#prong collars

[shadythetortie]

Are prong collars cruel? I would never use one on my dog but has seen people saying they helped with their dog training...

Depends on the person you ask. This can turn into a heated debate with many dog people. Personally I feel that using punishment as training tools such as shock collars or prong collars is barbaric and out dated, and dogs respond so much better to positive reinforcement training.

Most people are using them under the idea that the prongs will stop the dog from pulling on their walks or give them better control over the dog. The biggest problem is that 90% of the time, they arent using them for their intended purpose. Prong collars are meant to be correctional - meaning they are only really in use when correcting a behaviour. They are NOT supposed to be left on unless you are training or on a walk, and they are definitely not supposed to be pulled on. These collars are designed to provide 'even pressure all the way around the neck' and many people claim it doesn't hurt the dog. It does. Put one around your arm or leg and pull on it - they're still pointy and they still hurt.

The issue with this kind of reinforcement is that it does NOT teach the animal to do the proper behaviour. What it does is teach the animal to avoid the wrong behaviour so they dont get hurt. Shock collars, prong collars, spray bottles on cats - its all the same. They often revert back to doing the bad behaviours like pulling on the leash as soon as the collar is off. Cats that know you will spray them with water if they jump onto the counter will wait until you aren't around and still jump up. Dogs that know the shock collar hurts when they bark will wait until its off, and then bark again.

Positive reinforcement training is the best thing out there. It teaches your pet to do behaviours because they want to do them, and because they know they will get a reward. Its much easier to train your dog that if they focus on you on their walks, they get treats, rather than try to force them not to pull by using pain and pressure on their neck. Its similar to spanking children - its painful and they dont learn anything from it except that if you arent around (or in this case if the collar isnt on) then their behaviour doesn't get punished.

When I was in tech school, we got all of the SPCA dogs to work on. Part of our AHT course was dog training - we had to use clickers and positive reinforcement to teach good behaviours. Most SPCA dogs are badly behaved, which is often why they are surrendered. Every single dog that went through that program learned to 1. Not jump on people. 2. Walk nicely without pulling. And 3. Not bark at kennel doors.

Wanna know the trick to teaching a dog not to pull on their walks? As soon as they pull, stop in your tracks. Dont yank them back, dont drag them off. Just stop. Once the dog relaxes and looks at you, give them a click and a treat and then continue on your walk. This teaches them that 1. Pulling means the walk stops and so 2. If I dont pull, I get treats, and we still get to walk. We did the same thing with teaching dogs not to bark and jump at kennel doors. If they are being loud and jumpy, turn your back on them and do not acknowledge it. The second they quiet down, turn and give them a treat. Only give them your attention when they are quiet. This teaches them that 1. If I'm quiet my person gives me love and 2. The faster I get quiet, the faster we get to do fun things. Never had to use a shock collar to stop barking. Never had to use a prong collar to stop pulling. And we had over 100 dogs go through the school in the course of two years.

I get so many people come into the clinic saying that their dog doesn't behave unless their collar is on, or they have to keep the shock collars on 'as a reminder'. Thats not a well trained dog. Thats a dog that has learned to fear punishment for its behaviour. And that, in my opinion, is cruel.

Also worth mentioning that prong collars are absolutely useless in a clinic setting. They provide no restraint, it hurts my hand to hold onto them, and I cant hold the dog without hurting it. Do not use a prong collar to take your dog to the vet. Just train your dog to walk on a leash nicely. It will be so much easier.

[neuropoodle]

hello! i was just wondering, how do prong collars work and how do i use one without hurting the dog? i'm on a waitlist for a tervuren puppy, and although i'm not sure if i'll need one (the breeder focuses on gentler temperaments, but still, it's a belgian!), i'd like to know how to utilize them anyway, since my current dog and all the dogs i've had before have all been of lower energy, sensitive breeds like collies!

hey! prongs are an aversive training collar that use a pinch around the dog’s neck to dissuade or disencourage behaviors. i use a prong on anubis because it helps me keep him below threshold when hes becoming reactive, disencourage behaviors i don’t want, and stop pulling on the leash when excited (which also keeps my shoulders from subluxating.) 

unless you’re choking or stringing the dog up with the prong collar, you shouldn’t be hurting them with a properly fit prong. prongs should be used to give a quick correction- though quick tugs don’t work for every dog, anubis works better off a “low and slow” correction- and then redirected and rewarded. 

that being said, not every dog is “hard” enough for a prong collar, and more sensitive breeds like sighthounds and border collies don’t usually need a tool as aversive as a prong. 

i recommend looking up “How to Correctly Fit a Prong” by Leerburg on youtube for a more in depth explanation! wishing you well with your puppy!!

[thegrumpygroomer]

Collars and training

Every time I think about this, I get pissed off. So here I am. Not so much grooming related, but very much dog related.

So, the other day, these two dogs come in for a haircut and one of them is a German Shepherd who was sent away for obedience training. She was a wreck; she barked and bounced around her kennel the entire time and was really only good on the grooming table. It exhausted the groomer (she wasn’t my dog. she was someone else's) and we all spent the day listening to her freak out over every little thing.

My co-worker left for the day and the person I was working with didn’t feel confident enough to control her on the walk out so it left me to prepare the shepherd for her exit. I didn’t see her come in but she was wearing a pinch collar that was too tight. Way too tight. Like it couldn’t turn once it was on her too tight.

I tried to explain that to her owners but was completely ignored by the adults. It was only the little girl who turned and repeated my words only to have them scoff at her, say it was supposed to be that tight and walk out of the salon. Now, here’s my problems.

One: you should not send your dog away for obedience training. Maybe it works for a small portion of them but from what I’ve seen? It’s a waste of money. When you go into a training class, the trainer is teaching you how to train your dog so the lessons can continue at home. It’s for bonding with your dog and learning how to communicate properly.

The only exception I’ve heard for this type of sleep away camp style training is for a dog learning to hunt, but even then the owner comes back to work on some lessons with the trainer.

But I don’t want to hear you barking orders at your dog while I have them only to be frustrated when my stern tone is more effective than your shrill screeches of “sit” and “stay.” There’s a reason you’re words aren’t heeded.

Two: If I’m saying something to you, it’s a true concern. I’ve seen those pinch collars worn both properly and improperly. If I say it’s not right, it’s because I’ve seen ten of the same collar worn correctly in that same week. Yes, my job is to give your dog a haircut but you’re a fucking idiot if you think that’s all I’ve learned in this time as a groomer. I’m doing something most dogs fucking hate, so how about not being such a piece of shit when you walk into my salon?

I’m not saying you have to obey my every order. What I’m saying is to at least entertain the notion that maybe there’s something wrong if the prongs on your collar refuse to move from their place in your dog’s neck.

Holy Hell, I hope she doesn’t wear that when she’s at home. 

Three: All. Collars. Should. Be. Able. To. Move.

It doesn’t matter the type. It should be able to be adjusted so that it can sit correctly. You should be able to fit two fingers between the collar and your pup’s neck. Anything that gets stuck in position is too tight and possible akin to torture. So fix your god damn fucking collar!

I’m done for now. This rant may have actually made me feel worse, not better. But it’s here. It exists. And it’s done

[jasperandcanines]

“Prong, choke and shock collars were specifically designed to instill pain. That is the principle upon which they work – the addition of discomfort in order to stop unwanted behavior. This isn’t my opinion. This is simply a matter of fact. There isn’t room for disagreement or debate. It’s reality. It’s truth.

[...]

The other issue is one of ethics. Obviously, that isn’t up for debate. My ethics are mine and yours are yours. But for those who continue to defend the use of such devices, I do have a question: What is the “proper” way to inflict pain upon your companion?

Do it higher up on the neck?

Throw your friend a cookie in between bouts of restricting his breathing?

Only hurt your friend when you’re up against “distractions” (more aptly known as competing motivators)?

I can’t think of a single scenario, outside of a training context, in which any decent human being would knowingly inflict pain on his or her dog. So why do we make excuses when it’s “in the name of training”? Abuse is abuse, right?”

- ‘What is the “Proper” Way to Hurt a Dog?’ by Kelly Duggan for Your Pit Bull and You.

[spacelulu]

over the weekend i saw a ~10 week old puppy on a prong collar and i just.. can’t stop thinking about it. i often cringe when i see folks walking their dogs on these, usually they are lab or shepherd mixes, and i don’t think i’ve ever seen one that’s properly fitted. it’s cringey, but.. it’s easier to turn the other cheek i guess. but when i saw this puppy, i nearly lost it and went up to ask the owner what the hell they were doing. THIS is the reason i don’t think these tools should be widely available. 10 week old puppy sees another dog or a human it likes, it pulls, and what happens? pain. what if it forgets and runs to the end of the leash? like. this was not a service dog puppy whose owner was watching it with an eagle eye. this was some little shepherd mix going for a walk around town while the couple walking it chatted and pulled it along. how is that... allowed??? as much as i want to see them go away, i understand some people use them and like them i guess, because of their precision. but i just. i am so upset that they are becoming popular with folks that have a dog and do no training with it then decide it’s time to stop its pulling by causing it pain. 

[ilovegreatdanes]

Maybe we can discuss prong collars soon?

If you have any points to make, make them now because damn will there be a shit storm coming your way tomorrow.

[jasperandcanines]

Position Statement on the Use of Choke and Prong Collars

It is the position of the Pet Professional Guild that effective animal training procedures lay the foundation for an animal’s healthy socialization and training and helps prevent behavior problems. The general pet-owning public should be educated by organizations and associations to ensure pet animals live in nurturing and stable environments to better prevent behavior problems and help ensure the overall well-being of the animal. Consistent with this effort, it is the position of the Pet Professional Guild (PPG) that the use of collars and leads that are intended to apply constriction, pressure, pain or force around a dog’s neck (such as choke chains and prong collars) should be avoided.

Though data demonstrating the exact damage that can be potentially caused by using choke and prong collars is incomplete, experience has shown that soft tissue injuries are common and, as is the case with any harsh training method, the damage to the animal-human relationship results. Studies and the experience of the PPG’s membership finds that training and behavior problems are consistently and effectively solved without the use of choke or prong collars with the alternative methods reinforcing the animal-human bond. Evidence indicates that rather than speeding the learning process, harsh training methods actually slow the training process, add to the animal’s stress and can result in both short-term and long-term psychological damage to animals.

Common problems which can result from the use of choke and prong collars:

Physical problems

While precise information on the potential damage caused by the use of choke and prong collars is still being collected, there are many cases of dogs suffering soft tissue damage, eye problems, strangulation (leading to death), tracheal/esophageal damage and neurological problems resulting from the use of choke/prong collars.

Training Fallout

Choke chains and prong collars are designed to administer negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Training techniques based in these two learning theory quadrants are prone to side effects. As an example, a dog wearing a choke or prong collar that fearfully barks and lunges at another dog would then be choked or pain inflicted by the prong collar. The pain and choking then adds to the negative association the dog wearing the collar has with other dogs. This is the polar opposite of what an ideal training protocol is designed to accomplish.

Even if a dog is free of reactivity issues, using a choke or prong is less than ideal. Today there are many effective alternatives available for training and management of skills where choke and prong collars have been traditionally used for teaching loose-leash-walking and formal/precision heel training

Conclusion

It is the position of the PPG that all training should be conducted in a manner that encourages animals to enjoy training and become more confident and well-adjusted pets. In addition, PPG members optimize the use of functional analysis to identify and resolve problem behaviors where choke and prong collars are typically used such as leash-pulling and lunging. All PPG members should encourage and use positive operant and respondent training methods, both personally and professionally. Further, the PPG and its members actively recommend against the use of choke and prong collars while actively promoting the use of flat buckle collars, head halters, harnesses and other types of control equipment that are safer for the animal.

[jasperandcanines]

The impetus for this topic came from an article I sent out on Facebook on how to behave around a service dog. The article made many good points about respecting the space around a working service dog and his/her human, but I didn’t notice that it came with a photograph of a dog wearing a prong collar. Many people commented on the content of the article, but several also called me out for sending around a photograph of a service dog wearing a prong collar.

But here we are in 2017, and prong collars are still being used. It should be clear that I’m not a fan. That probably doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone. The reasons not to use a prong collars are many: 1) They use “positive punishment” (positive does not mean good here!) to suppress behavior, which is associated with an increase in behavior problems [Herron et al Appl An Beh Sci 2009], an increase in aggression, and can diminish the trust between dog and owner, 2) they don’t teach the dog what you do want, and 3) they can cause physical damage to the neck, including to the sensitive thyroid gland, the spine, and the muscles of the neck. If you haven’t seen it yet, there’s a good article in Whole Dog Journal about this issue.

End of story? Well, no.  Because several people wrote in on Facebook defending prong collars, explaining that they were the only way they could control their dog. This is a legitimate concern. It’s all very well to dismiss someone’s concerns about a dog pulling them around, but the fact is, the results can be serious. I write in The Education of Will about a woman whose dog-dog reactive Saint Bernard badly injured her shoulder while lunging toward another dog. People with service dogs often have limited physical ability to control a dog, and can be horribly injured if a dog breaks training and lunges forward. Imagine how vulnerable you would feel if you have a large dog, and truly felt you had no other choice than a prong collar.

Which brings me to the “collars I have loved part”. I’d like to initiate a discussion about the best ways to walk with a dog who is not yet trained to move through space like a primate (walking shoulder to shoulder while strolling with a friend), and walks like a dog (reacting to the environment in real time). Yes, of course, training is important, and if I were queen, all dogs would be walked with fixed nylon or leather collars and a set of great training sessions under their belt, uh… collar. But that’s simply not realistic for everyone, all the time. So what are the alternatives?