Hi! I wanted to reflect on this line from the game:
«He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him. But perhaps you wish to degrade yourself. And he knows it.»
Since I don’t run my blog on a full-time basis, I decided to share this with you instead - I’d be glad if you added your own thoughts to my reflections, because this is such an interesting topic.
First of all, I want to start by saying that I’m aware Welch took part in the creation of this scene, and I know what meaning they intended to convey through it. At the very least, I’ll give them credit for being honest - they openly admitted that everything they said was merely their personal interpretation of Astarion’s behavior (verbatim: “At least that’s how I interpret him.”). And since Welch isn’t the original writer of the character and only joined the team during the later stages of development, I don’t believe they can claim to have a deep or authentic understanding of Astarion, nor should their words be taken as an absolute truth.
Welch stated that, in Astarion’s case, they were interested in exploring the theme of “parasocial relationships” with a character - just as they did in their own game Don’t Wake Me Up. Because of that, we can see an element of self-plagiarism here: they essentially transfer the same ideas and techniques from Don’t Wake Me Up into Baldur’s Gate 3, which undermines the internal logic of the story and the player’s agency. I mean, reducing the player’s motivation to help Astarion ascend to one narrow and rather specific impulse is downright idiotic. According to Welch, people take certain actions in games as a form of seeking a reward in the shape of a sex scene - because the gaming industry has supposedly trained us to do so. But why couldn’t that same logic apply to the “good” ending as well? There’s also an intimate scene at the graveyard - albeit a less explicit one. Most players will pick the “good” ending simply because that’s how the majority tends to play; evil playthroughs aren’t for everyone. Does that mean the “good” players supposedly care about Astarion more, while the others choose Ascension only to get a sex scene? That logic is deeply flawed and collapses under even minimal critical scrutiny.
I know that Welch often uses the word “degradation” in a sexual context, for example: “Players in the fan fiction communities had been joking for years post-Early Access about the different degenerate things they wanted to do with Druid Daddy Halsin (…)”. Similarly, in Act 2, after the encounter with Araj Oblodra, if you do not have a romantic relationship with Astarion, he says that all his victims “degrade yourself” by giving in to his seduction tactics. I think he doesn’t say this on the romantic path because Tav also gave in to his tactics in Act 1.
Ultimately, from Welch’s perspective, the interpretation of this line is more than clear. But I like that the line is written so ambiguously, because how it’s interpreted reflects the player and their inner mindset; it tells us almost nothing about Astarion, but a lot about ourselves. That’s why some people insist: “He thinks he’ll never be able to respect you again!” while others see it as Astarion’s insecurity, believing he thinks Tav is devaluing themselves by staying with him, feeling unworthy of that love and of Tav. I don’t agree with either interpretation, but I like how the same line can be understood in such different ways. When Stephen Rooney was asked how this scene should be interpreted, he said: “I would just say that when it comes to anything in the game, your take on it as a player is much more important than any writer's take. It's your adventure and whatever you take from it is your own valid experience.”
«He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him.»
He perceives being in a relationship with him as something unworthy of Tav. This could be connected to:
• His new position as a vampire lord, seeing himself as a being of a higher order and internally convinced that he now stands above others, even those he loves; in vampire society and among lawful evil characters in general, hierarchy is taken for granted.
• Or that he “knows” being with him is improper, unwise, or bad for you, and yet you remain.
«But perhaps you wish to degrade yourself. And he knows it.»
If Tav stays with him, despite his darkness, despite the power imbalance, despite potentially unequal roles, it might involve conscious submission. And perhaps it even brings pleasure or satisfaction: being with him no matter what, willingly yielding. This can be interpreted as:
• an element of a dom-sub dynamic (according to Welch, relationships with AA come down to kinks and fetishes, which I disagree with, because the dynamic of a royal couple also fits perfectly into the tone of AA/Consort, where kneeling is also appropriate);
• a metaphor for emotional dependence;
• a way for Tav to express absolute trust and devotion, even if it is perceived as “self-sacrifice” or a renunciation of pride.
It is also significant that Tav agrees to become his spawn (regardless of whether you believe in the “bride” theory or not) - that is, they give consent specifically to become his spawn (after all, Tav cannot know that Astarion intends to give them his blood). At the very least, Astarion can perceive it as Tav/Dark Urge giving him an extraordinary amount, essentially placing their life in his hands. And, in essence, the kneeling scene symbolizes this very act of giving him their life. Logically, an ordinary/normal person shouldn’t agree to something like this, but for some reason, the protagonist does. And this makes Astarion think: perhaps they even enjoy it? I find this logical. «You have given me everything. Thank you.»
He may be aware that his presence in Tav’s life is destructive, or at the very least transformative.
BUT this sentence does not provide a direct emotional or moral judgment from Astarion. There is no approval or condemnation. There is only a fact of perception - that he sees Tav’s actions as an act of degrading yourself. This is merely his subjective opinion, not necessarily reflecting his inner feelings - respect, love, or contempt.
We cannot claim that he despises Tav or does not respect them based solely on this sentence.
Essentially, this sentence is not about how Astarion feels about Tav, but about how he interprets their decision to stay with him. The emotional tone of this sentence is assigned by us.
Hello and thank you for your post <3
I do have something (and maybe a lot) to add, of course. I really, really do not like how Mx Welch handles the characters, not only Astarion, but all of them who they got to work on: Halsin and Haarlep. Because deep down their initial motivation was never to write a proper character - which they themselves admitted.
About Halsin and Haarlep
This one quote of them and so-called "fanfiction community" wanting to do "degenerate things" to Halsin says a lot. First of all, I do believe not everybody from fanfiction community-only were sharing the same "wants" for this character, and not everybody of the fanbase are even into fanfiction at all. So this leaves an impression that Mx Welch were only cattering to their own selfish wants with some few people agreeing and joining them, completely ignoring the major part of other community.
Second, you can also see how exactly they write characters - as a "joke". You know, maybe deep down I feel sorry for Halsin as a character. He had a potential to become something more. He was already given quite significant position in the game's whole story: he is a thousand years old elf Archdruid, he was fighting Ketheric Thorm and Shar's cultists back in Reithwin Town alongside with Harpers (eventually losing the battle and cursing the whole land). He has his own story conflict that can be resolved. He has it all and it could be perfect just like that - if only he wasn't degraded to be "a gay bear joke". Don't get me wrong here - I have absolutely nothing against it initially. But it could have been done better, much better. Instead now we have this giant horny disaster without any proper romance and complete lack of any content with him besides, again, sex in Act 3.
You can't even say "no" to him properly. You say you aren't interested and later he tries to do the same thing again. And the way he tries to get laid with Main Character always creeps me the fuck out. So much that I don't have positive feelings about this character anymore. Just a walking wasted potential, that's who he is now.
The same with Haarlep. It would seem hard to ruin a character which base is literally being a sex devil. But no, apparently you can ruin this one too. Not to mention that even with incubus you can write a normal character and a scene with him outside of a whole sex topic. He is literally a spy. There was such a large field of potential - again, completely lost and wasted.
"You failed to see him outside of your own fantasies", - says Mx Welch about Astarion while degrading Halsin to daddy gay bear joke and Haarlep to rape kink. Not hypocritical even in the slightest.
I'm not here to say "sex is bad", because it isn't, as I have nothing against it. But when you write characters and stories that circle around only sex topic only (and not in the way it was written in Astarion's story) just to catter to your own fantasies - it is repulsive. I came here to get into the story, I came into the game to feel these characters, to get involved into them, their troubles, their conflicts, and have a proper romance that won't jump right into sex from the very start and then be "sex only", but the writer is a clown who made a circus out of everything. Lovely. /s
Such things as kinks must be an addittions to characters, but not their "whole point".
About Astarion
In Astarion's writing coming from Mx Welch we see their projection of their own personal interpretation of a character much more clearly. He was their main focus and target after all, so to speak. It is undeniable at this point that the whole narrative about "Astarion becoming abuser and Cazador 2.0" have roots from their work and later commentaries. Because initially this is how they perceive his character - either becoming someone completely else that isn't him, aka denying the Ascension, so-called "redemption arc" and the final of "i can fix him" (which is another joke), or becoming, again, a walking "kink" of degrading yourself and being abused.
Saying that people Ascend Astarion only for kinks and sex purposes is equally absurd as if we will say "people deny Astarion ascension to have a goth graveyard sex scene with him and complete their "I can fix him" fantasy". Even in a small group of people everyone can be so different from each other - and BG3 fan community is large. Everyone has their own reasons, opinions, goals, views etc. It is, frankly, idiotic to row them all under one comb.
At least we can actually work with their "degrading" line coming from perception check outside of their own interpretation they tried so hard to impose on people. Stephen Rooney has the healthiest and more professional standpoint. "Once you give your work to fans, it no longer belongs to you" - I don't remember who's quote it was, but it is how Rooney works too.
Indeed, there are many ways we, as fans, can interpret this line. It could be Astarion's deep insecurities about his own worth of genuine unconditional love. After all, he doesn't even quite believe you when you tell him that in the end, you chose him among all other people. It could be that he himself realises that someone else from the group might be more "fitting" option for PC to romance and stick by. Maybe even safer (even though this whole group is a walking armageddon). He is a vampire, and in the world in Faerun almost everybody is afraid of vampires, or not even perceiving them as individuals with personalitites. Yet here he is, with someone genuinely deep in love with him despite it all and all for it - after his confession that he was seducing them on purpose for his safety. He surely must have been puzzled, to put it mildly.
Now imagine how astonished he must be when this same person isn't only genuinely loving him, but absolutely ready to give their whole life to him. You made a great point - Tav/DU is unaware that Astarion does not plan to turn them into mere spawn as he was before. And you don't really have to imagine - you simply need to see and hear it yourself. The way he is almost breathless when he looks at PC, now a vampire, his vampire partner, saying "thank you for trusting me" is his own dreams coming true. He values trust the most above all other traits. He enjoys being a vampire, actually, so what could be more perfect than being vampires together with his partner, the only he had for so long? He tries his best to show his gratitude as he only can - he shares his powers, he is ready to give the whole world to his partner, "yours and mine alone".
You don't even have to agree on sex here, and you can skip this scene, and still be turned into his vampire spouse. He gives PC a choice - and he respects that. The other failure in Welch's work is how they tried to portray Ascended Astarion the way that he won't accept anything else but the "choices" only he approves, as you cannot directly refuse from becoming a vampire and still be his partner. But it is still possible in the game, and it still has its own unique lines if you stay his mortal partner. The way to have it is crutchy, but you just have to Ascend him and then immediately go to fight Netherbrain.
The way you can see that "degrading line" from Astarion's POV is thinking "they must be really crazy to agree on it all and still be with me". And he would only love it more - as he was always showing more interest in unconventional.