#fandom mythbusting

[ardentpoop]

re: benny and amelia for the 100th time because this is one of the most egregiously misunderstood arcs in the show

the reason dean is seemingly-hypocritically (actually hypocritical from sam’s POV, but perfectly consistent with the show’s internal logic) upset at sam for “abandoning [him] for a girl” while he is Shirking his own duties as a hunter and as sam’s partner to tend to benny’s needs as a vampire is because Brothers In Arms outranks Marriage Of Convenience With Woman, and because dean always outranks sam. like, people read dean and benny’s canon relationship as queer, and don’t get me wrong I enjoy viewing them through that lens as well, but as usual the original text is almost entirely built on misogynistic ideas and - for dean far more definitively than sam - military masculinity. dean was on the battlefield (purgatory with benny) while sam was playing house (recovering from burnout with fellow grieving widow amelia) so the deluge of scorn and resentment - far more canon-accurate descriptors of dean’s feelings about sam’s relationship with amelia than “jealousy” - that dean started unleashing on sam the very instant he Returned From The War to pull sam out of his fantasy world where the fight could be over for him, makes perfect sense.

and it feels like I’ve talked about sam’s perspective throughout s8 ad nauseam so I will just reiterate that dean had hammered The Hunter’s Guide To Good And Evil into sam’s own body back in s4-s6 so how exactly do you think sam would feel to know that dean had broken those rules for benny when he would never break them for sam, for whom any speck of “monstrosity” necessitated the extreme measures that would restore him to Sammy? granted I am imposing most of this onto a canon that deprioritizes sam’s perspective to honor dean’s, however even if you’re looking at just what the text tells you directly, it isn’t about “jealousy” for sam either; it’s about dean shutting him out as a result of sam’s “failures,” because dean has the power to do that to sam, but the reverse is not true.

[ardentpoop]

on the topic of “homosexism” / “text is so misogynistic it [supposedly] becomes gay”

I want people to examine why they feel comfortable ascribing queerness to narratives so viciously misogynistic that even casual readers can’t really discuss the Accidental Gayness without ruefully nodding to the misogyny. it boggles the mind a bit that large chunks of a show like supernatural’s audience can possibly earnestly describe it as “a gay show” when it has always been and will always be a show with a conservative-white-american ethos primarily centered on “preserving the family” (what kind of family specifically?) and “protecting the country” (again you should ask: from who?)

granted this was also a show that was constantly updating itself based on the whims of its loudest fans, and given e.g. the frequent misogynistic fan backlash to any serious attempts to deviate from The Basic Formular (show spotlighting conventionally attractive shippable white men where women are only ever nonthreatening props at best and permissibly violated Demon Bitches at worst) it grew more rather than less conservative as the years went on and kowtowing to audience pressures became more and more of a necessity to extend the show’s lifespan. you will frequently see claims to the contrary from normie fans - notably, the very same D/C shippers who made it so that female love interests for dean became a complete nonstarter in the later years - who see the show’s eventual superficial attempts to incorporate more underdeveloped female characters, or even queer side characters that the fandom at large ironically barely notices (s12’s max banes might have been appreciated more for his atypical role if he wasn’t portrayed by a black man) - and insist that the show successfully Evolved With The Times. I couldn’t disagree more. rowena is one of the show’s most prominent female characters overall, and look at the key features of her characterization. look at mary’s. look at why charlie was a fandom-favorite female character compared to how fans received jo or ruby 1.0 or anna or amelia or amara.

my main point here is that the text is not “so misogynistic it becomes gay” - from the very beginning it valued relationships between male characters over relationships between men and women. those are the superior relationships because it is the men who represent the Ideal Hunter/Soldier/Protector, and the women they might become romantically entangled with are just that: romanceable distractions from the mission. “weak spots.” or they are innocent little girls who need to be taught not to distract from the mission. or they are evil seductresses and tramps who need to turn good or die. there is no change occurring here, unless you’re referring to safely-ambiguous fanservice scenes included to sate the shippers, who as the years went on became more of a demographic worth catering to for the sake of the numbers.

“becomes gay” is something you can say about how certain groups of fans engage with stories like this, but in terms of the source material the misogyny is a much much more foundational ingredient than any debatable element of queerness that arose specifically in response to fan interest. you can see this, by the way, in how supernatural jokingly insults both sides of its own slash fic community throughout the years. the misogyny is a crucial component of the show’s world and touches all of its characters in some way. the “gayness” is a punchline.

[ardentpoop]

I’m in the mood to say anything regardless of who I’m annoying so I will argue with these tags I just got :-)

1) MOC!dean being indistinguishable from regular dean is only a problem in terms of narrative framing - the show is insisting to you throughout the entirety of this arc that dean is different but even dean-biased viewers can (consciously or subconsciously) acknowledge that he isn’t really. if you set aside the staggering failures of s9-s10’s messaging it is actually so awesome that MOC!dean and demon!dean are literally just dean. like by this point in the show he’s already so intense and controlling and aggressive that trying to bump him up a few notches hardly registers, bc these goofy writers were so married to dean specifically as a Hero that they didn’t want to go full Irredeemable Villain with it (whatever that means to them). the difference kind of only registers when he’s like for example calling a dead girl a whore. bc our dean only calls girls who “deserve it” whores!!!! I’m obsessed with how empty this dean-dichotomy is it reveals so much abt the show’s attitudes and the audience’s, for insisting that the dichotomy is real. a not-uncommon dean stan take is that sam and cas were “overreacting” to MOC!dean’s behavior bc he “wasn’t that bad.” well I agree and disagree. he wasn’t that bad bc regular dean is already really really bad. which is what makes him a fantastic character <3

2) I’m sorry but I simply cannot fathom not reading regular dean as a mean character. cruelty IS his typical playground because he’s really scared All The Time. again, this is why he is one of the most effectively terrifying characters I’ve ever encountered in anything. the narrative molds itself around his biases and fears and all opposing perspectives (notably sam’s) eventually get plastered over by his own lest they threaten the status quo or the guy who enforces it. he is a genuinely mind-boggling fictional accomplishment. I’m not at all joking when I say patriarch of all time.

[ardentpoop]

What do you think the take that sam beating/choking dean in 4x21 resembles domestic violence and is therefore wrong, but dean beating sam while he's soulless is justifiable because it's a reaction to sam letting him get turned?

are u sending me this rn to cheer me up by giving me an excuse to rant abt how fucking (willfully) stupid fandom is

if so I appreciate it but my heart is not in it I fear. the fruit hangs too low.

the concise answer is that everyone who looks at sam choking dean at the end of 4.21 and reacts in any way besides “YES!!!!!!! YES!!!!! DESERVED” is someone I frankly do not want to hear from, and that “justifiable” to this fandom hinges solely on dean’s feelings about a given situation. just because I understand that dean’s violent fury in that scene was in part prompted by his (rare for him relative to sam) preceding loss of control/autonomy doesn’t make him beating sam bloody before he even knows he’s “soulless” any less horrifying.

I resent these two scenes being compared like this on even just an aesthetic level bc the former was a Struggle between the two of them that dean lost, and the latter was sam simply taking a severe beating. like truly the astounding violence of what dean did to sam with the panic room registers to so few people in this audience because in dean’s mind it was correct and righteous. sam could’ve literally killed dean in that motel room and I would’ve said good for her. To Say Nothing of the narrative weight of the verbal confrontation between them that led up to their physical fight or the power that dean had to “disown” sam afterward, exactly as john did (a very intentional parallel that most of the audience unbelievably misses.)

ok maybe not so concise. whatever. worst fandom of all time 🎉

[ardentpoop]

re:

“you’re my weak spot, and I’m yours.”

-“you don’t mean that, we’re family.”

“I know. and those evil sons of bitches know it too.”

obviously commonly decontextualized for bland S/D content (sorry S/D fiends I like the ship I just can’t stand the fanon.)

however it is like. what are they actually saying here. all ties outside of hunting/the family are “weak spots” - we know this bc the early seasons establish it so thoroughly. romantic entanglements with women because that is all they are good for? cut those out; they make you a worse soldier. friendships with civilians? cut those out; they make you a worse soldier. all you need is you and me sammy, two-man unit keeping the family alive as it should be. except that bond becomes a liability too, doesn’t it. our Heroes don’t want to believe it, of course, but there it is. consider also john’s absences in the context of the mission. was he better or worse off for his emotional distance? what does the show believe and when?

Loyalty To Family versus Loyalty To Country. never forget your blighted usamericanisms when you are analyzing this narrative.

[ardentpoop]

“sam at his most base level is about hunger” could be an interesting claim if you propped it on his lifetime of restriction/self-denial (food, sex, his “inner darkness/impurity/uncleanliness” with the understanding that this is symbolic of scary real-world things that fandom doggedly ignores bc it doesn’t suit the normie fan narratives) rather than it typically being a concerningly uncritical extension of the narrative’s characterization of sam’s addiction and his own body as Evil and worthy of punishment.

“dean at his most base level is about [nurturing]” is like, idk man, you pulled that straight out of your ass because Dean Good and Sam Bad in your subconscious. like that’s hardly his most base level LMFAO it’s an idea that sits right at the tippy top of his facade and it is provably false. can you people start making horny connections between dean’s ravenous appetite (sexual and otherwise) and his unchecked influence on the entirety of the show’s universe before I fucking die of boredom. can you finally start treating it like his garish little sandpit for emergent behavior. I’m lonely. appreciate my Patriarch Of All Time with me.

[ardentpoop]

fun fact this is one of my absolute least favorite megapopular takes this fandom has produced and that’s saying so much. jensen fucking adores that “2D macho man character” you guys supposedly also love fyi. he thinks dean is perfect exactly the way he’s written and frankly so do I bc sam wouldn’t be sam if dean wasn’t dean. if not for the narrative’s and the audience’s preference for dean negatively influencing popular perceptions of sam this show would not be anywhere near as interesting to me as it is.

btw you guys only talk like that abt jensen’s acting (often in contrast with jared’s) bc you pay far more attention to dean than sam and so assume that jensen is Acting Better. both jensen and jared do plenty of really good work on this show and jared’s skillset in particular is so underappreciated bc of the fandom’s hate boner for him. AND also this is the cw’s supernatural can we resist the urge to slapfight abt which of the actormen “deserves an academy award.” please!

[ardentpoop]

(TW incest, SPN discourse and rape) Feel free to ignore this ask if it makes you uncomfortable. But what’s your thoughts on the idea of Soulless Sam losing his inhibitions and so giving into his darkest desires, and sexually assaulting Dean (which is how the vampire turning scene is read). I often see this tied to the idea that because of the incestuous deal and Azazel’s blood, Sam’s tainted and has this inherent darkness, specifically playing around the idea Sam’s sexuality is dark and perverse, and he harbours these feelings towards Dean and desires to assault him but feels shame and guilt for it. But as Soulless Sam he doesn’t. This reading always felt a little weird and uncomfortable to me but I couldn’t put into words why

oh good I thought for a second that you were asking me abt this (popular and bad) take bc you enjoy it 😭

it’s not the incest and the quote-unquote perversion that I have a problem with but as usual the fandom’s dogged attempts to invert samndean’s power dynamic while failing to recognize how the narrative actually utilizes sam’s role vs dean’s, thus uncritically doubling down on the Righteous Man vs Boy With The Demon Blood dichotomy. dean-biased viewers “love” soulless!sam because they can point to him and go see, that’s the Real Sam, Sick And Twisted Freak Corrupting Dean’s Innate Goodness All Along, which is frankly so unforgivably disgusting to me that it makes me want to spit. I’ve played with this concept myself thru fic but as a belief that sam holds about himself (and that, for the record, dean also holds about himself - it’s just that each of them deals with it differently in keeping with their contrasting roles and with the power dean has in the relationship that sam does not.)

I could write the billionth essay about soulless!sam vs demon!dean except with the canon’s Us And Them framework in mind as well as the audience’s predisposition to overlook sam’s abundant nuances to be able to characterize him in a “worse” light than dean while inventing dean nuances to be able to “justify” their often superficial preference for him, but I don’t fucking feel like it. those who get it get it and those who don’t will never care to; my 10-year break from the fandom sadly proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

all that to say, I’m fine with reading arousal into soulless!sam’s response to dean’s noncon vampire-turning that he stood by and watched, because who cares, that’s fun to me. he should’ve been worse. hashtag fujosam moment. what I’m NOT fine with is the dean queens ravenously seizing on this moment as “proof” of Poor Sweet Angel Baby Kisses Dean’s helplessness/submissiveness in the relationship as a whole, because that is flat-out fabricated bullshit. like, early s6 features some of the most interesting dean characterization in the show to me in that the narrative actually intentionally punishes dean for the “substandard masculinity” represented by his break from hunting/his life with lisa and ben, and this assault scene is very much a part of that. it is so much rarer throughout the course of this show for dean to be subjected to that type of “indignity”/“emasculation” relative to sam, and this is a function of their respective roles, and it is why this particular scene is so obnoxiously buzzed-about by this insanely dean-biased audience.

btw, what does dean do in response to his pent-up fury at the helplessness he feels because of this assault and the events surrounding it? he quite literally beats sam to a bloody pulp, before cas even informs him about sam’s “soullessness” (definition flexible). he ties sam up in a chair and tells him he’s not letting him go no matter how nicely he asks and barks at him like he’s a worthless monster and coolly instructs cas to Probe Him for answers without his consent, because again, that is a consistent part of sam’s role that you are meant to contrast with dean’s. furthermore, he threateningly tells sam he’s gonna watch every move he makes from that point forward and demands that he runs his every decision by dean because his sense of right and wrong cannot be trusted. like can we examine this on a metaphorical level Just A Smidge, for me?

anyway TL;DR as usual I can’t believe I actually think this but this audience at large is incapable of handling the complexities of these characters as they are presented in the canon, and so few people write S/D fic in a way I can actually stomach or appreciate that I have to write it myself for the minority of readers it appeals to. I didn’t even touch on the massive problem I have with dean and thus the fandom reinforcing sam’s belief in himself as Unclean/Impure due to an event that occurred when it was impossible for him to consent, OR on the implicit homophobia underpinning dean’s vampire-turning scene and really that whole episode, because who has the time!!!!