#p5 meta

[roseblossom01]

I am not a fan of the idea of stealing Akechi’s heart.

I see it occasionally as a theme throughout shuake works, and it never makes sense to me.

Akechi’s entire story is about agency, the ways he’s been stripped of it, and the ways he copes with that. To steal his heart is to reinforce the idea that his agency doesn’t matter.

Stealing hearts is a form of ego-death. The person before having their heart stolen and then afterwards are not the same. And so, in choosing to steal his heart, we deny him the chance to ever realize that he is good enough on his own, without having to be a different person. This isn’t to say he doesn’t have to change—he should certainly stop murdering people at the least—but we have to acknowledge that the capacity for good is inside him and wants to be brought to the forefront.

I think of the line, “why couldn’t we have met a few years earlier?” It’s a very honest line because it is a recognition of regret. As little as he allows himself to admit it, he does regret where things are. On top of this, though, he doesn’t bother posturing goodness. Shido portrays himself as a visionary, leading the country into the future. Okumura does a similar thing with leading humanity to space. Akechi doesn’t. He is able to acknowledge himself as an evildoer and doesn’t pretend otherwise. In my opinion, these show that he does have the capacity for good.

Akechi’s entire life has been a series of difficult choices, milestones he holds onto as proof of his agency. His choice to kill, his choice to team up with Shido, his choice to shoot Ren. But in reality, these are not markers of agency. He didn’t choose to kill, not really. He was manipulated, first by a system that wanted him dead and then by a man who wanted him as a weapon. He never had a quiet moment when things were safe and the world didn’t need him bearing his teeth. He never had a chance to reflect on his actions or to realize that he could change them. He never had agency.

To steal Akechi’s heart is to say “I don’t believe you have the ability to change, and I refuse to give you the agency to prove otherwise.” It is wrong, and it is a misreading of his character, in my opinion.

The true best option, therefore, is simply to give him stability and safety. A pleasant relationship with someone he loves, time to reflect on his deeds outside of the threat of the axe dropping, proof that he is worth loving no matter what. This, finally, returns him the agency he deserves.

[megaderping]

Another reason I'm an Akechi Lives truther: cognition, baby. Vanilla P5 reveals that Morgana only lived in the end due to the Thieves' cognition/bond with him. Persona 5 Royal made the conscious choice to give Akechi endure, which lets you survive a fatal hit at 1 HP if you max his confidant, and maxing his confidant is the only way he appears in the postcredits. If ever there was a place where power of love, bonds, or cognition could make a miracle happen, it's the Metaverse. So maybe we don't need a huge, complex explanation. Maybe the connection Joker and Akechi share is enough. Now if only Atlus would give us a followup...

[vashtijoy]

I've seen lots of people reference the fact that apparently in canon Akechi tracked down and got recruited by Shido when he was 15, but I don't recall any moment in game that mentions this? I love your in-depth Persona analysis and mistranslation breakdowns so I figured you'd be the best person to go to.

Hi, and thank you! I'll do my best. This one stems from the meeting between Shido and Akechi on 11/21, the evening after Akechi attempts to murder Joker:

Shido: "It's already been two and half years since we met."

"two and half years", ah, Atlus West, never change

Two and a half years before November 21st, 2016 is, of course, May 21st, 2014—a matter of days before Akechi's sixteenth birthday. There is room for flexibility here; it could be exactly May 21st, or it could be some time out on either side; you decide. Myself, I think it's probably significant that this date places Akechi just below one of the thresholds for criminal responsibility, at age sixteen.

evil dad's evil dadding

By the way, I'm fond of this sequence, which I think gets an undeserved bad rap. It packs in a hell of a lot of backstory, and is a lot cleverer than it's often assumed to be.

Akechi: "... Wakaba Isshiki, was it? That researcher. She wouldn't have had to die if she just complied."

Remember, Akechi's seemingly-casual mentions of Wakaba are never casual; they are always associated with some kind of emotional tension. Wakaba was his first murder, and he's never forgotten. For all that Akechi seems perky as hell in this scene, he's not. He has only five lines in the first part of the sequence, and he mentions Joker in three of them!

It's easy to take the exposition in the second half of the sequence as entirely unprompted. But if you follow that thread from the first half, then you can see all this reminiscing actually has a purpose: Shido is building Akechi back up again.

He's talking about where they've been. He's talking about where they're going. He's praising Akechi for work well done, telling him how unique and special and necessary he is!—surely the sort of praise Shido has long found super effective. He tells Akechi he's irreplaceable. He does it all in a way that suggests this is their normal.

And he tells him repeatedly why Joker's murder was necessary:

This whole sequence, of course, suffers (and gains much of its bad reputation) from being translated through several old football socks:

Shido 無能なヤツらと一緒に滅びてやることはない。私が国家を復活へと導く。 munouna yatsura to issho ni horobite yaru koto wa nai. watashi ga kokka o fukatsu e to michibiku There's no need to be ruined along with such incompetent fools. I will lead this country to its revival. But ruin won’t be our fate, as those incompetents would have it. Instead, I’ll bring this country to its rebirth. Shido 理想の達成には、時に邪魔者の排除もやむなし⋯それが『異世界』の正しい使い方というものだ。 risou no tassei ni wa, toki ni jamamono no haijo mo yamunashi... sore ga "isekai" no tadashii tsukai kata to iu mono da Those who get in the way must be eliminated at times—that’s the correct way to use the Metaverse. There’s no way around it—if I’m to achieve my ideals, those in my way will sometimes have to be removed. That’s the right way to use the Metaverse.

In the first line, we have ことはない koto wa nai, often used to reassure people. "We don't need to be ruined along with those incompetent fools." Shido's first-person ～てやる ~te yaru, here, includes Akechi: "we will"; note that on the second sentence, he has to clarify that he now means only himself, with 私 watashi, "I".

And in the second line, we have that やむなし yamunashi, which expresses a sense of regret, of inevitability. "We have no other option here, no alternative".

This is not just shoehorned-in exposition, not just a poorly-written scene. Shido knows this is hard for Akechi. He knows Joker's murder hit him hard, and he is openly commiserating with him—and, of course, manipulating him. Shido knows Akechi is not a born killer, even if the audience often misses it.

This sequence is where we most clearly see Shido as the puppet master, pulling the strings of vulnerabilities Akechi can't admit even to himself. Shido is presenting Akechi with a poisoned apple, a toxic mimic of a father-son relationship. He's rewarding Akechi with what he can't admit he truly wants—time with his father, who listens to his problems and attempts to put them right. Even if it's in the twisted, mutually manipulative way you'd expect.

And this sequence is why I believe portrayals of this relationship where Shido is routinely, openly abusive miss the mark somewhat. Shido doesn't yell at people he wants something from. No, he charms them, manipulates them. He gives them what they want—and in return, they give him everything.

And Akechi, the boy from the gutter, wants so much.

revision history

Click here for the latest version.

v1.0 (27th July 2025)—first published.

v1.1 (27th July 2025)—clarification.

[desuscitation]

thinking sooooo hard about the removed akechi mementos request. not only because we got to see him Ace Detective-ing (peak!) but because the moral of it all is so. Akechi. very long rant incoming

one of the major things that I think sets him apart from the rest of the thieves is that he doesn’t believe that circumstances lessen the effects of actions. like at all. there are multiple examples of this but the cutscene during marukis fight where he’s the only one to keep attacking (and him being the only one to show outright disdain towards maruki in general) + the thieves den conversation with yusuke about shido / madarame (Y: “Perhaps there was a certain misstep in his life that eventually led him so astray.” A: “So you’re saying he may not have been truly evil? Your drivel’s as outlandish as always…”) are ones that stand out to me most. he doesn’t care about what causes bad people to be the way they are, and he doesn’t care what otherwise good people’s intentions are when they do bad things. the act itself is what matters

it goes without saying that this extends to himself, I mean he outright states that he cant comprehend the phantom thieves not just killing him after the engine room fight. he didn’t mean that as a “wow... I can’t believe you’re being so nice to little old me….” moment. it was him being genuinely confused as to why they’re still trying to get him on their side. because he didn’t say anything he said to gain pity points with them, nor does he think the things he said deserve enough pity points to spare his life

and then you have this mementos request. in which a corrupt diet member has a son with his mistress, who subsequently commits suicide, and then falsely accuses the son of a crime many years down the line. “you all want to help that poor victim, don’t you?” akechi says. the poor victim, who was enacting a revenge plot on his criminal father that made him into a criminal as well. huh.

again, this is all coming from the guy who like a month ago, got a heartfelt speech about how he can still come back from what he’s done because the thieves can understand where he’s coming from. this happens at (arguably) his emotional lowest, where it probably hits harder than it could at any other time. and this is his direct response to that. this is him saying, in essence, that their kind words at the end were nonsensical, because his circumstances Don’t Matter

after he sends these texts, morgana goes “But akechi is just like him…” because it’s true, but that’s the Point. It makes no difference that akechi can empathize, and place himself directly in toji’s shoes. he had a hunch about the truth the entire time, and he still aided in making toji’s act of extortion exposed. understanding the viewpoint of someone who does bad things Does Not Matter to him

and that, to me, is what his sense of justice is at it’s core. which is why in the end, he doesn’t have that same sympathy for himself that everyone else does. he killed people. end of story. no other notes

and my god! I really wish they kept this in because it really hammers in that extra layer he has to him. atlus do you hate me

[medeas-eyes]

so, “goro akechi” is a chosen name, right? thats always been my assumption—i cannot see a man as particular, as careful (well…) as him approaching shido with his birth name. shido knew his mother intimately, after all, he surely had her under strict enough watch to know her surname

additionally, i dont think you really wind up as a detective named after kogoro goddamn akechi by accident. goro was practically raised on tv—his media consumption wove his idea of what an exceptional person is, what his ideal self became. naming himself after a fictional ideal is exactly the kind of thing akechi would do

if this were true, though, it certainly is not an alias; theres genuine identification with that name beyond potential obfuscation of his identity to shido

to be clear, im not supposing this with absolute conviction; goro—吾郎—means my son (as i understand), and while i can easily see this as an intentional choice to honour her, perhaps detracts significance from mamakechi’s decision. but i still think it being a chosen name has narrative and thematic merit. it is worth consideration, at the very least

[detective-pancake]

Hey, so I don't want to be that guy, but when are we going to acknowledge that Akechi was right?

No, I obviously don't mean about the things he was very clearly wrong about. I'm referring to the things he says in interviews about the Phantom Thieves. I hate how many people switch up after playing through his betrayal who previously agreed with his views, because nothing he said is wrong and nothing he did changes that fact. He speaks in the TV Station on the objective facts that he should know about, and with or without the context of his form of justice those facts stay true. It's a fallacy to claim that his form of justice being universally less approved of makes the Phantom Thieves better by comparison, or discredits anything he said. I don't think the Phantom Thieves are evil, or that they should necessarily be imprisoned, but I do think that they are not morally sound. They're kids. Prior to his betrayal I think he served his purpose well, but it's easy to disregard the validity of his words when you find out that he's a murderer. With the knowledge he SHOULD have had (and that many DID have), everything he says is true. And honestly? It still can be true for basically the entire plot of the game. Mishima's confidant tests the thieves in that way. They could have changed the hearts of anyone who's not a persona user, for any personal reason. It's a slippery slope.

I'll use these three options as an example for why he's right:

"They're justice itself" is just subjective and incorrect, because justice as a concept is individualized and given how each Phantom Thief has different reasons for being one it's ridiculous for even them to say. Their first target was before they even formed a group, and Ann was ready to kill Kamoshida. The others were not even going to step in, and they were going to respect her choice either way. All the members are so different, so this is an insane claim to make.

"They're necessary" is wrong because to say they are necessary is pretty disingenuous to all "justice" that has ever happened BEFORE they existed. I don't believe that the Thieves were a necessity per say, and personally I think their actions can only be judged on a case by case basis. Some Mementos targets for example have issues that stem beyond what they have done. Now they have their desires stolen but still have the issue that pushed them to immortality in the first place, plus a shitton of guilty baggage. The Thieves only help with the atonement, but not the push. How many of those people didn't just go right back to their past behaviors? How many of them got worse in other ways? Think about Futaba, she felt so guilty for something she thought she did, she formed a palace to condemn herself to die alone. To claim the Thieves are necessary to reform society implies that their method is the most effective, and I think that's a lot to claim for something they don't understand.

"They do more than the cops" I almost agree with. Legally the police in Japan in this game anyway (yes I'm aware it extends to reality in many ways, but I'm referring to just the game right now) are corrupt and flawed for the most part, but the thing I don't agree with is that this makes the Thieves a better alternative. They're not. For the same reason Yoshizawa says later, the Thieves can only do so much as vigilantes, and to imply that society should rely on these faceless nameless flawed people to fix society is not any better than what they have now. Especially with the method being unknown, potentially unsafe, and easily exploitable. I cannot be the only one who if the Phantom Thieves were real, would be extremely alarmed by the prospect of a group of vigilantes "changing hearts" right? It's so vague, and the pattern is dystopian. At least police methods are familiar

What I'm saying is that they're kids, and it's kind of insane that this game places Akechi as the narrative foil for the Thieves in their message and then makes it so easy to disregard because "he's an assassin so how could he know anything about justice". The Thieves don't either, and Ann was nearly a murderer. If the bar is "don't commit murder when you're infiltrating someone's mind" then it's far too low. I wouldn't trust a group of adults with this power to reform society, even less a group of teenage vigilantes. I'm 19, and I find this odd. And Strikers frames them as even more righteous, and it bugs me even more in that game. At least Royal has the third semester to give a bit more nuance to how big of a responsibility Ren was given, but that's also very frequently misinterpreted.

I love this game, and I love this fandom, and I have thoughts that get weird and ranty. I apologize, but I hope you all found this as interesting as I did.

[npd-goro-akechi]

Saw a little reddit post asking about a few of Akechi's last words in the engine room, "After all this, that's what you have to say? Seriously, you really are..." so naturally I sat there and thought about it for a while. My conclusion was that any word could have gone after the ellipsis and it would've worked. You really are an idiot, interesting, better than me, my equal, stupid. I think in that moment this was Akechi grappling with all the conflicting feelings he has about joker and then accepting them. The sentence remains unfinished because there is no one word Akechi can use to put his feelings into words

[akechi-goro-lover]

sometimes i just think abt how much goro (canonically) cares for joker and it makes me sad a little bit.