mushy

ℯ𝒷ℴℴ𝓀 ℴ𝒻 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹ℴ𝓌𝓈

[cryptotheism]

Got any spells in your tomes that help with creative pursuits?

Ive recently been reading Austin Osman Spare. That was kinda his whole deal.

[cryptotheism]

Where’s the line that separates occult practice from fascism? Is there a line?

Oh there's absolutely a line, and its "the presence of fascism"

Fascism cannot create anything, it must steal from whatever is available. Fascism is a very emotional thing. It thrives not on what IS right, but what FEELS right. Its all noise, no meaning, because meaning can be criticized and disassembled, meaning requires actually believing in something.

The Occult is a veritable goldmine of Emotionally Evocative Imagery just lying around to be utilized. Its a huge constantly shifting melting pot of ideas, which might as well be catnip for fascists looking for some evocative symbology to pour their ideas into.

The occult is just like any other ideology in that if you jump in uncritically, all you're going to do is confirm your own biases. However, the occult milieu, due to its lack of structure and focus on emotionally evocative imagery, has a tendency to turbocharge that process.

[hazardous-waste-containment]

The occult isn’t at all my specialty so I can’t and wouldn’t challenge you on the analysis of why some fascists draw on it (I agree fascism tends to explicitly emphasize the symbolic and emotional more than other ideologies, so as far as it goes this explanation makes sense!) but I am skeptical of 1) the claim that fascism cannot create anything (nice soundbite but it’s not falsifiable, and moreover even George Mosse admits that while fascist culture is all recycled symbols and rituals, fascist politics are still a notable innovation), and 2) the baffling assertion that fascism has no meaning and that fascists don’t believe in anything. Even Mosse or Robert Paxton would disagree with that statement, it’s a very old-fashioned liberal idea that fascism is like, the West’s descent into an empty and irrational barbarism. It’s obvious and completely understandable why that idea arose but it’s untenable if we’re actually trying to define fascism. Confusingly, you refer to “evocative symbology to pour their ideas into” – so they do have ideas? What are they?

[meshugenist]

also "the occult" as you are describing it here is the creation of several centuries worth of racist white european goyim mashing together a bunch of dislocated and decontextualized ideas from many of the cultures they were conquering or oppressing to create new religious worldviews that furthered the white supremacist myth of their own exceptionalism, which grew more focused over time. like i hate to say it but occultism is so linked to european fascism because it more or less grew out of christian-adjacent white supremacist religious cults. it's white supremacy basically all the way down

[cryptotheism]

I feel like we might be using different definitions of "The Occult" here. Esoterica might be a better term on my part, less association with Blavatsky.

[meshugenist]

perhaps, but in that case i think you are making a mistake, because "the occult" is a very western christian/post-christian concept that does not easily map onto every single esoteric or magic tradition (on that note, your friends who you mentioned in the tags who call kaboloh occult are misinformed and/or trying to frame kaboloh in a specific western occultist aesthetic). your idea of occultism as a general classification going by how you described it maps specifically to western post-christian esotericism, which gives the illusion of being a general term by posturing as universally syncretic. occultism (as in the specific western/european post-christian conception and practice/larping of "the occult") is closely and intrinsically connected to fascism in a way that other nonwestern esoteric traditions are not (which is obviously not to say that only christianity or post-christian religions can be weaponized for fascist purposes or contain latent ideas that can easily become fascist bc that can happen with any religion, including atheism and antitheism, but that's a whole other post). the rise of fascism in the west in many places basically grew in tandem with occultism in a mutually linked way that reflects the history of occultism as a white/christian supremacist movement, and i am pretty certain that this close connection is what your anon is asking about. the high statistical overlap of occultism and fascism is not a opportunistic coincidence, it is a built in feature, and taking occultism's universal self-definition at face value allows one to sidestep this observation and mire oneself in equivocation and detached philosophizing unmoored from the actual history of fascism and fascisms

[cryptotheism]

Okay apologies but I think we actually agree on most points here but are using very different terminology to discuss the underlying ideas.

[meshugenist]

oh yea this is absolutely a semantic argument. my point was just that you approached this asker from a universalist perspective when she absolutely was not talking abt a universalist definition of occultism

[cryptotheism]

Okay okay I think I see what you mean. Yeah I didn't mean to imply that The Occult was some sort of single contiguous religious practice as if Kabbalah and Orphism and Thelema or whatever are all just a bizarre perennialist expressions of some Secret Hidden Religion or anything like that, just that fascists are drawn to the occult because it's already just a big melting pot of stolen ideas anyway.

[cryptotheism]

how far removed do you think john michael greer is from allister crowley

Greer is a druid, specifically Arch druid of an organization directly pattered off the Golden Dawn. Crowley was an extraordinarily prominent golden dawn author. Two Idealogical steps.

[cryptotheism]

The takeaway here is that basically anyone doing magic today is really no more than two or three steps from Crowley.

[plotbunnyfarm]

how does that happen, though? Why aren't there western magic practitioners further from Crowley, if Crowley is so recent? Or was that part of his influence, getting his stuff everywhere, so nobody's far from him?

[cryptotheism]

Imo, two big reasons:

1) Crowley was a systemizer. He had a -and I mean this in this best possible sense- downright autistic ability to fit together literally hundreds of different theological concepts into something that truly was more than the sum of it's parts. He also added things to "formal magic" that people never really considered before. Like, he added esoteric stretching routines. Shit that people didn't even realize they wanted, but things that formed a cohesive whole. His work is sorta the "a music player that's also a phone" of occult history.

2) He was a salesman. Despite his raucous bigotry, he was a man who understood what people wanted from a magical practice for his time; generally speaking, a huge fucking middle finger to Christianity. Thelema could effectively be described as a "post Christianity." It's theology is almost tailor made for people who grew up in hyper-conservative religious backgrounds looking to deconstruct their experiences.

Given that he was doing all of this in the early 20th century, it's honestly no wonder he was so influential.

[cryptotheism]

Thoughts on Thelema?

Imo it's like, the Hegelianism of occult philosophy. Even if you don't personally vibe with it, it's one of those things any serious occultist NEEDS to study. You could describe 20th century occultism in the west as "people responding to Thelema" be it through attempted improvement or criticism.

Crowley was a racist cunt, but that's also the most surface-level criticism I could level against him. Like what a surprise, a rich occultist from 1904 was racist. Understanding his work enough to effectively criticize it is, imo, extremely important.

[normal-horoscopes]

If you're genuinely interested in exploring magic in practice, start with tarot.

Get yourself a classic Raider-Waite-Smith. Any deck is fine but the specific symbolism of the RWS will be important later.

See how it feels to manipulate the cards. Pay attention to the internal experience of reading for other people.

Practice until you don't need the little book. Use the deck like flash cards. Major arcana, minor arcana, inversions, the works.

Do some reading about the symbology of the RWS. Learn where the symbology comes from and how it's been applied in other practices. Gain an appreciation for the nuances of the real-world history.

Apply those concepts to symbology outside of the tarot. Where else do you see that same specific triangular connection between symbol, object, and experience?

[cryptotheism]

Hey CT, I think I remember you mentioning that tarot was a good beginning to sort of esoteric or occult thinking. Any particular recommendations or thoughts on where to get started with it?

Purchase a Rider-Waite-Smith

Practice with the deck while learning about the symbology and history of the deck.

Repeat until you can read the cards without having to look up their meanings.

Send me another ask discussing your experience.

[cryptotheism]

I'd like to be a wizard how do I get started

1) Buy a raider waite smith

2) practice with it until you can read it from memory

3) learn about it's history and symbology.

[cryptotheism]

What questions does a magic system have to answer, or what boxes does it need to tick, for it to be 'comprehensive'?

That's a good question! and one that could be endlessly debated. Its kinda like asking "what does a cuisine need to be considered a cuisine?" There aren't any hard and fast rules, but if someone walked up to me personally and said "I have a new magical system ready to go" I would look for a few things:

(Gonna qualify this by saying this is just off the top of my head)

Theory Side:

1 - An atomic theory - Where did the universe come from? Whats it made of? It it atoms? platonic elements? Notes of the divine song? Grains of sand pulled from the abyssal sea? A systems relationship to material reality is what grounds it.

2 - A theory of identity - What is the thing you call "you"? Is it a fragment of the divine? A sub-divinity? Ashes of the divine corpse? An infestation in creation whose goal is to one day consume the divine? A piece in a divine chess game between the light and dark? A mistake? What happens when you're born? What about when you die?

3 - A theory of magic - How does the mind effect the world? Are you reading the lyrics of creation? Making a deal with the living spirit of every proton? Plucking the web of subtle connections between things? Are you just smacking atomic rocks together? And magic is no different than making a sandwich?

Practical Side:

1 - Natural Magic - How do your spells work? Can I make a spell out of buttons and paperclips? Stuff I found around the house? I find it important that a system lets me look at ordinary objects in new ways.

2 - Language! - Incorporating magic into language, especially written text, has become a cornerstone of any good magical theory. At this point in history, you cant really have a magical system without some fun linguistic semiotics. Gimme runes.

3 - Ritual Magic - These are your Big Guns, where you start going from a magical practice and edging into religion. What do you do to wake up every day? What is commemorated? What is given importance through action? What does the system overall focus on? Does the system have a goal to be accomplished through ritual?

Stuff I just like to see:

1 - Yoga - Not literal yoga, mind you. But any sort of spiritualized exercise regimen. This can be a tough one to get right, especially given the prevalence of medical pseudoscience and the general diversity of human bodies, but incorporating the entire body into a practice can have profound effects.

2 - Modularity - People are gonna want to customize their practice. Build that in. Give people options.

3 - Anti-theism - This is that good shit. You should be able to meaningfully participate in the system while not believing in the supernatural whatsoever.

[cryptotheism]

What was magic like in ancient mesopotamia? What kimds of Guys were there?

We are constantly learning new things about ancient Mesopotamia but the big one was the Asipu. The class of temple priests who were responsible for things like fumigating crops with holy incenses to ward away bugs.

[cryptotheism]

how much of magic would you say is placebo? or just like apophenia

Magic isn't real, but it is a useful category for describing what happens when an actor disappears into a role. I don't mean that metaphorically. I mean the primary function of magic as a material practice is in putting so much of your pussy into something that, for a little bit, it is completely real to everyone involved.

[cryptotheism]

Who are some of the scholars who inspire you? are they scholars you aspire to be like or are they scholars you just admire for the quality of their work? I don’t know how big the occultism field is but do you have like a favorite living occultist? also I love your work so much, you’re very cool

I think my favorite living academic writer is Prof. Gideon Bohak. His book Ancient Jewish Magic simultaneously converses with experts and layman, both deep and approachable, while betraying an infectious enthusiasm for the subject matter. The gold standard of academic writing. It's been a signpost for my own work.

As for favorite contemporary occultist it's gotta be Daniel Schulke.

[cryptotheism]

Its very interesting to me how people come into your asks thinking they can gain knowledge/instructions for "Actual Magic" as if you believe in the same Magic that they do despite a lot of times saying that you dont.

Do you think its a healthy way to study occultism/live in general?

I regularly get messages from people saying they developed an appreciation for history and the genealogy of ideas because of my posting. That's really all I want. I want people to develop a rigorous love for the world around them. I want to give people the tools they need to approach the sources.

[cryptotheism]

what is the most uh. what is the. in terms of esoteric magic and alchemy and shit. what is the most. how many basically uh. and maybe even who many. has anybody ever come up with that before? they always ask how many, but what about who many? anyway, when, where, etc., in terms of esoteric, magical, alchemy and shit, kabbalah, tantric rituals. Gnosticism.

Well basically it goes back to the uh, Egyptians. They were like, the first place to have uh, many. And you had all the like, uh, with the Greeks and Hebrews, and then you had rome and Byzantium, but the interesting was in the Arab world. And back, then in the Renaissance you had bunch of uh, like, more. And many people. The enlightenment was a bottleneck that decreased the overall, like, you know. But the victorians brought it back. Crowley happened. Then mass media. Neopaganism. Chaos Magic. The internet.

[cryptotheism]

Originally the title of the book was gonna be Where to Begin With Magic but Lowkey that question has an answer. It's Plato. You start with Plato. I hate titles. I suck at titles.

[cryptotheism]

Hey CT, I think I remember you mentioning that tarot was a good beginning to sort of esoteric or occult thinking. Any particular recommendations or thoughts on where to get started with it?

Purchase a Rider-Waite-Smith

Practice with the deck while learning about the symbology and history of the deck.

Repeat until you can read the cards without having to look up their meanings.

Send me another ask discussing your experience.

[cryptotheism]

Very new to this occult/spirituality stuff (I think I’m calling it the right thing). I had a lot of fun with tarot cards and kinda wanted to learn more about things surrounding magic and the like, if not to get more into it then to at least find out more about it. Unfortunately google is a bitch and doesn’t give straight answers anymore (been getting a lot of the “this is a 5 page article for a 1 sentence definition” type stuff) and from what I understand the tiktok communities surrounding magic suck ass so I was wondering if you knew where to look?

Start with YouTube channels like ESOTERICA or Let's Talk Religion. They'll give you all the fun history background that's necessary to even like, know what you're looking at. An idea or two will probably catch your fancy, at which point you can dive into primary sources!

[cryptotheism]

How do cards gain meaning in an occult sense? Like, both tarot and french-suited playing cards started as game pieces, but they have gained an understood meaning. Is it just someone whips up an organized table of connected ideas or is each card interpreted from a certain framework?

Oh good question!

Many things that we now consider staples of western magic are ideas that have been added to over generations by several layers of thinkers. Tarot Divination specifically is an excellent example of this!

In 1770, A french printmaker and occultist going by Etteilla published a book about how to do cartomancy with a 32-card Piquet deck. He writes down some simple but strict associations for the cards, and makes what is probably the first mention of reversals in carotmancy. He said that he learned the system "from an Italian." Now, its unclear how much of the system is his own invention, people have been doing cartomancy for as long as there's been cards, but the text presents a larval, bare-bones version of the cartomancy methods we know and love today.

Its 1780-ish. The Rosetta stone hasn't been discovered yet. Occult-inclined Europeans are obsessed with Egypt. That's where our boy Trismegistus is from! There's a concept in Egyptian mythology called The Book of Thoth, a mythical book of spells penned by the God of Knowledge himself. This was the Holy Grail for European Occult Egpytaboos.

In 1781, Antoine Court de Gébelin claimed that Tarot cards were the "original book of Thoth," Saying that Tarot cards had been used by ancient Egyptian priests for their own magical ceremonies, and that their designs contained ancient mystical secrets. This is 100% not true, but he writes a pretty fun pseudohistory for Tarot that involves Romani people bringing the decks to Europe through the Levant where they then taught its esoteric secrets to several Popes.

Then in 1783, Ettellia responded with another book. Manière de se récréer avec le jeu de cartes nommées tarots ("Way to recreate yourself with the deck of cards called tarots") Where Ettellia basically claims "uhm actually I knew about tarot divination way before Court de Gebelin published that big ass book. But anyway here's an interpretation of Tarot symbology that includes multiple references to Egyptian, Zoroastrian, and Greek mythology." But the smartest thing he did was include spread methods that involved Thoth and Numerology. Napoleonic Occultists fucking loved Thoth and numerology.

In 1788, he formed a little magical society for the express purpose of discussing and workshopping ideas for Tarot divination. In 1789, he made a TRULY smart decision, and published a Tarot deck that was Specifically For Magic, and that basically cemented Tarots place in magical history.

Occultists just kept iterating! Someone would speculate "maybe the suits correspond to the elements" and people went "yeah, they correspond to the elements! That makes this tool even more fun and interesting to use!" Then people go "What if the suits and the elements also correspond to parts of the Self?" and people went "Sure they do! That makes this tool even more interesting!"

But its also not just one thread. Eventually you get the Golden Dawn saying "The Major Arcana correspond to the nodes and paths on our version of the Quabbalistic Sefirot, you know, the hermetic version with a Q." and some occultists responded "Idk about that! Love what you've done with the color symbology though!"

The development of magical ideas is an iterative process. It is people whipping up a table of correspondences, but that table needs a mythology to keep it together. Originally, the mythology that gave tarot "power" was its Egyptian pseudohistory, but these days its the fact that occultists have been iterating on and fine-tuning this system for hundreds of years.

Humans don't think in tables of information, they think in stories. The cool thing about stories is that they're flexible. If magic is anything, its learning how to engineer stories to make the tables of information more effective.

I'm gonna plug my patreon where I post all of my occult research if you wanna see more stuff like this