#tw 5x09

[forbescaroline]

TOP 5/10 CHARACTERS PER SHOW (as voted by my followers) ↳ teen wolf edition #5. Stiles Stilinski portrayed by Dylan O'Brien

[princeescaluswords]

Hmmmm..... genuinely wondering how much of the "SCOTT BELIEVED THEO OVER STILES!1" belief of fandom stems from not only racism such as the assertion that white characters just "know better" but also another facet of white supremacy, specifically anti intellectualism.

"Theo was evil! We saw it!!!" Yes, *we* the VIEWERS saw it but not the characters. Because we are often privy to things which they are not. Also, Stiles never produced any solid PROOF that Theo was untrustworthy.

"That's not Theo." Except... it is. It is Theo.

"Because you trust everyone!" Except no Scott doesn't.

Being friends doesn't mean having to believe or follow whatever they tell you, it also doesn't mean that you let your friends make decisions for you. It doesn't mean relinquishing control to them. Which is what they mean when they tag things as "Good Friend Scott McCall" 99% of the time.

I have spoken many times before about my frustration with the scene in Lies of Omission (5x09) in terms of its reception by the fandom. I have also been critical of the production's writing, because in summary, I feel that if the most important conflict of the season could have been derailed by one character saying one word ("scaffolding"), the entire situation could be seen as contrived.

But, to be fair, the conflict between Scott and Stiles does serve as an excellent character study for both characters. I may have a fundamental dislike for how the fight was resolved in Season 5B (and don't underestimate how much I dislike it), but I recognize that the fight addresses some fractures in their relationship and their individual psyches.

Especially after a friend of mine informed me of a high correlation of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria in people with ADHD, Stiles behavior in Season 5A makes a lot more sense to me, when taking his earlier behaviors into account. We've seen multiple times over the previous 68 episodes that Stiles is insecure and that he attempts to cover up that insecurity with aggression, sarcasm, and lies. The implication is that they stem from his reaction to Claudia's paranoid hallucinations. He deflects and obfuscates because he believes that he's not worth it. Of course, someone suffering from this condition and enduring the amount of stress the entire pack is under will assume the worst possible scenario.

Given the Doctors' and Theo's skills and the failure of Donovan to kill Stiles, it's not at all a reach to use Stiles's conditions and habits against him, leading to this moment. To me, this doesn't make Stiles innocent, just consistently motivated. He's supposed to be the person who "always figures it out" and yet his own insecurity renders him almost completely passive in Season 5A, unless it comes to deceiving and lashing out at the people he loves. That is all he accomplishes, hamstrung by his own vision of himself.

On the other hand, Scott has his own weakness to confront -- his tendency to internalize his conflicts with others. In previous clashes, Scott has always swallowed his feelings, choosing to focus on helping others. For example, Peter Hale mentally and physically violated him repeatedly in Season 1 yet during the 37 episodes between Master Plan (2x12) and Smoke & Mirrors (4x12), he simply ignores every minute of that trauma. The only comment he ever makes to the man who tried to make him murder his friends and forced him to experience being burned alive is "you were never an alpha but you were always a monster." This is characteristic of Scott, so much so that the audience was shocked when he threatened Gerard in Visionary (3x08) even after Gerard had stabbed him in the gut, had threatened his mother, had tried to murder Isaac, and had extorted him with Allison's life. His mild hostility towards his father was enough for the fandom to imagine that Rafael was a bad guy on the level of child molester. There's no clearer expression of this than in his suicide attempt during Motel California (3x06) where he blames himself for everything that's happening, when, logically, none of it was his fault.

But no one can truly be a good leader if they can't confront the people they lead when those people do something wrong. He recognizes that Liam and Kira are having control issues in Season 5, but he doesn't address it honestly. What would have happened if Scott, in Parasomnia (5x02), instead of only taking Stiles's pain after he screamed "Because you trust everybody!" and recklessly smashed his hand in anger, had confronted Stiles about that belief (because Scott does not 'trust everybody') and the way that Stiles had been acting unstable? If you look again at Theo's story to Scott, the chimera's goal isn't just to tell on Stiles, it is to imply that it's Scott's responsibility to confront Stiles, which is a task Scott dislikes to the point of avoidance, "You have to talk to him." Scott reacts to Stiles's opening vicious salvo, the "Some of us are human!" speech, by ignoring the ramifications of that statement and focusing on a particular action -- Donovan's death -- instead of the larger problems of Stiles's behavior.

In other words, as much as I dislike the contrivance, the conflict was valid.

I've laid out in other places how much I dislike Stiles's behavior in this scene, even if it is in-character, but I have also recognized all the elements (the nogitsune, Claudia, the "pedestal problem," etc.) that helped make it happen. I've also talked about how there are similar elements relating to Scott: Kira's depature, Hayden's impending demise, the death toll of the doctors, and the way his responsibilities were forced on him by his loved ones. I've made it clear that Scott, to be the alpha, has to talk to Stiles about Donovan; the problem I see is that he tried to avoid confronting Stiles directly. If he had demanded that Stiles tell him the whole story rather than let Stiles shout at him, the end result would have been different. Scott had a responsibility to act with the authority his duties as alpha and 'protector of Beacon Hills' force upon him, and he didn't do it.

Still doesn't excuse his treatment in 5B, but it is what it is.

What I want to ask Stiles stans, and I would appreciate an answer, is what did they think Stiles's responsibility was in that scene? If Scott is to blame because Stiles tried to warn him about Theo and he didn't listen, how much blame does Stiles carry for not figuring out a way to stop Theo or reveal his machinations? In other words, in the middle of this horror show, why does Stiles get a pass for avoiding his duty and Scott doesn't?

[emily-smx]

Lies of Omission

I know that this scene has been discussed hundreds of times already, and there are probably posts out there that are very similar to this one. However, I saw this being brought up again on Instagram, and I feel the need to say my bit about it.

The question brought up over and over again is “Why did Scott believe Theo over Stiles?”.

He didn’t.

In the entire scene, there’s never once the question of whose story he should believe – as far as the boys are concerned, there is only one story. That’s what causes the miscommunication.

I also noticed something else while watching the scene: nothing that Stiles said actually contradicted Theo’s story.

To go into more depth, I’m going to go through each bit of the dialogue and explain what’s basically being said from each character’s point of view.

[Scott holds out the bloody wrench]

Stiles: Where did you get that?

Scott: This is yours? Why didn't you tell me?

Stiles: I was going to...

Scott: No, but why didn't you tell me when it happened?

Stiles: I couldn't.

So far, it’s pretty straightforward.

Scott shows Stiles the wrench, who immediately reacts in a guilty manner. It’s important to note that Scott’s “This is yours?” holds quite a bit of surprise in it, so he clearly hadn’t already made up his mind about what happened.

Stiles takes the wrench and looks at it, while Scott asks him “Why didn’t you tell me?”

I know that, to some people, his question implies that he’s already leapt to a conclusion about what happened, but this isn’t necessarily the case. He hasn’t specified what it is he believes Stiles has done; all this shows is that he knows something big has happened.

Stiles’ response sounds incredibly guilty, and he struggles to look Scott in the eye. It’s clear at this point that he’s done something bad.

Scott: You killed him? You killed Donovan?

Stiles: Well, he was going to kill my dad. Huh? Was I supposed to just let him?

Scott: You weren't supposed to do this. None of us are.

This is where it starts to get more confusing.

Scott asks whether Stiles killed Donovan, and again the surprise and disbelief in his voice shows that he hadn’t already made up his mind prior to this conversation.

Stiles responds by telling him “he was going to kill my dad [...] was I supposed to just let him?” (i.e. “I killed Donovan because he was going to kill my dad”).

The worst thing about this is that it essentially confirms what Theo was saying. Theo said “maybe it was because he threatened to kill his dad”.

It also implies to Scott that this was not self-defense, because Stiles’ dad wasn’t there. Instead, it tells Scott that Stiles chose to kill Donovan because he couldn’t risk Donovan hurting his father.

Also, Stiles is asking Scott “Was I supposed to just let him [kill my father]?” (i.e. “was I supposed to let him go free and risk him killing my father?”)

If Stiles had explained how much he regretted it, Scott (despite still not knowing the whole story) would likely have reacted differently. Instead, it sounds to Scott as though Stiles has done something terrible and is now defending it.

Hence, he replies by essentially saying that no, his response was not justified. “You weren't supposed to do this.”

Stiles: You think I had a choice?

Scott: There's always a choice.

This is where it’s important to look at the different viewpoints. Scott is still under the impression that Stiles killed Donovan to protect his father. So, from his point of view, Stiles did have a choice.

Stiles: Yeah, well, I can't do what you can, Scott. I know you wouldn't have done it. You probably would have just figured something out, right?

Scott: I'd try.

Stiles: Yeah, because you're Scott McCall! You're the True Alpha! Guess what? All of us can't be True Alphas! Some of us have to make mistakes. Some of us have to get our hands a little bloody sometimes. Some of us are human!

Once again, it’s clear that they’re talking about completely different things.

Stiles is talking about what he can do physically. He’s saying that he couldn’t easily fight off Donovan the way that Scott could have. He’s saying that Scott could have found a solution that didn’t end in one of them dying.

But Scott still doesn’t know that. He still thinks that Stiles killed Donovan by using disproportionate force, because he was scared that if Donovan survived then he’d harm his father. From his point of view, Stiles is saying that murder was the only option, and he couldn’t figure something else out.

So he responds by essentially saying that yes, he would try and figure out another solution to protect his father and also not kill Donovan.

It’s an entirely reasonable response, but obviously from Stiles’ point of view, Scott is being very unfair here. This, along with the fact that he’s being crushed under guilt and stress and anger, causes him to lash out.

Scott: So you had to kill him?

Stiles: Scott, he was going to kill my dad!

Scott: But the way that it happened... There's a point when it's... It's not self-defense anymore!

Stiles: What are you even talking about? I didn't have a choice, Scott!

Scott, to his credit, doesn’t get angry, and instead gets back to the main point. He’s clearly very desperate at this point, desperate for there to be something he’s missed.

So he asks whether Stiles had to kill him – note that this isn’t simply if Stiles killed Donovan, it’s more about whether it was the only choice. Keep in mind, that Scott cares a lot about Stiles. He doesn’t want to fall out with him.

Unfortunately, Stiles’ response only emphasised what he’d previously claimed, making it sound like that was his only reason.

This is where both characters should have paid more attention to each other’s words. Scott’s comment about “the way that it happened” should have driven Stiles to questioning what he thought had happened; and Stiles’ confusion should have again made Scott question whether he had the story right.

However, they’re both upset and stressed, and so it’s understandable that at this point they aren’t thinking clearly and rationally.

Stiles: You don't even believe me, do you?

Scott: I want to.

Stiles: Okay. All right, so... So, believe me, then. Scott, say you believe me. Say it. Say you believe me.

[Stiles steps forward brandishing the wrench and Scott flinches]

Scott: Stiles, we can't kill people that we're trying to save.

Stiles: Say you believe me!

Scott: We can't kill people. Do you believe that?

This is where everybody hates Scott, but again it’s taking everything out of context.

When Stiles says “believe me”, he means “believe me that there was no choice, I was about die and it was an accident”, but Scott hears “believe me that my only choice was to kill Donovan to protect my dad”.

Scott wants to believe that Stiles’ actions were necessary, but he knows that killing somebody to prevent the possibility of something else from happening in the future is not justified (especially when there are other ways they could have protected his dad).

Also, Theo was cunning and he told Scott “maybe Stiles thought he had to keep going to defend himself” – which feeds into Scott’s belief that Stiles might have thought it was his only choice, despite this not being the case.

I also want to point out that Scott flinching is likely due to the trauma of Void Stiles. In Letharia Vulpina (3x19), by the animal clinic in the pouring rain, Void Stiles tortured Scott. The similarities of the situation likely caused him to flinch (and then there’s obviously the fact that flinching when somebody steps forward with a weapon is a completely natural response, even without all the trauma).

Stiles: Well, what do I do about this? What do you want me to do? Okay, just be... Scott, just tell me how to fix this, all right? Please, just tell me-- what do you want me to do?

Scott: Don't worry about Malia or Lydia. We'll find them. Maybe... Maybe you should talk to your dad.

This is when Stiles essentially gives up. From his point of view, he’s tried defending himself, but Scott is still condemning him; he’s being blamed for something that was in no way his fault.

Instead of lashing out again, he accepts that he was at fault (although he wasn’t – it was his guilt that was persuading him that he was in the wrong), and begs Scott to tell him how he can fix his mistake.

Scott, who is also very overwhelmed, suggests he talk to his dad, who will be able to fix it and sort everything out.

I know some people equate this to Scott kicking Stiles out of the pack, but I really don’t think it is.

Scott saying “Don't worry about Malia or Lydia” is not him forbidding Stiles from speaking to them. It’s simply a callback to the beginning of the conversation, when Stiles informed Scott that he’d been unable to get in touch with Malia or Lydia.

And yes, he dismisses Stiles, but that’s because so many other things are going on. Hayden is directly behind them, dying in the animal clinic. Scott needs to go and help her, and Stiles being there will probably just increase the tension and make things more difficult.

In Conclusion:

It was a miscommunication. Scott and Stiles both thought they were talking about the same thing, which led to them not understanding what the other was trying to say.

Scott did not come into the argument already believing Stiles was guilty. His reaction to Theo’s story was, literally, “that’s not possible”. It was Stiles’ accidental confirmation of Theo’s story that led Scott to believe it was true.

“believe me” does not mean “believe my story”, because to their knowledge there was only one story.

Scott did not kick Stiles out of the pack.

I firmly believe that the only mistake either character made (beyond hiding the whole secret in the first place) is not pushing further to make sure they were both talking about the same thing. Scott should have asked for Stiles’ full story of the events, and Stiles should have explained what happened when he had the chance. It can, however, be put down to their mindsets at the time: Theo chose a good time to tell Scott, when both of them were already overwhelmed with all the events going on.

[stydiamccall]

This is so underrated... 5x11 when Liam and Mason are in the school library trying to find the Nemetons location. Liam says "Stiles said he and Lydia were looking at the intersections". And it just makes me smile thinking that Stiles and Lydia spent time together during a spare period or after school doing the exact same thing Liam and Mason were doing. Sitting at down at the table searching endless maps, atlases for direction and then they actually go out to try and find this magical tree stump themselves (5x09)

[forbescaroline]

TOP 5/10 CHARACTERS PER SHOW (as voted by my followers) ↳ teen wolf edition #1. Lydia Martin portrayed by Holland Roden

[forbescaroline]

dynamics i've been wanting to gif: liam & hayden - teen wolf Nothing feels right. Except you.

[princeescaluswords]

You keep saying Stiles lied to Scott for weeks, but the time btwn Stiles and Don and the vet fight were 12 days max. And in that time they only saw each other once when they had the "we don't kill" argument. Just wanted to clear that up.

I am very curious about how you came to the twelve days maximum.  Intuitively, I don’t see how that could be true, but I can’t disprove it outright.  Would you mind terribly showing how you came to this conclusion?

And I can see why you would have a problem, if you believe that the length of time between the night depicted in Condition Terminal and the fight in the rain in Lies of Omission is only twelve days, with my statement “he lied to him for weeks.”  I could split hairs and say 1.714 weeks is still ‘weeks’ but I get what you really mean.  The length of time of Stiles’ deceptions being so short is actually a huge mitigating factor in the whole situation.

As an aside, and it’s a necessary aside because fanon keeps getting it wrong, Scott never just said that “we don’t kill,” he said “we don’t kill the people we’re trying to save,” as in, we don’t kill victims.  He had empathy and compassion even for Donovan, who, since he was a chimera, had been mutilated and twisted by the Doctors.  Tracy and Lucas had experienced huge shifts in personality against their will, something with which Scott and Stiles had first-hand experience. Scott’s objection to what he believed was Donovan’s murder wasn’t a blanket prescription against killing, but it was a judgment against killing people who couldn’t help their violent actions.

If you’re argument is correct, and it’s twelve days maximum, I feel much more sympathetic for Stiles.  However, that’s dwarfed by the amount of increased sympathy I have for Scott.  Stiles may not have have time to process Donovan’s death and get up the courage to tell anyone, but Scott had a hell of a week.

Because your time frame means that all these things happened to Scott in a week (at the beginning of Lies of Omission, Scott goes “it’s been five days” since anything happened.) 

Took a tremendous amount of pain from Corey.

Failed to save Lucas, so much that he had to get a pep talk from his mother.

Discovered that something was wrong with Kira when she unconsciously tried to kill Lucas.

Was burnt to a crisp getting Kira out of Eichen House.

Lucas died and Josh died on his watch.

Suffered a repressed memory of his dog’s death.  Had a terrifying hallucination of Kira hurting him in the same manner that the nogitsune had hurt him.

Suffered at least three asthma attacks.

Got Hayden and Liam kidnapped. 

Violated Corey’s mind. 

Watched Kira’s fox grow at least six inches, had to deal with another dead chimera with Kira’s sword stuck their chest and left on the McCall kitchen table, and then had to watch Kira leave, all after telling her he loved her for the first time.  

According to your timeline, all this happened within a week.  No wonder Scott wasn’t operating at 100%  in the rain with Stiles, while Hayden was dying 100 feet behind him.  Concentrating all of that trauma into a one-week period, it’s amazing the boy didn’t snap and run into the woods!

And Theo?  What a performance!  In a week, he had saved Lydia’s life, he had saved Malia’s life, he had saved – for all intents and purposes – Liam’s and Hayden’s life, rescuing them from the Doctors.  He helped to watch over them reading the books, he endured electrocution – is it any wonder that the entire pack welcomed him with hugs?  Except for Stiles, who just sat with him in a jeep for five hours and confessed all his insecurities and nightmares to Theo.

You know who doesn’t look good?  Liam.  Liam, who went from rolling his eyes when he saw Hayden at Sinema in Condition Terminal to trying to murder Scott for her love in twelve days.   Even Season 1 Scott took a whole month before he was willing to kill for Allison, it being his second full moon.

Twelve days is not much time at all.  I’m sure Theo took advantage of Scott’s overwhelmed mental state, as well as his fears of the Nogitsune (echoed in both Kira’s spiral, his hallucination in Strange Frequencies, and the fight with him and Stiles being in the rain outside the animal clinic), the fact that Scott was failing to protect the chimera victims, and the idea that Stiles likes to go for the head with blunt objects (as he did in The Overlooked), and the direct focused threat to Stiles’ dad (It’s not like Stiles doesn’t become emotional when the threat to his only remaining parent.)

I look forward to seeing your work.

[princeescaluswords]

A little while ago you put up the cartoon with Bart Simpson and Chris Griffin. To me, how they describe their fights is pretty much how I see the confrontation in 5.09, with something of added twist: Stiles on some level is trying to get Scott to reject him, both b/c he thinks it will be easier if he rips of the band aid & b/c he thinks, if Scott does that shows that, at some point, Scott saw him as someone worth holding to that standard. This doesn't happen or course. Scott shuts down midway.

That is an interesting point of view, but it is not completely new to me.  I’ve always known that part of Stiles’ actions in “Lies of Omission” was a form of self-flagellation, but I think I can accept your proposal that it wasn’t pointless.  There was a goal here: either make Scott validate his exsitence or to end the friendship.  

And yet, members of the fandom still defend Stiles for doing this at this point in this place.   They still consider this all Scott’s fault.  Stiles cannot be both intelligent and unintelligent; he can’t be both perceptive and oblivious.   He knew whats going on,which makes this blatant, selfish, emotional manipulation.  

Stiles knew that Scott has just lost another girlfriend – Kira had left to find a cure for what was happening to her not only because Scott couldn’t protect her but also because he couldn’t help her.  Stiles knew that Hayden, another person that Scott promised to protect, was dying not even a hundred feet from where they’re standing.  Stiles knew that Scott had no idea how to stop the Dread Doctors even then; he had no idea what their goals were, only that they were going to kill at least ten people.   But Scott’s stress was and has always been immaterial to Stiles when Stiles has a crisis, people dying or people not dying. 

The key point, to me, was that this wasn’t new behavior to Stiles.   When it comes down to satisifying his own emotional needs, other people exist to serve his purpose.  He did it to Scott before in Season 1 in “Heart Monitor” and “Lunatic.”  He did it to Lydia in “Master Plan.”  He did it to his father in “The Girl Who Knew Too Much.”   He did it to Derek in “The Overlooked.”   He did it to his father again in “Parasomnia.”  

I’ve never criticized the episode’s writing for this.   This is an established trait for Stiles, and it is an understandable trait.  It’s just not laudable.   It’s also part of why I claim that Stiles hasn’t changed much (I can no longer claim at all) in five seasons.     It’s completely in character for him never to stop with this selfish manipulation, because there was no  motive for him to stop.   No one ever called him out on it; the closest who came to it was Lydia, who stormed out of his room.   If your bad behavior never has any consequences, why stop it?