#frozen beef

[angelshizuka]

Thinking about how much an older draft of F1 was about Anna feeling like the spare only for F2 to come out and say "Yes, you ARE the spare and are only queen because Elsa didn't want to anymore".

I am a firm believer Anna has it in her to be a great queen, but I HATE how F2 build up to it like it was Elsa's arc of finding a replacement, so she could move to the forest without consequences. That is the literal definition of what a spare child in a royal family is (tbf, it's usually in case of death, but Elsa did briefly die, so I'm still counting it).

Like, godforbid the one thing F2 gave Anna (after Elsa already hoarded their fifth spirit destiny and THEIR parents) would've actually been her own arc instead.

[the-blue-fairie]

This is an unpopular opinion that I’ve tiptoed around in the past, but sometimes I feel people are more invested in exploring the intentions of Frozen 2 than exploring what Frozen 2 actually says.

Yes, the film intends to be about Anna coming to terms with the inevitability of change and facing up to her own insecurities. But then the film itself creates scenarios where Anna is driven less by her inability to accept change/her own insecurities and more by completely valid concerns for her only surviving relative in a dangerous situation. Being able to accept change doesn’t exactly correlate with “trying to protect your sister who could and does die” and “being frustrated when your sister seems way more emotionally distant than usual.”

On that note, I get that the film doesn’t necessarily intend for Elsa to be emotionally distant, but instead intends to make a statement about how the sisters are two people with distinct identities and desires and so Elsa has to follow through with what seems best for her, even if it clashes with Anna’s desires. But that reveals the discrepancy between intent and execution yet again. Because the film itself shows us Anna fraying at the seams, clearly in emotional distress as Elsa pushes forward into perils. And although the film frames this as “desperation” on Anna’s part, that framing feels... disingenuous. 

It’s like the film is saying to Anna, “You have to accept that you can’t always protect Elsa and you have to accept the inevitability of change even when that change is loss or death.” But then... that frames Anna’s desire to protect Elsa as desperation which she must grow beyond when... it’s actually one of the most clear-sighted and rational perspectives in the film. Moreover, saying “the sisters are two people with distinct identities and so Elsa has to follow through with what seems best for her” doesn’t interrogate the ways Elsa... does seem emotionally distant throughout F2. Making promises she can’t keep, not confiding in Anna at key times, etc.

The film intends for Elsa being less apologetic to be character growth because, in previous installments of the franchise, we have seen Elsa apologize repeatedly for existing and for things outside of her control. But then the film creates scenarios where Elsa actually does things that seem like they would warrant an apology - things that have no correlation to her condemning herself for existing and things that actually are in her control. I keep returning to the ice boat scene because it’s a scene the film itself thinks is enough of a turning point to make even Olaf feel angry and betrayed. Apologizing for hurting your traveling companions and breaking your word to them is not the same as apologizing for existing.

Likewise, the film intends to be about coming to terms with the past... but then it refuses to come to terms with Agnarr’s and Iduna’s mistakes.

 So often, I see the people defend the film based on what it intends (and, make no mistake, it has GREAT intentions), but sometimes that means they ignore what it actually is. 

[hb-pickle]

Hot take: Maybe people just like, appreciate, and understand both sisters, but still have a favorite and that's ok. It's not a competition. Please stop hating on the sisters.

[glittering-snowfall]

I know I’ve vented about this before, here and on my other blog, but...

It frustrates me that the loudest negative talking points about F2 have devolved into personal insults about characters, the filmmakers, and the cast... or using books that always existed in a nebulous canon space to ‘prove’ that characters are OOC.

Look. I dislike the ending of F2. I think there were poor writing decisions in F2. (I also think there were good writing decisions.) I feel there are serious pacing issues that often undercut the good aspects of the film. I also think that, at certain points, characters’ behavior feels OOC or the resolutions to scenes feel so rushed they don’t land with the impact they should.

I don’t like the destiny elements. I don’t like the Fifth Spirit elements and I feel they compromise Elsa’s agency (and before someone says, “But they don’t determine Elsa’s actions!”, let me reiterate that they still influence Elsa’s actions and influence her life from before she is even born. This isn’t like the world influencing people. This is design - and even if you feel that the regular influences of the world that ordinary people go through are God’s design, God doesn’t take as clear and direct a hand as the spirits and magical forces do with Elsa in F2.

I actually agree with a lot of the central points the “BringElsaHome” people have, but... not for the reasons that they sometimes tout.

Like... Elsa feels slightly OOC to me in F2 because she’s so focused on her own goals even when it’s clear that Anna is panicking and hurting - and that feels legitimately off for me. Yes, Elsa frequently pushes Anna away in the first film for Anna’s own good, but we get so many scenes of Elsa being aware that she is hurting Anna emotionally and hating that. In F2, something like the ice boat scene happens and then it never comes up again. We don’t get a moment for Elsa to pause and reflect on what she’s done, we just jump to the Dark Sea scene. In fact, the more I think about it, the ice boat scene is a GOOD scene - it’s compelling and morally grey and opens up interesting conflicts and, it’s born of Elsa’s noble desire to protect those she loves), but the aftermath is what kills it because it’s so disjointed and rushed and so it feels... off...

Again, I’m not saying this to be critical of Elsa. I love Elsa. I’m being critical of the way Elsa is written at points in F2 and, more than that, how the pacing does a disservice to otherwise good scenes. I know some anti-Elsa people took my ice boat post from ages ago to say that Elsa “never apologizes” in general, but that’s just factually incorrect and I advise them to look back at all the times in the franchise when Elsa has. 

It’s strange because the “BringElsaHome” folks, I know, dislike that scene as well. And so do some anti-Elsa folks. (It’s strange how they both agree because those groups hate each other, mostly due to shipping differences - but they agree to a degree and then veer into different directions, both of which I’m not fond of.)

The “BringElsaHome” folks feel the moment sucks and is OOC (which I agree with) but then some of the more aggressive folks go into wild directions with what they consider OOC about Elsa in F2 generally. Like, going to books of dubious canonicity doesn’t further your point when I’ve just spent the last few paragraphs talking about why Elsa feels OOC between movies based on the actual texts of both films. I did that to show, you CAN argue a case about Elsa feeling off in F2 and it can make sense - but the conversation so often gets derailed by the strangest choices people choose to argue. Like, talking about how ‘classy’ Elsa is? That’s incredibly superficial and has some racist implications when combined with certain people’s negativity towards the Northuldra.

And the anti-Elsa people... well, they took hold of my old post to claim Elsa “never apologizes” which wasn’t the point of that post at all and feels rooted in biases against Elsa. It doesn’t look at the small discrepancies between characterization and pacing, it just generalizes Elsa as a “bad sister.” Even though there are nuances to the scene and, on it’s own it’s a rather good scene, it’s just a victim of choppy editing and pacing when it comes to addressing its aftermath.

At the same time, I do agree with the frustrations that Anna fans have... and some of the frustrations that Elsa fans have. let me try to explain my position.

You see, I feel that Anna’s personal journey in Frozen 2 is far better written than Elsa’s personal journey. It feels more grounded. it feels more human. I can relate to it more. The Next Right Thing is so real it hurts me to hear it. And because it feels better written, I can sympathize with Elsa fans who feel Elsa got the short shrift in F2. Someone on twitter talked about F2 being more focused on Elsa’s magic than Elsa as a person and... I agree with that. At the same time, I don’t agree with people who say the filmmakers “hate” Elsa or suggest Kristen Bell was somehow pulling strings behind the scenes. That’s not how it works, guys, and even if she made some suggestions, the writers and director are the final arbiters. The writers and director call the shots. 

While I agree with the arguments that Elsa suffered from poor writing (and poor editing) at points of F2, it’s not because the filmmakers “hate” her. I think they love her very much and wanted to make a relatable story for her. That’s why Elsa’s journey in F2 works as a metaphor for self-acceptance. 

But I do think the means they used to facilitate the metaphor are flawed. The magical destiny elements overwhelm the human elements and so it becomes... only metaphor... whereas in the first film, we had Elsa’s powers as metaphor, yes, but grounded alongside her interactions with her family and others. It becomes too abstract and it’s hard for me to relate to. (Keep in mind, I’m NOT policing anyone. As I said, it’s a powerful metaphor - and if that metaphor works as-is for you, I’m happy for you. I just needed to see more of Elsa bonding with other people - like the found family she built in the first film, like the Northuldra who could serve as a beautiful extension of that family and who I feel need more screentime. I feel it’s poor writing (or at least, flawed writing) but not born from a place of malice. More, I’d argue it comes from a good-intentioned miscalculation what made Elsa so resonant to a certain subset of fans. But that’s not hate.

I agree with Anna fans who are frustrated too. It’s interesting. Certain Elsa fans feel Elsa was pushed aside while Anna fans feel frustrated about Anna too. I sympathize with Anna fans because Elsa does always get way more focus in the marketing. Elsa gets way more attention from fans and the media and so forth. That hurts. And, even as I feel Anna got the far richer storyline in F2, Elsa still got the big showstopping numbers that everyone focused on. That can hurt.

And I also sympathize with Anna fans (of various ships) stung by the fact that F2 puts Anna through... a whole lot of pain. Where Elsa gets a journey of exultation, Anna gets to struggle as her certainties fray apart. And, for me, that hurts. Maybe it’s just because, as I said, The Next Right Thing feels too real for me.

And that sympathy of mine means I agree with different people of different ships too, to a degree. I agree with KA  and EA shippers who talk about how Anna went through so much but the filmmakers cut the moment of her getting her parent’s validation. I agree that Anna is more level-headed than Elsa throughout much of F2 and it hurts seeing her try to hold her family together. I DO NOT agree when people bring up codependency to condemn the snow sisters bond; I’m sensitive to that.

I don’t know. I agree with a lot of critiques about F2, but I also love aspects of F2 and think it’s beautiful in spite of its flaws. But I still critique it a lot. I just wish people focused their critiques on more coherent things than... on the things they do. 

[kingkrisofarendelle]

If frozen 2 really is a movie about sisters, then why were scenes such us "Elsa's dream", "Secret Room" and Elsa showing Anna their parents' memory, scenes that were focused on the sisters and told the story better, deleted or replaced with scenes that were more focused on Elsa? Why was the song "Seek the truth" a duet between Anna and Elsa explains their motives well removed, while "into the unknown", a song just about Elsa wanting to leave, replaced the "Elsa's dream" scene and took the place of the song for advertising the movie?

I'll tell you why, because Frozen is no longer about sisters, but it's about Elsa and only Elsa from the moment Let It Go got as famous as it is. From that moment it was not about making Frozen 2, but Let It Go 2.

Frozen 2 could have been an incredibly good movie, if Disney didn't only think about money and milk Elsa's popularity to the point that she's the only focus of the film. We could have had an actual movie about sisters, the northuldrans could have been more interesting, the other characters would have their time to shine too, but nope it's all about Elsa.

[bigfrozensix]

How come F2 was a disappointment to you? I barely remember the first one tbh

Boy, that’s a whole can of worms...

Honestly, I loved F2 when it first came out, but the longer it exists, the more I hate it. I just keep finding problems with it and considering this movie was extremely rushed before the deadline (even worse than F1 was) explains why it’s such an incoherent mess.

The best way I can sum up F2 is that it’s a few amazing scenes and ideas, tied together with bullshit and good animation.

And don’t even get me started on the deleted Secret Room plot, that sounds a hundred times more interesting. The more deleted scenes I see, the more I hate the scenes we ended up with.

[annasource]

I liked Frozen II, I really did. But at the same time... I'm a little bit upset, because during Frozen, when we saw so much of Elsa and Agnarr during DYWBAS, I, at least, headcanoned that Anna was spending time with Iduna off-screen sometimes, so she wasn't COMPLETELY neglected. But then FII... put emphasis on Iduna and Elsa. I know it was never really canon, but it feels like just one more thing taken away from Anna and given to Elsa :(

Yes, thank you! That’s exactly what it feels like to me.

And lol “I love F2, but...” has been my catchphrase all year... I truly love this movie, but boi... I have SO MANY issues with it.

If F2 REALLY wanted to push the Elsa and Iduna angle, they could have AT LEAST given Anna more time with Agnarr. Because even now, Elsa still has more development with Agnarr. So thanks to F2, Elsa has BOTH parents now (and even in F1 she already had, tbh, with the way it was shown).

So yeah... I still stand by Anna grew up neglected (in favour of Elsa) and if Disney doesn’t want me to think that, they shouldn’t have made both movies like this.

Also, the fact that there originally were “Anna feels insecure if her parents were proud of her” and “Anna feels conflicted about how many secrets they kept from her growing up” plot points, that were ironically deleted to put even more focus on Elsa, speaks VOLUMES. Disney will gladly neglect Anna, in every meaning of the word, if it benefits Elsa.

[thejakzzofdumpsterfirezz]

I just read another stupid anti-Anna post. Ppl really enjoy saying Anna didn't study to be Queen. Well guess what? That argument is bs because no one can actually say if she studied or not because it is never addressed in canon. Next argument: Anna is impulsive. Ah yes, the fan favorite. Anna is definitely impulsive because she followed a voice in the middle of the night without thinking about what it would do to her kingdom right? Oh wait....that was Elsa🙃. Anna is impulsive at some points but she always has Arendelle's best interests in mind. Another argument: Anna has the same boring ending as other DPs: hetero marriage. I can understand being sick of the same old straight romance being shown over and over again but shaming a woman for being in a loving, healthy and caring relationship with a man is wrong. How can someone be boring after they get married? What kind of mindset is that? What kind of mindset is the woman's life is now over because she's married? Is it because she's marrying a man? Is it because Anna's getting married? That's what makes her boring? Bullshit. Completely bullshit. Anna isn't boring just because she's getting married, she's gorgeous, funny, brilliant, never gives up on anyone, has a heart full of love and we don't deserve her.

Sorry this turned into a rant but I just hate it when people say Anna isn't good enough to be Queen and then use shitty arguments like she's hetero for why. Also another note. I like Elsa, I found her journey empowering but gd ppl really need to stop ignoring her flaws. The more I see ppl ignore her flaws the more I want to point them out!