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[hastespell]

hey 2004 white wolf, wanna explain why exactly you thought it was a good idea to make HUMAN SACRIFICE a necessary part of redemption in Devil's Due, you did not have to do that, you could have removed 1 rules and not had that be the case

Devil's due demons spend their torment (not XP) on their powers and CANNOT lower their torment below what they would need to pay for their powers, while thralls can simply give up their powers whenever, demons can only give up their power through a ritual right after possession. meaning that a fallen with more than 10 points of powers MUST posses and basically kill another person in order to find "redemption"

If Devil's due carried through with the more grey tone of DTF that might actually be a cool bit of commentary about heaven and religion, but it's not

[hastespell]

One of the funnier parts of DTF in the wider WoD cannon is that demonic thralls arguably have a better deal than most other half-splats. Since they get actual powers (unlike ghouls and kinfolk) and can count on some proper protection from their full splat (unlike say, an Arcanum sorcerer)

yes demons can abuse their thralls but 1 so can everyone else and 2 given that thralls are the ONLY passive source of faith (in the modern day at least) that is generally a bad idea

Kinain are still better because arts are busted though (unfortunately the fae don't actually know how to make those)

[hastespell]

Some people really act like demon the fallen retconned werewolf, as if mage/changeling and werewolf hadn't been contradicting either on every little detail for almost a decade at that point.

[sharkrad08222222]

Eh, those two still work with the Umbra, just form a different Prespetive. Though Demon has no fucking clue what the Werewolves are and Mostly no idea about what Mages and Changelings are. But still the whole "God did it" is kinda a hard thing to shake off, especially given the Rokea as a breed claiming to be MILLIONS of years old, the kingdom of the lizard kings and other things. OF course their is something going on called "Layed Reality" but I hate that explanation.

[hastespell]

How does demon not work with the umbra? that's like saying vampire doesn't work with the umbra. It's simply not something either splat is equipped to handle or really ever find. that's like complaining that mummy is bad because they don't interact with glamour or banality.

you do know that demon doesn't involve a young earth right? DTF's prehistory takes place untold eons ago.

Mages are one of two other supernaturals demons actually know anything about, and why is the demons confusion about other supernaturals relevant here?

[sharkrad08222222]

Form what I understand they dont iteract with the Umbra as much. It's not a bad thing, plenty of hunters dont, but Mage, and Changeling, your examples, dont Deviate form Werewolf as much. Hell Vampire, with the Ebony Kingdom, Shows us that the Progenitor of Vampirism doesnt have to be Cain, and Vampirism becomes much more strange when that happens, giving some credence to other stories, like Werewolves the bloody man. Also I was not aware of that, but it that's the case, why are they so surprised about Shifters in General? Wouldn't they have run into Rokea and the VERY LARGE kingdom of the lizard kings? Which brings me into the "Demons do not know about werewolves, the spirit, and only a bit about changelings."They dont They didnt exist during the wars of Wrath and they didnt exist after it

The fallen are mystified as to why their presence prompts such a vicious reaction, as werewolves didn’t even exist as far as they know during the War of Wrath. Demon Storyteller Companion, page 70.

In other words, they got nothing on them. Also they call the whole Umbra, the Realm of the dead and the book doesn't talk about them Encountering Stuff like Banes. Hell the book it's self seems to not even Mention Changelings or the Dreaming at all. I do remember a post saying that they probably Recognize Changelings as creations of Mankind, but IDK where to find it.

[hastespell]

yeah the shifters were not a thing during the war of wrath , apparently in the eon or two since then, things have changed, It's almost like that's the main point of the game or something.

(for real though demon the fallen is as accurate to the bible as werewolf is to hinduism, don't assume any random piece of weird biblical literalism is part of it's lore)

Of course you already said your peace about layered reality and that's a perfectly fine personal preference to have, but not an actual flaw of DTF.

Also yes it is kind of weird how the demon ST guide just skips over changeling, the kith and fallen have a LOT in common actually and a bunch of interesting possible dynamics

[sharkrad08222222]

They still meantion Humans being around during this time, so it was pre history of Humanity but it should also be the era of the Golden age of the Fera, before the Impgrium. It wasnt that long ago is what I am saying.

Something else was going on at the time and it's either the Demons where blind to it or the layered Reality is...stranger than I thought. Still, Layered Reality seems like a Cop out to me. And GOD so true. I think changeling 20th meantions the fallen, let me check.

[hastespell]

as i said, without the whole franken-timeline/multiple choice past thing wod has going on your trying to make a timeline that was never meant to be made

Also C20 does have a demon profile, that being said it's just "demons exist, house Balour says they are thallians from a previous cycle"

(now that i think about having the demons return to a straight up different world than the one they made sounds pretty cool, maybe humanity had simply not entered the world of darkness when the Lizard kings were around)

[hastespell]

Some people really act like demon the fallen retconned werewolf, as if mage/changeling and werewolf hadn't been contradicting either on every little detail for almost a decade at that point.

[sharkrad08222222]

Eh, those two still work with the Umbra, just form a different Prespetive. Though Demon has no fucking clue what the Werewolves are and Mostly no idea about what Mages and Changelings are. But still the whole "God did it" is kinda a hard thing to shake off, especially given the Rokea as a breed claiming to be MILLIONS of years old, the kingdom of the lizard kings and other things. OF course their is something going on called "Layed Reality" but I hate that explanation.

[hastespell]

How does demon not work with the umbra? that's like saying vampire doesn't work with the umbra. It's simply not something either splat is equipped to handle or really ever find. that's like complaining that mummy is bad because they don't interact with glamour or banality.

you do know that demon doesn't involve a young earth right? DTF's prehistory takes place untold eons ago.

Mages are one of two other supernaturals demons actually know anything about, and why is the demons confusion about other supernaturals relevant here?

[sharkrad08222222]

Form what I understand they dont iteract with the Umbra as much. It's not a bad thing, plenty of hunters dont, but Mage, and Changeling, your examples, dont Deviate form Werewolf as much. Hell Vampire, with the Ebony Kingdom, Shows us that the Progenitor of Vampirism doesnt have to be Cain, and Vampirism becomes much more strange when that happens, giving some credence to other stories, like Werewolves the bloody man. Also I was not aware of that, but it that's the case, why are they so surprised about Shifters in General? Wouldn't they have run into Rokea and the VERY LARGE kingdom of the lizard kings? Which brings me into the "Demons do not know about werewolves, the spirit, and only a bit about changelings."They dont They didnt exist during the wars of Wrath and they didnt exist after it

The fallen are mystified as to why their presence prompts such a vicious reaction, as werewolves didn’t even exist as far as they know during the War of Wrath. Demon Storyteller Companion, page 70.

In other words, they got nothing on them. Also they call the whole Umbra, the Realm of the dead and the book doesn't talk about them Encountering Stuff like Banes. Hell the book it's self seems to not even Mention Changelings or the Dreaming at all. I do remember a post saying that they probably Recognize Changelings as creations of Mankind, but IDK where to find it.

[hastespell]

yeah the shifters were not a thing during the war of wrath , apparently in the eon or two since then, things have changed, It's almost like that's the main point of the game or something.

(for real though demon the fallen is as accurate to the bible as werewolf is to hinduism, don't assume any random piece of weird biblical literalism is part of it's lore)

Of course you already said your peace about layered reality and that's a perfectly fine personal preference to have, but not an actual flaw of DTF.

Also yes it is kind of weird how the demon ST guide just skips over changeling, the kith and fallen have a LOT in common actually and a bunch of interesting possible dynamics

[hastespell]

Some people really act like demon the fallen retconned werewolf, as if mage/changeling and werewolf hadn't been contradicting either on every little detail for almost a decade at that point.

[sharkrad08222222]

Eh, those two still work with the Umbra, just form a different Prespetive. Though Demon has no fucking clue what the Werewolves are and Mostly no idea about what Mages and Changelings are. But still the whole "God did it" is kinda a hard thing to shake off, especially given the Rokea as a breed claiming to be MILLIONS of years old, the kingdom of the lizard kings and other things. OF course their is something going on called "Layed Reality" but I hate that explanation.

[hastespell]

How does demon not work with the umbra? that's like saying vampire doesn't work with the umbra. It's simply not something either splat is equipped to handle or really ever find. that's like complaining that mummy is bad because they don't interact with glamour or banality.

you do know that demon doesn't involve a young earth right? DTF's prehistory takes place untold eons ago.

Mages are one of two other supernaturals demons actually know anything about, and why is the demons confusion about other supernaturals relevant here?

[hastespell]

Some people really act like demon the fallen retconned werewolf, as if mage/changeling and werewolf hadn't been contradicting either on every little detail for almost a decade at that point.

[hastespell]

as a big fan of DTF/MTA it's always weird to go back to WTA and CTD and see how "uncritical" they are of the ACTUAL supernatural systems in their societies.

Seriously like half of the lore from the demon rulebook can be summarized as " the rebellion was ultimately founded by divine teenagers who didn't know what they were doing and often repeated or created worse versions of the very systems they tried to fight against."

Meanwhile every WTA is always "Gaia may have a track record of nothing but questionable decisions and extreme negligence but she's still our perfect GODDESS, who you should never question, and everything bad was always everyone else's fault"

Then changeling has always had the whole, fantasy of noble knights and kings versus what they actually did issue, which gives a lot of the book some horrific implications.

[sharkrad08222222]

WtA has the Gouro nation be heavily flawed, like yeah Gaia is cool cause she’s both the balance of the trait and embodies that though nature, even if both those things can be cruel, thier not bad and fighting for such a thing is noble, even if the rest of the nation isn’t really.

As for changelings, isn’t that what the unseelie all about?

rather than participate in the favors game that is the changeling fuedal kings and structure, they instead have more individualistic views and opparchs.

Rather than form oath bound protectors of glamour, which could mean anything form a society built on trust and supporting artist to a society built on predatory dealings and isolating artists and artistic works that could help shake the banality.

Unseelie mean while are constantly changing and inoviting their ways while spreading glamour around. Of course this could mean “We will spread new ideas around because glamour should be free!” While other go “ I can’t trust any one but my self, but at least glamour is free for the taking” they say as they rip they ravage someone for glamour.

Point is, it’s more complacocated than that.

[hastespell]

My problem isn't the nation, I know well that their horribly flawed but still a thousand times better than what they fight. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY LITERALLY WORK FOR HER, THEIR ACTIONS ARE HER'S (and the tribal totems but that's a whole different can of wyrms). While she can't really command them now on account of the whole dying/dead thing, SHE WASN'T ALWAYS THAT WAY.

The war of rage/the Impergium, the war of tears, the white howlers, the Mokolé before humanity, she has watched her children kill each other and slaughter the innocent time and time again, and the closest she has ever come to doing anything about is telling the wolves "no eating people." How am I supposed to blame the wolves for their flaws when the only thing I know Gaia could ever do is make more child soldiers

And that's before we get to the aforementioned child soldiering, killing the elderly, the veil. Half of the nations flaws exist BECAUSE SHE ENDORSES THEM.

don't get me wrong Gaia dying is really bad, but Ignoring how many of her and the Garou's problems stem from her own lackluster leadership feels a bit too "god works in mysterious ways" for me

I could probably have done a better job explaining my problem with changeling, It's while yes the seelie/unseelie conflict exists, it's always been much more about tradition versus individualism as vague philosophies rather than the actual moral value of said traditions, notice how all of the changeling example you provided were based on glamour, not people, that the Fae will lord above the mortals and that said mortals live to give the fae glamour is always a given (except for House Liam), the difference is practically cosmetic.

[hastespell]

DTF botched the concept pretty badly but the idea of a WOD game where your powers become less versatile and more combat/damage focused as your morality stat decreases is genuinely amazing (it probably shouldn't be an every power thing though.)

[hastespell]

as a big fan of DTF/MTA it's always weird to go back to WTA and CTD and see how "uncritical" they are of the ACTUAL supernatural systems in their societies.

Seriously like half of the lore from the demon rulebook can be summarized as " the rebellion was ultimately founded by divine teenagers who didn't know what they were doing and often repeated or created worse versions of the very systems they tried to fight against."

Meanwhile every WTA book is always "Gaia may have a track record of nothing but questionable decisions and extreme negligence but she's still our perfect GODDESS, who you should never question, and everything bad was always everyone else's fault"

Then changeling has always had the whole, fantasy of noble knights and kings versus what they actually did issue, which gives a lot of the book some horrific implications.