The Northern And Southern Dynasties

She / her. Currently working on the Northern Wei Series because I love Northern Wei.

[craftercat]

The Northern Wei Series: Links

Articles focused on Tuoba Gui's reign (386-409)

Northern Wei Part 1: Foundation

Northern Wei Part 2: A History of the Helan Tribe

Northern Wei Part 3: Tuoba Gui's Wars with Later Yan, Part 1

Northern Wei Part 4: Tuoba Gui's Wars with Later Yan

Northern Wei Part 5: Tuoba Gui's Administration and Economy, 386-404, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 6: The 398-406 Reforms, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 7: Dissolution of the Tribes and New Capitals, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 8: Relations With Later Qin, 386-415, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 9: Tuoba Gui's Later Years, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 10: Tuoba Gui's Succession, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 11: Tuoba Gui's Death, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Articles focused on Tuoba Si's reign (409-423):

Northern Wei Part 12: Tuoba Si's Rise to Power, on Tumblr and Wordpress

Northern Wei Part 14: Rebellion, Famine and Cui Hao, on Tumblr

Northern Wei Part 15: War with Eastern Jin, 416-7, on Tumblr

(Note: the Northern Wei Series is incomplete and I will be adding links as I add more articles)

[craftercat]

Sometimes I feel like Tuoba Shao is kind of overlooked when it comes to the travesties of royal inbreeding.

[craftercat]

Happy 1640th anniversary to Northern Wei, which was founded on this day in 386.

[memories-of-ancients]

Gold inlaid bronze dagger uncovered in Hebei Province, China, from the tomb of Prince Liu Sheng, 113 BC

[craftercat]

Northern Wei 🤝 Eastern Jin: emperors with ridiculously short lifespans

[craftercat]

I feel like telling whoever wrote this nonsense on China and religion about Kou Qianzhi's influence over Northern Wei and Tuoba Tao's persecution of Buddhists:

[craftercat]

Cui Hao, c. 419, to Tuoba Si: 太宗恒有微疾，怪異屢見，乃使中貴人密問於浩曰：「春秋：星孛北斗，七國之君皆將有咎。今茲日蝕於胃昂，盡光趙代之分野，朕疾彌年，療治無損，恐一旦奄忽，諸子並少，將如之何？其為我設圖後之計。」浩曰：「陛下春秋富盛，聖業方融，德以除災，幸就平愈。且天道懸遠，或消或應。昔宋景見災修德，熒惑退舍。願陛下遣諸憂虞，恬神保和，納御嘉福，無以闇昧之說，致損聖思。

Taizong (Tuoba Si) constantly had minor illness, and strange omens were frequently seen. He thus sent his attendants to secretly ask to Cui Hao:

"In the Spring and Autumn Period, a comet was in the Big Dipper, and the rulers of the seven states were to all receive punishment. Now there is an eclipse in the Wei and Ang regions, fully illuminating the border of the Zhao and Dai regions. I have been ill for many years, and treatment has not decreased this. I fear one day I may die, and my sons are all young, what shall I do? I ask to make a plan for the future for me."

Cui Hao said:

"Your Majesty is in the prime of life, with the sagely enterprise flourishing. Virtue can eliminate disaster, and favour can heal illness. Besides, Heaven's way is unpredictable, sometimes lessening and sometimes responding. In the past, Song Jing saw calamitous omens and cultivated virtue, and the signs retreated. I wish for Your Majesty to dispel all of your worries, retain your spirit and protect your peace, accept imperial blessings, and not allow such dark and dismal words harm your sagely thoughts."

(He does give succession planning, though he can't exactly refuse the emperor's request)

I see not a lot has changed in the last 1600 years.

[craftercat]

Tuoba Gui founded Northern Wei at 14-15 while there's an alarming number of kids that age today who can barely read or write simple sentences.

[craftercat]

I heard there was a theory where Empress Dowager Ling/Hu became a prostitute after the Northern Wei died, where did that theory came from?

You must be confusing her with Empress Hu of Northern Qi, the wife of Gao Zhan. Empress Dowager Hu of Northern Wei was killed by Erzhu Rong after he seized control. Empress Hu of Northern Qi was rumoured to have become a prostitute after Northern Qi fell in 577, with the Beishi saying she "indulged herself in promiscuity".

[craftercat]

How 16K/Northern Wei figures would fare on the BBC show The Traitors:

Tuoba Gui - Pre-402, smashes it. Post-402, is way too paranoid about everyone and gets banished for making too many vague accusations.

Cui Hao - season 2 Jaz vibes. Incredible for the majority of the show at spotting Traitors. Easily able to sniff through lies. Gets banished due to 11th hour betrayal because he has no allies.

Murong Chui - Very good for about half the show. Gets murdered/banished due to trusting the wrong people.

Murong Bao - One of the first out because of his incompetence, and also trusting Murong Lin.

Murong Lin - Does better as a Traitor, where he would betray everyone but still somehow be listened to. Gets banished eventually for being too suspicious if he's a Faithful.

Tuoba Tao - Aggressive and reckless in banishing Traitors. Gets banished for getting too many Faithfuls banished, if the Traitors don't have him murdered first.

Gao Yun - Voice of reason. Honest Faithful who people can't really fault. Probably wins if he's a Faithful.

Yuan Ke - season 2 Mollie vibes. Not suspicious if he's a Faithful, but too trusting in actual Traitors.

Yuan Hong (Xiaowen) - Like Yuan Ke, but a much better judge of character. Has a better chance of making it to the end.

Empress Dowager Feng - Leads round table discussions. Good at judging characters and planning ahead. Frontrunner regardless if she's a Traitor or Faithful.

Empress Dowager Hu - Tries to do what Empress Dowager Feng did. Fails. Gets banished or murdered, whichever comes first.

Tuoba Hong (Xianwen) - season 2 Kyra vibes. Strong leader at the roundtable. Gets murdered early for his commanding qualities, especially if Empress Dowager Feng is a Traitor.

Helian Bobo - Like Tuoba Tao if he's a Faithful, gets voted off/murdered early for being too aggressive. Potentially better as a Traitor, but wouldn't be good at making friends so would eventually draw suspicion to himself.

Tuoba Huang - Good at spotting Traitors, but fights too much with other Faithful and too close with certain friends to escape suspicion. Eventually gets murdered for being too good at spotting Traitors or banished for his antics, whichever comes first.

Tuoba Si - Sharp and has good judgement, and good at avoiding suspicion being cast on him by not overstepping. But he's so superstitious he can be rather easily misled, so he gets played by the Traitors and gets voted off for getting a Faithful banished.

Fu Jian - Terrible. If he's a Faithful, he thinks that anyone who befriends him is also a Faithful even if they're clearly untrustworthy. If he's a Traitor, gives himself away because he struggles to betray his allies and because he's way too confident in his own abilities and popularity (think a mix between season 2 Paul and Mollie). Gets voted out after sticking by too many Traitors at the roundtable.

Yao Chang - Depends. Befriends Fu Jian, then pulls off an 11th hour betrayal of him if he's a Traitor. If he's a Faithful, probably less lucky since Fu Jian is probably the only person who doesn't see he's untrustworthy, but he's also useful so they might keep him around.

[craftercat]

What factors led to Former Qin being able to briefly reunite Northern China?

Probably simply the fact that their governance was better than everyone else's. At this time, none of the northern regimes were stable or were much more than territories controlled by rebellious warlords. The north really only started to move on from that with the centralisation efforts of Tuoba Gui and later the usurpation of Liu Yu in 420 weakening the legitimacy of the south against the north allowing Tuoba Si to side with the fallen Sima clan and thereby strengthen his case for legitimacy in the north.

Wang Meng was a capable strategist who helped Fu Jian a lot with his brief reunification. Meanwhile, the main rival that Fu Jian faced when it came to the reunification was Former Yan, which at the time was led by the corrupt and ineffective regents Empress Kezuhun and Murong Ping. Even before then, Former Yan had internal problems with people fleeing under the shelter of aristocrats to avoid constant war and the heavy tax and service burdens imposed on them by the Former Yan rulers. Murong Huang was a competent ruler in Liaodong, however he had imposed heavy tax and corvee on his people and fired a man for suggesting he lower them, though later on he did reduce some of the burden to Wei-Jin levels. Murong Jun had been more focused on military expansion and ritual legitimacy than proper governance, and Former Yan had suffered for it as he imposed greater service on the people.

By the time of Murong Wei, Former Yan's internal problems were mounting, and despite Yue Wan's attempt to bring people back into state control, this continued and Yue Wan himself appeared to have been assassinated by aristocrats who benefitted from the policy. Which included Murong Ping, which again shows how fragile the internal institutions of the Former Yan was that the very top ranks were against good policies because they benefitted from the problems they tried to solve.

When it came to Former Liang and Dai, by the time that Fu Jian turned his attention towards them, Former Qin was already stronger than they were and they fell. However, Fu Jian suffered from the same problem as Former Yan in the end. While he had pushed to adopt more Han-like values and administration in his state, none of this was actually institutionally durable, and despite his Sinicisation attempts he still had the legitimacy of a warlord. He had tried to integrate the conquered nations, but the reality was that the way he had done so was not very good, for example relocating the Xianbei to Guanzhong while dispersing the Di throughout the state only weakened his state instead of strengthening it.

Once again, we can compare to Northern Wei. Tuoba Gui did adopt some Han administrative systems such as continuing the county system, but he did not focus his reforms on this but instead on centralising Xianbei authority. He disbanded the tribes and settled the Xianbei in Pingcheng, where they served as a military aristocracy subordinate to the emperor, while establishing Pingcheng as an agricultural base and setting up military garrisons to expand his control into border regions. These measures created durable institutions and lasting control, while Fu Jian's measures didn't.

This meant that in the end, Fu Jian launched his Fei River campaign, attempting to reunify the whole of China. However, this failed, and because Former Qin was institutionally weak, it collapsed as Fu Jian's former allies rebelled against him. Northern Wei succeeded in keeping the north unified despite Tuoba Tao's southern failure because its institutions were much more sound.

[craftercat]

I understand Mulan likely didn’t exist, but I was curious as to whether any women involved in warfare during the Northern and Southern dynasties made it into the records?

Empress Luo of Cheng-Han, the wife of Li Te and mother of Li Xiong, was recorded as having fought in defence of Li Te's brother Li Liu after Li Te's death. She sustained a wound in her eye, however she continued fighting, and the defence was successful.

As well, Fu Deng's wife Empress Mao was noted to have fought in battle. She fought in 389 defending her husband against Yao Chang, who was attacking the remnants of the Former Qin dynasty. The camp fell, but Empress Mao continued fighting him, though she was unable to resist him and was captured. Yao Chang wanted to take her as his concubine, but she refused and he killed her in anger.

I know these are technically from the Sixteen Kingdoms but they should be close enough to the Northern and Southern dynasties.

[craftercat]

Just an average day in Northern Wei:

度世後以崔浩事，棄官逃於高陽鄭羆家，羆匿之。使者囚羆長子，將加捶楚。羆戒之曰：「君子殺身以成人，汝雖死勿言。」子奉父命，遂被考掠，至乃火爇其體，因以物故，卒無所言。度世後令弟娶羆妹，以報其恩。世袓臨江，劉義隆使其殿中將軍黃延年朝貢。世袓問延年曰：「范陽盧度世坐與崔浩親通，逃命江表，應已至彼？」延對曰：「都下無聞，當必不至。」世袓詔東宮赦度世宗族逃亡及籍沒者。度世乃出。赴京，拜中書侍郎，襲爵。(WS047)

Lu Dushi because of Cui Hao's execution abandoned his office and fled to the household of Zheng Xiong in Gaoyang, who sheltered him. Envoys imprisoned Zheng Xiong's eldest son and were about to whip him. Zheng Xiong instructed him:

"A gentleman would sacrifice his life to be worthy of respect, you should not speak even in face of death."

His son followed his orders, and he was therefore tortured. In the end his body was burned, and he died from this, not having said a word. Lu Dushi later had his younger brother marry Zheng Xiong's younger sister to repay his kindness.

When Tuoba Tao overlooked the Yangtze, Liu Yilong sent his Palace General Huang Yannian to present tribute. Tuoba Tao asked Huang Yannian:

"Fanyang's Lu Dushi was tried for his close relationship with Cui Hao, and fled south of the Yangtze, would he have already arrived?"

Huang Yannian replied:

"The capital has not heard of this, he must not have arrived."

Tuoba Tao thus decreed for the East Palace to pardon Lu Dushi's relatives who had fled or been confiscated as government servants. Lu Dushi thus came out of hiding. Upon returning to the capital, he was conferred as Attendant to the Palace Secretary, and inherited his father's title.

(Tuoba Tao seemed to have mistakenly believed that Lu Dushi fled south. Upon hearing he didn't, he pardoned the Lu family as by this point he already regretted Cui Hao's execution)

[zgongjin]

No Shame Before Heaven

後秦王萇即皇帝位於長安，與群臣宴，酒酣，言曰：「諸卿皆與朕北面秦朝，今忽為君臣，得無恥乎！」趙遷曰：「天不恥以陛下為子，臣等何恥為臣！」

-- 《資治通鑒·卷一百六》

When Yao Chang, king of Later Qin, ascended the throne at Chang’an, he held a banquet with his ministers. As the wine flowed, he remarked, "All of you once faced north and served the Former Qin court together with me. Now, in an instant, you have become my officials—ought you not be ashamed?"

Zhao Qian replied: "If Heaven itself is not ashamed to call Your Majesty its Son, how could we be ashamed to serve you?"

-- Zizi Tongjian (Comprehensive Mirror in Aid of Governance), Volume 106

[craftercat]

Ah, Yao Chang. An... interesting character to say the least.

[craftercat]

Empress Zhangsun and Empress Dugu are more similar than they are different and that's not a conversation I think a lot of people are ready for. Like there are some clear differences (e.g Empress Dugu being famously jealous and Empress Zhangsun being famously not jealous) but both women were influential political partners to their husband who navigated the politics of being the empress well. Both Empress Zhangsun's assertiveness with her advice and Empress Dugu's genuine kindness seem to have been lost on people.

[craftercat]

Like some of the records on them are very similar:

Early qualities

Empress Zhangsun: 後喜圖傳，視古善惡以自鑒，矜尚禮法。

"The empress liked books and biographies, examined the ancient good and evil as a mirror for herself, and was reverent of etiquette."

Empress Dugu: 后初亦柔順恭孝，不失婦道。

"The empress was originally also gentle, respectful, and filial, and did not lose female virtue."

Humility before becoming empress

Empress Zhangsun: "時隱太子釁鬩已構，後內盡孝事高祖，謹承諸妃，消釋嫌猜。"

"At the time Crown Prince Yin (Li Jiancheng)'s smears and quarrels had already sowed dissension. The empress in the inner palace strived to serve Emperor Gaozu (Li Yuan) filially, and respected and honoured his various concubines, clearing up suspicion"

Empress Dugu: "后姊為周明帝后，長女為周宣帝后，貴戚之盛，莫與為比，而后每謙卑自守，世以為賢。"

"The empress's sister was the empress of Ming of Zhou (Yuwen Yu), her eldest daughter was the wife of Xuan of Zhou (Yuwen Yun), in the flourishing of noble relatives, none could compare. Yet the empress was always humble and with solid moral character, and the people of the time regarded her as admirable."

Discussion of political matters

Empress Zhangsun: "長孫皇后性仁孝儉素，好讀書，常與上從容商略古事，因而獻替，裨益弘多。"

"Empress Zhangsun's character was benevolent, filial and frugal. She enjoyed reading, and often discussed matters of ancient times with the emperor, in order to present what was feasible and discard what was not, which was of great benefit."

Empress Dugu: "使宦官伺上，政有所失，隨則匡諫，多所弘益。" "後雅好讀書，識達今古，凡言事皆與上意合，宮中稱為二聖。"

"Empress Dugu sent eunuchs to wait upon the emperor. If the government had faults, she would thus rectify them, which was of great benefit."

"The empress always enjoyed reading, with knowledge of the present and past. Her words and deeds joined with the emperor's wishes, and the palace called the Two Sages."

(Empress Zhangsun was clearly a lot more discreet than Empress Dugu with her influence)

Frugality

Empress Zhangsun: "性約素，服御取給則止。"

"The empress's character was frugal, taking what she needed and nothing else."

Empress Dugu: "後雅性儉約。帝常合止利藥，須胡粉一兩，宮內不用，求之竟不得。"

"The empress's character was always frugal. The emperor often prepared medicine to cure dysentery, which required one liang of foreign powder. The palace didn't have any, and after asking he still did not get it."

Showing awareness of the limits of female influence in politics

Empress Zhangsun: "與帝言，或及天下事，辭曰：「牝雞司晨，家之窮也，可乎？」帝固要之，訖不對。"

"She discussed with the emperor, and when a government matter came up, she would say 'When a woman interferes in politics, it finishes her family, how can I?'"

Empress Dugu: "有司奏曰：「《周禮》，百官之妻，命于王后。憲章在昔，請依古制。」後曰：「以婦人與政，或從此漸，不可開其源也。」不許。"

"The officials presented a memorial saying: 'In the Rites of Zhou, the wives of officials were conferred by the Queen. To comply with the laws of the past, we ask to follow the ancient system.' The empress said: 'The involvement of women in politics could permeate from this. This cannot become its origin.' Thus it was rejected."

Benevolence within the palace

Empress Zhangsun: "後廷有被罪者，必助帝怒請繩治，俟意解，徐為開治，終不令有冤；下嬪生豫章公主而死，後視如所生；媵侍疾病，輟所禦飲藥資之。下懷其仁。"

"When someone in the empress's court was to be punished, she would assist the emperor in his anger to ask for punishment, waiting for the anger to subside. Then she would slowly ask to lift the punishment, and in the end there would be no injustice. When Concubine Xia died giving birth to a daughter Princess Yuzhang, the empress raised her as her own, and if a concubine or maid was ill, she suspended her medical expenses to provide for her. This was the benevolence of her heart."

Empress Dugu: "後頗仁愛，每聞大理決囚，未嘗不流涕。", "後早失二親，常懷感慕，見公卿有父母者，每為致禮焉。"

"The empress was quite benevolent, and every time she heard that the Superintendent of Law Enforcement had executed a criminal, she would shed tears."

"The empress lost both her parents young, and she always thought of them fondly in her heart. When she saw a minister with a mother and father, she would always treat them with great respect."

Begging for the life of a brother who wronged them

Empress Zhangsun: "異母兄安業無行，父喪，逐後、無忌還外家。後貴，未嘗以為言。擢位將軍。後與李孝常等謀反，將誅，後叩頭曰：「安業罪死無赦。然向遇妾不以慈，戶知之；今論如法，人必謂妾釋憾於兄，無乃為帝累乎！」遂得減流越巂。"

"The empress's brother of a different mother, Anye, was unruly. After the death of their father, he chased out the empress and Wuji to live with their mother's family. When the empress became noble, she did not speak of this. He was selected as a general. Later he, Li Xiaochang and others plotted rebellion and were to be executed. The empress kowtowed and said: 'Anye's crimes deserve death without pardon. Yet he has not been kind of me, and the people know this; if it were according to the law, people would certainly say I unleashed revenge upon my brother, would this not be a burden to the emperor?' Thus his punishment was reduced to exile to the Yue region."

Empress Dugu: "后異母弟陀，以猫鬼巫蠱，咒詛於后，坐當死。后三日不食，為之請命曰：「陀若蠧政害民者，妾不敢言。今坐為妾身，敢請其命。」陀於是減死一等。"

"The empress's brother of a different brother, Dugu Tuo, used cat-spirit witchcraft to curse the empress. He was tried and sentenced to death. The empress refused to eat for three days, and begged for his life, saying: 'If Tuo were eroding the government and harming the people, I would not dare to speak. Now he is to be convicted for me, I dare to ask for his life.' Tuo's punishment was thus reduced by one degree."

Strictness with imperial relatives

Empress Zhangsun: "訓諸子，常以謙儉為先，太子乳母遂安夫人嘗白後，以東宮器用少，請奏益之。後不許，曰：「為太子，患在德不立，名不揚，何患無器用邪！」"

"When teaching her sons, the empress always put modesty and frugality first. The crown prince's wet-nurse Lady Sui'an once submitted a memorial to the empress, saying that the East Palace's materials were low, and asking to increase them. The empress refused, saying: 'A crown prince should only worry about not establishing virtue or not having fame. Why worry about not having materials?'"

(One thing about Empress Zhangsun I've noted is that the speech recorded in the text actually sounds quite assured, even if she has the habit of using the humble pronoun of 妾. She has a tendency to use affirmative particles at the end of her sentences, or to use exclamations. Empress Dugu's speech reads similarly, though we have less speech from her)

Empress Dugu: 后每謂諸公主曰：「周家公主，類無婦德，失禮於舅姑，離薄人骨肉，此不順事，爾等當誡之。」

"The empress often said to the various princesses: 'The princesses of Zhou lacked in womanly virtue and were incestuous with aunts and uncles and distant from their flesh and blood. This is not a matter to follow, you all should observe this as a warning."

Refusing to put personal needs before that of the country

Empress Zhangsun: 太子言於後曰：「醫藥備盡而疾不瘳，請奏赦罪人及度人入道，庶獲冥福。」後曰：「死生有命，非智力所移。若為善有福，則吾不為惡；如其不然，妄求何益！赦者國之大事，不可數下。道、釋異端之教，蠹國病民，皆上素所不為，奈何以吾一婦人使上為所不為乎？必行汝言，吾不如速死！」太子不敢奏，私以語房玄齡，玄齡白上，上哀之，欲為之赦，後固止之。

"The crown prince said to the empress: 'We have prepared medicine to the fullest and yet your illness has not been cured. I ask to pardon criminals and allowing people to enter the Dao (Daoist temples), in order to obtain blessings.' The empress said: 'Life and death is fate, and there is no knowledge that can change it. If doing good deeds gives good fortune, then I have not done evil; if it does not, then what benefit is such an absurd request! A pardon is a major matter of the country, and cannot be frequent. Daoism and Buddhism are heretical doctrines, eroding the country and sickening the people, and such things would never be done for His Majesty. How could I, one woman, do something His Majesty would not? If it must be as you say, I would rather die quicker!' The crown prince did not dare to present, and secretly told it to Fang Xuanling. Fang Xuanling presented the memorial, and the emperor was mournful and wanted to give a pardon. The empress was stubborn in going against it, and stopped it from happening."

(Note that the language in the ZZTJ is very strong. The language in the JTS isn't as strong, but she sounds very self-assured there as well)

Empress Dugu: 大都督崔長仁，后之中外兄弟也，犯法當斬。高祖以后之故，欲免其罪。后曰：「國家之事，焉可顧私！」長仁竟坐死。

"The capital supervisor Cui Changren was the empress's maternal relative. He violated the law and was due to be executed. Gaozu (Yang Jian), because of the empress's friendship with him, wanted to pardon his crime. The empress said: 'This is a matter of the country, how could private interests be attended to!' Changren was thus tried and executed.'

Refusing expensive gifts

Empress Zhangsun: "后所生長樂公主，太宗特所鐘愛，及將出降，敕所司資送倍於長公主。魏徵諫曰：「昔漢明帝時，將封皇子，帝曰：『朕子安得同於先帝子乎！』然謂長主者，良以尊於公主也，情雖有差，義無等別。若令公主之禮有過長主，理恐不可，願陛下思之。」太宗以其言退而告后，后嘆曰： 「嘗聞陛下重魏徵，殊未知其故。今聞其諫，實乃能以義制主之情，可謂正直社稷之臣矣。妾與陛下結髮為夫婦，曲蒙禮待，情義深重，每言必候顏色，尚不敢輕犯威嚴，況在臣下，情疏禮隔，故韓非為之說難，東方稱其不易，良有以也。忠言逆於耳而利於行，有國有家者急務，納之則俗寧，杜之則政亂，誠願陛下詳之，則天下幸甚。」

因請遣中使繼錢四百緡、絹四百匹以賜征，且語之曰：「聞公正直，乃今見之，故以相賞。公宜常秉此心，勿轉移也。」"

"The Princess Changle was due to be married. The emperor, because she was the empress's daughter, especially loved her, and decreed the officials to send a dowry double that of Princess Yongjia. Wei Zheng remonstrated, saying: 'In the past Emperor Ming of Han wanted to enfeoff the princes, saying: 'How can my sons compare to the sons of the previous emperor?' And for one who is older, who is respected above a princess, while there may be differences in feeling, etiquette does not have this distinction. If you were to order the princess's rites to go above that of a Grand Princess, rationally this cannot be done, and I hope Your Majesty considers this.' The emperor reported his words to the empress.

The empress sighed and said: 'I have heard Your Majesty values Wei Zheng, but I did not know why, now watching him lead in etiquette to suppress the feelings of the ruler, I now know he is an honest minister! Your Majesty and I have been married since we were youths, with great courtesy and deep feelings. Every word I say is prepared in advance, not daring to lightly violate your power; the situation for a subject with different rites and distant relationships, in the past Han Fei said this was hard, and Dongfang Shuo spoke of its unease, and it is very much true. Loyal words that violate the ears are beneficial for acting, in the matters of country and family, taking them will lead to a peaceful society, and resisting will lead to chaotic governance. I sincerely hope Your Majesty will take it, as the empire will be especially blessed.'

Thereupon she asked for Wei Zheng to be sent 400 coins and 400 bolts of silk, and said to him: 'I have heard of your uprightness, and now I see it, hence the reward. You should continue to uphold this heart, and do not change it.'"

(sidenote, but Wei Zheng remonstrances in a quite similar way to Empress Zhangsun. Both allude to historical examples to advise Li Shimin, but clearly Wei Zheng was more blunt in doing so)

Empress Dugu: "突厥嘗與中國交市，有明珠一篋，價值八百萬，幽州總管陰壽白后市之。后曰：「非我所須也。當今戎狄屢寇，將士罷勞，未若以八百萬分賞有功者。」百僚聞而畢賀。"

"The Turks once had a diplomatic exchange, and there was a case of pearls, worth eight million. The Manager of You Province, Yin Shou, asked for the empress to buy it. The empress said: 'This is not necessary for me. Now the Rong and Di are frequently invading, and the soldiers are exhausted. It is not as good as using the eight million to reward the meritorious.' The officials heard and congratulated her."

I think there are three areas where they notably diverge. The first is that Empress Dugu valued monogamous relationships, was jealous herself and valued people who remained faithful to their wives, while Empress Zhangsun was noted for not being jealous and did not care about monogamy. The second is that Empress Dugu was a lot more overt in her influence compared to Empress Zhangsun. And the third is that Empress Dugu was more prone to ruthlessness, such as her scheming against Gao Jiong, and while Empress Zhangsun was capable of ruthlessness (as shown by her involvement in the Xuanwu Gate Incident), she preferred to maintain good relationships with officials and asked for her husband to recall Fang Xuanling on her deathbed.

Outside of these areas, their political careers are relatively similar. They started out as wives of accomplished gentlemen who rose to power, and they became empress. During their time as empress they were noted for their frugality, benevolence within the palace, and used their influence for good (except at the end of Empress Dugu's influence with Yang Guang and Gao Jiong). While they did have influence, they also had to acknowledge the limits of female influence in the time period without creating trouble in the court, though Empress Dugu managed to be more overt than Empress Zhangsun. I guess it was personal preference; Empress Zhangsun seemed more introverted and adherent to protocol than Dugu Qieluo.

[craftercat]

I think if Empress Zhangsun were a man, she would probably be described similarly to Tuoba Si and rule in a similar style. Tuoba Si was also known for his intelligence, propriety, magnanimity, filial piety and intellectual inclinations. He also had a cautious and cooperative leadership style where he tended to value loyalty, talent and honest advice (she valued Wei Zheng, while Tuoba Si valued Cui Hao), and both were noted for their abilities in 庶事. And there's this same kind of feeling with both of them that they believe that something is about to go wrong and they have to stop things going wrong. Oh, and they're both described as having a weak constitution. And both of their speech patterns tend to make use of pronouns indicating social status (she uses 妾 a lot in her speech, while he tends to use 朕 a lot before his semi-retirement in 422).

Her speech patterns and actions with Li Chengqian and Wei Zheng are probably closer to how she would speak and act if she were a man and the emperor than her speech with Li Shimin, because she's Li Shimin's subject and Li Shimin was known for his bad temper, so she would probably restrain herself (but given the fact that Li Shimin praises her skills in 庶事 (general administrative affairs) and after her death, focuses on her remonstrances rather than her virtues, I think that she gave other advice to Li Shimin that didn't make it into records, and it's the same with Empress Dugu, she clearly gave a lot of advice that went unrecorded). But he was able to express his assertiveness more freely than her because of the gender roles and ruler-subject etiquette.

(Also, she does have notable similarities with Xu Hui, but their speaking styles are notably different; she is more direct/affirmative with her language, Xu Hui is more metaphorical and elegant. Classical Chinese is one of those languages where word choice can reveal a lot about personality. And her usage of historical examples is closer to how Wei Zheng uses them as opposed to Xu Hui. Meanwhile Empress Dugu's character reads as quite similar to Empress Dowager Feng's in terms of their frugality, authority and suspiciousness)

[craftercat]

Empress Zhangsun and Empress Dugu are more similar than they are different and that's not a conversation I think a lot of people are ready for. Like there are some clear differences (e.g Empress Dugu being famously jealous and Empress Zhangsun being famously not jealous) but both women were influential political partners to their husband who navigated the politics of being the empress well. Both Empress Zhangsun's assertiveness with her advice and Empress Dugu's genuine kindness seem to have been lost on people.

[craftercat]

Like some of the records on them are very similar:

Early qualities

Empress Zhangsun: 後喜圖傳，視古善惡以自鑒，矜尚禮法。

"The empress liked books and biographies, examined the ancient good and evil as a mirror for herself, and was reverent of etiquette."

Empress Dugu: 后初亦柔順恭孝，不失婦道。

"The empress was originally also gentle, respectful, and filial, and did not lose female virtue."

Humility before becoming empress

Empress Zhangsun: "時隱太子釁鬩已構，後內盡孝事高祖，謹承諸妃，消釋嫌猜。"

"At the time Crown Prince Yin (Li Jiancheng)'s smears and quarrels had already sowed dissension. The empress in the inner palace strived to serve Emperor Gaozu (Li Yuan) filially, and respected and honoured his various concubines, clearing up suspicion"

Empress Dugu: "后姊為周明帝后，長女為周宣帝后，貴戚之盛，莫與為比，而后每謙卑自守，世以為賢。"

"The empress's sister was the empress of Ming of Zhou (Yuwen Yu), her eldest daughter was the wife of Xuan of Zhou (Yuwen Yun), in the flourishing of noble relatives, none could compare. Yet the empress was always humble and with solid moral character, and the people of the time regarded her as admirable."

Discussion of political matters

Empress Zhangsun: "長孫皇后性仁孝儉素，好讀書，常與上從容商略古事，因而獻替，裨益弘多。"

"Empress Zhangsun's character was benevolent, filial and frugal. She enjoyed reading, and often discussed matters of ancient times with the emperor, in order to present what was feasible and discard what was not, which was of great benefit."

Empress Dugu: "使宦官伺上，政有所失，隨則匡諫，多所弘益。" "後雅好讀書，識達今古，凡言事皆與上意合，宮中稱為二聖。"

"Empress Dugu sent eunuchs to wait upon the emperor. If the government had faults, she would thus rectify them, which was of great benefit."

"The empress always enjoyed reading, with knowledge of the present and past. Her words and deeds joined with the emperor's wishes, and the palace called the Two Sages."

(Empress Zhangsun was clearly a lot more discreet than Empress Dugu with her influence)

Frugality

Empress Zhangsun: "性約素，服御取給則止。"

"The empress's character was frugal, taking what she needed and nothing else."

Empress Dugu: "後雅性儉約。帝常合止利藥，須胡粉一兩，宮內不用，求之竟不得。"

"The empress's character was always frugal. The emperor often prepared medicine to cure dysentery, which required one liang of foreign powder. The palace didn't have any, and after asking he still did not get it."

Showing awareness of the limits of female influence in politics

Empress Zhangsun: "與帝言，或及天下事，辭曰：「牝雞司晨，家之窮也，可乎？」帝固要之，訖不對。"

"She discussed with the emperor, and when a government matter came up, she would say 'When a woman interferes in politics, it finishes her family, how can I?'"

Empress Dugu: "有司奏曰：「《周禮》，百官之妻，命于王后。憲章在昔，請依古制。」後曰：「以婦人與政，或從此漸，不可開其源也。」不許。"

"The officials presented a memorial saying: 'In the Rites of Zhou, the wives of officials were conferred by the Queen. To comply with the laws of the past, we ask to follow the ancient system.' The empress said: 'The involvement of women in politics could permeate from this. This cannot become its origin.' Thus it was rejected."

Benevolence within the palace

Empress Zhangsun: "後廷有被罪者，必助帝怒請繩治，俟意解，徐為開治，終不令有冤；下嬪生豫章公主而死，後視如所生；媵侍疾病，輟所禦飲藥資之。下懷其仁。"

"When someone in the empress's court was to be punished, she would assist the emperor in his anger to ask for punishment, waiting for the anger to subside. Then she would slowly ask to lift the punishment, and in the end there would be no injustice. When Concubine Xia died giving birth to a daughter Princess Yuzhang, the empress raised her as her own, and if a concubine or maid was ill, she suspended her medical expenses to provide for her. This was the benevolence of her heart."

Empress Dugu: "後頗仁愛，每聞大理決囚，未嘗不流涕。", "後早失二親，常懷感慕，見公卿有父母者，每為致禮焉。"

"The empress was quite benevolent, and every time she heard that the Superintendent of Law Enforcement had executed a criminal, she would shed tears."

"The empress lost both her parents young, and she always thought of them fondly in her heart. When she saw a minister with a mother and father, she would always treat them with great respect."

Begging for the life of a brother who wronged them

Empress Zhangsun: "異母兄安業無行，父喪，逐後、無忌還外家。後貴，未嘗以為言。擢位將軍。後與李孝常等謀反，將誅，後叩頭曰：「安業罪死無赦。然向遇妾不以慈，戶知之；今論如法，人必謂妾釋憾於兄，無乃為帝累乎！」遂得減流越巂。"

"The empress's brother of a different mother, Anye, was unruly. After the death of their father, he chased out the empress and Wuji to live with their mother's family. When the empress became noble, she did not speak of this. He was selected as a general. Later he, Li Xiaochang and others plotted rebellion and were to be executed. The empress kowtowed and said: 'Anye's crimes deserve death without pardon. Yet he has not been kind of me, and the people know this; if it were according to the law, people would certainly say I unleashed revenge upon my brother, would this not be a burden to the emperor?' Thus his punishment was reduced to exile to the Yue region."

Empress Dugu: "后異母弟陀，以猫鬼巫蠱，咒詛於后，坐當死。后三日不食，為之請命曰：「陀若蠧政害民者，妾不敢言。今坐為妾身，敢請其命。」陀於是減死一等。"

"The empress's brother of a different brother, Dugu Tuo, used cat-spirit witchcraft to curse the empress. He was tried and sentenced to death. The empress refused to eat for three days, and begged for his life, saying: 'If Tuo were eroding the government and harming the people, I would not dare to speak. Now he is to be convicted for me, I dare to ask for his life.' Tuo's punishment was thus reduced by one degree."

Strictness with imperial relatives

Empress Zhangsun: "訓諸子，常以謙儉為先，太子乳母遂安夫人嘗白後，以東宮器用少，請奏益之。後不許，曰：「為太子，患在德不立，名不揚，何患無器用邪！」"

"When teaching her sons, the empress always put modesty and frugality first. The crown prince's wet-nurse Lady Sui'an once submitted a memorial to the empress, saying that the East Palace's materials were low, and asking to increase them. The empress refused, saying: 'A crown prince should only worry about not establishing virtue or not having fame. Why worry about not having materials?'"

(One thing about Empress Zhangsun I've noted is that the speech recorded in the text actually sounds quite assured, even if she has the habit of using the humble pronoun of 妾. She has a tendency to use affirmative particles at the end of her sentences, or to use exclamations. Empress Dugu's speech reads similarly, though we have less speech from her)

Empress Dugu: 后每謂諸公主曰：「周家公主，類無婦德，失禮於舅姑，離薄人骨肉，此不順事，爾等當誡之。」

"The empress often said to the various princesses: 'The princesses of Zhou lacked in womanly virtue and were incestuous with aunts and uncles and distant from their flesh and blood. This is not a matter to follow, you all should observe this as a warning."

Refusing to put personal needs before that of the country

Empress Zhangsun: 太子言於後曰：「醫藥備盡而疾不瘳，請奏赦罪人及度人入道，庶獲冥福。」後曰：「死生有命，非智力所移。若為善有福，則吾不為惡；如其不然，妄求何益！赦者國之大事，不可數下。道、釋異端之教，蠹國病民，皆上素所不為，奈何以吾一婦人使上為所不為乎？必行汝言，吾不如速死！」太子不敢奏，私以語房玄齡，玄齡白上，上哀之，欲為之赦，後固止之。

"The crown prince said to the empress: 'We have prepared medicine to the fullest and yet your illness has not been cured. I ask to pardon criminals and allowing people to enter the Dao (Daoist temples), in order to obtain blessings.' The empress said: 'Life and death is fate, and there is no knowledge that can change it. If doing good deeds gives good fortune, then I have not done evil; if it does not, then what benefit is such an absurd request! A pardon is a major matter of the country, and cannot be frequent. Daoism and Buddhism are heretical doctrines, eroding the country and sickening the people, and such things would never be done for His Majesty. How could I, one woman, do something His Majesty would not? If it must be as you say, I would rather die quicker!' The crown prince did not dare to present, and secretly told it to Fang Xuanling. Fang Xuanling presented the memorial, and the emperor was mournful and wanted to give a pardon. The empress was stubborn in going against it, and stopped it from happening."

(Note that the language in the ZZTJ is very strong. The language in the JTS isn't as strong, but she sounds very self-assured there as well)

Empress Dugu: 大都督崔長仁，后之中外兄弟也，犯法當斬。高祖以后之故，欲免其罪。后曰：「國家之事，焉可顧私！」長仁竟坐死。

"The capital supervisor Cui Changren was the empress's maternal relative. He violated the law and was due to be executed. Gaozu (Yang Jian), because of the empress's friendship with him, wanted to pardon his crime. The empress said: 'This is a matter of the country, how could private interests be attended to!' Changren was thus tried and executed.'

Refusing expensive gifts

Empress Zhangsun: "后所生長樂公主，太宗特所鐘愛，及將出降，敕所司資送倍於長公主。魏徵諫曰：「昔漢明帝時，將封皇子，帝曰：『朕子安得同於先帝子乎！』然謂長主者，良以尊於公主也，情雖有差，義無等別。若令公主之禮有過長主，理恐不可，願陛下思之。」太宗以其言退而告后，后嘆曰： 「嘗聞陛下重魏徵，殊未知其故。今聞其諫，實乃能以義制主之情，可謂正直社稷之臣矣。妾與陛下結髮為夫婦，曲蒙禮待，情義深重，每言必候顏色，尚不敢輕犯威嚴，況在臣下，情疏禮隔，故韓非為之說難，東方稱其不易，良有以也。忠言逆於耳而利於行，有國有家者急務，納之則俗寧，杜之則政亂，誠願陛下詳之，則天下幸甚。」

因請遣中使繼錢四百緡、絹四百匹以賜征，且語之曰：「聞公正直，乃今見之，故以相賞。公宜常秉此心，勿轉移也。」"

"The Princess Changle was due to be married. The emperor, because she was the empress's daughter, especially loved her, and decreed the officials to send a dowry double that of Princess Yongjia. Wei Zheng remonstrated, saying: 'In the past Emperor Ming of Han wanted to enfeoff the princes, saying: 'How can my sons compare to the sons of the previous emperor?' And for one who is older, who is respected above a princess, while there may be differences in feeling, etiquette does not have this distinction. If you were to order the princess's rites to go above that of a Grand Princess, rationally this cannot be done, and I hope Your Majesty considers this.' The emperor reported his words to the empress.

The empress sighed and said: 'I have heard Your Majesty values Wei Zheng, but I did not know why, now watching him lead in etiquette to suppress the feelings of the ruler, I now know he is an honest minister! Your Majesty and I have been married since we were youths, with great courtesy and deep feelings. Every word I say is prepared in advance, not daring to lightly violate your power; the situation for a subject with different rites and distant relationships, in the past Han Fei said this was hard, and Dongfang Shuo spoke of its unease, and it is very much true. Loyal words that violate the ears are beneficial for acting, in the matters of country and family, taking them will lead to a peaceful society, and resisting will lead to chaotic governance. I sincerely hope Your Majesty will take it, as the empire will be especially blessed.'

Thereupon she asked for Wei Zheng to be sent 400 coins and 400 bolts of silk, and said to him: 'I have heard of your uprightness, and now I see it, hence the reward. You should continue to uphold this heart, and do not change it.'"

(sidenote, but Wei Zheng remonstrances in a quite similar way to Empress Zhangsun. Both allude to historical examples to advise Li Shimin, but clearly Wei Zheng was more blunt in doing so)

Empress Dugu: "突厥嘗與中國交市，有明珠一篋，價值八百萬，幽州總管陰壽白后市之。后曰：「非我所須也。當今戎狄屢寇，將士罷勞，未若以八百萬分賞有功者。」百僚聞而畢賀。"

"The Turks once had a diplomatic exchange, and there was a case of pearls, worth eight million. The Manager of You Province, Yin Shou, asked for the empress to buy it. The empress said: 'This is not necessary for me. Now the Rong and Di are frequently invading, and the soldiers are exhausted. It is not as good as using the eight million to reward the meritorious.' The officials heard and congratulated her."

I think there are three areas where they notably diverge. The first is that Empress Dugu valued monogamous relationships, was jealous herself and valued people who remained faithful to their wives, while Empress Zhangsun was noted for not being jealous and did not care about monogamy. The second is that Empress Dugu was a lot more overt in her influence compared to Empress Zhangsun. And the third is that Empress Dugu was more prone to ruthlessness, such as her scheming against Gao Jiong, and while Empress Zhangsun was capable of ruthlessness (as shown by her involvement in the Xuanwu Gate Incident), she preferred to maintain good relationships with officials and asked for her husband to recall Fang Xuanling on her deathbed.

Outside of these areas, their political careers are relatively similar. They started out as wives of accomplished gentlemen who rose to power, and they became empress. During their time as empress they were noted for their frugality, benevolence within the palace, and used their influence for good (except at the end of Empress Dugu's influence with Yang Guang and Gao Jiong). While they did have influence, they also had to acknowledge the limits of female influence in the time period without creating trouble in the court, though Empress Dugu managed to be more overt than Empress Zhangsun. I guess it was personal preference; Empress Zhangsun seemed more introverted and adherent to protocol than Dugu Qieluo.

[craftercat]

Empress Zhangsun and Empress Dugu are more similar than they are different and that's not a conversation I think a lot of people are ready for. Like there are some clear differences (e.g Empress Dugu being famously jealous and Empress Zhangsun being famously not jealous) but both women were influential political partners to their husband who navigated the politics of being the empress well. Both Empress Zhangsun's assertiveness with her advice and Empress Dugu's genuine kindness seem to have been lost on people.