#cd vs lp

[audio-luddite]

Telarc CDs got Bass!

I have the Telarc Sampler disk serial CD 00007 playing. Consistent with that title it has 22 tracks of "sonic spectaculars". 75 minutes of big sounds. That is almost too much. I fired it up as a warm up for a loud session. Then I started serious listening. Many things but the big thing is the really low bass. Like earth shaking.

Oh and like that A&M Audiophile LP sampler this one is also labeled NOT FOR SALE. Got it anyway.

One track has the finale of Saint-Saens 3rd Symphony you know the one with the organ. And no lie you can hear a very low organ note just idling like a dangerous beast. 30 Hz? Lower? 16 Hz is the 32 foot pipe. My speakers should not go that low. I suppose a CD could almost go to DC ( 2Hz by the book apparently). It would suit those guys to show off. The CD player would be hurting down there.

My recollection of general CD complaints were in the treble. I do not recall anyone complaining about the bottom.

Oh right now its into the Grofe' Grand Canyon Suite Cloudburst part with Thunder. It almost sounds like a real storm. It is taxing the measly 60 Watts the ARC can push.

This thing is the apotheosis of a test record.

You know the rest of the sound is not bad. Good ambience when the engineers caught it for the quieter cuts. I suppose if I were more hostile to digital I would find something to complain about. But I have nothing but praise for the Bass.

I will spin up some LPs to bring balance back into my psyche.

[audio-luddite]

Got me thinking about CDs.

We had a brief exchange in the comments on an earlier post on how streaming is not that good, but there is high res available the rest is CD level or worse. So how good are CDs if they are a benchmark of being not good enough? That leads to the question are there any Audiophile Quality CDs?

I repeat my basic premise that there is no perfect system. There are flaws with every method. It is literally a "pick your poison" situation.

So are there any Audiophile CDs? Cut to the chase yes. Perfect no, of course not. I have one spinning right now it is excellent. Tiny details deep bass incredible ambience.

BACK STORY: Decades ago my system was an OP-Amp preamp, a very good Sony 2251 Turntable with a Shure V15 III, a pair of modified Dynaco MK III tube amps, and huge full range electrostatic speakers. I built the speakers, so do not ask what model. My CD player was a second generation Philips consumer model. Nothing to brag about there.

Even then I read reviews and stuff, but online was in the distant future. Real paper magazines. There was a review of an interconnect cable between a high end CD unit (don't recall which type) and his preamp. It came down to this one cable and only this one allowed the reviewer to hear this specific tiny obscure detail on this particular CD.

This was a key moment in my High End Audio education. Cuz I could hear that sound. I had that CD. If that sound was a benchmark in a high end system did that mean I had a high end system? And my CD player and preamp together cost less than this interconnect. I have no doubt he heard what he heard, as I could hear what I could hear. So it was not the wire was it?

That CD was Cowboy Junkies from Ontario Canada "Trinity Sessions" recorded in Toronto in a Church space copyright 1988.

I am listening to it now and it has everything an honest audiophile needs. Tiny details, great bass, natural sound recorded in the most straightforward way. It has a deserved reputation and is celebrated as a good one. It is so good they issued 180 gram LPs of it decades later.

If you are familiar with the CD or the LP you have heard "the sound" if your system is worthy. It is way back in the soundstage on the first cut. Like I said if you have the recording you know what it is.

Of course the recording is not just that actually silly detail. The band was set up around an ambisonic 3d microphone (one mike!) on risers in the church. Much of the Bass is the really deep resonance of the musicians tapping their feet on the risers. The Drum is actually a higher pitch. It is a sonic candy store. There is no studio magic, the space is real. If there are digital artifacts I simply do not care.

One of my favourite test cuts is number 11) Post Card Blues. The voice incredible. The Harmonica backing is epic. The Bass is crazy deep without the drums. I honestly find myself swapping my attention between the simple sounds and the songs themselves.

One classic track is number 10) Sweet Jane. Lou Reed is on record as this being the best cover of his song ever. Talk about a document. It's playing right now. Great high hat in the drum kit.

OH yes I bought the LPs and love to play them. The sound is wonderful there too. The master is digital on to video tape as there were no computers fast enough back then. So if you got digital artifacts well there is no cure. Pure not analog.

I have other CDs this good. They all depend on the recording engineer and mastering to be correct.

My Player is not top tier, but I still get this stuff out. What does that actually mean then. Hmmmm.

Yes I prefer vinyl, I respect good recordings. Is the LP version better, errr yes to my ear. It is preference like a favourite flavour of ice cream. Either is worthy.

[audio-luddite]

Right and Wrong.

Mr Guttenberg the "audiophiliac" keeps spinning videos. It's his job. Sometimes more than a grain of salt is needed to listen to this stuff. Every new and different product seems to be better. He has a new best.

This is the "best planar magnetic" speaker and it is from France. It is not inexpensive.

He does go on about the basic superiority of dipoles that fill the room with sound. His current reference speakers are cone dipoles. Recall I believe this is a major flaw in the concept as all those extra sound waves careen around the room. They are not in the original signal, they confuse things. Yet he praised the imagery and clarity of these things. How are all those extra bits not confusing? Its the old brain thing of prioritizing the initial signal you hear and consigning the other things to something else.

Is it not better to put out just the signal on the recording into the room?

Two things I want to emphasize about his opinions.

First is that these are "push pull" magnetics with magnets on the front and back so they are more linear. Errr, not so much, but more magnets make a more uniform field strength. They do not mean these are linear as the diaphragm is under tension so excursions are fought by the membrane tension. But sorta yes they are more linear, but not actually linear.

Second is his experience of always shifting and moving them as each recording he played sounded different. Phase cancellation dude. One of the true evils of of dipoles. Each position gives a different frequency response. That is not a good feature even though he enjoyed it.

Arguably these are very much like Magneplanars if they decided to go really upscale. Maggies are made from MDF which is a crappy material that has one good behaviour. It damps vibration. It is cheap made from glue and wood waste. The French product has steel front and back faces with MDF in between. That means they are heavy and have more inertial mass to resist motion from the vibrating air. It can push harder. Newton says the air will push back. These will work better than maggies.

Big Planar speakers have one really good parameter. They move a lot of air. They have good acoustic impedance matching to the room. That makes the sound more immediate and "alive" which is the effect of simple efficient transfer of energy from the speaker to the air.

Horn loaded speakers do the same thing, just with the added distortion from being a horn.

Each has its problems.

So here is another flavour of the week. Tastes good, but it is not audio nirvana.

In other news I listened to my "Kind of Blue" LP.

I first did some searches for info about the label Jazz Wax. I have another of those I like. Talk about a rabbit hole. Internet forum wisdom is that my copy may be a legal pirated version. A privateer version? One forum decried the label Jazz Wax as stealing masters that had expired copyrights. Some bastards in Europe are cutting LPs from CD copies say these paragons of justice.

Interesting and maybe true, certain no. Copyrights do expire on published works. But I think the property rights of the physical media product do not expire like that. Miles Davis' work is Public Domain if he has been dead long enough and his estate did not renew it. But the ownership of the masters I think remains with the company who produced or purchased it. That is why Universal has all those underground vaults with master tapes and digital files squirreled away. No point if someone could just copy an old CD. Whatever, I am not a lawyer.

It was interesting the intensity and vehemence of the discussion. Really calm down people. Kind of Blue is a work of performing art. If I want an LP and it is legally for sale in a store in my city why complain.

As far as quality it is pretty good. New York Columbia recordings from 1959 can be fine. And Jazz does not get processed to sound good on AM Radio. This one is half speed direct metal mastered. One forum guy screamed that DMM sucked and had no Bass. Not my experience. Be that as it may it is a musical Icon work. Some consider it to be the most important Jazz album ever. I do not want to go looking for ancient and rare LPs in bins. Fresh heavy vinyl is better.

There are some interesting effects in the recording. I have to listen again to track them down. The original was three track tape. I am pretty sure there are overdubs in there. Whatever it is good music.

That is the point right?

[audio-luddite]

One day early.

The headphones arrived a day early. So after dinner I dove in.

I have no idea if you are supposed to let them break in or whatever you want to call it. I had them and the new Schiit Vali to use for the first time. They may change a bit over time. I will see.

I have first impressions and I think those are valuable. It has been a long time since I used headphones. I have those stupid Iphone earbuds, but those are not in the game at all. Last serious set I had were some Koss noise canceling beasts for air travel and for the noisy open office I worked in. They were to keep stuff out. This Grado SR 125x is to enjoy music. That part works pretty good.

So the basic headphone experience is new to me. Lets get this out of the way then. It is in every way inferior to real speakers in a room. Except for the wife disturbance thing.

First and most noticeable is the Bass. Bass in a room from speakers is felt in your chest and sometimes your whole body. Headphones aint going to do that, the physics are impossible. You could exaggerate the bass to trick the ear, but that is not the real experience. I am not surprised, but now that I hear it, oh well. The headphones have OK Bass as far as feeding my ear holes. Maybe they will loosen up and get deeper after a few hours. But chest crushing bass is not possible.

The next thing is the simulation of a space or a performance venue. My speakers stretch an image across the room usually beyond the width they are positioned. All the recordings I tried last night do this. Headphones not so much. That too may be an effect of the new Schiit and with its newish tube not broken in. Nevertheless I played recordings that give me huge sense of room and volume in the main system. Headphones nope. There was an almost...

I have both the original CD and the 180 gram double LP set of Trinity Sessions. I played both last night. They both contain an amazing sense of space from the Trinity Church in Toronto. I could almost hear that with the headphones. You could hear the reverb in the room. There was a slight echo from Margo's vocal, but a real sense of space and illusion of volume no.

That said I have heard it in headphones years ago. My brother and I made a binaural recording set up with a dummy head (mom's wig holder) and a pair of condenser mikes. We recorded it into a reel to reel recorder then played it back into a set of sennheiser headphones and it was spooky. But these albums were not binaural.

Actually last night was a lot of comparing CDs and LPs of the same album. Trinity Sessions and Paul Simon's Graceland. The LPs came through 3 preamp phono tubes into the Vali 2 by way of the tape output of the preamp. The CD came out of the Yamaha CD-S300 via the tape monitor circuit (no tubes just switches) and into the Vali. The Vali is I think FET op amps and a Tube. That was interesting.

Overall there was gobs of detail and all that geek stuff. Yes the AC vent was rattling in the Trinity Sessions first track. You can clearly hear the vocals and the backups and the timbre of the instruments. Surface noise on LPs was more prominent. I guess room noise masks it in the big system. I just don't notice it on the speakers.

One preliminary conclusion is that the CDs and LPs have a very similar sound. That is how it is supposed to be. The cartridge was the Grado Opus3 to keep it in the family. If grados have a voice it is not a bad one. As the CD was so similar you may even have to admit the Grado Opus 3 is accurate, heavens!

I also played some usual suspect LPs. First up was Famous Blue Raincoat. All the sounds were there, but illusion of space no. You can hear the added reverb as it is just a bit off. Lead and background vocals are clear and separate. This is probably the first time I heard this album in headphones. There is some great Bass and I missed that, but see my comments above.

I also threw Emmylou at them. Quarter Moon in a Ten cent town. Wanna torture your cartridge this is the one. It made the Shure V15 III run and hide. Here I found that complaint about Grados having rough treble as having some merit. Emmylou's sibilance was almost too much. It was accentuated let's say. I have old man ears and highs are not what they used to be. This is the only recording I noticed anything like that and only on one track. I played all of side one and the first three tracks of side two. Again vocals are detailed and lovely. You can clearly identify each singer and their unique tone.

All that is the first few hours of listening. Things may change.

My goal is to listen to things with some privacy and to not bother she who must be obeyed. That is met. I will see if other recordings promise better illusions of space. It is an illusion and that is made by the way the recording is done. I will see if the Grados and the Vali break in or mature like a fine wine thing. It may happen

Regardless I have a good listening option I did not before. All I need now is the cable extension which will arrive next week. Then I can rest on the couch with my tunes.

I have one complaint though. The Headphones came with a 1/8" plug with an attached 1/4" adapter. I wasted some money buying a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter. For Tablet use. I did not notice anywhere in the Grado literature they did that. The adapter I got was a Grado as well so why do they even sell it? My best guess is it is a bit flexible and Ipads and tablets and Laptops have relatively fragile audio sockets and that may help. But that was a few bucks I did not need to spend.

[audio-luddite]

Or Yes.

I ordered the headphone amp. And yes it has a tube. And yes it sticks out which is something I said is stupid. Bear with me. As it feeds headphones microphonics will not be a problem. For a system with speakers it still is and will be forever stupid. And yes it has an "outboard power supply" but it is not a wart, but a transformer like the thing this laptop is plugged into. It is a Schiit Vali. I pulled the trigger as delivery may take a while. I think they wait for a bunch of orders and run them at once. I may see it by October. By that time I will have forgotten I ordered it.

It is kinda cute. There is an enthusiastic fan base for this brand. I hope that means good things. Oh and for a good quality unit it is CHEAP. Not made in China but California.

So next is headphones. That can wait as there are not many things I could plug it into. My iphone does not have an audio plug. My tablet does have a 1/8" plug. Good headphones all have 1/4" plugs. I could get an adapter for not too much I guess.

I will probably buy Grado. I have found all the negative things people say about their phono gear conflicts with my experience. I expect the same on the headphones. There are a few golden ears who say very nice things about the Grado Headphones. I also respect that Grado keeps their prices reasonable and actually cares about the customer. Not being made in China ( New York ) is a big help.

This will allow me to listen to whatever I want without disturbing "She who must be obeyed."

I can restart my CD vs LP comparison of the same albums. I have a few pairs like that. Not having the missus after me for "always listening to the same stuff" will facilitate that a lot.

[audio-luddite]

Reality Check #2

CD not versus LP but sorta something of a more cooperative nature. Which is more right? Does the phono cartridge have the same balance?

I played one track from Cowboy Junkies Trinity CD the “Postcard blues”.  You know the one with the toe tap,  First on the CD then on the LP.  I had relied on the track for some cartridge comparisons.  And yes I was subject to a frown from the missus as to why “always the same thing” thing.

I have to say I started this a bit intimidated by what I an trying.  It is a lot, which is one reason I started with one track.  This one had the advantage of familiarity due to those earlier comparisons.

CD on a Yamaha CD S300 in “Pure Direct Mode”.

LP on the Phaser with a Grado Opus 3 cart.

Both through the AR Preamp and my black mostly a Dynaco Amp and invisible speakers.

What did I notice? First is the general balance and mix is really similar.  So as to LP Frequency response being different and off with this cartridge, no it aint.  But there is a difference in the Bass.  Hard to put my finger on it. The CD was lacking in the ambience and texture I found on the LP.  Space and natural reverb and significant detail in the Harmonica. 

Margo Timmin’s voice was delicate and entrancing. At first I almost preferred the CD but something was missing that was on the LP. The famous toe tap had totally different character.  The original was a digital recording so the LP must be remixed.  But that was supervised by the original engineer.  I had a clear preference for the LP. (as expected)  There was just more there.

Next up I remembered that I had another High end LP and the CD of same album.  Paul Simon’s “Graceland.”  I played all of the songs from LP side 2 on the CD then the LP.  The differences were mostly subtle. There were a couple of jump out things. The tracks with Ladysmith Black Mambazo were striking.  They had real space and the tongue clicks were more human.  I could almost see them if I closed my eyes.  I was lucky to see them in concert years ago. On the CD (which is really good) they sounded dimensionally flat.

The different vocal tracks were separable on vinyl. Linda Ronstadt was more clear and human sounding. Simon backed himself on a couple of tracks which became more obvious on vinyl.

Another thing was the percussion.  They had some tiny tinkly sounds that were “cute” on the CD.  On the LP there was a metallic aspect sounding like it was actually a small bell or cymbal thing being struck.  Drums had a real texture on the LP.  The Bass may have been a bit deeper in the CD, but that could be a mix thing to keep from overloading the disk cutting process.  Speculation.

I did not do this blind I knew which was which.  But even so there were real and significant differences in the LPs favor.  Confirmation bias?  I don’t think so as there was definitely more stuff there.

I suspect that the CD playback could be improved perhaps.  That may justify spending bucks there. That could be REALLY expensive.  And that would just be to maybe catch the LP. Maybe.

Then the stated purpose of finding if the cartridge has the “proper” frequency balance. I think it does.  NO particular part of any tracks were emphasized or exaggerated to my ears compared to the CD. (Maybe deep Bass, maybe.) There was no stringency or harshness.  There was no audible remix as I have heard in other things.  What I heard were more details and texture.

Both of these albums are Audiophile nuggets. They are excellent recordings of excellent music.

Previously I noted that the general balance of the Grado and my two Audio Technicas is similar. Richness or warmth I do not see unless one means very subtle details of the sounds which does come out in the Grado better.  Tiny things really.

I may be halfway through the Grado break in period.  If it is 70 hours that is over a hundred albums.  Crazy. 

As I write this I have an old jazz album on.  George Benson playing what his take on 60′s pop hits.  The album “white rabbit”.  It is a thin disk not 180 gram at all.  Still it sounds freaky good.

Cheers and listen on!

[audio-luddite]

Reality? Check.

I have not done this yet.

I have two examples of a CD and an LP of the same Album. Both are audiophile gems in both forms.  I have not done a straight comparison yet but that is now due.

My plan is to listen straight through the CDs then the LPs then depending on what I hear compare track by track.

One is the famous “Trinity Sessions” by Cowboy Junkies.  I bought it as a magazine (you know on printed paper, gasp) touted it as a masterpiece.  It was.  It was recorded with a digital system through a freaky 3D microphone in a church with great acoustics.  The Second is “Famous Blue Raincoat” by Jennifer Warnes and Leonard Cohen.  I think is was conventionally recorded in a Studio, but it is of excellent quality.

The TS by CJs was originally a CD and was noted for the amazing recording that audio fetishists loved to extract useless tiny details from to brag about their systems.  It was later re-issued on a two disc 200 gram LP of very high quality.  It was remastered by the original recording engineer and the lacquers cut at Sterling labs. Take it as given it is seriously good, so I bought it.

The FBR by JW recording was an LP later reissued on CD then re-reissued on 180 gram vinyl as it is “one of the good ones.”  I have two copies of the original issue as well as the CD.

I had bought the CD of FBR as I was on the verge of abandoning LPs and I could also put it on my Iphone like all the other lemmings. Digital has convenience locked up.  Sometimes it even sounds good.  I got over that fortunately.

If you are not familiar with it the TS CD by CJs has a few silly things audiophiles love. One of my early WTF audiophile moments was reading a review by a golden ear about this particular wire connecting his CD deck (costing more than my car) to his system (costing as much as my house). (Neither my car nor house were high end)  He described in great detail this sound on the first track of the album.  It was the sound of an air conditioner with a rattling grating or damper.  Basically it was some sheet metal intruding on the song.  The song is just a vocal by Margo Timmins in this huge room that had AC apparently.

So the WTF moment was that only with this particular cryogenically frozen cable woven by virgins could he hear this particular sound.  The wire cost more than my CD deck. Oh and the sound is really there as I could hear it clearly on my “el-cheapo” system.  So much for golden ears and their opinions.  They may hear these things, but they are really too far down the rabbit hole to reflect any reality.

As I have been concentrating on LPs for some time I have not gone back to these CDs in years. I have gone through several phono cartridges which have quite distinct sounds and the obvious question is which is most real?  Real is distinct from favorite or nicest sounding.  The tone and voice of a phono pickup depends on many super subtle things.  There are resonances and nulls and lots of weird stuff. The best should be what is closest to the recording, not what you like the most.

If you have read some of by Bumph here you know I use the TS LP to compare my cartridges and have made judgements with that.

The voice of a CD player is more constrained.  It is a fairly straightforward conversion of D to A electrically. There are artifacts and noise and jitter and all that, but the representation of the source IS more linear.  My CD deck is not high end, but it is good.  There is even a setting to turn off the display to make the DA converters more quiet.

I stands to reason that the Phono cartridge that sounds most like the CD is the most accurate.  It is of course more than just the TT and pickup. The preamp will have its impact. The signal has to pass through 3 vacuum tubes to get to the high level stage of two more.  The CD will pass through the same two high level tubes so that is fair.  Given that so many people adore phono preamps with just two tubes or even one I will give the edge to the three as there is better buffering.  It is what I got.

I am not looking for the most engaging or profound or unicorns with fairy dust.  I just want to see which sounds closest in tone and balance.  As of now I have several really good pickups. They sound similar and different. The differences are usually subtle like inner voices and detail.  Extracting detail is hard.  Different parts being more or less evident is probably a frequency response thing.

Why am I discussing this now? It is going to take a bit of time. Two albums Two CDs at least two cartridges perhaps three.  My wife is always going on about listening to the same thing.  Oh boy will I be getting that now.

But If I explain this all now I do not have to repeat myself as I work on this.  It is much simpler. This track sounds better or worse or more accurate here or there.

OK I fully admit I prefer the sound of vinyl.  I think there is just more there. But all mediums are flawed. But I can simply set the basic sound of the albums on digital as a standard.  If things jump out on the LP that are not apparent on the CD then there is a suspect.  They are literally the same recording.  They are not the same masters, but you gotta start somewhere.

The best result would be that one or another cartridge will sound generally like the CD, but will deliver more tiny details. 

Stay Tuned.