I don't know whether to call this theory or speculation, so maybe it's a third word? Hypothesis?
I don't know if this is device theory, gaster theory, fiction theory or whatever the fuck theory it is. This is what I think, or rather it's an idea that's come to me, but isn't set in stone yet. A lot of the ideas aren't concrete yet, and this post is messy and all over the place, so I am sorry for that. But here's the gist of it.
There's nothing on the other side of the lake, or at least maybe there isn't supposed to be.
Just like if you were to go out of bounds in some of the earlier chapters, you couldn't see what was on the other side of the lake because there was nothing there.
You can't see past the horizon, because there wasn't meant to be anything past the horizon.
There's nowhere outside of Hometown. There is no college for Asriel to go to. Maybe there isn't even an Asriel, and only the memories of him, same with December. Hell, maybe all December was 'made' for was to incentivise the Idea that somewhere, just out of view, was the place she went.
But the fact is, outside of everything in the game, there is Nothing. Because there is no code for it.
So when the 2 of You decide to go out and push that boundary, decide to see just what is there beyond the horizon? It breaks. There was no accounting for this possibility.
Now what that means for Chapters 6? I'm not sure. Maybe somehow Chapter 6 will also have us being wherever Breaking the simulation leads. But instead of having it happen in Chapter 6, you just. Did it early. You broke the game early...
But maybe that's a good thing?
Maybe this is one way of fulfilling the goal of "Accomplishing that which is impossible"?
If this whole "experiment", "connection", whatever you wanna call it, was conducted by Gaster, then maybe this is a favorable outcome.
You were Determined to push the boundaries, and you manage to spread that "Determination" to a Monster! You did it ! You have shown that it is possible to give Monsters that "Determination"! You won!
And in the grand scheme of things, how much did it truly cost Hometown? The lives of a couple of inanimate objects, and one child. That is all that was lost... and we already know that Hometown is no stranger to Lost Children, don't we?
...But besides all of this. Besides the theories about what this could all be, the purpose it could serve, and why such a thing is possible?
I have to give it to Toby Fox, because this shot, right here?
While Noelle in this segment deserves her own post, Kris here, too, deserves one(which I may make). Because this shot of them, more than any other shot in the game before this, drives home that Kris is not You. Kris is a child. A child whose friend you have driven to this point. A child that had nothing when this story began, and somehow lost everything else they didn't know they had.
They were a child with a best friend they'd lost. And you took their bond, their connection, and warped it into an old, mangled rope that dragged the both of them down into the depths of absurdity and despair.
All for the chance, the wonder at the idea, the possibility, that things could be different. And now, faced with the fact that things will be different. I have to wonder.
Will it be worth it? Could it possibly be worth it?
Deltarune Speculation on December. This started out as a joke post comparing Dess and Laura Palmer, but quickly spiraled into something else, which is... strangely fitting.
Having watched Twin Peaks after Deltarune chapters 3 & 4, it really does kind of change my entire view on Dess and Asriel's places in the story, and how our expectations of them have been sort of tee'd up in a way. And it also made me think about how much people can build a narrative in their own mind.
When it comes to Asriel, people always talk about their experiences with him, whether it's Alvin talking about how he would apologize for Kris' "sins" in their childhood, or Pizzapants talking about how good of friends they were.
And it's a really bittersweet experience because, for us, the last we saw of Asriel was him either sacrificing his existence for monsters in True Pacifist, or getting obliterated in the No Mercy Route. It also makes it seem more and more as if eventually, we'll get to see him and talk to him in Hometown.
The Asriel that we know is the boy who tried to help his sibling fulfill their wish, died for it, and became a Soulless Husk for it. But we still have hope for him being "Good" when he comes back, because that's the "Asriel" that you know, the one that's in your mind, the one that either dropped the facade and begged for mercy in his old voice, or the one that tended to the flowers grown above their siblings corpse.
But then, you get Dess. Or rather, we really do not get Dess.
The December Holiday that is present in your mind, at this moment, is one that has been influenced by one of 3 things:
The Surface Level / The Game - Noelle and Rudy's dialogue, certain items in her room, and overall just the way that the game treats her, like a hole in the lives of the Holiday's and in a way, the Dreemurrs that seems to just suck in everything around it.
Beneath the Surface / The ARG - The clues laying around the Deltarune website, the blogposts from Noelle, her being mentioned in the alarm clock dialogue, and everything around the sweepstakes. And lastly, the dialogue in the source code.
The Splash / Other People - Every piece of Dess fanart, Dess headcanon, Dess shipping, Dess fic writing, etc. etc... Every single attempt from people to try and "Rebuild" Dess from the few pieces we have of her, and filling in spots with their own interpretations. All of those have influenced you, in some way, shape, or form.
All of these things have made people draw several conclusions about Dess, whether it's from how much we have of her in the background, or how little we have of her from the game itself.
She occupies a space akin to that of being the Neighbor of Gaster & The Forgotten Man.
We, and this is a fact, do not Know December Holiday.
We have never seen her. We have never talked to her. We have never fought her. In Undertale and Deltarune, she does not exist in any interactable way.
With Asriel/Flowey, we fought him, knew him, and heard his story. But December is someone we know very little about... but because of the nature of UTDR, and people's desire to know more, we want to know more.
We want to know her, we want to see her, to speak to her... to Find Her.
And I truly do wonder whether or not that will lead to good things.
I truly wonder if December coming back into the story, from wherever she is right now, would really be good for her or for us.
The desire to know more, the desire to take it upon ourselves to "Save" people. In Undertale, this desire lead us to being able to "Save" a lot of characters, including Asriel. To bring him back from the brink of his "God of Hyperdeath" form.
But as has been made abundantly clear in Deltarune, this world does not operate under the same "Rules" as Undertale. Monsters can have "Determination", but is it really the same as ours?
And if we do somehow manage to "Save" Dess, then what would happen?
Undertale was a much more magical world than Deltarune is, so if Asriel did come back somehow(Which he wasn't able to for long), it would not be as ridiculous.
But the world Dess lived in is not the one that currently exists. People have grieved her, mourned her, and moved on. December has been left in the past by almost everyone, and those who try to find her, or find the truth just seem to get pulled deeper and deeper into a pit that they can't find the bottom of.
And we are victims of that too, we try to assign "Truth" to the questions we have about Dess, even though that's not within our abilities. We find pieces from different jigsaw puzzles and apply them to hers, and think that just because the pieces "Fit Together", that they're solved.
But the fact is that the more we keep trying to solve the mystery of December Holiday, the more we will find ourselves being pulled into a pit of falseties, misunderstanding, and disappointment when we find out more. And eventually, we'll find ourselves so immersed in the depths of these falseties, that we'll forget what was real and what wasn't.
(TO BE CLEAR, I am not knocking on or hating on headcanons or the idea of them, I just wanted to point out the parallels between how people in Twin Peaks always talk about Laura as if they knew her even though they didn't, and how it can be said that we're doing the same for Dess even though we don't know her, and it just kinda spiraled from there!)
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This is the only Hazbin-related post I will EVER make on this blog, but I just have to say that I have 2 friends who have been into it ever since the pilot, and have kept up with it ever since then, and they both know it's bad and not worth watching.
But every time I tell them to watch something else (in part because I'm a hater, and because there is genuinely so many better things to watch) they don't even defend it they just say they can't. Like I deadass cannot remember a single argument of theirs besides either "I'm just watching for Alastor" or "I've spent so much time on it."
Hating on it in front of them doesn't even feel funny anymore, it just feels like I'm disrespecting 2 people on the Titanic who were cruise ship enthusiasts that kept up with its creation from the start, and they can't leave because they feel like they'd invested too much into keeping up with its journey, even when they're halfway in the fucking water and sinking.
For clarity's sake, I know this is probably not the case, but if Asgore knows about Kris' possession and does not have a damn good reason for tolerating it, then if we fight him I will be beating the fuck out of him, whether or not that mercy button is broken.
Warning: This post discusses implications of Kris' mental state, and discusses the possibility of them having suicidal and violent thoughts. This is purely speculation, please do not read as much into it as I have if you don't want to or if you are uncomfortable with it.
I feel like when people talk about Kris' mental state, I rarely ever see them use the sequence of events leading up to the Chapter 3 Egg Room which has been fucking rattling in my brain for months
If a Dark World reflects the users thoughts, hopes, and dreams, then it is fucking devastating that Kris' deepest thoughts about themself consist almost entirely of how they've been heading "Nowhere", and how it's better to go there alone.
To me this can be taken in two ways, one is the standard saying of someone going Nowhere in life and dragging others down with them, or one that I worry fits Kris more, which is that they don't intend to exist for much longer, and since they've come to care for Susie and Ralsei, it's better they disappear alone than with them.
When Tenna's influence on Chapter 3's Dark World is peeled back, and we get to see hints of what it was probably like before he was plugged back in,
it really does show the absolute lengths Kris' mind goes to escape from the reality they live in, delving deeper and deeper into realities separate from their own, from the Light into the Dark, and from the Dark, into games, and only when you reach the deepest part of their mind in Mancountry do they actually exist as their "Real"/Lightner self, which is something that never happens ONCE in any other Dark World. To me, this says that it's a place where they truly exist as themselves without the need for any escapism unlike other Lightners in Dark Worlds.
It's only when they see the Man they forgot that they return to anything close to "reality"
It's also important that they keep these parts of themselves far away from Susie and Ralsei, making sure that those 2 never see them do any of the things they do in the secret rooms. Which has especially dire implications when you take into account the last S-Rank Board, which has more of Undertale's DNA in it than maybe any other part of the game, specifically the No Mercy Route
They want to keep any evidence of these thoughts from Susie and Ralsei because of how ashamed they are. To the point where, the only time they try to wrench control from you in this chapter is when you force them to confront the deepest part of these parts of their mind.
Whether the Mantle Holder(I'll be calling them ERAM for clarity) is a manifestation of some part of Kris like some people believe Ralsei to be, or something else entirely, it's clear they know Kris, or at least know enough about them to get under their skin. Kris' thoughts are thrown into their face, that there's some part of them that gets enjoyment out of everything that's happened, that even if they stop, it'll just be the "knife growing dull".
Whether or not it's true, it's clear that it does affect Kris, to the point that Kris does far more damage to Tenna having beaten ERAM,
(credits to u/Correct-Pangolin-568 on reddit for the images)
Part of making this post made me appreciate chapter 3 more, honestly.
The development Susie and Ralsei get through the revelation of how Dark Worlds work seemed to just not have any impact on Kris' character when I first saw the chapter, but it's far clearer to me now that this chapters development for Kris was way more subtle than I thought it was, and much more in-depth than some of the others.
(Also, to clarify, I am not trying to villainize Kris for these thoughts at all, intrusive thoughts permeate the lives of a lot of people, and with how much Kris struggles in their daily life with their own identity as being a human raised by monsters along with their rocky family/personal life, it's totally natural for their mental state to be much more tumultuous than the average person, same with anyone going through extremely hard times)
This was just some bullshit that spread into something more coherent about Kris and Chara so just bear with me please <3
I'm gonna be honest I do not blame people for having Kris and Chara connections be at the forefront of their mind because after that Chapter 1 ending it truly was just seared directly into people's brains.
Like the LAST piece of Undertale that some people might have logically experienced was the Post-Genocide True Pacifist ending
Because truly the order people could have done was like,
I truly do not blame people for suspecting the worse.
Because we truly did not know a single fuckin' thing about this kid, and all of a sudden they had taken control from us in such a way that Frisk NEVER did, and just threw everything into such a spiral, which wasn't helped by Chara literally saying in the Genocide ending that you and them would erase the world and "move on to the next".
And even now after 7 years I truly do not blame people for still just being like
And to be fair, I kinda get it still, because I see people saying stuff like "Kris is entirely separate from Chara" and that we shouldn't draw a parallel between the two but I just think that they're talking about the wrong Chara.
I think Kris could possibly give us more insight into Chara than a lot of Undertale did!
And I mean the real Chara not the Aura-farming "Demon that comes when its name is called" or whatever. That is, in my opinion, the end result of your actions in Genocide, and not the same being.
And even if it is Chara and I'm just wrong, it's still Chara after losing their soul and becoming something else, which as we know DRASTICALLY changes people for the worse (See: Asriel to Flowey)
Like the Chara that Asriel knew as a kid and that one are entirely different, and we barely get any insight into Chara besides the fact that they went up Mt. Ebott, they weren't the best person, and even though they had a loving family with Toriel, Asgore, and Asriel, it still wasn't enough to stop them from being willing to literally take their own life just to free monsters. Now you could take this as due to them hating humanity, wanting to free their family from the underground, or a mixture of both creating a willingness to do so. But the fact is that we didn't have a lot to learn about Chara in base Undertale.
But in Kris, we do have that now! Even if they are a good bit different from Chara, we still have parts of them that line up and let us learn a bit about each of them.
Kris is clearly not comfortable with humans in a way we don't really understand yet. Whether it's hatred is unclear, but they desperately want to distance themselves from their "humanity". Chara did so in a physical manner because they were able to, but since Kris is already immersed in Monster society, they have to just internalize that feeling.
When it comes to their time with the Dreemurrs, we don't know much about Chara's time with them but a lot of it was implied to be good, but still in the end Chara was more than willing to sacrifice themselves for the monsters. Their capacity to indulge in such a self-destructive manner and convince their own brother to take their soul afterwards went completely unnoticed by Toriel and Asgore, which is something that kinda flew under the radar for years for a lot of people until Deltarune.
(DISCLAIMER, I AM NOT SAYING TORIEL IS A HORRIBLE PARENT IN THIS NEXT PART, JUST A KIND OF NEGLECTFUL ONE, PLEASE DONT LUMP ME IN WITH #THOSE PEOPLE)
With Kris, especially after the events of Chapter 4, we see the lengths they're willing to go to in order to protect the people they care about. In the Dark Worlds they often take the initiative in cutscenes to protect their friends, even back in Chapter 1 when King was about to kill Susie
Without our control, from the start they're shown to throw themselves into danger to protect people
Hell in Chapter 4, they went through THREE DIFFERENT DARK FOUNTAINS in order to save Toriel.
Along with that, in the weird route they literally do a marathon across hometown during the period they put us in the bathroom, getting Berdly to the hospital, sneaking into Noelle's place to reassure her, and then getting back home in that span of time.
And the thing is, this heroic streak is never, really, acknowledged?
Like, a lot of people say things about them that make it seem like they don't have much faith in Kris' future. And it isn't just limited to their friends, even Alphys gets in on it
All these little digs make it more and more apparent that, outside of Noelle, people barely try to understand Kris. They changed so drastically over the course of the game and all but one of them just take it at face value and barely question their behavior, including their own family.
It gets to the point that I feel like this informs us about Chara's relationship with the monster community during their time in the Underground.
Their hatred for humanity, and all their actions were just, never acknowledged. Even in the alarm dialogue, which canonically takes place after Undertale, Toriel doesn't even call Chara her child.
And I get it, it's most likely an extremely painful subject for her, but like. To be raised by someone, and then referred to by her as "someone she knew", it's a sort of thing that just reeks of regret and not wanting to acknowledge that part of the past.
Meanwhile, in Deltarune, we see that Toriel, even though she tries, she tries so so hard, just doesn't see a lot of changes in Kris, nor does she seem equipped to handle them.
A foreign entity not from this world possesses her own child, makes them walk around town, talking to everyone in town, asking questions, doing things that they never did before, and all she does is just take it as a good thing and moves on.
Maybe in the future I'll make a proper post about this, just to analyze Kris and Chara's connections and the Dreemurr's invisible dysfunctions as a whole(Tenna dialogue goes crazy for that btw), but I think I'll just leave this post saying that Chara is not Kris. Kris is not a reflection of Chara. I'd say that they're more like a refraction. Going in a different direction, but still with the same source.
Disclaimer: Halfway through when I was writing this post initially, I took a break for a while since I didn't really know what I wanted to do with all the information in it, since I didn't understand the egg rooms in Chapters 3 & 4 Properly. Then I did understand them.
Finally got around to doing the egg room for chapter 3 after missing it and only getting the others and I am so glad I did.
I have lots of thoughts and want to sum them up here, so pardon me if I rehash information, speculate, or just sound outright unintelligible. These won’t just be limited to the Egg Rooms but will involve a good amount of stuff related to them.
There will be many things I discuss, and in the end I will be discussing a theory that I think others have had, but it's been one that's stewing in my brain and I desperately need to get it out.
I feel like out of all the egg rooms, this one and chapter 4’s really gave us a lot to think about in terms of the eggs themselves and their surroundings.
Chapter 3’s being the first ones we’ve seen with other beings is really interesting to me for a number of reasons.
In this room, Kris starts out as if they were not in the Dark World. And it makes sense because they’re not in the Dark World, they’re “Nowhere”. It’s not a place where darkness is deeper than it can be, nor is it the normal world, it is just that, Nowhere. And I think it's possible that whenever it started to become a real, tangible place when Kris visited, that's when it started to creep in, whatever it is that was outside of Nowhere, which is why Kris became their Dark World Form again, because the outside was coming in, the Dark was let inside of a place it wasn't aware of before.
It’s a place for people who are forgotten and “Copies”, such as:
the Rudinn “cards”.
Before anything serious I just love Kris’ thought process of “I suck at cards so I’ll just make my own copies!” These glimpses into their character pre-Us is always so charming to see. But anyways, the Rudinns give us some insight into certain “Rules”, such as those of copies. It’s a slight thing, but they tell us that copies have no color, and the only reason they do is because Kris gave them their color. Now this leads us to something people already probably knew about
The Goners, the characters in Undertale that had no real “place” outside of random chance. The Goners, to me, always seemed as if they were some kind of parodies of certain NPCs such as Monster Kid and The Clam Neighbor. Some of them may not exist in the world people inhabit(depending on FUN value), and some actively replace people who do exist, such as the clam neighbor. I still have no clue what they are meant for, but I do think that Gaster had a hand in their creation, considering the Goner Maker in Chapter 1 and the followers consistently mentioning him.
Everything that's been said about "Copies" takes more of a form when you also look at the pipeline of The Prophecy turning into The Lord of The Hammer turning into Dragon Blazers. Now, there's an entire discussion to be had with Dragon Blazers and Undertale (not Deltarune) and the symbolism of it being a "simplified" and "altered" version of Deltarune the way Dragon Blazers could have been of Lord of The Hammer and so on. But that's for another day. All I want to say is that I think there is a difference being drawn between copies and things that truly had passion put into them, after all:
It makes me think that maybe Gaster's Followers/The Goners could have either been copies of existing people such as Goner Kid(If they even are a copy)
Or some could have been beings that had something drained from them that caused their "color to fade", such as the Clam Girl/"Suzy's" Neighbor
Now then, this brings me to my last point:
The Forgotten Man.
The Forgotten Man, The Man that was behind the tree, is something that's been in the back of my head for years now.
And I think with Chapter 4, it's at least possible to interpret what he means in the context of the Egg Rooms.
In Chapter 3, he talks about how "You"(We'll just assume it's Kris for the sake of this discussion but it could very well be the Player) forgot about him multiple times, and he discusses things such as his schedule (The last part of which I totally think foreshadows Chapter 5's egg room because of Chapter 5 having been intended to be released alongside 3 & 4)
And also, he talks about the Egg. We learn what it is he gives us the egg for.
It's so we remember him.
Which brings me to what I think he means to Kris.
Throughout Chapters 3 & 4 Toby brings to light so many things he'd been foreshadowing with Dess, her disappearance, and what it did to Kris. And that brings us to Chapter 4's Egg Room.
Therapy.
In Chapter 3, when you get the Shadow Mantle, there's an enemy in the dungeon that you don't kill. Kris kills them.
There is no added context in-game for what it is, but in the files, you can see the placeholder for it.
A black deer.
December's disappearance was something that clearly affected Kris a good deal, and it becomes more and more apparent when you think about the things that they've done for "The Knight". They work with the Knight to create the Dark Fountains, but also close them. They do everything in their power to not impede the Knight, but they still want to make Susie and Ralsei happy.
I think that Kris is beholden to something that they promised Dess long ago, maybe around the time she disappeared. I think Kris flinched when they saw the Shelter in the game because they know what's in there. I think the reason they didn't immediately throw the controller out when you got in is because they were relieved. Because they realized that whatever force made the game didn't put what was actually in the shelter in the game.
I think the reason why Kris didn't open the closet even though Susie was gone and they could throw us out, is because they were scared of what they would see in the real world.
I think that Kris killed, or at least indirectly caused Dess' death. Do I think it was intentional? No. I do not think for a second Kris ever would have purposefuly harmed her. I think Kris regrets it. I think they regret it every single second they're awake. And I think, that more than anything else, they try to Forget it.
The Forgotten Man, I think, either represents or parallels the way that Kris constantly represses everything about Dess' disappearance. I think that every time Kris remembers something, they immediately push it down. They keep forgetting...
But we just keep. pushing.
Every time we push to remember, they forget. And every time they forget, the path to reach those memories again gets more and more complex. We went from going into a random room over and over again(With the only thing to remind them of her being an enemy that throws STARS at us), to finding a random room hidden behind a stained glass window with one part of it that resembled an egg.
We just push. and push. and push. And every time we push, the dam gets leakier.
Because at first it was just an egg. Then it was still an egg. But then it was a conversation with a man they want to forget. And then it was a painting that they so desperately wanted to forget about. And next? If the clues are right? We're going to Asgore's Dark World.
And while Tenna only referenced Dess in a manner that implied her being alive? Asgore is heavily implied to have a very, very, personal stake in Dess' disappearance.
I think that the purpose of the eggs is not something tangible that'll be visible in-game or in stats. But rather, I think that they're a sign that we are on the path that leads to Kris finally having to confront whatever it is that they want so badly to forget. And I don't know if it'll have an effect on the game, but I think it'll have an effect on Kris. And whether or not they move on from it, from feeling indebted to a rotting corpse, from feeling like they owe Carol or whoever's manipulating them their service, I think that maybe, juuust maybe, it'll lead us down a path that, while not important to our progress, is important to Kris' progress as a person.
I’m gonna be so fucking fr right now if that golden flower in Asgore’s store gives off even a smidge of Flowey vibes in the Dark World I’m blowin its head smoove off I can NOT take the risk
A flowey analog in Deltarune is something that concerns the hell out of me like what possible being in Deltarune’s original dream state could have inspired toby to make Flowey
