Been sitting on this for a while but I need to talk about the English dub direction for Pomefiore before Book 5 rolls around and it's too late to course-correct.
I've been a twst fan since it launched on JP and was pleasantly surprised by how on point the EN dub is. Everyone has been wonderful, the range is insane and they were dream picks on paper.
However, seeing the way Rook, Vil and Epel have been directed in a way that completely goes against their characters that I enjoyed in the original JP is disheartening and I'm really surprised at how so many things have just outright been changed and missed by the EN for a lot of the characters, but I'm focusing on Pome for this.
- Vil is calm, grounded and refined, he wears a "beautiful" front and is strict with himself, while still having a soft and loving side for those closest to him like Rook and eventually Epel and Ortho. He's androgynous and gender-non-conforming and a great representation of it! He's harsh and in business mode for everything pre-book 6, and can be a total jerk too, but cares about making things beautiful and cares about how people are seen.
What he isn't is a campy diva doing jazz hands, he's a young man who has sacrificed every part of himself to be "the fairest one of all," and when that ideal cracks in Book 5, it destroys him. The dub's current "over-the-top drag queen" energy completely undercuts that character despite the EN VA otherwise sounding great for him.
- Rook Hunt is a poetic and eccentric young man and hunter who uses a handful of (sometimes grammatically wrong) French phrases for flair (iirc the words are from Fleur City in twst which he's using). France does not exist in Twisted Wonderland's world except from the world Yuu comes from (outside of Fleur City as seen in Glorious Masquerade, and Rook learning to present his speech like how they spoke there) and when Rook speaks with flair and poetry, he also is shown to speak gently and bluntly, but in a very grounded way. Giving him a "hon hon baguette" Frenchman accent completely does a disservice to the character while undermining his theatrical behavior and turns him into a joke.
- I already had issue with how the EN Localisation of the game did Epel's dialect, which in the original JP is supposed to be thick and hard to understand, and it's why Vil makes him speak in standard because *no one can understand him* otherwise and it's rude. The Localization gives him an American country boy accent which ends up making Vil look classist, which he isn't at all (despite appearances) also the dub doesn't consider that Rook's thick French accent getting a pass but Epel's dialect being restrained is not something Vil would be behind as a character!
- Another change in the dub is that Epel is fully aware of what macarons are in JP, but the EN dub has him go "what even is a macaron". That changes an entire meaning! They even do this with Vil calling hunting "uncouth" which he'd never said in the original. (And Rook is a hunter, as well as his best friend/vice-housewarden!)
Pomefiore feels like they've been reduced to punchlines and tired tropes before we even reach their main arc, and it feels like a betrayal of everything that we learn in Books 5 and 6 about them. They have their problems and are definitely not what they appear on the surface, but this isn't how to go about it.
The EN voice actors can 100% deliver the canon nuance and we've heard their range. Matt Mercer is known for his range and could definitely do Rook closer to how he's written rather than a Lumiere caricature, and from what I've heard of Nick Monteleone's natural speaking voice, that suits Vil better than what he's currently done for him. This isn't about the talent, it's about the direction and script choices right now.
I hope the dub script and direction consider dialing back the caricature and letting Pomefiore be the elegant and fun characters they were written to be. The team is still early in production for future seasons so feedback now can actually matter.
Yes, I might be taking this too seriously, but Pomefiore is my favourite dorm and if every other dorm has been getting care given to them, I don't see why Pomefiore is being turned into a campy joke. I know some people love this take of them, but I also know many including myself do not, and don't feel it to be true to their personalities or characters. There were better ways to show it, and I hope they do change course with them.
There are many things I appreciate about the Twst anime adaptation so I have been holding in my criticism and telling myself they’re trying their best for 6 week but episode 7? Nope I HAVE to voice my concerns—
We NEED to talk about Riddle’s mother and her portrayal.
I will discuss the following:
Brief Mama Rosehearts introduction
Mama Rosehearts’ dub voice I may make a separate post about the dub in general cuz I am that one voice acting nerd
Showing Mama Rosehearts before Riddle’s overblot tips the balance of the Riddle vs Ace debate
I made a video essay version of this post. You can watch it here!
Spoilers for episode 7 and the end of book 1 below cut!
(Saying all this before my main argument because I can’t fit it anywhere)
The anime cut the part where Riddle goes crazy wondering if Trey’s magic is stronger cuz it would deny all his suffering to hone his magic capabilities I AM CRYING STOP CUTTING THINGS NECESSARY FOR RIDDLE AND ADDING UNNEEDED FLASHBACKS
Also why is there Riddle monologue in TREY’s flashback????
Riddle’s dub actor is so amazing in this episode I especially LOVE when he asks if Trey would betray him too
They spent the animation budget on the phantom instead of Riddle’s Madoka Magic transformation
(OK now onto Mama Rosehearts)
If there’s any dub-only reading this, please either watch the game chapter 1-25 or the Japanese version of Riddle’s backstory in ep7 just so we’re all on the same page, thank you!
1. Brief Mama Rosehearts introduction
The whole point of Mama Rosehearts is her hypocrisy. It’s the irony created by her misguided belief that she knows what’s best for Riddle while also making him suffer.
The fandom has a tendency to demonize Mama Rosehearts. This is not to justify what she has done, but the interpretation that she micromanages Riddle’s every move because “she doesn’t love him” is just wrong.
Yes, maybe she wanted to raise Riddle “correctly” just so he can become her ideal child. No, making your child a trophy is not a healthy mindset. However, she also cared deeply about Riddle’s health and achievements. She wanted Riddle to be healthy so much that she micromanages the nutrients in his birthday cake. She would never say “What is the matter with you!?” and blame Riddle because in her mind, Riddle is the perfect child that she raised, she would blame the other kids for leading him astray way before saying it’s Riddle’s problem because then she would be admitting her own mistakes.
You cannot deny that her arrogance makes her believe in Riddle’s absolute obedience.
You cannot deny that, while her ways are misguided and problematic, she loves Riddle.
2. Mama Rosehearts’ dub voice
Her dub voice started as overly sugary and protective, which is great. But when she reprimanded Riddle, she had this guttural, screechy, screaming kind of voice. And I’m here wondering why NO ONE on the directing team bothered to give the poor dub actress a note on what the original voice sounded like or how she’s supposed to sound like Mother Gothel when she’s calm and not when she explodes at Rapunzel.
This leads to 2 problems.
First, it diminishes the threat she poses to us as an audience. She’s supposed to be a landmine, not a grenade. She’s scary because you don’t know when or how she would explode. If someone is screaming gutturally at you every time they speak, you get used to it very quickly and start thinking that they are all bark and no bite. But if the scene keeps pushing a character whose anger seems to be slowing building, you would be scared every second fearing the eventual explosion.
Second, it changes her character and removes all of her care and hypocrisy. The entire point of Mama Rosehearts' character is that she believes what she does is best for Riddle without realizing the harm she’s causing. She would not shout at Riddle like she does in the dub because, in Mother Gothel’s words, she wouldn't want to make herself sound like “the bad guy”. In the strawberry tart scene, she started with a line that translates to “How could you even suggest that?”, but she is actually more concerned with nagging Riddle to never eat unhealthy foods that could hinder his studies more than the fact that Riddle is suggesting it.
In the second scene, there are some translation issues. Riddle shirked his studies and ate a strawberry tart, but she pins all the blame of it on Trey and Chenya leading him astray. She would never admit Riddle was to blame, because she would also be admitting she herself wasn’t the perfect mother. However, the translation “what is the matter with you!?” implies that she blames Riddle (in Japanese, this line was smth like “how could this happen?!”). The translation could still work if the voice actress made it sound like she was paranoid or anxious about Riddle disobeying her (aka. about her own imperfection as a mother), which is not how it sounded in the dub. In the dub, she was screaming at Riddle, 100% blaming him and the “was it those two who led you astray?” sounded like an afterthought.
In short, Mama Rosehearts’ threat and hypocrisy is best portrayed when she sounds like she believes she knows what’s best for Riddle. The audience needs the space to work out that even though she believes her love is true, her actions had caused much distress for Riddle. If she’s guttural and screaming every word, how do we hear the irony?
3. The Riddle vs Ace debate is now unfair
I remember the one thing that surprised me so much I got hooked on Twst 5 years ago was the library scene when Ace said Riddle’s problem is his own problem, not his mom’s. The game story did a wonderful job on baiting us to sympathize with Riddle through Trey’s perspective, only to surprise us with Ace saying the most correct words in this entire Heartslabyul book.
The main thesis of Twst book 1 is that Riddle’s actions are his own responsibility. His past can provide an explanation, but it cannot lead to forgiveness.
We, and Ace, can sympathize with Riddle. But we, through Ace, also understand that not everyone can forgive Riddle’s actions just because he had a sad past. This is something that holds true for real life, and holds true for Mama Rosehearts as well — just because you think you’re justified doesn’t mean you’re actually right.
I am a huge Riddle fan and I’ve loved him for 5 years. But regardless of whose side I’m on, to bring out the main thesis, the game/anime must give the audience a fair share of supporting arguments for both sides of the Riddle vs Ace debate before Riddle’s overblot ends so we can make our own judgements. We are supposed to hear ABOUT Riddle’s circumstances, not feel his pain.
And what did the anime do??
They showed child Riddle AND Mama Rosehearts BEFORE Riddle actually attempted murder and overblotted.
I was already on the fence when we got child Riddle in flashbacks several times until last week because the portrayal is too sympathetic. EVERYONE would sympathize with Riddle if child Riddle is that cute. Ace is literally arguing at the wall while everyone stares at those adorable blue eyes.
But in episode 7 they showed Mama Rosehearts?? And not just any Mama Rosehearts, but THE Mama Rosehearts who banned a child from spending time with his only friends???
We were never supposed to see child Riddle or Mama Rosehearts before Riddle’s overblot because the story needs us to, like Ace, judge 17-year-old Riddle for who he is, not who he was. The anime is not showing the supporting arguments fairly, it’s actively arguing against Ace. Showing Mama Rosehearts before Riddle’s overblot is like a dog showing you puppy eyes before biting you. You will perceive their goodness before their badness. You will perceive Ace’s arguments as unfair or too harsh before Riddle has time to show you how he’s willing to attack people because he’s too stubborn to be proven wrong. The game is saying “Ace has a point, but Riddle has a reason for being so tyrannical too. Ace pushed Riddle too far, but Riddle reacted too extremely.” The anime is saying “Ace has a point, but look at child Riddle can you really blame him?? Ace pushed Riddle too far, but look what happened when Riddle disobeyed can you really blame him??”
I’m someone who knows the story and even I felt like Ace wasn’t very convincing in episode 7.
The anime isn’t a fair debate anymore, it’s bashing Ace in favor of Riddle.
It’s leading to more misunderstandings about Mama Rosehearts’ specific kind of hypocrisy.
It’s not giving enough weight to Riddle’s actions, which means his eventual healing and earning forgiveness will mean so much less.
If any anime-onlys read this far, hi. The anime is doing a great job with many things tbh but this one episode just steered the characters in a direction so different that I cannot justify it anymore. Book 1 is short compared to other books. If you’re ever curious why we love Twst so much, please consider reading the Heartslabyul story in the game! You can find tons of translation on YouTube (I recommend Shel_BB).
Have you seen the new English voice actors they announced today?
YES! sorry this was from a few days ago but I've been busy~ I'M SO EXCITED!!
I want to start out by saying that overall I really like the casting and what I've heard! (Riddle's actor was KILLING IT!!) I'm really excited to see what each actor does with the characters. All of the voice actors seem very humble and enthusiastic to receive the role that they've gotten!
There are a few characters that I am a bit...unsure if I like the voice as much as the original. But I think it's important to keep in mind that we all have a bias towards the Japanese voices because it's all we've known for the past however many years! And if we are non-Japanese speakers sometimes I think we tend to romanticize languages not our own.
Also IMPORTANT to note that you're allowed to have your opinions!! But I think it's nice to be polite when making posts about the casting and not trash the English voice actors publicly as a majority of them seem to be active, especially on Twitter, in the fandom.
That being said: I've seen a lot of people feel embarrassed or feeling like they need to "edit" the way that they speak or act in the fandom of because the voice actors are here in the fandom too. And I also think that's silly!!
Please don't feel embarrassed, this is something that you love, the voice actors are just doing their job! Don't feel embarrassed about something that you deeply love or appreciate because it's really not for them to judge you either~
All in all, I think that it has been a positive thing and I've seen a lot of positivity back and forth between fans and the actors! It makes me happy! Just being nicer and considerate to each other, I guess is the gist of what I'm saying! And don't feel the need to feel awkward or strange for being a fan, this is our space!
I don’t like the official French dub of Twisted Wonderland, the voices are so poorly chosen and don’t match the characters at all.😭
It’s honestly painful to listen to, especially for a longtime fan who’s attached to the characters. I really wish the anime had a better French dub and a better casting choice💀💔
Anyway, I think I’ll comfort my heart with the English version and the original one instead🛐🤧😭
Everyone sounds PERFECT but I'm pissed at Jamil for being the only one who didn't say ANYTHING. NAZEEH. SPEEEAK. 😭
Everyone's accents are also perfect. British-ish Riddle, Frenchie Rook, country Epel...and whatever the heck I heard come out of Silver?? What was that?? I love it??
Floyd's lil "wuh oh :D" was SO CUTE
Idia calling Azul the GOAT is absolutely adorable 🥰
I thought Riddle's angry monologue was going so well until he yelled "TWIT!!!!!!!" and I may have almost cried because how dare you do that to him.
What's up with Crowley pronouncing his name "kro-lee" not "craow-lee"?? I have always said it "craow", and no one I know says it actually like the word "crow". It makes sense, but....I'm not used to it.
Crowley: *is Tatum*........Jade: "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MEEEE"
ALSO WHAT'S UP WITH TWST LITERALLY CONFIRMING IT WAS CROWLEY TALKING IN THE PROLOGUE. "PROUD BEAUTIFUL FLOWER OF EVIL" MY ASS WHAT THE HECK WERE YOU DOING I NEED MORE TIME LOOP THEORIES NOW AAAAAGH-
I was fully expecting Cater to be trying to take some selfies with the blue fire lighting..
The little keychain chibis at the end were SO CUTE. I was rolling my eyes at Kalim for not knowing what their orientation ceremony was until I remembered that he arrived later in the last year (love and prayers for Jamil help that poor man), so he wouldn't have attended the orientation....mb Kali 🙏
The way Deuce got PISSED at Ace for calling him Juice makes me think that isn't the first time in the 15 minutes of orientation that he called him that.... 🤣🤣🤣🤣
And....I will admit that I was looking to see if Scarabia Student B (Sibi, as I have named him) wasn't among the NPCs.... *sniff* at least i saw one fine shyte NPC among Heartslabyul.. :3
overall the art was so vivid and gorgeous!!! i also loved the little highlights in some people's hair, like Crowley's green being more clear to see than in the game, and the pink at the end of Riddle's hair. the blue fire so generously granted to us by Grimmy was doing their face cards all favors ✨✨✨✨✨✨
I feel so bad for Malleus missing the ceremony, mainly because I think he would've really wanted to be there for Sebek's first orientation at NRC :( the Diafam always wants to show up for each other 💚💚💚🖤🖤🖤
