You said: Hakkai and Shiro are other examples of characters called ‘mom-friend’.
--I can see Hakkai being the ‘mom-friend’, though I wasn’t involved in the fandom long enough to really notice it. I’m not into Voltron enough to know much about Shiro as a ‘mom-friend’, but I’ve never thought of him in that way, because I always see him shipped with Allura, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a straight-shipped person referred to as ‘mom’ or ‘dad’ (whichever is opposite to their gender), though my not having seen it means little.
That leads me to ask, do you find the ‘mom-friend’ trope equally harmful to both male and female characters? Or is it specifically to male characters, for likening them to a stereotypical female? If so, does that... apply also to female characters referred to as ‘dad-friend’? (Again, something I haven’t really seen, but I’m sure it happens.)
(And what about real people referring to themselves as ‘mom-friend’?)
You said: The trope glorifies the existence of damaging gender roles.
-- I don’t have much more to say to this than is covered in the next section.
You said: male character shows empathy and is then likened to the feminine, and that reflects toxic masculinity. Suddenly he doesn’t fit the male image, but instead has to be somewhat feminine. This kind of attitude stops men from expressing their emotions.
-- I agree, empathetic male characters are often reduced to being feminine, which is obviously not good because any reasonable person knows men should be allowed to express emotion, etc. Saying that he suddenly doesn’t fit the male image... I guess I’m a littttle unclear about that one. I get it, I think? But to me that seems to depend largely on what the reader/whatever thinks “the male image” means. I get that the standard or stereotypical male image is... well, you know how it is, but I guess I’m seeing a little bit of a disconnect in these points. Empathetic --> feminine. Sure, I see that. Kind of arbitrary, like most gender stuff, but sure. Feminine --> not male. I... see that, but I don’t feel it, I suppose. I don’t know why guys can’t have feminine traits. I see that it’s a common thought though. And then, I guess what you’re saying is that if men feel that showing empathy makes them girly, they won’t do it? I understand that. But to me that seems like a problem with men’s disdain for femininity, so, like... to me it feels like the problem is not just that empathy = feminine, but that feminine = bad.
(Ultimately, I don’t think we’re disagreeing here, it’s just some of the finer points which are a bit foggy, particularly regarding how we ought to deal with that toxic masculinity. To over-simplify it: you suggest that we stop referring to empathy as feminine. (Not an unreasonable solution.) I suggest that we help men realize it’s okay to be ‘feminine’ (whatever that means). (Hopefully also not an unreasonable solution.) Both rely a little heavily on semantics, which means by my own rules I should stop arguing about it.)
You said: using this trope often makes writers reduce a character to stereotypes.
-- I can’t really disagree with this at all. That’s certainly true, although it will depend largely on the writer’s skill, and the reader’s interpretation. I hope I’m above it, but that would be for my readers to decide.
((The following paragraph is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of your original post, but I’m leaving it anyway. If it’s NOT a misunderstanding and that is infact what you meant, please let me know.))
You said: mom-friend/dad-friend ships create an unhealthy power imbalance.
-- I guess I don’t see this one at all. I don’t know if I just don’t understand what you mean, or if it’s a difference in my perception. Who in this case has the upper hand? The ‘mom’ because they are the overbearing one? Or the ‘dad’ because men have more power? I’m not a parent yet, but I am a married woman, and I’ve never thought of ‘mom/dad’ as having a power imbalance. It... doesn’t make sense to me. I’m really tilting my head at this one. I just feel like you made a huge leap between ‘mom/dad’ ships and abuse, and I feel like I’m really missing something.
Okay, unless I misunderstood you entirely and what you meant was that ‘mom’ character (OR ‘dad’ character) is often shipped with ‘child’ character which is inherently abusive??? Now that I can see, definitely. To me that’s not even something I think about because I practically never ship those kinds of ships.
See now, the first time I read this post, I was coming at this section from an entirely different viewpoint, but now I think I see what you mean, particularly using Gladio/Prompto as an example. I get that, with Gladio being accepted as a ‘dad’ character, and Prompto typically being a ‘child’ character. Right. I don’t like the ship much myself, although I suppose it could be okay if they did away with the representation of the characters as ‘dad’ and ‘child’. *shrug*
So, one of your problems with the ‘mom-friend’ trope is that they’re often shipped with ‘child-friend’. I get that. I don’t like it either. But I’ve never considered that as being really relevant to the trope because it’s not something I take part in. I guess I tend to think of ‘mom-friend’ more in terms of like ‘half of a pair with dad-friend’ than ‘has any sort of specific relationship with child-friend’. (Even though, yeah, that is sort of the definition of a mom.)
You said: (and I’m quoting this time) 😳 ‘Admire me?’ 😳 Why would you do that? 😳 I’m honestly a badly put together mess. Nothing to admire here. 😝
-- Oh psshaw. Of course I admire you. You’re a good writer, you’re funny, and you seem like a good person, not to mention clearly intelligent! And on a fandom level, I feel like you’ve put more detailed thought into a lot of things (FFXV-related, especially), so I feel it’s only natural to defer to you in regards to these.
You said: Does the way I write Ignis fall into any of the pitfalls you described? (does he get feminised or appear weak for being caring? does he come across as more nagging and annoying than in canon? does he respect other characters’ agency and autonomy or not? and if not, is it acknowledged as problematic at some point in the story? etc.).
--- Honestly: I don’t know entirely. I mean, I can look at them individually:
-- Appear weak for being caring: no, I don’t think so
-- More nagging or annoying than canon: maybe, but if so it’s because of the circumstances in the AU.
-- Respect others’ agency and autonomy: to a degree that I think is warranted by the circumstances.
-- If not, is it acknowledged? : I plan to acknowledge his lapses in ‘respecting others’ agency’. (Though I haven’t written nearly that far. That’s end-of-story stuff and woah am I ever not close to that yet.)
BUT!!!
-- Is he feminised? : This I don’t know, because I don’t know what’s considered feminised. If he is, I don’t think it’s because he is caring.
I like your suggestions that he could assess his own identity in regards to masculinity, but I’m not sure I’ll touch on that much in this particular story... Well actually, I probably will a little, but I imagine he’ll push it aside as being unimportant in comparison to.. the other stuff that’s happening. *shugs loosely* tbh I’m still in the planning process of anything past the first 1/10th.
THANKS very much for writing this post, and being open to discussing things like this. After my first read-through of it, I was fairly stressed because I thought we were disagreeing a lot, but the process of writing a response has (I think) given me a better understanding of what you wrote. Now, it seems that we may actually agree more than I originally thought, and hopefully we’ll be able to explain any remaining differences. (If you’re interested.)
<3
