 'Hou Wang Bixia'/猴王陛下 - [pronoun] majesty, the monkey king. the pronoun in question is between his majesty, your majesty, my majesty. pretty sure this is translated as 'my king' in the english dub, so I'm leaning towards my majesty. the way swk reacts ('come on, don't be like that! eat some fruit, enjoy the sunshine!') as well as how he delivers it can make it very safe to assume this is not a sincere term of address on lmh's half.
mountain segment :
-lmh greets swk as xiongdi. when swk replies, swk calls lmh his full name.
-when lmh rants at swk for his inability to consider others, he calls him Sun Dasheng/孫大聖 - great sage sun. intended to highlight his arrogance within context. also, with consideration, I personally believe to put an emotional distance. (pretty sure he says 'great sage wukong' sarcastically within the dub, or something of the ilk, which is rather close to it's like. tonal goal. though it is missing the fact lmh calls swk by his last name, a rare occurance in mandarin. from observation I think it's usually only to show. really high respect? don't quote me though.) it's a variant shortening of his full title, Qitian Dasheng (great sage equal to heaven.)
* notably, lmh does not call swk a demon/variant of demon at any point, which is contrary to the english dub. shortly before calling swk sun dasheng, he says exactly - "你已经着了魔" ; which can be translated as 'you are possessed,' but I'd say it's closer to other translations like you're obsessed/you're obsessive.
I'm, ironically, struggling to find the mandarin dub of season four (I remember having literally the exact opposite problem around this time last year but you know. life goes that way sometimes.) when I do find it, though, I'll be quick to note it down ; though I don't think they directly address eachother in that. so.
mostly this was a pet project for. me. I realized it was actually really hard to find people who noted this stuff down and I was like. hey you know what. why not. though due to extenuating circumstances I ended up too busy to finish it ; I still thought what I already had was pretty interesting. though I don't really go into as much detail as I could have, as I was assuming I'd be noting a lot more character dynamics in this post than I did
"The repeat history" thing this fandom is annoying,like have you guys once thought that maybe the parallels are saying Mei an mk are opposite of wukong and macaque past relationship,they way healthier and they comfort each other in their time of need and communicate with each other,their friendship is "we can fixs this together"
Stop reducing Mei and mk relationship to what macaque and wukong once had (hasn't got the full story just macaque side not wukong yet) . It completely slipped you're guys brains about how Mei and mk friendship is in cannon.
