May I ask why you don’t like Jace and Sara Snow? I wouldn’t say it’s the same as Rhaegar and Lyanna, but the situation does have some similarities. Maybe it’s even closer to Robb and Jeyne/Talisa (though I’m not sure if you like that pairing). Personally, I think Sara isn’t real, but let’s pretend she is for a moment. What about their dynamic doesn’t work for you?
Anon is either talking about all the Sara Snow posts I've done or this post.
Rhaegar could have failed bc (one may argue) he was way too idealistic that he let ideas of heroism carry him away from observing issues with is own acrions or how e implemented a lot of them. So he was both irresponsible in one sense and was obsessed w/fufilling an ultimate level of "responsibility" through a prophecy I think he took as way to justify/redeem the corruption around him. On the other hand, Rhaegar was inspired by Lyanna to be more hands on or try to be in his duties concerning real people (as she stood up for someone else), bucking against expectations, and having some sort of remove/relief from the weight of his responsibilities as the one taking the prophecy seriously.
Yes, he wanted to be "authentic", but went about it unfairly & disastrously under that inevitable weight. Jace didn't have this issue.
I explain why Jace and Sara vs Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't similar enough to warrant the pairing people put them in the link above.
Other than what I wrote there, it's also bc Rhaegar did not abandon Elia (at least not to die; his fault in some ways, yeah, but not ALL his and people make as if he went out of his way to make sure his family were in danger for p*ssy; Jace did not have the same problem of hyper-idealism as Rhaegar to believe that things would work out & thus put his family at risk), like Jace would be doing to Baela and Rhaenyra IF Sara Snow and him were a thing and married AND to be like what people think Rhaegar did, Jace would have had to run off somewhere else entirely with Sara and trigger another problem for himself and the whole black team...which doesn't happen.
Even if Sara were real, nothing came of it. She's still at Winterfell. He quite clearly came back and resumed his duties. None of it goes anywhere. So what exactly is the point or true motivation/inspiration, I wonder, to shipping him and Sara, and nothing major or plot-defining comes from them beign together or trying to be? When with Lyanna and Rhaegar, their relationship triggered a war and had purpose and definitively shaped the entire country for years to come--to induce another critical event in the story? RobbxJeyne: Robb broke his betrothal and was unfairly murdered in a forever historical event that brought the War of the Fiver kings to a close and opened a new "wound" in the society similar bec the punishment did not fit the crime, even went too far. He may not have been in love with Jeyne like some imagine Rhaegar-Lyanna and Daemyra to be, but there is a nobility in his decision, too...I don't see the same for the SaraxJace ship.
Second, unlike Robb, Jace in this scenario is never described as "doing right" by Sara by marrying her after impregnating her. Both bec she is a known bastard who could never really marry him (remember Ellaria and Oberyn, Aemond and Alys) in this hypothetical where she is real and she we hear nothing about her being pregnant in the first place. In every single scenario that I have seen Sara SnowxJace shipping, these two fall in love and oftentimes just elope just because they are in love and Jace is motivated to stop shouldering the pressures of his own birth and obligations. that might be attractive to people, but there are other things that contextualize my dislike and suspicion of it actually being about "love for love's sake" or "love is the relief of duty".
Third, unlike Rhaegar and Elia (which GRRM describes as a marriage of "tragedy", and I while I do think it was clearly more a tragedy for Elia than Rhaegar [Rhaegar not loving her when it was possible that she would have tried to love him, her illness on top of pushing herself to birth his heirs, Rhaegar having given Lyanna the crown publicly, then her horrific death and the murder of her kids]), Jace and Baela showed no unreciprocated reluctance or hesitation or lack of chemistry/compatibility nor was there testimony of such. For Rhaegar-Lyanna, the narrative tells us that it was never something that was going to be emotionally fufilling for either person through Barristan Selmy and Rhaegar's own actions and much symbolism written into several parts of AWoIaF, the main series etc. about blue roses and such--no such thing exists for Rhaegar and Elia. He may not have "hated" her, but their's was not a marriage of "love" of a certain kind. And for JacexBAela, while we don't see any hint of passion or love from him towards Baela in the same degree that would be a match as much as something can be for a book like F&B's section of the Dance, again, we still do not see any hint of his reluctance/non-attraction towards her that some SaraxJace shippers may try to argue. This matters, too, bc the passion that some argue makes Rhaegar risk it all for Lyanna & then ruin the realm is at least admirable in the sense of agency for Lyanna.
Fourthly, what dynamic? We literally know nothing about Sara Snow. Just that she is a bastard of the Starks, Cregan's sister, and possibly a figment of Mushroom's desire for attention and drama. And because we know nothing about her for certain (and for real this time, unlike stuff we know about Alicent, Rhaenyra, Daemon, etc. even though this is a history book), there's no reliable material to give reality to Sara Snow even if I wanted to pretend she was real. I have to do independent work to create a personality for me to even be able to ship her with anyone, much less a young boy who's narrative purpose leaned on opposing the Westerosi understanding of bastardry like his brothers and Addam/Alyn Velaryon all did. Jace can't do that by just deciding to break his betrothal or dishonor his betrothal to Baela (and we don't even see or have any suggestion of his supposed discomfort to being married to her in the first place, this is another thing people made up and projected into canon!) because he fell for her. Again, Robb married Jeyne not just because he liked her, but because she got pregnant.
This is a dynamic(?) that, like a lot of ships, tends to take one aspect the shippers like a lot, they see some aspects of that narrative-of-a-ship they like or created in a canon circumstance (Rhaegar-elia-Lyanna) or what they think happened, and then they mash it together to give more credit to the new ship they have. I find it disengnuous. Especially when my biggest issue I have with this ship is it has gotten so much more support or relevance only after HotD came on and Baela "became" Black. I've tried searching for this ship prior to the show, and only a miniscule amount of desire for it existed then in comparison to all other ships, canon or not. And it parallels people saying Baela should be Lady of Driftmark while Helaena is queen, esp in lieu of the show making Rhaenyra offer this marriage arrnagement...bookwise, Baela and Jace were betrothed since both were tiny kids bc Rhaenyra and Laena had been best friends AND it made sure to bind Corlys/the Velaryons more to Rhaenyra's side/make sure Luke could have a better chance of being the future Lord of Driftmark--as he was betrothed to Rhaena since very young as well. The betrothals were a matched set, one came with the other.
Canon!Baela was happiest betrothed to Jace, growing up with Jace, growing up a Targaryen under Daemyra's "roof" even as she was obviously loved by her Velaryon grandfather and likely visited him often. Because she seemed to have developed a relationship with Jace, they would have made a good ruling couple and Baela would have been the most prestigious, highest ranking woman in the realm, with as much influence as maybe Alysanne since I don't see any suggestion of her being shunted to the side once he rules. Involved and shaping decisions that involve the ENTIRE realm, not just a small area like Driftmark. There's even a healthier degree of remove because she is still connected to the Velaryons, has her father and sister and her other stepbrothers anc vice versa. Both individuals preoccupied with other things in away that Jaehaerys and Laysanne were not while they had to hide away from Maegor and were confined relatively to each other alone. So it's possible the pitfalls of intramarriages is mitigated a little bit here despite them clearly growing both together and separate enough to be themselves, Baela having some practical agency, and not so dependent on each other. So, again, why is it that people are so eager to make Jace disatisfied with her or them not devoted to each other or Baela being "better off" being a mere Lady when the white!Helaena gets to be queen...I'd even say Helaena needs to be away from her family and marry out more than Baela does, as the latter in canon had more protections with her relatives than show!Helaena did.
This JacexSara ship is only as popular as it is bc it entirely depends on a rejection of Baela AND Laena AND Rhaenyra's canon female bonds and possible politicking apart from Alicent. Or against Alicent or just for Rhaenyra herself. Laena's relationship with Rhaenyra is erased for Rhaenicent, which gives way to that Helaena-Jace idea that only gets thrown back in Rhaenyra's face. Contrast that with her successful and satisfying arrangement (satisfying to the kids themsleves) between her sons and Laena's daughters--now instead we have this weird back and forth that makes no sense.
I'm usually not one to hurl on ships; in this case, my disdain comes from fans taking and misunderstanding "death of the author" and then hypocritically transposing their own ideas onto the canon by sheer force of will. It comes from the show amplifying people's biases and misunderstandings of the text. It encourages willful reading before comprehensive reading, which is dangerous; one example of why is people say Aegon would have been happiest or most powerful and safe still married to Jaehaera, or that this entire story should have ended with them together bc "both sides bad, marriage makes good, it ends the war"...the disabled child forced to be impregnated...sure. And it that why Jaehaera gets killed by another guy who wants to put his own daughter on the thoen so he could have descendants as Otto did...while having been on the green side? That guy that perpetuates the violent disposal of girls/women like Rhaenyra? Sure, it's just about "both sides bad" because Rhaenyra was not a "good" queen. Gotcha.
Contrast this situation to people shipping Jayce and Viktor of the League of Legends show; in that case, no people are well within their rights to ship them and even to believe that it was textual that they had romantic feelings or a soul connection that outstrips mere friendship.
there is strong SUGGESTION in the mannerims and dialouge that could easily lend to romance or high-feeling many times throughout the series, where the two share an understanding or faith and devotion in the other while they try--in their own disjointed ways--to make their society a better place through Hextech, their shared "creation", which brought them close.
that suggestiveness was deliberately played into by the voice actors and animators and writers themselves even though a few writers didn't see it that way
(This is not me saying Jayce didn't care nor didn't love Mel, this is me saying that Jayce and Viktor discover the real meaning and value of life through each other when they forgot that they should have questioned the ethics of their development of Hextech and its effects on humanity's greed and fight to survive just in the classism of their society. The reason why this inspires people sometimes more than Jayce's love for Mel or their perception of Mel at all is because this entire story's center ond direction is coming from the characters' desire to "fix" humanity and that going wrong because of things utterly out of their control they never should have or just couldn't get a handle on...and lots of grief. Mel was a big part of all that, but she has her own story and Piltover seems more like a "stop" in her story more than anything.)
I said once shipping is or can't be detatched from how people view politics AND can often be a political act -- I don't like what I'm seeing in this particular ship's politics. Or the fans' quiet motive behind it.
I actually like Robb and Jeyne (not Talisa, bc the show tweaked that in a way that was...weird), much better than Jace x Sara Snow. Robb marries Jeyne both because he genuinely likes her and wishes to preserve her "honor", thinking it is honorable for him to go out of his way and risk his own political advantage so that he will not produce a suffering bastard or have Jeyne's life ruined for having extramarital sex. In this world, men get to have all these affairs and produce children who would have it much tougher and even be in danger from their other kids or wives or others who wish to destroy possible competition or just out of pain/jealousy/pride.
Meanwhile, the women--whether raped or having had conseneual sex with him--almost always have their lives ruined. Society thinks them as "spoiled goods" and they cannot have more stable economic means through the prime way women can such--potential husbands, who again would not want "spoiled goods"...or their relatives arranging any marriage for them. And if they have illegitmate kids, they're left with little means of future security or protection for them or themselves. sure some might have families who keep them till they are older, but again, their lives as "proper" people who can go out with their head held high or unaccosted by other degradations is done. Here Robb takes responsibility by marrying his lover and making sure his child comes out legitmate--he's extending his socially granted protection when he has all the space and ability not to do so and still be seen as "trustworthy" by his peers and other potential allies or whatever. Because "men have needs".
A lot of people say he was stupid for doing that, but the point was not to berate the person doing the right, moral thing; it was to point out how mush it costs to to the right thing, how that potnetial cost is innately unfair and life-destroying. How it even destroys the better men who in any way divert from what the system tries to compel its beneficiaries to do. It's about exploring the human cost of power and the ethics inherently connected to it all. You were not supposed to treat this story as a stats-session, who's "smarter", or "better" at politics for the sake of seeing who is the "best" at the cost of forgoing human worth.
Walder Frey is rather the "stupid" party, morally AND politically, so in any way you slice it, WALDER is actually the "stupid" one. why? He broke one of the biggest social rules of Westeros, espe for the northmen: the guest rights, where the host must give complete shelter to anyone he/she provides food and shelter to. Walder basically shut himself in to only ever be allied "faithfully" with the Lannisters and the Boltons, because we know that if he does later, he's basically opened himself up to others doing similar or worse to him, or run the risk of them betraying him quickly once they get the chance. He killed a young man and a pregnant woman and his mother (a scion of another great hous, the Tullys, his own great lord paramount). Nothing he did in retaliation to Robb breaking the betrothal was "normal" nor justifiable, it was an extreme, amoral, very prideful action that he did partly bec he thought copying Tywin was his go to for power by both showing that he'd "go the mile" for this man we wanted an alliance with and become another "big dog".
It is reflective of exactly how this feudalist patriarchy compels people to seek for self gratifying power above all else and imitate the "mightiest" above all else, to "fall in line" with/behind the biggest fish/man and reap the benefits for yourself. Tywin, who got his way by also having a mother killed with her kids), who how we all know ended up. Killed by his own abused child.
Walder Frey is also a "predator" of young girls barely out of their preteens, almost always marrying them very obviously for sex since he has no need at all for more heirs. Contrast that with Robb, who merely broke a betrothal AND did right by the girl he chose to have sex with nearer to his own age and who he very clearly respected. Robb deserves no flack at all for what he did, Walder does.
In order to criticize Robb, many people thought it was in good taste to let Walder Frey off the hook entirely, bc they've accepted the status quo and even have decided that such should be the case. they've grown morally complacent or were never truly ethical to begin with.
This narrow-minded, jaded fandom prizes instant power gratification and "playing smart" to miss the bigger picture and what's actually being written and "advocated" for, what this entire series is really about just as they refuse to understand Daenerys:
[dragonseeds] The Existentialism of ASoIaF Leadership and Heroism in a Violent, Exploitative World
[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly] What is "Heroic" and MOST Meaningful is to be willing to fight for What's Right despite Mistakes, Controversy, or Disadvantage
[rainahadaenerys] Quote from Frederick Douglass on GRRM's Blog
[jozor-johai] LoTR and ASoIaF, the Orcs and the Meereenes Slaver Kid Hostages
[cerseiandjaime] Human Heart in Conflict with Itself
Dragon Fire as Deterrents
Jon & Gilly, Male Violence vs Female Violence
