#age of analyzing.

[bewitchedbranch]

“Ansbach is dishonest!” and this is how he is regarded by the text and Leda and Freyja:

Additionally, here is some dialogue from him that reflects more of his views on both Miquella and Leda:

To nip “but he’s done violent things” in the bud, I’ll just say so has nearly every single other character. The few that are not violent, especially in the DLC, are the exception, not the rule.

[bewitchedbranch]

My second biggest argument against the charm is that it really does nothing to save anyone from pain.

I’m someone with a lot of mental health issues, some of which I actually saw reflected within those trying to follow Miq in LOS. I understand the appeal of having a magic bandaid to all of my pain ever being applied on a deep level, and I can’t say I wouldn’t be tempted if Miquella approached me and offered to rid me of my problems to the point I completely forgot about them.

But that isn’t fixing things. That isn’t giving people the time to learn, grow, and heal. It’s not even a bandaid, it’s throwing a rug on top a pile of broken glass and hoping nobody notices. The moment the charm is broken for any reason, they’re reverted back to where they used to be.

Paranoia to the extent you can’t even trust those who are your closest companions.

Grieving your slaughtered family and people, having no idea how to process it on your own as that pain consumes you.

The belief that your birth was something wrong and having no idea why, not understanding why your mother abandoned you and struggling to move past that to the point you think you need to devote yourself to another god and rely on him for your sense of self worth rather than address it.

Suicidal depression from a lifetime of abuse, to the point where you were constantly chasing after a form of magic that made you feel like you were dead. Thing is, Miquella didn’t even address any of that— he only made it so Thiollier forgot about Trina, nothing more. Which left Thiollier feeling lost and aimless, stuck in the idea that he’s worthless. Arguably amongst the most selfish usages of the charm shown in canon. And if we already see the charm being used to not help the person and instead help Miquella, then yeah, we do need to worry about what could happen when Miq’s ability to doubt himself and feel love is removed entirely.

This pain can very easily start anew at any moment. For any reason whatsoever. But without the charm, Thiollier is able to grow past his mindset because we were there. Us having a confrontation with him made him understand that his idealization of Trina as a Saint rather than a person was wrong. We did help him grow and begin to heal because we were willing to confront the ugly parts of mental health that many are afraid to. And we still took him on as not just an ally, but a friend.

That is real, far more than the ‘fixes’ the charm would offer. That is what people actually need, and it is worth the journey.

It is sad to think about this from multiple perspectives. The charm can be broken at any time for any reason, pushing back those who had suffered so greatly back to square one with no tools to deal with their pain. Miquella believed this was the only way he could help even one of his most loyal of knights. It all reminds me of the concept of “drinking to forget” in both what the charm does and how deeply unhealthy + unhelpful it truly is.

And how can I trust a God unable to love, unable to ever doubt himself with any decision, let alone with what he considers helping others in his flawed idea of an Age of Compassion? How can I trust that one day the charm wouldn’t once again break for some reason, leading those who were charmed to revert back to how they used to be— pain, suffering, anger, malice, all of it. This isn’t even going into how I think Miquella’s willingness to use this power prior to becoming a God time and time again- especially for selfish reasons -is a really fucking bad sign. Every single aspect of the charm is deeply flawed, just as the Age of Compassion. As fascinating as his powers are from a character analysis standpoint, it is awful.

[bewitchedbranch]

What's your interpretation of Messmer's relationship with Marika ? Especially at the end of his life? I've seen many people saying that Messmer didn't curse Marika in his dying breath and that he is saying that he became a curse upon her now. Which doesn't make sense to me ? I am not expert in the old-Shakespearean English, but when he said "mother a curse upon thee" wasn't like him saying a curse upon you mother?

You know, anon, I was quite literally just thinking about this very topic right before I saw this initially! Funny how that works.

Anyways, I will be upfront in what I believe the most; Marika loves Messmer, and Messmer loves Marika. Despite his final words, he will always love her.

I noticed that there was such a stark contrast between quite literally everything we know of Messmer’s viewpoint of her up until that point and hell, even after. Which feels rather significant.

This is going to be a long one anon, so buckle in.

I brought up in my post about the serpents that the base serpent is likely also connected with darker thoughts and impulses + feelings of rage considering how the dynamic between it and the winged serpents are described, being akin to an intrusive thought. I do think that the nature of it, paired with how Messmer was very potentially separated from his mother for hundreds of years + the fact he’s likely in the worst physical pain of his entire life, any sort of potential resentment at being alone, grief and overall anger would have been naturally amplified.

I’ve also seen others suggest that the curse is more directed at us, and that just before he does so, he calls out to Marika.

(“Mother… Marika…

A curse… upon thee…”)

Which does make sense, given the blatant dislike he shows to the tarnished vs the sheer reverence he displays towards Marika. I wouldn’t be shocked if this were the case. Though, I’ve heard the JP text is different and I do have a fondness for the tragedy of the former.

Whatever the answer is, I remain confident in my belief that he does not hate her nor that he ever will. If he did genuinely feel that way, we’d likely see more evidence pointing towards that within item descriptions and environmental cues— after all, Messmer’s boss arena has one of the only (if not THE only) statue of Marika in LoS with its head intact, and it is a completely unique one as well, smiling at him and him alone. That alone is huge.

I also brought up the Amphisbaena in one of my previous posts and how it correlates more to Marika and Messmer’s dynamic. It is featured in a proverb that states, "to the amphisbaena, Perseus is good", which connects to how it will always see its creator in a loving, positive light, even if Perseus made it through the killing of Medusa. This is a factor in why I believe that he still loves her as well. That sort of symbolism fits very well with his character in that, no matter what may happen, no matter if he should despise her or not, he will always view her as good.

There’s more in-game evidence to support that he does as well, of course. Messmer’s bossfight is centered around fulfilling his duty to Marika above all else. His troops worship her with reverence, viewing her as a gracious mother to all. His eye, which is one of her scarseals, can be found in the base game with the description of “These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods,” which implies a mutuality between them as well, Marika making him her “chosen” even with the base serpent bringing her fear. Perhaps not as relevant, but the scarseal does take on the more vivid coloration of Marika’s Rune, which has the description of, “Golden remnants of the grace personally bestowed by Queen Marika to the heroes who joined the crusade for her. Use to gain 80000 runes. The brilliance of Queen Marika's grace blinds even the very best.” Which does further that devotion angle— and that even with the genuine loyalty, it’s still something that blinds him. Crazy how his eye can say so much about both himself and Marika as characters.

Adding onto the mutuality of it all is the Blessing of Marika, all of which were made to ease his pain. All for his sake. The Black Knights have the Gold Breaker skill, which you find on Marika’s hammer. There’s clearly a close bond between the two that is not shared by any of Messmer’s siblings, only Godwyn coming close. There’s more to it, of course, but if I list off every example we’d be here all day.

Now, specifically towards the end of his life, I view him desperately clinging onto his duty. He’s exhausted, he’s hurting so much, he misses Marika more than everything and sequesters himself all alone, sitting at one of the only statues of her that doesn’t have its head chopped off. It smiles at him warmly, forever, and he’ll speak to it from time to time because what else can he do?

It hurts. He’s tired. But he’s her chosen and he will serve her. He misses her so he will serve her. He hates that he can’t feel her embrace anymore, rather than cold, unfeeling stone. He sequesters himself in his chambers because he has grown tired of of slaughter, slaughter, slaughter, and hearing the endless desires of vengeance and his demise exhausts him further. Is Mother tired, too? Does she find purpose in this, anymore? Please tell him that she does.

If he cannot be guided by her any longer, then he will be without purpose. If she is not there to tell him to rest, if she is not there to tell him to continue, then what is there for him? Who is he, without the hate he’s surrounded by? Who is he without her word? He cannot even feel the warmth of her embrace anymore. He’s tired. He misses her, and the serpents coil around his heart and they want to tear her apart for abandoning him. It hurts. He’s tired. He curls up at the foot of her statue and talks to the air. He’s nothing without her, he’s nothing—

All there is now, and has been for centuries, is oblivion.

Their dynamic, befitting of his name, is messy. Messy, complex, strange and concerning especially given all the atrocities committed along the way. But there is still love.

[bewitchedbranch]

While I’m very much fond of differing interpretations, that doesn’t mean there aren’t things that are just not canon. And if you ask me, one of these examples is the idea that Miquella enchanted Mohg after he was taken from the Haligtree. There’s a good amount of evidence pointing against it both in-game and on a meta level, such as:

— Ansbach and Leda’s accounts.

Ansbach states that he had challenged Miquella, and got hit with the bewitchment in the process. This goes against the idea that Miquella had been cocooned based on that— you can’t exactly have a fight with someone in that state.

Then, Leda’s knowledge of this occurrence- and the specific fact Miquella himself was cleaved open -goes against that concept as well. If he was cocooned, unable to leave, how in the world would have Leda known? There is nothing to suggest that there is any way for her to know such an obscure fact about the internal going-ons of a very secretive blood cult outside of being informed by Miquella himself. Not only that, why would she not mention the cocoon, or that Ansbach was fighting someone who acted on self-defense and nothing but? Given everything we know about her (and how she views Ansbach as well), I find it very hard to believe she wouldn’t bring up those factors at all… if they were even factors in the first place.

This puts the bewitchment as occurring prior to the kidnapping.

— The way the story presents it.

How a story is framed very easily can inform us of how we view certain occurrences. Not once is Ansbach framed as a liar, the description of his weapon even going out of the way to say that there is “no trickery”. Hell, everybody, including Leda herself, refers to him as an honorable man. It’s not as if the story is framing him in the same manner as it presented Varré’s shadiness, either.

He also has no reason to lie after recalling what was very likely the worst experience of his life, and given how his dialogue is delivered there’s nothing to suggest that he’s not being entirely truthful. His quest is very emotionally written, it wants us to understand that Miquella has done an incredible wrong, one that no matter how another may feel about the Dynasty, was too far. It wants us to understand and sympathize.

It’s to the point where, even if Ansbach died at any point and his quest failed, you can still summon a Sanguine Noble to fight the final boss. I find it seriously hard to believe that From would be this adamant about how you’re supposed to view Miquella’s treatment of Mohg wrong and do it so unsubtly if he got bewitched out of self-defense and nothing but. Why would they incorporate that as a “back-up” in case Ansbach died if we’re supposed to think that Mohg kidnapped Miquella out of his free will?

— Just a side note, but look at the emblem of the Pureblood Knights on Ansbach’s outfit vs the one on the medal we get. The latter is a redesign that incorporates lilies, which seems to symbolize Miquella’s greater presence within the dynasty.

— Other arguments.

I also see arguments that ask, “why would Miquella do the Haligtree if he wanted to get kidnapped by Mohg?” And the answer is simple;

The Haligtree failed.

A canonical fact. Nothing says that Mohg himself was the cause of the Haligtree’s failure. In fact, given the state its in due to the Rot, I would argue that to be one of the primary reasons it failed. It makes sense that Miquella would view Mohg as a backup plan. The Haligtree also relies on something very similar to the blood offerings we see cocooned Miquella being given at the Dynasty; the Haligtree was grown from his own blood and, in the cocoon, he was being “fed” his own blood.

Forgive me for not being able to find the HQ version of this image I had saved, But in the introductory cutscene where we see these two for the first time, Miquella’s cocoon is depicted as having blood come out of it rather than anything to do with Mohg. This furthers the idea that Miquella was doing the same thing that ended up occurring at Mohgwyn, but with his own blood.

Then, I see, “but Mohg behaves so possessive over Miquella and no other has! That means he HAD to have kidnapped Miquella without any influence and it means he was abusing Miquella!” Which has another counter presented by SOTE itself;

Miquella’s bewitchment isn’t “you will want to marry me and fall in love”, rather it just makes you automatically like him and feel devoted to him. However, it comes with two additional effects:

1- You will forget something of Miquella’s choosing.

A common theme we see with each bewitched NPC is that they suddenly remembered something they forgot once the charm breaks. This typically has to do with a traumatic event or something similar, but it has been used in pragmatic ways as well, such as Ansbach completely forgetting that he ever stood against Miquella, or Thiollier forgetting Saint Trina in her entirety. These are things that would- and do -rally them to fight against Miquella.

2- The suppression of emotions/behaviors.

Now, while I have to review dialogue to make extra sure that I know if there’s someone I’m missing, but it seems that most, if not all of the charmed NPCs had certain emotions/behaviors of theirs suppressed. Leda had her paranoia + murderous tendencies removed, Moore had his depression and feelings of being unloved removed, Hornsent had his sheer rage and need for vengeance removed (which goes hand-in-hand with Miq making him forget the deaths of his family- or potentially his family in its entirety), Ansbach had his fear of Miquella removed, Freyja and Thiollier are the ones I’m not too sure about (though thinking about it, Freyja is waaaay more battlehungry post-charm-break, and perhaps Thiollier’s devotion was what was suppressed as well)…

But with these facts in mind, do you know what this means?

Miquella very easily could’ve prevented Mohg from doing anything he wasn’t okay with. He had all the tools and abilities to do so. Miquella could’ve made sure that Mohg wasn’t possessive, just as he made sure Leda wasn’t paranoid. Nothing was stopping Miquella from not enabling those behaviors— it seems to me that he was perfectly content with everything occurring. It’d be strange for him to suddenly not use the thing that allows him to get exactly what he wants out of someone if he’s in danger.

There’s also how nobody at the Haligtree seems concerned that he was taken against his will— Malenia, the soldiers, Leda (as she never once brings it up as a point against Mohg), and even that one ghost at the snowfields that witnessed Miquella being taken to the Dynasty. That guy, while angry, seemed far more enraged that an Omen with accursed blood would dare to touch Miquella’s “sacred flesh” rather than upset that his lord was being kidnapped. If this was against Miquella’s will, there would’ve been some sort of mention of it but no, each and every one of them was merely waiting for his return.

Additionally, I believe Miquella most likely made this plan before he hopped into the cocoon— it makes sense for him to tell the already bewitched Mohg who has visited the Haligtree, “if something goes wrong outside, I need you to save me”.

This isn’t even going into the “whys” behind Miquella would bewitch Mohg before the cocooning, but those are mostly theories rather than complete gatherings of canonical facts… if that makes sense.

Each of these are all just off the top of my head, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more.

[bewitchedbranch]

Something I adore is how Leda is what one would likely expect a Mohg follower to be like, and that Ansbach is what one would likely expect a Miquella follower to be like.

While I wasn’t too surprised by either of their behaviors (Mohg’s primary goal being to help the downtrodden and oppressed is genuine so yeah of course a noble and honorable man like Ansbach would be drawn to him, and Leda unnerved me from the start due to how her armor clashed with the more simple attire Miquella wore, how the Miquellan Knight Sword implies that there are no knights “of” Miquella, and how her appearance seemed eerily modeled after Miquella’s own), it’s still such an excellent twist on audience expectations. It makes you reconsider both the groups that would be drawn to our favorite cult-leading demigods and those demigods themselves.

For example, I’m a fan of how Miquella did genuinely seem to care for Leda, gifting her a “gentle gold to bring a soft hue to her faded eyes”. It seems to me that he genuinely wished to help her and give her some sort of hope. This gentleness, of course, is contrasted by how Leda was willing to kill the rest of the Needle Knights out of what seems to be the same sort of paranoia that they would betray their lord that we see in the game proper. Arguably, I would say that this was the only “good” usage of Miquella’s charm that we ever see, as he uses it pretty much just to calm her the hell down.

Then, Ansbach makes you consider how Mohg had to have been shockingly decent in order to not only have someone like him as the leader of the Pureblood Knights, but to have Ansbach trust him so dearly. Yeah, of course Ansbach has likely done bad things (most Elden Ring characters have!) but his principles and ideals gives us a good idea of what Mohg was like prior to being bewitched— a lord who sought to dismantle the rule of “gods” and put “man” at the forefront.

EDIT: Another fun point of comparison is how there’s no more Needle Knights because Leda killed them all VS how there’s no more Pureblood Knights because Ansbach challenged an Empyrean by himself in order to free his lord from his grasp.

(There’s a lot that could be said about how Mohg is arguably more genuine than Miquella ever was, as well. For example, while we find albinaurics all over the Dynasty, not only are there none whatsoever in the Haligtree but Miquella also had to have seen and outright ignore the ones being tortured in Castle Sol. There are no Hornsent at all in the Haligtree either and, oddly enough, the misbegotten we see in the Haligtree town are strangely absent from Elphael. The ghost that yells at Mohg seems more concerned about someone with “accursed blood” touching Miquella’s “pure flesh” rather than genuine concern for their lord seemingly being kidnapped. I could go on and on, but that’s a post for another day.)

[bewitchedbranch]

Thiollier is incredibly fascinating to me, as his devotion to Saint Trina and his personality/dialogue leaves a lot unsaid, yet we can learn so much about him.

He is self-loathing, believing that from the very beginning he was worthless. Weak and an idiot only good for making poisons. This isn’t a belief that could have sprouted up from nowhere, whatever environment he had to have been raised in surely instilled and reinforced this idea in him. It’s up in the air what exactly led to him feeling this way about himself, but I do read it as Thiollier being a victim of abuse.

Then, Saint Trina has practically always been representative of addiction, both in the base game and in DLC. Hell, cut content would’ve made this theme even more obvious, with Rhico’s questline and the existence of Dreambrew— something that is pretty much just a form of alcohol. She genuinely desires to help, Trina does not mean ill will and wishes to grant respite to those suffering. However, as this respite is this inherently addictive thing that can prove to be rather dangerous— if you go too far, imbibe too much nectar, you are plunged into endless sleep, the closest thing to death offered in The Lands Between.

Thiollier was able to experience the “sweet repose of velvety sleep” only once. It’s different from the typical rest offered by Trina’s followers, likely stemming directly from the saint herself. And after experiencing it, he has spent the rest of his life chasing after it again. Desperate to be put at rest, to forget all his worries and woes and forget about his miserable life in the waking world.

Thiollier can’t stand himself, ever scorned and loathed.

It’s no wonder why he feels this arguably obsessive love towards Trina, and why he gets so angry with us for being able to speak with her. He wants to her to smile for him and him alone, to be the only one of the already very few allowed to experience the true rest she creates. Trina is one of the only ones who ever made him feel at ease, the only one to make him feel special and worthy of something, and he idolizes her. And she knows this, which is why she ends up speaking to us rather than him. She knows that his idolization would also lead to him being unwilling to accept the idea of needing to kill Miquella until it’s too late. But just as she does for all others, she still cares for him in her own way.

I do think too that Trina knows of how addictive her sleep can be, but I feel that, based off the description of the Lulling Branch, she desires to give people the will to wake up, to gather the strength to continue on living. I should make a post about Trina herself, eventually.

[bewitchedbranch]

A disjointed, incomplete list of evidence that points to Mohg and Miquella actively and willingly interacting with each other:

• The Writheblood Ruins is a location that holds symbols for the both of them. There is a Sanguine Noble, there are numerous sprouts of Sacramental Buds growing here (which as we know, contain Miquella’s own blood), there is the Bloody Helice, a weapon carried by the Nobles that is in the shape of a helix- Miquella symbolism -and essentially functions as a weaponized form of one of his needles, designed to bore into flesh just as they are.

• Mohg is referred to by name by a follower of Miquella’s, when his name is so unknown by the public that not even Gideon has heard of it. This implies a notable familiarity… especially since, given where the Haligtree is located, Mohg couldn’t have just popped up there one day uninvited. He not only had to get a medallion, he had to go through the secret passage, Ordina and through that teleporter to the Haligtree/Elphael itself. This is something Miquella had to have allowed, considering what it takes to go there. And Miquella… must’ve spent substantial time with him there for any random follower to recognize him as Mohg rather than the Lord of Blood.

• The teleporter to Mohgwyn built near enough to the Haligtree is additional proof of this. Do you think that it went completely unnoticed by everyone who lived there? Especially the likes of the Cleanrots, the Needle Knights, Malenia and Leda? Or you know, not noticed by Miquella. He is a very aware person, he’s traveled all around the Snowfields, he would know.

• The blood association. They both utilize blood very prominently in their magic. Guys. Why do we not talk about this.

• Ansbach challenged Miquella and cleaved him open. Not the cocoon, Miquella himself. He got charmed. Then, Leda somehow learned about this fact after the event. How would any of that happen if Miquella was kidnapped, in his cocoon, and asleep? It couldn’t. The wording makes it clear Miquella was active and awake at this point. The fact that Leda knows about firmly sets it in being before he was cocooned, too— because she, someone that was not involved in the Dynasty herself, genuinely would have no way of knowing that it happened unless Miquella himself told her. Which also means he was free to come and go from the palace grounds as he pleased.

• Additionally, after this event is likely when the medal for the Purebloods had been changed, as the modern one holds a depiction of lilies upon it.

• “A sovereign alliance rots from within. Traces yet remain of a bloody conspiracy.” Do I even have to say anything.

[bewitchedbranch]

Honestly I’m surprised by the amount of people who think Mohg’s character was at all reduced by the DLC— if anything, the introduction of a character like Ansbach and the reveal that he was bewitched adds a lot to his story.

I wonder if there’s any correlation between those who believe his character was taken away from and those who very staunchly believed that he kidnapped Miquella all on his own? Because in my personal experience, I’m someone who always thought it was more likely that it was either a mutual agreement or manipulation + bewitchment on Miquella’s end rather than kidnapping— otherwise, there’s a lot going on in terms of the environment and story details that just don’t make sense (IE; why is nobody at the Haligtree concerned about there being a kidnapping, and are simply waiting for Miquella to come back)! And also, since GRRM has a quote discussing how he’s not fond of the “here’s the good guys, they dress in white and look pretty while the bad guys dress in black and are ugly” trope, I would’ve been more shocked if that was played straight and it WAS a kidnapping.

Another thing, I fell in love with his character before I knew anything about his involvement with Miquella. Varré’s quest, the subtle buildup of his presence you see throughout the world of the game and the characterization it provides! As soon as I saw the Bloodroses for the first time, I knew he was going to be a favorite of mine. They alone clue us in on so much about him as a character, painting this mysterious Lord of Blood as a romantic, but morbid figure.

He has so much character without Miquella, he has a fully fleshed out backstory that I can’t help but to adore. Then, the DLC comes in and makes you confront any pre-conceived notions of what Mohgwyn was like prior to Miquella, it makes you ask what this blood cult was like before it got extra bloody, it makes you ask where this love for Miquella came from, and so on. I personally subscribe to “it was a combination of genuine manipulation from Miq’s end along with bewitchment— which played horribly well with Mohg’s idea of and need for love”, but there’s so many ways you can go about it! So many fun possibilities to explore that add further depth to these characters and their relationship!

So I find it surprising as hell that people would think the DLC took anything away from his character, when it really just fleshed him out further.