#reply for ts

[scienter]

s4, s5 and s6 was slow-burn for Steroline. There was friendship, closure from previous relationships, jealousy seeing each other with someone else, there was teasing, increased closeness, borderline-platonic dynamic followed by angst that made sense for the characters and a strong emotional pay-off. The no-humanity off-arc was also needed to get them over that friendship hump. S7 was rage-bait. S and C were deliberately kept apart using non-communication. It's a writing issue where tv shows do not know how to write a couple when they are finally together. So they keep delaying the inevitable. It reaches a point where it's not slow-burn anymore. The romance has been blown up. The friendship is nonexistent. Characters are on two different paths. Eventually when writers do put them together, it feels rushed when it's not supposed to. Mondler is an exception. Do you have slow-burn couples where you enjoyed the initial build-up only to be disappointed with the getting-together and the subsequent relationship?

Josh & Donna in The West Wing. Aaron Sorkin built them up so well in the first 4 seasons, but he left the show to deal with his cocaine addiction. So, John Wells became show runner and the writing team pulled Josh & Donna apart (physically and emotionally). Then with a few episodes left the writers hastily put them together. It was such a let-down. Aaron Sorkin has said he would have Josh and Donna together in season 5 if he was still there. And I doubt he would have made their relationship so angsty because Sorkin wrote TWW with a romantic and idealistic tone. That's how he wrote Josh and Donna. I would have LOVED to have seen Sorkin's version of Josh and Donna getting together.

Luke & Lorelai In Gilmore Girls. Luke and Lorelai were great in season 5. But their relationship fell apart in season 6 when the writers introduced Luke's daughter, and Luke withheld that information from Lorelai. That was a contrived conflict between the characters to derail their relationship at the end of the season. Moreover, Luke's worst traits were flanderized  in season 6 (he became an asshole) and Lorelai was out of character (she never spoke up about Luke's behavior). Season 6 ended with them pushing their wedding back and Lorelai sleeping with Chris after giving Luke an ultimatum.  Season 6 was so bad that I was HOPING the show would get cancelled after season 7. I don't understand why the writers would sabotage the main romance after building it up for as long as they did.

Mulder & Scully in the X Files. Mulder and Scully's romantic relationship wasn't disappointing. It was disappointing that beginning of the relationship occurred off screen.  Mulder and Scully canonically got together sometime during season 7. However, we don't definitively know when or how they hooked up in season 7 because their romance wasn't explicitly shown/acknowledged until season 8. There were hints throughout season 7 that they were together (e.g., they kissed on New Year's, there's a morning after scene with Scully getting dressed in Mulder's bathroom as Mulder lays in his bed naked, Scully announced she's pregnant in the finale). But there wasn't a scene where they got together on screen.

It was bizarre. Mulder and Scully's romance was canon in season 7, but because it was implied there's still debate when their romance actually began! Was it when they slept together in all things? Did they hook up after they kissed in Millenium? Or were they secretly hooking up the entire season? WE HAVE NO IDEA. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN HEAD CANON BECAUSE NO CANON EXISTS ABOUT IT. Making matters worse it's revealed in season 8 flashbacks that Mulder and Scully were trying to have a baby together via IVF. LIKE WHAT!!?? Again, when did that happen? Were they trying to have a baby before or after they started sleeping together in season 7? Is that why they slept together? Was it comfort sex? (The IVF failed.) We. Don't. Know. All head canons about Mulder and Scully hooking up in season 7 are valid because we weren't given specific details about it. It drives me nuts.

[scienter]

What's your opinion on Caroline telling Stefan about Damon and Elena? Do you think she was in the wrong here?

Good question.

I think it's fair to argue that Caroline was in the wrong. However, Caroline was dealing with an ethical dilemma: not matter what she did she was betraying someone's trust. By withholding the truth about Damon and Elena from Stefan Caroline was betraying Stefan's trust and lying by omission. However, telling Stefan (or pointedly asking questions) she was betraying Elena's trust. No matter what Caroline did she was in the wrong. There was no right way to deal with this situation.

That said, here are a few reasons why I wasn't bothered by Caroline dropping hints that Elena and Damon were together.

Caroline's disclosure didn't (and wouldn't) result in material harm.

While I'm a militant about not disclosing secrets that can result in material harm (e.g., private legal, medical, financial information), I'm more tolerant about disclosing secrets that simply harm people's egos. (At least in fiction.)

And let's be clear, Elena asked Caroline to keep her relationship with Damon secret from Stefan to protect her own damn ego. Elena wanted to be with Damon without Stefan being upset with her for jumping into bed with his brother. It wasn't about privacy or preventing harm. Elena just didn't want to feel bad about sleeping with Damon. (I'm not hating on Elena here. I think her actions make sense, and led to a more interesting story.)

We learned that Caroline values Stefan's friendship more than Elena's

Elena put Caroline in a really shitty position: to lie to her best friend.  Caroline was put in a position where she had to prioritize the emotional needs of one friend over another. No matter what Caroline did she was betraying someone's trust. So, Caroline had to decide who's friendship she valued more: Stefan or Elena. She chose Stefan. That was a revelation.

We learned:

Caroline valued Stefan's trust more than she valued Elena's.

Caroline cared more about Stefan's feelings than she cared about Elena's.

Caroline wasn't willing to lie by omission to Stefan.

Caroline cared about her friendship with Stefan more than her friendship with Elena.

Characters are my favorite literary device, and it's ethical dilemmas like this that we learn A LOT about a character.

It led to a more interesting story

The triangle was boring and stale by mid-season 4. I was tired of Stefan putting Elena on a pedestal, pining after her, and putting her emotional needs first all the while she's hooking up with Damon. I was ready for the triangle to die. Caroline's actions helped kill the triangle off more quickly. I'm all for that.

[scienter]

lol-ing at tvd writers making caroline say she never knew what her future would look like(with stefan) and that unknown was exciting(8×13).First of all since when has caroline been excited about the unknown? That totally contradicts who she is. Then she saying she never knew which means she didn't know how her life would be like with stefan when he was still immortal. If she never knew, why was she even getting married? Not to mention there are actual kids involved who she chose to (offscreen) be a mom to. Way to go writers making caroline seem like an irresponsible parent. (1/3)

Caroline is determined to make stefan see just because their future doesn't seem appealing as before (because he is human) doesn't mean they shouldn't at least try. I completely get the point but i am like did she even consider how her children's lives would look like when she'd have to uproot her life from theirs because choosing to stay a vampire means keeping the not aging part a secret. She'd not be able to participate in important firsts in their lives, probably would have to attend their graduation in disguise. Maybe initially she avoided it because she didn't have a choice in the matter. She was scared of the touchy/ uncomfortable subject of an unknown future with the kids but what about after when she was marrying the supposed love of her life ? this further proves the ridiculousness of the pregnancy plot that the writers pretended was an obstacle but couldn't bother explaining. (2/3)

Lastly, when she says how misguided she was (about her excitement of the unknown with stefan) and uses that to stay aloof and distant. but marrying ric 'for the kids' was an intellectual decision???  It's like the writers just threw in random terms to justify plots without thinking and hoped that we wouldn't notice they didn't make sense. They did the same when they used 'abandoned' to justify caroline's 3 year long anger then pivoted to Caroline suddenly understanding stefan's noble-ish decision in a matter of a day. (3/3)

The writers altering or abandoning previous characterization to fit the plot was one of my central problems with the show. I first noticed it with Damon in season 4 when the writers abandoned Damon's previous characterization during the cure story line:

"I have a secret. I'm not human. And I miss it. I miss it more than anything in the world."  - Damon, season 2

"I used to be human. Now I can't think of anything more miserable on earth." - Damon season 4

Damon's change of heart was never explained or explored. The writers altered Damon's character to fit the plot.

So, I'm not surprised that they pulled the same nonsense with Caroline. And it's one of the primary reasons why I don't like the cure and Calaric story lines.

TVD was great when the writers tailored the plot to fit the characters. TVD was terrible when the characters were re-tooled to fit the plot.

[scienter]

Samantha Highfill published a companion guide book to TVD called I was Feeling Epic. It mainly has all the writer, producer and cast interviews that we have heard over the years. There is not really any new information except that Nina experienced pay disparity since the beginning. She was contracted to play only Elena but she was playing multiple characters. Her pay,however,was nowhere near the boys'. In fact, according to Nina, she , Candice and Kat were the lowest paid series regulars on the show. So it turns out the actual reason why Nina quit after season 6 is because she felt she was not appreciated enough. She said it was not about money. It was about principle.

The network refused to pay her more when the writers tried to get her back for the full season 8. Her pay for the last episode was even lower than what she got in s6. Honestly, all of this is disappointing although not shocking at all. But I wonder if Nina decided to speak up, after all these years is because Plec & Kevin have been blaming her for quitting , for an endgame that they were not really into executing( at least, Plec wasn't) when the real reason why she refused to continue was never disclosed.

(1/2)

Oh, I read about the pay disparity in Entertainment Weekly! I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was. (Of course those women were paid less than the men. Of course they were). I don't blame Nina for leaving. She worked harder than anyone on that damn show. She was the protagonist and the main antagonist for years. She should have been the highest paid actor from the beginning. I also read that the studio's refusal to pay Nina a fair wage is why the writers wrote Katherine out the show. Now I know who to blame for that stupid decision.

I didn't know that story about Candice! JFC. Glad Candice put her foot down, and put her health first. What were JP & GS thinking!? The whole dumb in-verse magical pregnancy looks even worse now. Before it was simply an asinine story line. Now it's a story line that risked the health of the pregnant actress! smh. The TVD writers should have just strategically hid Candice's pregnancy like the Office writers did for Angela Martin during season 4. That way Candice would have been more comfortable and we would have gotten a better story. The Calaric pregnancy has aged so bad.

[scienter]

Why do I keep seeing people say that Steroline is like Maroline (Matt x Caroline)? I mean there are so many obvious differences

 Seriously? People are comparing Stefan to Matt!?

Honestly, I assume it's a way to dismiss Steroline because Matt's relationship with Caroline was very different from Stefan's relationship with her. There is no reasonable way to compare those two relationships. Stefan was Caroline's mentor and best friend and vice versa. Matt was not. Not even close. The Maroline/Steroline comparison sounds like a bad faith comparison to me. I don't know how else to explain it. They're not remotely similar.

[scienter]

If Enzo didn’t outed Caroline in 6x07, do u think Steroline will happen? Because i feel like both SC are just stubborn and waiting for someone to confess first lmao

I do. I think Damon would have said something to Stefan (lmao) or Stefan's feelings would have been so strong that he couldn't ignore them anymore. Once Stefan was aware of those feelings (Caroline's and his own) he did address it. Stefan's problem was a lack of self-awareness more than anything else.

[scienter]

Apparently Candice has dropped one of those tiktok things and captioned it - 'Caroline should have ended up with Klaus' . lmao I mean to each their own but gurrrl has been mocking and hating on that ship for over a decade now like her life depended on it.If I were a kc shipper, I'd get second hand embarrassment.Nobody on that show hated on a ship like candice hated on kc.But go off with the 30 million views and likes I guess. KC was,indeed, a gut-wrenching content after all.

Oof. I don’t know if that’s brave or foolish. 🫣

Personally I think it's best when actors treat ship wars thusly:

[scienter]

Writers' tendency of flanderizing elements in order to manufacture conflict is one of the worst things that could happen to a character.It's like you said instead of allowing Caroline to overcome her flaws,her flaws were made to look "cute and endearing" for melodrama. Similarly,Stefan was never allowed to learn and grow out of the toxic patterns of his relationship with Damon.He fell back onto his unhealthy habit repeatedly & this was sold to the audience as brotherly love.The head writer believed stefan's true happiness lay in his acts of self-sacrifice made in service of his brother.But that's not remotely beautiful.That's self-destructive.And it did ultimately destroy him.Were they raising him like a pig for slaughter?

I agree, anon. In fact, I think Flanderization is the first sign of Seasonal Rot. Doesn’t matter what show it occurs – The Simpsons, TVD, Friends, Gilmore Girls, The Office – Flanderization is when the audience starts to notice a decline in quality.

And Stefan's martyrdom was tiring by season 4. It was unacceptable by season 7. The whole point of a character arc is character development. In that measure, the writers failed miserably. Stefan never grew beyond 1x20:

Elena: How you feelin'? Damon says you need to drink that. You need it, Stefan. Can't survive without it. Stefan: I don't want to survive. Elena: What? Don't say that. Stefan: I'm sorry, Elena. No more. After what I've done, it has to end. I just want it over.

Stefan: It hurts me. It hurts me, knowing what I've done, and that pain...That pain is with me all the time. And every day, I think that if I just...If I just give myself over to the blood, I can make that pain stop. It would be that easy, and every day, I fight that. And I am so terrified that one day, I'm not gonna want to fight that anymore, Elena. And the next time I hurt somebody...It could be you.

What was the point of Stefan's story? He never dealt with his issues. He never moved past them. He never grew as a character. So, what was the point?