I had a few other thoughts about the scene between Carol and Daryl when Daryl asks her about the king. So here's the dialogue:
Carol: You've been out here longer than I thought you'd be, longer than you said you'd be.
Daryl: yeah. I like it. It's quiet. *a few second pause* How's the king?
Carol: Having a hard time letting go. Taking Henry to Hilltop. He wants to apprentice at the smithy.
1) From the progression of the conversation, Daryl's mind is going from thinking to being out there to thinking about Ezekiel. To me, this indicates that there is a connection between Carol's relationship with Ezekiel and Daryl's choice to be out there alone. I don't think Daryl is still actively looking for Rick's body at this point. After 6 years, if his body was out there, he'd be unrecognizable. So I do think that this self-imposed isolation is connected to his difficulty dealing with Carol's relationship.
2) When Daryl asks Carol about the king, her response is entirely about Henry. She doesn't even say, "oh, he's doing well." She cuts right to the chase about Henry. This is just another bit of evidence that shows that Carol's relationship with Ezekiel is very much centered around Henry. I would speculate that Carol is going to have a hard time when she goes back to the Kingdom and it's just her and Ezekiel because I don't think she has that base of a relationship with Ezekiel when Henry is not there. She'll be experiencing some major empty nest syndrome.
Things will never be the same for Caryl...and that’s a GOOD thing.
I don’t blame anyone for feeling warry with what’s happening between Carol and Daryl this season. We love those two on screen and it hurts to see them at odds with each other and to see Carol at odds with herself. We’re in full on angst mode at the moment.
Norman said in an interview that “the relationship [between Carol and Daryl], is definitely not the same relationship anymore.” He compares their dynamic to the rift between Rick and Daryl - and yes, Daryl is completely pissed at Carol.
In my opinion, he has a right to be. Carol acted reckless and put people’s lives at risk for the sake of vengeance. Yes, Carol is a grieving mother and is going through shit that makes her actions understandable. However, it doesn’t make her actions right. Daryl has done his best to be there for Carol, and he’s given her multiple opportunities to open up and make better decisions, but she keeps backing out on her promises. It’s understandable why there is currently a rift and why the relationship between the two will never be the same.
I understand why this would cause some Carylers to be worried. BUT...
I actually think it’s a really really good thing that Norman said their “relationship is definitely not the same relationship” anymore. For 10 years, we’ve been waiting for their relationship to go cannon. Well, news flash, for 10 years, their relationship has been the same. Not stagnant, of course, but not really progressing either. In order for their relationship to progress, it has to change. And this rift between them is what will ignite that change.
If Daryl and Carol were all peachy keen and rainbows right now, I would be worried. We’re only mid-season, and a story needs to complete an arch. If we were in a good place now, chances are we’d end the season in a bad place. The fact that we’re in a bad place now, means that, hopefully, by the end of the season, we’ll have reached the opposite.
And yes, I think that Daryl and Carol’s relationship will NEVER be the same. Something has to change. How unsatisfying would it be if we had 10 seasons of Carol and Daryl being best friends, then they fight, and then they make up and it just goes back to same old same old. Or they fight and never makeup and never share any type of bond again. Please, like AMC would destroy of their key marketing ploys. Rifts and conflict only makes for good tv when you know there is a satisfying conclusion. Caryl has to fight, they have to makeup, and they have to PROGRESS to something different (aka, cannon here we come, thank you very much).
Now, to address the D*onnie of it all....
I like C*onnie. I hope she’s alive, she’s a great character in my opinion because she serves to show how kindness and gentleness can still survive in this harsh world, and how having a disability doesn’t have to be a weakness. However, in my opinion, it wouldn’t make sense for D*onnie to happen. Why? Well, we’ve been told that Daryl cares for her (not by him but by Carol, I might add), but we’ve been shown that Daryl cares for Carol.
I think it would be sloppy exposition to have Daryl choose C*onnie. Great storytelling happens when you show, not tell.
Wow, this got long. Anyway...long story short, I have a lot of hope for Carol and for Caryl and I agree with Norman that their relationship will never be the same. Change is good. We just have to get through the conflict first so we can get to the resolution.
This was touched upon already in some of the very in-depth analyses of the scene between Carol and Daryl in 9x01, but I just want to add a little more of my thoughts into the mix.
So I’m focusing specifically on the bit at the end when Daryl asks Carol if she wants him to stay there with her at the Sanctuary. It’s very interesting to me that he chooses the moment that he did to ask that question. He could have asked her that right after Carol said she wanted to take over at the Sanctuary. But he didn’t. He asks her that after Carol says that she doesn’t know why she didn’t say yes to Ezekiel.
When Daryl asked her “Why didn’t ya?”, it seems to me that he’s trying to be nonchalant, not looking at her as he waits to hear her answer. But as others have already commented, Daryl asked Carol that question VERY quickly after Carol said that part of her wanted to say yes (which suggests that it is quite an important question to him).
Back to my point about the timing of Daryl asking if she wanted him to stay:
Daryl is very observant (though the walking dead writers tend to forget this). I suspect that Daryl noticed Carol’s hesitancy mentioning the proposal. I think as he was listening to her express doubt, it gave him a little bit of hope to hear that. Like he’s thinking, “Maybe this relationship isn’t all that solid if she is hesitant to say yes to him and if she can’t explain why she said no. Maybe if I spend more time with her away from the King she’ll change her mind about being with him. Maybe I still have a chance with her.”
I wonder about this being a possible motivation, apart from just wanting to be near her because he misses her, for wanting to stay at the Sanctuary with her.
I tried to reblog the post from @reallypleasantflower but Tumblr didn’t let me (as always, everytime I talk too much).
So, I’m doing a separate post about what @dixonrocks88 @hippyheartsoul @theskepticalhousewife and @detective-pookie-dixon pointed out that I was discussing with @proudcaryler earlier.
Read more because it’s a little big lol.
And because if you are a fan from Daryl or Norman, you might want to skip it, because there are some criticism of both actor and character :)
Also, it’s not a positive post, so...
I agree and disagree with many points, but first I gotta say something: It’s great to finally see people acknowledging that they are disappointed and that they don’t trust in Canon Caryl anymore. Like I said other times, I love how much this fandom is positive and tries, all the time, to lift everyone’s spirit. I think I never crossed with a fandom that is so smart, funny and interesting, as this one. But I also know that a lot of us are tired and it’s hanging on this ship by a thread. And after everything we had to put up with, I don’t judge and don’t think we are wrong.
Said that, I just wanted to add my two cents on this:
What I disagree is:
I don’t think NR has any say on how things play out on screen. He might not like it, but phrasing @proudcaryler , if TPTB tells him to kiss a squirrel, the end, he will have to do it, even if he doesn't want to. It’s his job, and people need to remember that Daryl just exists because AMC/TPTB created him. NR was struggling in his career before The Walking Dead. Being practical (and not dismissing his job at all), AMC wouldn’t ever let NR control a character that brings them so much money. He can have a say in one thing or two, but in the end, he isn’t the one deciding it. The fault on why the Daryl we felt in love with is gone is only on the writers.
I don’t think NR doesn’t want Caryl because Melissa is not a young actress or that he would rather have himself hooking up with a young actress on screen. The first one because, honestly, Melissa and him are really really close friends, is clear that they love each other and respect each other, and I don’t think NR would risk lose a friendship that seems so important to him because of a thing like that. If that was the real reason why he doesn’t want Caryl, I firmly believe that Melissa and him wouldn’t be so close as they are. I certainly wouldn’t want to be friends with a guy with such an ageist behavior. NR has a lot of experience playing the most different kinds of characters, so honestly, I don’t think he doesn’t want Caryl because Carol is 50 years old. And I honestly don’t believe he wants to hook up with a young actress on screen either. Hence his disgust when Still was misconducted as an episode with romantic undertones. Hence how upset he was when he realized that all his work was reduced to a “ship” thing.
and this leaves room for...
What I agree is:
Talking about Norman:
NR doesn’t want Caryl. Because NR doesn’t want Daryl with anyone. I was having this discussion another day with someone (I forgot who was it, sorry!). Reedus always played characters that were extremely sexual, in one way or another. He always played characters that had this element as a strong trait in their personality (at least, the movies I watched with him had this. If not him in a situation like that, you could see that the character had a confidence and a charm related to that). And then Daryl happened. Daryl was different. @saedhriel showed me an interview a couple days ago where Norman said that he loved this duality between evil and good, and characters who we can’t exactly label as one thing or the other. Daryl is the the definition of this. Or was at least. And suddenly, NR saw himself in the middle of the “love” story from TWD. Because Caryl is, until now, the main relationship of the show, even if they aren’t indeed a couple. We have Glaggie, but they are already established as couple since early on, so they didn’t pick the media interest. There wasn’t something to be discuss there, they were already what they were. And Richonne is starting to gain visibility only now, because Michonne only came to the story on season 3 and only started to develop a relationship with Rick in late season 4. ( And because TPTB thought it was going to be a good idea throwing Jessick at us, but that’s another story...).
Caryl is always talked about as one of the main subjects of TWD and is always discussed about as something important to the show. And I think this wasn’t what NR expected for. And that’s where I enter in something that I define as “NR and his two sides”. lol
On one hand, Reedus knows his character and he knows the importance Caryl has on Daryl. The relationship is not only about a ship thing, but it’s a part of their story. Daryl and Carol wouldn’t be who they are today if the other wasn’t present in their storyline. Norman knows it, and that’s why I believe that if TPTB decides that Daryl has to be with someone romantically speaking, he would only want it with Carol. That’s explain why he tried to change so many thing that made Caryl what they are today. He knows Daryl, he knows Caryl, and he knows it’s importance. But if he could chose, he would rather have Daryl alone, for the reasons I said above. And for the reasons below, which I consider to be his other side.
NR likes the image Daryl has with the masses. He likes this image of “Reedus, who plays the Badass Daryl Dixon, from The Walking Dead”. We have to think that he was already giving up of his acting career (as he said on the same interview) and suddenly he is loved by almost everyone. I have to say, I would love to suddenly achieve everything that I always hoped for. So, that’s the Daryl he promotes. That’s the Daryl he talks about in interviews, that’s the Daryl he feeds the masses with. And that’s why this Daryl is so so disconnected with the Daryl we see on screen. And this Daryl, the one he likes to promote, needs to be alone and single. He can’t be romantic linked with someone else.
Talking about TPTB:
The moment Daryl Dixon became the phenomenon of the show, TPTB saw themselves in hard situation. What they are going to do with the character that brings them so many in terms of merchandise and ratings? Keep with the plan and continue to move the character forward, not caring about this sudden bust in his popularity? Or not taking risks and just invest on what people seem to love about him? Well, for me, from the moment TPTB saw themselves with this question on their faces and had doubts, they were already making a mistake. After they chose, they made things even worse.
Their approach is something that is reflected in all the segments of the show. They don’t want to risk something that it’s working with the audience. And by doing that, they ruin what once was working in the first place.
I believe that many factors influence on why TPTB is avoiding making Caryl happen in the first place. Daryl Dixon and how famous he got; how GA would receive a relationship between a middle age woman and the sex symbol of the show; Carol and the good reception that she is having with public/critics of the show as a symbol of feminism (because, you know, a woman who is strong and “badass” can’t be romantic linked with someone, because if they are, they won’t be strong and “badass” anymore).
But the big problem for me is that Caryl became a “plot twist” on the show. Caryl became something to not be “discussed about”, because that would be a “spoiler” and TWD praise themselves as a show where they are “unpredictable”. Caryl is merchandise those days. Caryl is something that brings visibility.
In a show where the main premise was human interactions, and relationships built on a situation where you don’t know if you will be alive the next day, one of the most beautiful relationships this said show had became just a “money” situation, and the course of the story and the impact that relationship have on the characters involved doesn't matter anymore.
I’m gonna say what @detective-pookie-dixon said above:
“Stop fucking teasing us about it. Stop giving us hope. Make it clear they are never going to happen so that I can cut my losses and move on”
I tried to reblog your Nonny about why the Caryl Easter eggs are always on the Daryl side of story, and not Carol’s, but tumblr doesn’t let me -.- @teamcarolbitch
Your headcanon is my headcanon as well, and honestly, I don’t think we are wrong. People (= haters) like to forget that Daryl was the one who reach out to her in the first place, the one who look after her first, and the one who cared about her first. And from that point to this day, TPTB always made clear how much Carol affects him, like you mentioned in all these perfect points.
Is not that I think Daryl loves Carol more. Because I truly don’t. But Carol it’s perfectly fine with them never become a thing IMO, and honestly, I believe she doesn’t expect him feeling for her the same things she feels for him. She just accepts that he is important, that she loves him more than she loves the others, and she accepts what he has to offer. She doesn’t entertain the idea of them together, because she doesn’t believe this is going to happen at all. Sometimes we tend to forget that Carol suffered years of having someone telling her that she wasn’t good enough, that she wasn’t pretty enough and that nobody would ever want her in that way.
Daryl, on the other hand, like you said, has more longing for her. Daryl never experienced romantic love (probably), so he doesn’t have so much control over what he feels. He can’t control the way he looks at her, the way he wants to be near her, the way he talks with her. While Carol always used words to describe how much Daryl means to her, you can see though each of his actions how much she is important to him. He can’t function well when she is not around. When he found her after Terminus, you could see Daryl becoming a totally different person. It was like his life was back on track and everything was sunshine and rainbows.
Like I said, it’s not about one loving the other more. It’s just that Carol doesn’t expect Daryl returning her feelings for him. Like, EVER. So, for her, loving him was always just this, her loving him and she manage to deal with that. Daryl, on the other hand, is like a kid. Not knowing quite well what to do with his feelings, not understanding them so well, and because he never experienced this before, he can’t control the hope he has, deep down, that they will be together at some point (even if he doesn’t know he has this hope). That’s why he shows much more than her.
And that’s why I believe those Easter eggs are always in his scenes. It shows this part of Daryl’s mind. It’s like us seeing what Carol represents to him through his eyes. Which means he sees Carol in everything lol.
I wish we could see more of Carol’s reaction about anything related to him too, tbh :(
Like when he went away with Merle. Or when she saw his crossbow.
But at the same time, I like that TPTB shows Daryl more “invested” on their bond, because Carol receives so much hate already, that this is like a punch in the face of the haters ☺️
Ok, so apparently Daryl won't be back to Alexandria on episode 7. If this information is correct, then Abe and Sasha will return without him. So, let's think for a moment. This Sunday we might have an idea if this separation of Caryl in 6a it's a deliberate move from TPTB to generate buzz around Caryl again. We remembered what their Reunion in "No Sanctuary" caused on th media. On the best scenario, the "Caryl Moment" will be something significant. Won't be just an Easter egg for the public, but something for Daryl, about his connection with Carol. This will give the public that feeling of "Huuumm, let's see how it's gonna be when he is back to ASZ" Ok Then, on episode 7, Sasha and Abe return without him. This will contrast a lot with Glenn returning from an almost certain death. Carol, for the first time, will assume that Daryl is dead. This will have a huge impact on her and will make the viewers expect even more for his return to ASZ. Finally, on MSF, or probably, on MSP, he will be back. And all this deliberate separation of them will make sense. I might be wrong, but I hope I'm not. Feel free to correct me about spoilers, because I'm not sure about the informations I talked about.
Woooooow, ok, I was editing my Caryl video, and picking up some scenes from Consumed, and I just saw something that I never notice before, and I really need to @oohhshiny and @frickss75 to write a meta and gif this moment, because I thought it was awesome.
Ok, so, Carol asks him if he did start over like he said she needed to. And what is his answer? He is trying. They keep staring at each other, until they can't hold each other's gaze. And then he asks her to tell him what's really on her mind. And she says that she doesn't think they can save people anymore. He asks her why she is there with him, if that's what she thinks. And she answers "I'm trying"
Ok, now, back to what I saw. I know that a lot of people have a lot of interpretation about every single scene from Consumed, and I'm not saying that my own is right (in fact, maybe this is more a headcanon than anything else). But pay attention to the meaning of this conversation. Carol wants to know if Daryl put behind everything that happened and now is starting over, if he was able to do that. The way she asks him, she is so alone in her own head, she feels like she doesn't belong anywhere. The only person she ever felt so connected with seems to be on another page, a page she can't reach. So, she asks him if he did start over, without her around. Not because she wouldn't want that, because Carol loves him so much to the point where she wants him happy, even when she can't be happy.
But then he answers her question and his answer is short, but it's clear like a a ray of sunshine. He is trying. He is trying to start over. But he is only able to do that with her. He is trying. Everytime he does something for her, everytime he quietly stands next to her, everytime he protects her from any danger, everytime he checks on her, or tell her that she is worthy, he is trying.
Because for him, starting over is starting over with her.
So they keep looking at each other, and I think that when he realizes that maybe she understood what he is saying, he lowers his gaze, because it's Daryl after all, and he is all shy around her. Carol then looks through the window, and she is so sad. And he asks her what she is really thinking. And she is honest with him. She doesn't think they can save people anymore. She doesn't think he can save her anymore. Daryl is such a good soul, and she knows that, and she doesn't believe that she deserves his efforts. But then he asks why she is there, if this is what she truly believes. And then she answers him. She is trying. Even if she doesn't believe that he can save her, she is trying for him, she is trying for the goodness she can see in him, she is trying because that's her way to show him that what he is doing is affecting her, that she cares for him so much that she can try
I'm pretty confident that our Caryl moment this season will not be only for us, the audience. I'm might be wrong, but I really hope I'm not lol. Let's think with me for a second.
According to spoilers, Daryl will not be back to ASZ until after episode 6. We don't know even if he will be there when the walker got to Alexandria. That said, we won't have any Caryl interaction on the first half of season 6. Ok, but let's remember that we didn't had any interaction at the back half of season 4. They didn't even talked about each other in many episodes. We, as an audience, had a reminder of their connection because of the coincidences we saw on their journey (Daryl almost following Carol's track, Carol seeing the fire of the cabin that Beth and Daryl burned. And I'm not even talking about all the parallels that we had in their storylines). But the characters didn't say a world about each other.
After that, we had season 5. And personally, while we never had any doubts about how they were important for one another, some people might not have so sure. Season 5 ended that. We had the hug, strangers, consumed, forehead kiss, ASZ and Daryl and Carol being all cute. We never had so much buzz around them, like last season. We never had so much speculation about their relationship like we have now. It's like TPTB wanted to solidify for us how they are a thing.
Finally, getting to the point: we already know what Carol and Daryl are for each other. We won't forget that so easy, after everything that happened last season. We don't need a reminder of how important they are in the other's life. But who needs to realize what they meant for each other? Who are the people who needs to see what it's in their faces and that everybody knows, but them?
Carol and Daryl
So, our Caryl moment might be more special than what we think it is. And I'm really excited about it.
