Girlschoolâs Anna Bullbrook and Shirley Manson: âWomen are roaring back in a massive wayâ
Shirley Manson and Anna Bullbrook at Girlschool 2017. (Photo: Facebook)
As the third annual Girlschool festival takes place in Los Angeles this weekend, its voices â which this year include Garbageâs Shirley Manson with the Girlschool Choir, Sleater-Kinneyâs Carrie Brownstein in conversation with poet Morgan Parker, Pussy Riot-affiliated rapper Desi Mo, and the Dum Dum Girlsâ Kristin Kontrol â are needed now more than ever. Following a disappointing Grammys, at which few women won any actual awards and Recording Academy president Neil Portnow controversially placed the blame on female artists, telling women they need to âstep upâ â Girlschool provides a sense of community âfor women that donât get the opportunity to be heard on mainstream media outlets and platforms,â Manson tells Yahoo Entertainment. âYou donât hear these voices very much at all in our culture currently. Thatâs what I thinkâs so magical about Girlschool.â
The Girlschool artistic collective was founded by Anna Bullbrook of the Airborne Toxic Event (a classically trained violinist whoâs also played with Kanye West, BeyoncĂ©, Edward Sharpe & the Magnetic Zeros, and Vampire Weekend) to âcelebrate, connect, and lift women-identified artists, leaders, and voices.â Speaking with Yahoo about of this yearâs event in a candid roundtable with Manson (who was last yearâs Girlschool keynote speaker), the conversation gets heavy at times, but Bullbrook canât suppress her giddy excitement over this yearâs Girlschool lineup. âItâs going to be unmissable, and if you miss it, you will probably have FOMO for the rest of your life,â she enthuses. âEverybody deserves a chance to be heard, but also everybodyâs so good, youâre going to want to hear them.â
Read on for Bullbrook and Mansonâs thoughts on gender equality and inclusivity in music, the #TimesUp movement, why the progress women made in the â90s frustratingly stalled, their hopes for the future, and the power of âpositive discrimination.â
Yahoo Entertainment: Shirley, how did you come to be a part of Girlschool?
Shirley Manson: I just really admired what Anna was doing, and I felt it was really vital what she was doing at that particular time. As time has unfolded since we connected, I couldnât be more right. The need for the kind of advocacy that Annaâs doing is more vital than ever. I was really inspired when I met her, and Iâve stalked her on social media ever since, and been blown away by how much she actually does. Weâre all guilty of talking a lot, just saying, âIâm supporting and doing this and doing that,â but Anna has been able to do things for other people, and I really respect that.
Yahoo Entertainment: Anna, why did you decide to start Girlschool? Did your own experience as a musician in a male-dominated field make you want to take action?
Anna Bullbrook: Yes. I think especially in the wake of this [USC] study [about the lack of representation of women in music] that was just released this week, weâve all seen the statistics, which very much confirm my experience â our experiences as the female members of the bands that weâve been in, and coming from the rock space. Itâs a very lonely position to be in. ⊠It wasnât until probably eight years that I started to really notice and miss the company of other women. I had this perspective shifting experience with Rock ânâ Roll Camp for Girls L.A. I was a speaker, and it was the first time Iâve ever been in a space that was 100 percent women-identified people coming together in an intentionally positive way around making music. Iâd never had that experience. After that experience, I was so hungry for more of that. I couldnât unsee what I had seen, and I couldnât exist without it going forward.
Iâm actually really excited that we actually have hard data now that we can point to and say, âThis is a problem, look. Weâre not just making it up. There really is this incredible disparity.â What would music sound like if it were more inclusive? What would happen if all the incredible women producers that I know were actually given a chance to make a record, or someone would take a chance on them with a budget? What would happen if songwriters were women too? What would music sound like? Itâs very exciting to have truth and have facts that we can look at, that we can actually assess where we are, then keep working towards a beautiful, brighter future â look back at the numbers and see if youâve measurably moved the needle.
Manson: Statistics are really depressing. We all know that thatâs not because women arenât great musicians. Thereâs something amiss here. I guess weâre all trying to struggle to figure out why this is the case, whether itâs that women donât have the confidence necessarily to push themselves into the spotlight, or whether theyâve not been given the chance to stand in the spotlight. I think there are multiple reasons why women are not engaged in music in the same way as their male counterparts. That has to change, and I think what Anna is doing, itâs positively trying to change how women view themselves and to give them this confidence and joy â the joy that you get from playing music.
Yahoo Entertainment: The â90s, an era when Garbage came to prominence, is a decade I look back on fondly. At that time, it seemed like the issues weâre discussing now weâre in the process of being erased. So many bands that I like were coed, or all women bands, or female-fronted. Lilith Fair, Alanis Morissette, Riot Grrl, Courtney Love, the Breeders, Liz Phair â the list goes on. Then I feel like everything regressed, or it stopped. Do you have any thoughts as to why that progress didnât continue?
Manson: Iâve been saying this for years now. I think when Sept. 11 occurred, it not only was a horrendous tragedy, but it affected the culture and it affected American radio programming. All of a sudden everybody in the world felt really unsafe in ways that we had never ever felt before. As a result, humanity gets conservative. When humanity feels under attack, when it feels threatened, it gets conservative, and nobody wants a woman with opinions, or an aggressive woman, or a powerful woman, at times when white men are feeling under threat. Itâs oversimplifying it to put it like that, but I do essentially believe that that is what was at play. Like you say, everything was on this amazing trajectory, and then all of a sudden it was like the car turned around and headed back down the road. Itâs never changed direction since. Itâs really rather frightening and really disheartening because when we emerged in the â90s, it really felt like women were piercing through the glass ceiling. In some ways we definitely were, but unfortunately, that change has not continued.
You mentioned Lilith Fair. I didnât want to participate in Lilith Fair. By the time we were invited to go on that tour, I didnât want to do a fully female-oriented festival. It was against everything I believed in. But now I feel like itâs necessary for me to put my weight behind womenâs interests. I feel like that because the times have changed. The climateâs different, and I think itâs a matter of urgency for women to galvanize.
Yahoo Entertainment: That is an interesting point, actually, because there is a mindset that sometime doing things that are solely all about being women, whether itâs Lilith Fair or the She Rocks Awards, or even Girlschool, itâs making women be âother,â putting them off in a little side category.
Bullbrook: Actually, Shirley and I were talking about this. As two women in bands that have had some levels of success, we donât have that many peers. I would say just from my experience being out there in the professional landscape, life got very lonely. So just the experience of seeing so many women-identified people as artists, technical people, and speakers in one place, itâs so exciting. I think that is the intention behind a lot of girlsâ groups: When thereâs a lot of really amazing people together who feel some kind of kinship with each other, that feeling of community feels very enriching. And I think if you do it in a way that is inclusive and includes everybody on the gender spectrum â and that includes men â then youâre creating something really beautiful, exciting, and positive. It involves the whole community. I do agree that if you completely separate yourself, itâs not as effective as it could be.
Manson: I think when I was younger, I guess I didnât believe in âpositive discrimination,â and now as Iâve gotten older, Iâve realized we will never break the mold and the old patriarchy unless we do recognize that women of all colors are not as privileged as men of all colors. There has to be some way that we break that. A lot of people point at positive discrimination and say, âThis isnât cool.â I was guilty of that myself when I was younger. But the political climate is such and the actual statistics are such that I really feel that positive discrimination is the only way we will actually change the course.
Bullbrook: I tend to think this about feminism in general, but I think it has to be inclusive and representative across the board: color, identity, religion, ability. I feel like itâs really incredibly important to make sure that if we want to move forward we do it together, and we do it from a very intentional and considered way. I feel like any effort which just is one group of people, one type of woman, so to speak, misses the point entirely.
Yahoo Entertainment: At Girlschool last year, there was a panel discussion about sexual harassment in the music business. This was well before harassment became the topic of national discussion that is now.
Bullbrook: I think these things go in cycles in the media. I am heartened to see so many people engaging with it, and I hope that in the process of building a big cultural moment actually results in people teaching our children how to be better people, people teaching their children about equality, people teaching their children about consent and what it means to be a good person, no matter what your gender is. I really hope that we see some change from this, but I think to be a woman in the world is to engage with the constant fear of sexual harassment and the fear of sexual assault. ⊠I would love to see a world that feels like Girlschool, where when youâre there, you actually donât have to worry about that for a little while.
Yahoo Entertainment: Sometimes I do worry that #MeToo and #TimesUp will be seen as some âhot new trendâ â meaning, in the media will get tired of reporting about it, or people will be tired of reading about it, just because thereâs been such a media saturation for the last six months or so. I almost fear people will fatigue of these stories and then not take them seriously anymore.
Manson: I feel a little concerned too, that peopleâs ears just start to shut down and get bored and move onto another topic. But I do agree with Anna. I feel like the conversation is being had and it is a really significant cultural moment, and itâs on everybodyâs lips. I think that will affect a generation of men and women â or everyone on the spectrum, letâs say. I think itâs never going to change people who have serious sexual problems. Thereâs always going to be predators out there, and they will prey on anyone. No amount of discussion and no amount of analysis will ever change that; some people are sick in the head, and thatâs just how it goes. But I do think it will give pause to the average [man of] power and privilege that thinks he can just take what he wants, when he wants, without consequence. I do think thatâs one of the greatest things that weâll take from this moment in time.
Above all things, we must encourage people to speak out, and continue to speak out. Itâs about using your voice. If you donât use your voice, youâre eradicated by history. Thatâs just how itâs always been. You must be a witness to your own experience. And at this time when weâre all so busy broadcasting, we really all need to stop and listen, and actually pay attention, and see, and hear, and try, and reeducate our children. A lot of itâs about education. Itâs about teaching people what is right and what is wrong, whatâs appropriate and whatâs not.
Yahoo Entertainment: Do either of you have any stories about how youâve been discriminated against, or just in general treated differently, poorly, because of your gender?
Bullbrook: Â Well, I think the insidious thing about bias is sometimes itâs hard to see it. I think itâs hard to even know when itâs happening to you, because weâre all biased. The sad thing is, everybody is biased against women â including other women. We might just look at two people, two different candidates for something, and think one is just worse for some reason. We donât know why, but one happens to be the woman-identified candidate. It blew my mind when I actually started understanding the idea of bias and looked around. I started to see it everywhere â in myself, in others, in experiences Iâve had. I look backwards with a whole new pair of glasses and can see all of these colors Iâve never seen before.
Iâve had those very obvious experiences where the label executive suggested I wear a see-through skirt in New York City for a photo shoot. This was the head of the label who holds the purse-strings for the marketing budget. Some members of my band were like, âDonât do that. Youâre going to be uncomfortable.â I was like, âReally? You want me to show my butt?â Some of that stuff happens, but I feel like more often than not, because I was with really good people, the way it plays out is much more subtle and hard to notice, unless you actually open your eyes to it. I know Shirleyâs had some other experiences.
Manson: I feel like it happens to women every day, in really subtle ways. As Anna said so rightly, often you can be slow yourself to detect it, to have a clarity about what has happened. Youâre not always aware of that when all the male record execs are commenting on your hairstyle. Itâs only a few years later that Iâm thinking, âWhat the f***? Whatâs my hair got to do with you? You wouldnât be talking about a male artist in this way!â I was an object. I was too young, and too naĂŻve, and too vain to really detect it at the time, but now looking back, Iâm like, âThat was just ridiculous.â More than that, I think in business I have just been completely ignored a lot of the time by male lawyers, and managers, and business managers. Everythingâs directed towards my male counterparts. They would talk to me maybe about what shoes I wanted to wear. It continues to this day.
Yahoo Entertainment: How did you handle that, especially when you were first starting out?
Manson: Iâm very aware that during the very first part of my career, I played submissive dog all the time. I wouldnât come into a work situation and say, âThis hi-hat doesnât sound good to me.â I would fudge the margins and deliberately dumb myself down, use simple language and try not to be threatening. I would never take ownership over any directive. I knew that if I didnât act like a submissive dog, I wouldnât get what I wanted. Men donât have to do that; women continue to have to do that often. Youâll see it in a lot of female execs. Theyâre very fun, and energetic. I feel that thatâs methodology to get what they want, but men can be as grumpy and unpleasant as they wish and nobody has a word to say about it. If a woman acts that way, sheâs a c***, literally. Sheâs a âbossy c***.â
Yahoo Entertainment: Itâs interesting to talk about this stuff, because recent onslaught of media headlines is definitely more focused on the crazy, shocking, violent stories. But these stories youâre telling now are also important. I think itâs important to talk about how incidents that maybe donât seem nearly as dramatic, or traumatic, also take their toll.
Bullbrook: Iâm hoping that Girlschool can create a really warm, engaging, and high-quality story around this incredible talent and create enough of a conduit so that we can start catapulting more artists who are already here. The industry is full of talented women who are working in the music space in some capacity. Letâs start pushing them into opportunities out in the mainstream, and letâs start pushing them and giving them the experience they need to go get a paying job. Letâs create jobs for them, so then they have the experience at a high level where someone finds them undeniable. If you can create this positive and action-oriented space, itâs also just really fun to be a part of. Iâm hopeful about where we can go with things in the future. This is really positive for all of us who are involved in it.
Yahoo Entertainment: I love the idea of community, because you touched on something interesting: women sometimes being biased against other women. I think that is such a shame.
Bullbrook: I feel like, yes, thereâs bias, but it is a myth that women donât support each other. I think when given the opportunity, we do. Itâs magic, itâs incredible. I canât feel anything other than hopeful, because of what I see every day in my personal experience and work. I see too many good things that happen when women come together to believe that weâre not supportive of each other.
Manson: Well, I have to disagree and agree. Iâve been on the receiving end of both situations. Iâve enjoyed phenomenal support from incredible women, and Iâve also seen the panicked, fearful, defensive approach by a lot of other female artists who never, ever seem interested in supporting or speaking out on behalf of another female artist. I think ultimately it speaks of the way our culture is, which is all based on fear of lack of opportunity. For women in general who are getting less opportunity than their white male counterparts, I think they feel if one woman flourishes, automatically all the other women in the room donât. Of course, I donât believe thatâs the case at all, and until women really support the women they see flourishing, weâll never change the lack of opportunities. Similarly, white women have to get the backs of their black sisters and women of color. We all have to start recognizing how can we break down the system that we are currently oppressed under. These are big words and it sounds dramatic â but I think it is quite dramatic, really.
I think, again, it goes back to education. We need to educate our children differently. Weâre still teaching them that girls do housework and boys get to run out and get dirty in the yard. Itâs just crazy that these stereotypes still exist. We have yet to really break that down. I just feel like boys are encouraged to take up room, and girls are encouraged to make themselves small. Boys are encouraged to be loud and boisterous; girls are supposed to be ladylike and quiet. I think all these things are what lead to these weird imbalances in our culture, and it has to change. This is not good for anyone. Yes, particularly in the arts, youâll find pockets of incredibly supportive women collectives and movements, but out in the world at large I donât see a lot of support from women for other women. I see a lot of bitchiness, criticism, judgments, and snickering behind girlsâ backs. I donât know, thatâs just my perception of the world. Iâve worked with men a lot in my career, and men are much more forgiving to themselves and to each other. Women are really unforgiving of themselves and each other. These are sweeping statements, and itâs not by any means a rule of thumb, but thatâs what Iâve witnessed in my life.
Yahoo Entertainment: How do you see whatâs going on musically now â especially as it pertains to women-identified artists âreflecting whatâs going on politically, culturally? And where is that going?
Bullbrook: Iâm just so deep in this festival coming up, and Iâm just excited about what we have around us. Iâm enthralled with how much different talent there is. Iâm excited to see what happens when we get all those different people together under one roof, bringing different audiences together. I feel whatâs happening, especially with people ages 15 to 25 these days, around gender and unboxing these gender types and creating a bit more freedom within everything. I feel so hopeful. I know that history and statistics show that maybe I shouldnât be hopeful, because itâs really hard to make a change, but I have to believe in a better future â because if I didnât, what would I work towards?
Manson: I also feel really optimistic, and I feel that thereâs a whole new wave of really provocative, smart, informed women making music thatâs much more rebellious/provocative than the last 20, 15 years. I feel like thereâs a real upswell from women who have something to say, who are not interested in putting on a leotard and singing pop music. Now, that is a huge shift, because certainly 10 years ago, thatâs all you saw: girls wanting to be pretty. They were all wearing long nails painted glamorously, they were all very ladylike, and they were all singing pop songs either about having a great time in a club, falling in love, having their hearts broken, or being forever young. Things have definitely shifted.
I feel like we have had 20 years of forceful women being pushed back, now the women are roaring back in a massive way. And I do feel that that will then, again, push womenâs rights and womenâs fortunes forward. Letâs face it, I have a better life than my mum did. My mum didnât get to choose what she did for a living. My mum basically would keep house, and get a f***ing allowance from my father. I grew up in a very conservative household, and my granny also didnât have freedom. And neither did her mother before her. I do believe in the concept of evolution really strongly. When I talk to young women now, theyâre way smarter than I ever was. So, I just have to believe that the next generation are going to continue that. Human nature is going to continue to evolve, and everythingâs going to be OK in the end.
Girlschool takes place Feb. 2-4 at the Bootleg Theater in Los Angeles. Click here for tickets and the full lineup.