Hey! Can you explain a bit more your comparison between it and st kids? I don't really understand. Have a nice day <3
gladly !!
there are LOTS of parallels between the st and it kids on so many levels, but what i was focusing on in that post was the difference between the two in relation to sex (and other “adult stuff” like cigarettes, but mainly sex) and how that shows different ways to cope with trauma and what the kids symbolize as a whole in the show/movie/book
first off let’s remember that the losers are all 11 years old, if i remember correctly only stanley is 10 in the book. the members of the party are 12 in the first season and obviously they grow up, so at what is right now the end of the show they’re all 14/15.
both groups face struggles like bullying (which is often rooted in racism, homophobia, ableism and other things), abusive or neglectful parents (or in max’s case, siblings), personal fears and obviously there are the supernatural plots, so monsters and whatever pennywise is (i didn’t finish the book yet but i think he’s an alien or a semigod but anyway).
the interesting thing is that even if the it kids are younger they show a knowledge of some, idk how to word it, “adult things”. for example some of them smoke — in the movies i’m pretty sure beverly is the only one who does it both in the og and in the remake. the thing that really stuck with me though is that they all know what sex is or even just have a vague idea of it (for example eddie in the book doesn’t really know what exactly is, but shows that he knows that it’s a thing). they make jokes about it and say/think sexual things in general. it’s also connected to eddie’s visions since in the book he sees a man with syphilis who offers to do yk sexual stuff which is connected to his fear of being ill and stuff.
on the other hand the st kids never show to know what sex is, except for max that talks about “happy screams” in s3, which makes sense because max is supposed to be the one who knows more stuff in the group, the one who lived in a city and all that. el then mentions again these “happy screams”, and when someone (i dont remeber who exactly i’m sorry) asks what happy screams are max interrupts el who was about to answer and says that it doesn’t matter — which could be for many reasons. maybe she is embarrassed or something, but when i first watched it i thought “ah she probably doesn’t want to kind of ruin everyone’s innocence” since she showed stress only after that-person asked what happy screams are, which shows that they don’t know what sex is at least in max’s mind.
the question now is why. there’s this difference between these groups, but why? for mainly two reasons.
1. show different ways to cope with trauma
my theory is that stephen king wanted to show how less innocent kids can be after trauma and abuse. he wanted to show the cruel reality, the one where kids are not that innocent even when they’re very young, especially after bad experiences. those experiences make them want to act like grown ups, talking about sex, joking about it and stuff like they think adults do.
stranger things does the complete opposite: the kids are an ideal. if you think about it even after their traumatic experiences they stay sweet and innocent — because let’s be real, they never act really bad. maybe they’re a bit bitchy or something, maybe they distance themselves from the others, but they never do REALLY bad stuff. i mean they acted like mike was a criminal in s2 because he cheated on a test/essay, or because of the graffiti thing. mike also says “everyone graffitis the bathroom stall”, which is true! they act like he’s a really bad kid for doing something normal kids do on a daily basis! another example that i love is that when will is feeling bad he clings to his childhood even more, whether that be playing d&d or going trick or treating or drawing. those are normal things kids do. when max faces depression and anxiety she stops talking to basically everyone — which kids often do, it can even be selective mutism in some cases. and there are many MANY other examples !! like el and mike’s relationship — whenever they’re stressed they scream about how much they love each other, they cling to each other and their relationship, because it was their first crush, their first love (even if you think they never really loved/had a crush on each other it was their first relationship you know?). being each other’s partner is a part of their childhood they cling onto when they’re scared.
2. because they symbolize different things
the losers are an example of how reality is: even things that are supposed to be pure and innocent can be cruel, “dirty”. they’re the symbol of a society that puts each person to their limit, sometimes making them the worst version themselves.
the party members are an ideal. they represent innocence, the “good” in a world full of bad people, bad ideals, bad decisions. they’re a symbol of hope, because a world that is as ugly as theirs needs hope.
+ i also want to point out that it as a whole has a grey type of morality — the kids do bad and good things and at one point you don’t even know what to think about them. richie is a kid that deals with this feeling of alienation from his friends (canon in book and in the movies, but for different reasons), he’s overall a sweet guy, but also makes offensive comments — sometimes these comments are even racist, or fatphobic, or ableist. henry is a character you’re supposed to hate from the first to the last moment, but you’re sometimes even supposed to emphasize with him because at the end of the day he’s been abused his whole live. while in stranger things the characters are inherently good or bad. a black and white kind of morality.
RICHIE TOZIER (Reddie-ish) ANALYSIS — The Eye and It [spoilers]
I was rereading some bits and noticed a pattern in Richie’s fear of eyes, its correlation to It and Eddie being the antithesis to that fear!
1st of all I should establish that It is implied to be somewhat like the troll in ‘The three Billy Goats Gruff’. This is one instance but there are a few times that “or would it feed?” is associated with It (I would like to put the other instances but there is an image limit. Also it is a long book [sorry :P])
-Chapt. 4: Ben Hanscom Takes a Fall
So with this in mind this bit comes off as pretty interesting!
-Chapt. 14: The Album
I just think it’s pretty prophetic?? The way there is a “black eyelid” implied to be It that gives Richie a scare but it’s all ok because of Eddie. It’s also ‘prophetic’ in another sense: it tells us about Eddie’s injury a full chapter before it happens. (I am being pretentious in my wording but you get my point hopefully)
Also! Remember the phrase “we doan need no stinkin batches!” I ironically say to you it is a surprise tool that will help us later.
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This is the scene I believe the previous points at! It’s a really great moment for Eddie, so I like that it is related to him helping Richie, even if his main motivation is to help Bill! It’s fascinating! [also haha mashed potatoes funny]
-Chapt. 20: The Circle Closes
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And then in Eddie’s death scene [:(] this happens!
-Chapt. 22: The Ritual of Chüd
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I guess it’s also worth noting that 2 of the times Eddie has fought and saved Richie of his fear he’s lost something? First his shoe and then his life :(
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Since there is a clearer connection between the chapt20 and chapt22 scenes I would like to add this bit from Chapter 23: Out—>
“We doan need no stinkin batches” ALMOST RIGHT AFTER EDDIE SAVES HIS LIFE!
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So Richie goes from being afraid of eyes implied to be like It to being afraid of It’s Eye form to finally fighting it... and I think it’s almost beautiful that Eddie is always the one to help him.
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I don’t know if I have been concise but!! I hope this makes people think! There are some people who like to talk about the Eye’s symbolism but I am not very good at that stuff so I will simply point this pattern out. [Also this post has some of the best scenes w them so :). See it as a mini-anthology if you wish.]
One of the most interesting aspects in Infinity Train's story is how humans passengers start cults and the process of recruitment. This theme is very prevelent during the second half of Book 2 and all Book 3.
This theme is represented with "The Apex": a group commopsed of very young passengers who go from car to car harrassing citizens of the train and stealing their goods. They are first introduced in the series in the episode "The Lucky Cat Car" in Book 2.
In this post i'm going to write a detailed analysis explaining what is a cult, why the Apex could be considered a cult and the reasons why passengers would join the group in first place.
To do this i'm going to cite a few sources about cults and the psychology behind cult recruitment, which you'll find at the end of this post.
Let's start:
1) The definition of the word "Cult".
According to Sociologist Janja Lalich who speciales in cults the definition of a cult is:
¨A cult can be either a sharply-bounded social group or a diffusely-bounded social movement held together through shared commitment to a charismatic leader. It upholds a transcendent belief system (often but not always religious in nature) that includes a call for a personal transformation. It also requires a high level of personal commitment from its members in words and deeds.¨
Another details she talks about in her article are:
¨This definition is not meant to be evaluative in the sense of implying that a group is good, bad, benign, or harmful. Rather it is meant to convey a systemic view of such a group, which is comprised of a charismatic relationship, a promise of fulfillment, and a methodology by which to achieve it.¨
¨Each group must be observed and judged on its own merits and its own practices and behaviors as to whether it falls within this category type, which is not meant to be dismissive or one-sided¨
The Ted-Ed video: ¨Why Do People Join Cults?¨ gives a similar definition:
¨Broadly speaking, a cult is a group or movement with a shared commitment to a usually extreme ideology that's typically embodied in a charismatic leader. A typical cult requires a high level of commitment from its members and maintains a strict hierarchy, separating unsuspecting supporters and recruits from the inner workings. It claims to provide answers to life's biggest questions through its doctrine, along with the required recipe for change that shapes a new member into a true believer.¨
To put it in simpler words: A cult by definition is a social group which has a very strong belief system (this doesn´t mean it is religious), it’s controlled by a charismatic leader whose followers rarely question. The members of the group have to obey an specific set of rules that are usually created by the leaders of the cult. Critical thinking is very often discouraged between the members.
The word cult isn´t meant to be good or bad. It’s just a way to describe a social group with specific characteristics. The definition itself isn´t exact, one has to learn about the group first before labeling it as a cult.
Now, how do the Apex from Infinity Train fall in this category?
2) The Apex as a cult.
For this part of the analysis I’m going to cite common characteristics of cults and how they do apply to the Apex. I’m going to add multiple examples of how the Apex members behave, how they interact with their leaders (Grace and Simon) and their ideology.
¨The group displays an excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.¨
In the series, the Apex members consider Grace and Simon as unquestionable leaders. They follow their commands including those that are indicate to hurt train citiziens.
When Grace snaps her fingers in one of the kids immediately listens to her and goes to her side, kneeling when he meets her. (The Lucky Cat Car).
Simon also kneels before Grace in next episode since he is supposed to be second in command.
In ¨The Music Car¨ all the members pledge to the leaders and salute them:
¨Apex!
May our spirits be high!
And our numbers higher!
Down with the false Conductor!¨
Both Grace and Simon appear to have a special status within the group as they are given gifts by the kids when the raid a car as seen in the first episode. It’s not stated if this is part of their routine as way for each member to prove they are worthy of being a Apex but considering the rules of the group it is very possible assumption.
¨Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.¨
In ¨The Mall Car¨ after Jesse refuses to follow Grace orders and stands up for Lake and Alan, Grace responds by telling him he made a big mistake and uses her mirror to let the flecks catch Lake.
This is a huge contrast with how she was very friendly with Jesse at the start of the episode. Grace´s sudden change of behavior comes from how Jesse didn´t accept her authority and realized how he was being manipulated.
This is another example of The Apex behaving as a cult: In the moment someone doesn´t want to follow Grace or Simon´s orders, they are seen as an enemy who opposes the Apex and there before must be punished. Disagreement is very discouraged in cults groups. Those who show any sign of disagreement or doubt are mocked, guilt tripped and called out.
A more subtle case of this happening when one of the kids,Lucy, calls a train citizen a ¨person¨. Grace corrects him by telling him that the train citizen is ¨another toy the train made to amuse us.¨ She makes Lucy feel ashamed for doubting the Apex ideology by mocking her in front of Simon: ¨Aw, that's cute. Lucy thinks it's a person¨ (The Music Car).
¨The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members (e.g., the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity.¨
The Apex believe that they are entitled to their car. They are above the train citizens, they are allowed to take and hurt them as much as they want because for the Apex the citizens aren’t real and they don’t experience emotions.
¨She doesn't even have a number. (..) ¨She's not a passenger¨.(..) Exactly, she's a null. Null, it means nothing, not even a zero.¨ Grace talking about Lake in ¨The Mall Car¨
¨I've got a number, and you don't. You two are only as good as you are useful.¨ Simon referring to Alan Dracula and Lake.
The group itself refers to the old conductor as their as divine figure, who inspires them everyday and has been stolen from his true place by the ¨false conductor¨, who is One-One. It’s almost as the old conductor is their god because it has the highest number in the train.
Grace mentions multiple times in Book 3 how she was saved by the conductor. It´s heavily implied she believes she has been chosen and how she´s the only one that who knows how the conductor looks like.
In Apex ideology, the numbers are very important: They determine your status in the community. The higher the number, the more powerful you are. To increase your number you have to do the tasks the leaders give to you. These tasks involve destroying, stealing and hurting citizens. The person with the highest number is the leader of the group.
¨The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group¨
While wrecking the car in the episode ¨The Lucky Cat Car¨ Grace mentions how the Apex are just doing what they must to survive. This shows a very explicit example of ¨the the end justify the means¨ that is common to find in cults. Grace and the other Apex kids are clear they don´t care about stealing and hurting citizens as long as they are able to increase their numbers and get resources.
Another example of this is when Grace and Simon plan to getting rid of Tuba to take Hazel with them in Book 3. This implies they don’t care about separating kids from their train companions to make them join the Apex. It wouldn´t be farfetched to think they have done this before with other young passengers to isolate them and persuade them into staying with the group.
In case of Jesse in Book 2, Grace tries to convince him to participate in a raid by breaking a cube from a train car. She tries making Jesse believe that those without numbers aren´t real and lack capacity to experience actual pain. Before that she told him to throw food under the train by saying he is ¨free to do whatever he wants¨. This case is more about how members make non-members commit morally questionable actions before they become full members.
¨Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.¨
Very often when joining a cult members are asked to keep distance from their close relationships (family and friends). Applying different methods, the leaders seek to isolate the new members from their family to control them more easily and thus making doubt less of the orders they are following.
In Infinity Train, the apex often try to separate kids and teenagers from their train companions. To do this, they manipulate the passengers into believing that their companions are just ¨toys to play with¨ and that the Apex are going to give them a home to live.
In ¨The Mall Car¨ Grace asks Lake to stay to look for Alan Dracula while Jesse goes with the Apex kids. Grace did this on purpose to be alone with Jesse and cause problems between him and Lake’s relationship.
After Lake stays behind, Grace starts talking about how Lake is getting Jesse into trouble and how the train is a ¨scary and lonely place¨. By giving Jesse all these negative thoughts she intends to giving him more reasons to not continue his journey and be part of the group.
In Book 3, Grace and Simon try applying something similar with Hazel and Tuba. They try to make Hazel to leave Tuba’s side and getting rid of the citizen. Much like Lake and Jesse, Tuba and Habel have a very strong bond which means they are going to have a hard time encouraging Hazel to ditch her friend.
One detail worth of adding is that they considered Tuba a threat because of her huge muscular form which made her look really intimidating. Someone like her was a obstacle that was impeding them to recruit Hazel.
¨Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.¨
The Apex believe there was a conspiracy against the old conductor and the new conductor (One-One) is the false conductor. They seem to hold into this idea that old conductor was overthrown and their true place is being in charge the train.
When Amelia is explaining them that she used to be the old conductor and she isn´t prisoner of One-On, Simon keeps accusing her of spreading false propaganda and insist Grace that she is trying to trick them. In this scenario, it makes some sense for someone to be skeptical, especially if they held a very strong belief system like Grace and Simon do.
3) Why would passengers join the Apex?
After watching how badly the apex treat the train citizens and separate kids from their companions, why would someone join them? It may look like only those who want to commit vandalism and have a extreme prejudice against citizens would but if one analyses how the train operates it makes perfect sense.
When a kid gets on the train, they are completely separated from their family. Unless they find a kind companion, they are going to be completely alone stuck in a unknown place without adults to take care of them. They are very likely going to feel lost and scared not knowing what they have to do and what they should go.
Combine all this factors and they make a very easy target for a cult movement like the Apex to recruit: The members can take care of them, give them a place to belong, have friends and a sense of community. The kid passengers don’t have to worry about anything as long as the follow the rules.
Cults seeks to recruit people who are in a state of extreme vulnerability, who have issues fitting in or may feel lost. The members give these people a new purpose. They say ¨we can be your new home, your family¨ which leads to people to be persuaded into joining.
In the two examples in the series, Hazel and Jesse, Grace talks to them about how great the Apex are: They are going to help them, they will take care of them and keep them safe from the dangers of the train.
With Jesse, Grace tells him ¨how she cares about people¨. She fills his mind with how the Apex are good and they can do whatever they one. She’s very friendly with him and even invites him to jump from car to car.
In the case of Hazel, Grace tells her how they are going to help her with fixing her number. She also mentions how Hazel is going to meet tons of other kids once they reach the Apex car.
She knows that kids like Jesse and Hazel feel confused inside the train and takes advantage of their weaknesses to trick them into becoming Apex members.
In Conclusion:
For the reasons I wrote in this post, one could interpret the Apex from Infinity Train as a cult or a social group that shares characteristics found in cults : They have a very specific type of almost religious ideology, they think having more numbers gives them a special status, they rarely have doubts in their leaders and don´t care about hurting people to get what they want.
I think that the Apex is one of the most interesting themes of the series. It explores what happens when many young passengers start working together and create their own society with its own rules while showing how people come together when they find themselves lost in a place they don´t understand. It’s worth of analyzing the psychological and sociological aspects of this community and how they work.
Hey, yeah, One-One, what the hell were you thinking when you made the pig baby car?
I... honestly dunno if One-One designed that? The cow creamer says something about making Ryan and Min the “new” pig baby. It came across to me like he made a kitchen car that’s just grown out of control into what the fuck land.
i went to the rerelease of it tonight and while i was watching i noticed something
this scene right here.
this shot specifically.
as we all know, the hobo offering eddie a blowjob scene wasn’t in the movie, but, as @toziertrashmouth and i theorized, this scene is a replacement for acknowledging eddie’s fear of sexuality
the shape of the balloons caught my eye, especially in juxtaposition with a strongly gay-coded character
the pink triangle, especially an upside down one, was a symbol that represented gay people. as the article above says, it was once used to shame, but has been reclaimed by some as a symbol of pride.
while pennywise’s balloons are his signature red, eddie’s shirt is pink, which could symbolize his connection to the symbol.
additionally, pennywise is standing behind the balloon formation because eddie’s fear of his sexuality is mostly kept hidden, but is still a very large part of who he is (hence the size difference between the balloons and pennywise)
now of course, this could just be me/us reading way too much into this one part of the scene, and it actually could have no correlation, it’s just a clown holding balloons. this also isn’t as eloquent an explanation as i’d like it to be, but i couldn’t get it out of my head once i saw it. so there’s our analysis about another aspect of the movie and how it addressed eddie’s gay coding and sexuality.
Richie may seem silly due to his jokes and impressions, but people who have read the book, know that he’s actually pretty smart. His grades are good, and throughout the story, he has moments of enlightenment such as this. He just has a hard time showing his wisdom in social situations. This is from chapter 15, when they are about to perform the smokehole ceremony.
One thing I realized about infinity book four recently: I don't think Min-Gi knows Ryan and Kez tried to get to him in the art gallery car, and I doubt they told him (Kez avoids stuff & Ryan clearly felt that he considered taking his exit was basically abandoning Min). Also, since most train car doors aren't see-through, he might not know they knew he needed help. Min might be under the impression that he almost died, & they were right outside, oblivious.
Not to mention Ryan clearly didn’t intend to leave? He reached a hand out to touch the door but I doubt he expected it to suck him and Kez up and spit them out without Min!
