[neptuneistired]

I feel like we're being limited in our empathy and love and ability to engage with the world in our narratives. "I overcame my sensory issues to eat in this restaurant" or "I overcame my shame to flap in public" are both cool but there's so much discussion of how a significantly autistic person could look more normal or accept themselves or go out to eat and there's almost zero discussion of how someone like that could take care of anyone or fulfill any ethical duty that goes farther than "Even if you have a disability, you're still required not to annoy people or make them uncomfortable".

[neptuneistired]

There's no solid ground to stand on when trying to figure out how to interact with people.

[neptuneistired]

Is it like this for everyone in the USA?

[neptuneistired]

I feel like we're being limited in our empathy and love and ability to engage with the world in our narratives. "I overcame my sensory issues to eat in this restaurant" or "I overcame my shame to flap in public" are both cool but there's so much discussion of how a significantly autistic person could look more normal or accept themselves or go out to eat and there's almost zero discussion of how someone like that could take care of anyone or fulfill any ethical duty that goes farther than "Even if you have a disability, you're still required not to annoy people or make them uncomfortable".

[neptuneistired]

There's no solid ground to stand on when trying to figure out how to interact with people.

[neptuneistired]

I feel like we're being limited in our empathy and love and ability to engage with the world in our narratives. "I overcame my sensory issues to eat in this restaurant" or "I overcame my shame to flap in public" are both cool but there's so much discussion of how a significantly autistic person could look more normal or accept themselves or go out to eat and there's almost zero discussion of how someone like that could take care of anyone or fulfill any ethical duty that goes farther than "Even if you have a disability, you're still required not to annoy people or make them uncomfortable".

[neptuneistired]

It is suspicious to me when "I didn't mean to hurt you" is more demonized than "I'm hurting you because you deserve it".

[neptuneistired]

I think the question "Should Neurotypicals be more accepting or should Autistics learn more social skills?" can overshadow the things you are actually noticing or might want to notice, as things tend to do when they are oversimplified

[neptuneistired]

There's someone who is making me think of this. Autistic people often are bad at playing social power games or don't really want to play them because because of our morals- "Why should I do this. It doesn't make sense and is mean. This study says you shouldn't do it and I'd rather talk about rocks anyway" or whatever.

And we often get hurt so much for this. Physically, sexually, in terms of being terrorized, in terms of having people harm our resources and ability to take care of ourselves and other people, harm our relationships, take away what we need in order to understand what's going on, in terms of being made part of reality-twisting bullshit.

And we also see it happen to other people when it's not happening to us. Maybe seeing it happen to someone who is slightly more out of it and less verbal, while also seeing people try to make you more out of it, and thinking if you had assumed the worst of them in the first place you could have have maybe headed them off, but you didn't want to. And we also often learn that you win "precisely nothing" by being really sincere or trying to be morally careful or taking the high ground- You actually win plenty with some people, but there are many many cases where you win nothing and just lose things!

And people will also be so offended if you think it matters that you tried hard to be moral or nice or whatever. It's like saying "I tried to be kind" or "I hurt myself trying to be kind" or "I did some good things" is like saying "I'm amazing and I'm better than you and I never do anything wrong" or something and it makes people soo crazy mad sometimes.

And anyway, once some autistic people learn how to play some social power games, and become willing to do play them, they get so bitey about it.

"Some of what you said seemed-"

"I'M NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR FUCKING FEELINGS."

[neptuneistired]

People keep saying things along the lines of "We need to challenge the stereotype that autistic people are just sweet and kind". There is no stereotype that autistic people are kind

[neptuneistired]

This is very hard to say correctly because autistic children get punished and abused at massively higher rates than neurotypicals, in general.

But some people seem to actually think that "Not getting punished for physically hurting other people" is a disability accommodation that autistic people somehow want.

I think anyone who wants that probably also wants you to accommodate their disability by allowing them to catch a squirrel and keep it in their room because they are probably not very old.

[neptuneistired]

The way that people talk about it legitimately makes my skin crawl.

Yes, "not touching and cornering the person who doesn't want to be touched and cornered" and other common sense things can solve a large amount of autistic-NT conflict, just like not shouting in people's face can prevent NT-NT fights.

But people will conflate autism and violence despite absolutely no evidence that autistic people are more violent than NTs, in general, and lay the groundwork for abuse of autistic people, fear of autistic people, and ostracism of autistic people-

And at the same time, will act like it never occurred to them that autistic people, being human beings, feel guilt and develop awareness and cannot possibly be very happy with a situation in which they can't stop hurting other people even if someone tells them that it's fine and protects them from punishment-

And at the same time, imply that never punishing autistic children is the norm, which is the opposite of true, but makes everyone and their uncle want to personally even that score-

And at the same time, imply that neurotypicals don't need protection, neurotypicals don't respond to their own environments, neurotypicals need less kindness than autistic people somehow-

Managing to un-human not only the autistic kid who threw something, but also all autistic people, and also all neurotypicals, in one fell swoop.

[neptuneistired]

This is very hard to say correctly because autistic children get punished and abused at massively higher rates than neurotypicals, in general.

But some people seem to actually think that "Not getting punished for physically hurting other people" is a disability accommodation that autistic people somehow want.

I think anyone who wants that probably also wants you to accommodate their disability by allowing them to catch a squirrel and keep it in their room because they are probably not very old.

[neptuneistired]

One moment you're eight and you're in trouble for not looking into someone's eyes because that's apparently supposed to be important and you're thinking "Okay, I'm trying to do that, but I don't see why it's such a big thing" and next you're sixteen and you're screaming at your brain to work right so that a kind human won't get scared of you because you looked at her too much and won't think you see her as the dirt on your shoe because you looked at her too little and you're putting every bit of concentration and adrenaline into putting together and recognizing and moving your facial muscles and your social ideas and your vocal cords and your thoughts into words, and at the same time you're about to lose your mind because when they're too nice to you it makes it worse, and when you manage to keep things from falling apart for a while, then when you can no longer keep it together they act more hurt, as if their friend had implied something or had turned out not to like them after all.

And you don't know any ways around this other than frantically recalibrating and trying to figure out what you're "allowed" to do and trying to follow guidelines that will turn out to be bullshit and you cannot accept that it's like this.

[neptuneistired]

Oh, by results of my self harm-

I was always able to hide the results of cutting under clothes, flush bloody toilet paper, that sort of thing, no one had to see my blood. And I read on the internet about someone being very diatressed by seeing someone's bloody tissues, and that's part of why I was careful about it.

But I have had like marks from scratching myself during a meltdown when I was actually not in control for a moment. And then the first time this happened I didn't have concealer, then I immediately got some, but I wasn't great at applying it.

One time I quit my job so people wouldn't have to see my cuts and this resulted in me having I guess survival not quite sex with the same guy who was stealing from me.

[neptuneistired]

I have a question.

Given your definition of abuse, isn’t everything abusive?

“Bumping or brushing”- That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I’ve definitely bumped and brushed into people. I’ve even bumped butts.

Staring. That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I can’t even tell if I’m doing it.

Being “hot and cold” is emotionally abusive. Even if sometimes you can’t find the words, or can’t help freezing, or are too sad and numb and exhausted to text back.

Slamming doors is abusive. It’s intimidating. Even if it’s not intentional. Maybe you propped up the broom uncarefully and someone heard it fall and thought you threw it. Does it really matter if it has the same effect?

Don’t even get me started on meltdowns.

Overdosing is abusive when an abuser does it. I’ve had people see the results of my self harm.

Touching people is harassment if they don’t want it. Women are socialized to say they want it even if they don’t. Just read their cues. It’s obvious.

Avoiding touching people, freezing when people touch you- That can be a symptom of bigotry. Don’t say you don’t think you did something wrong. You’re not the one who gets to decide.

Denying the feelings you obviously have- that’s abusive, it makes people crazy and miserable. What if you don’t have the feelings you obviously have? It still makes people crazy.

Not preventing someone else from being abused, even if you didn’t know how-Being a bystander is pretty similar to being an abuser yourself.

Weaponized weakness is abusive. The definition between this and regular weakness is vague.

Weaponized incompetence is abusive. The definition between this and being unable to do something is unclear.

…

People don’t believe that I could think this way. They don’t think I could believe the things they said, in the way that they said them.

…

Here is what you do if you’re an abuser.

Shut up.

Don’t say, “I’m sorry.” Abusers apologize to keep people with them but it doesn’t make anything better.

Don’t say “I didn’t mean to.” It’s not about your intent.

Don’t explain. An apology is not an explanation.

Don’t defend yourself. People can deal with you the way they want to deal with you. It’s called the consequences of your actions.

Don’t ask questions. It’s not anybody else’s job to teach you how not to be abusive.

Keep educating yourself. Keep reading about this online. Don’t point out when the things you are reading demand impossible things using words that don’t make sense. Don’t point out when the people making the demands seem abusive themselves.

…

Abusers only do kind things to keep people with them. It’s the kindness that makes it worse.

Abusers only say they were abused when they want to hurt other people.

Abusers should not be doing activist work.

Abusers don’t get opinions on what is and isn’t abuse.

…

Abusers should honestly shut themselves up in a small cabin in the woods and leave us alone.

Abusers should have no peace, no rest, should not be happy or safe when so  many people are not.

Love is not abuse. You do not love the people you abuse. You shouldn’t say you do, because that would be lying.

…

It doesn’t matter if you “meant to”.

Certainly don’t cry about it.

…

Don’t. Get. Angry. This. Proves. Our. Point.

[neptuneistired]

[neptuneistired]

This is not only about “call outs” or anything external. This is about internalization.

If you take people in good faith, interpret them literally, and are very worried about hurting people without understanding why, and you’re trying to figure out how to treat people kindly through internet research-

This is a pit fall.

[neptuneistired]

Absorbing PUA teachings, for example, would also be a pit fall.

But I don't think a person who was very worried about hurting people would go to PUA teachings to try to figure out how not to hurt anyone.

[neptuneistired]

I have a question.

Given your definition of abuse, isn’t everything abusive?

“Bumping or brushing”- That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I’ve definitely bumped and brushed into people. I’ve even bumped butts.

Staring. That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I can’t even tell if I’m doing it.

Being “hot and cold” is emotionally abusive. Even if sometimes you can’t find the words, or can’t help freezing, or are too sad and numb and exhausted to text back.

Slamming doors is abusive. It’s intimidating. Even if it’s not intentional. Maybe you propped up the broom uncarefully and someone heard it fall and thought you threw it. Does it really matter if it has the same effect?

Don’t even get me started on meltdowns.

Overdosing is abusive when an abuser does it. I’ve had people see the results of my self harm.

Touching people is harassment if they don’t want it. Women are socialized to say they want it even if they don’t. Just read their cues. It’s obvious.

Avoiding touching people, freezing when people touch you- That can be a symptom of bigotry. Don’t say you don’t think you did something wrong. You’re not the one who gets to decide.

Denying the feelings you obviously have- that’s abusive, it makes people crazy and miserable. What if you don’t have the feelings you obviously have? It still makes people crazy.

Not preventing someone else from being abused, even if you didn’t know how-Being a bystander is pretty similar to being an abuser yourself.

Weaponized weakness is abusive. The definition between this and regular weakness is vague.

Weaponized incompetence is abusive. The definition between this and being unable to do something is unclear.

…

People don’t believe that I could think this way. They don’t think I could believe the things they said, in the way that they said them.

…

Here is what you do if you’re an abuser.

Shut up.

Don’t say, “I’m sorry.” Abusers apologize to keep people with them but it doesn’t make anything better.

Don’t say “I didn’t mean to.” It’s not about your intent.

Don’t explain. An apology is not an explanation.

Don’t defend yourself. People can deal with you the way they want to deal with you. It’s called the consequences of your actions.

Don’t ask questions. It’s not anybody else’s job to teach you how not to be abusive.

Keep educating yourself. Keep reading about this online. Don’t point out when the things you are reading demand impossible things using words that don’t make sense. Don’t point out when the people making the demands seem abusive themselves.

…

Abusers only do kind things to keep people with them. It’s the kindness that makes it worse.

Abusers only say they were abused when they want to hurt other people.

Abusers should not be doing activist work.

Abusers don’t get opinions on what is and isn’t abuse.

…

Abusers should honestly shut themselves up in a small cabin in the woods and leave us alone.

Abusers should have no peace, no rest, should not be happy or safe when so  many people are not.

Love is not abuse. You do not love the people you abuse. You shouldn’t say you do, because that would be lying.

…

It doesn’t matter if you “meant to”.

Certainly don’t cry about it.

…

Don’t. Get. Angry. This. Proves. Our. Point.

[neptuneistired]

[neptuneistired]

This is not only about "call outs" or anything external. This is about internalization.

If you take people in good faith, interpret them literally, and are very worried about hurting people without understanding why, and you're trying to figure out how to treat people kindly through internet research-

This is a pit fall.

[neptuneistired]

If you want to be a kind person, you may find yourself getting entangled with people who are going to give you CPTSD, or make your CPTSD worse.

You are trying to be kind to them.

But CPTSD is a disability that will make it harder for you to be kind. It will make it harder even if you want to. It will make it harder even if kind and unkind acts are morally unchanged by the reasoning behind them.

You are a human and are subject to human influences. You are not immune to propoganda. You are not immune to mental illness.

...

Your instinct about who might be dangerous or want to hurt you is not completely accurate, but it is more accurate than anything else. You need to pay lots of attention to it.

Common CPTSD-causing events- rape, abuse, stalking, murder- are committed, statistically, by people you know.  

There are some people you don't want to know.

...

Getting entangled with someone who gives you Gavin De Becker "Gift Of Fear" type vibes because you want to be kind to them is not a good move if you want to be the kindest person that you can. It's like running a race on an injury, against doctor's orders.

Trying to run that race will make you a worse racer in the future.

Even if you don't believe the future is real for you, try to imagine what the best choice would be in the world where it exists.

[neptuneistired]

I have a question.

Given your definition of abuse, isn’t everything abusive?

“Bumping or brushing”- That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I’ve definitely bumped and brushed into people. I’ve even bumped butts.

Staring. That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I can’t even tell if I’m doing it.

Being “hot and cold” is emotionally abusive. Even if sometimes you can’t find the words, or can’t help freezing, or are too sad and numb and exhausted to text back.

Slamming doors is abusive. It’s intimidating. Even if it’s not intentional. Maybe you propped up the broom uncarefully and someone heard it fall and thought you threw it. Does it really matter if it has the same effect?

Don’t even get me started on meltdowns.

Overdosing is abusive when an abuser does it. I’ve had people see the results of my self harm.

Touching people is harassment if they don’t want it. Women are socialized to say they want it even if they don’t. Just read their cues. It’s obvious.

Avoiding touching people, freezing when people touch you- That can be a symptom of bigotry. Don’t say you don’t think you did something wrong. You’re not the one who gets to decide.

Denying the feelings you obviously have- that’s abusive, it makes people crazy and miserable. What if you don’t have the feelings you obviously have? It still makes people crazy.

Not preventing someone else from being abused, even if you didn’t know how-Being a bystander is pretty similar to being an abuser yourself.

Weaponized weakness is abusive. The definition between this and regular weakness is vague.

Weaponized incompetence is abusive. The definition between this and being unable to do something is unclear.

…

People don’t believe that I could think this way. They don’t think I could believe the things they said, in the way that they said them.

…

Here is what you do if you’re an abuser.

Shut up.

Don’t say, “I’m sorry.” Abusers apologize to keep people with them but it doesn’t make anything better.

Don’t say “I didn’t mean to.” It’s not about your intent.

Don’t explain. An apology is not an explanation.

Don’t defend yourself. People can deal with you the way they want to deal with you. It’s called the consequences of your actions.

Don’t ask questions. It’s not anybody else’s job to teach you how not to be abusive.

Keep educating yourself. Keep reading about this online. Don’t point out when the things you are reading demand impossible things using words that don’t make sense. Don’t point out when the people making the demands seem abusive themselves.

…

Abusers only do kind things to keep people with them. It’s the kindness that makes it worse.

Abusers only say they were abused when they want to hurt other people.

Abusers should not be doing activist work.

Abusers don’t get opinions on what is and isn’t abuse.

…

Abusers should honestly shut themselves up in a small cabin in the woods and leave us alone.

Abusers should have no peace, no rest, should not be happy or safe when so  many people are not.

Love is not abuse. You do not love the people you abuse. You shouldn’t say you do, because that would be lying.

…

It doesn’t matter if you “meant to”.

Certainly don’t cry about it.

…

Don’t. Get. Angry. This. Proves. Our. Point.

[neptuneistired]

[neptuneistired]

This is part of why a version of "social justice" that is based on cruelty and thoughtlessness, and does not care about reality, will, in fact, make you crazy, convince you to hurt people, and ultimately kill you.

[neptuneistired]

I have a question.

Given your definition of abuse, isn’t everything abusive?

“Bumping or brushing”- That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I’ve definitely bumped and brushed into people. I’ve even bumped butts.

Staring. That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I can’t even tell if I’m doing it.

Being “hot and cold” is emotionally abusive. Even if sometimes you can’t find the words, or can’t help freezing, or are too sad and numb and exhausted to text back.

Slamming doors is abusive. It’s intimidating. Even if it’s not intentional. Maybe you propped up the broom uncarefully and someone heard it fall and thought you threw it. Does it really matter if it has the same effect?

Don’t even get me started on meltdowns.

Overdosing is abusive when an abuser does it. I’ve had people see the results of my self harm.

Touching people is harassment if they don’t want it. Women are socialized to say they want it even if they don’t. Just read their cues. It’s obvious.

Avoiding touching people, freezing when people touch you- That can be a symptom of bigotry. Don’t say you don’t think you did something wrong. You’re not the one who gets to decide.

Denying the feelings you obviously have- that’s abusive, it makes people crazy and miserable. What if you don’t have the feelings you obviously have? It still makes people crazy.

Not preventing someone else from being abused, even if you didn’t know how-Being a bystander is pretty similar to being an abuser yourself.

Weaponized weakness is abusive. The definition between this and regular weakness is vague.

Weaponized incompetence is abusive. The definition between this and being unable to do something is unclear.

…

People don’t believe that I could think this way. They don’t think I could believe the things they said, in the way that they said them.

…

Here is what you do if you’re an abuser.

Shut up.

Don’t say, “I’m sorry.” Abusers apologize to keep people with them but it doesn’t make anything better.

Don’t say “I didn’t mean to.” It’s not about your intent.

Don’t explain. An apology is not an explanation.

Don’t defend yourself. People can deal with you the way they want to deal with you. It’s called the consequences of your actions.

Don’t ask questions. It’s not anybody else’s job to teach you how not to be abusive.

Keep educating yourself. Keep reading about this online. Don’t point out when the things you are reading demand impossible things using words that don’t make sense. Don’t point out when the people making the demands seem abusive themselves.

…

Abusers only do kind things to keep people with them. It’s the kindness that makes it worse.

Abusers only say they were abused when they want to hurt other people.

Abusers should not be doing activist work.

Abusers don’t get opinions on what is and isn’t abuse.

…

Abusers should honestly shut themselves up in a small cabin in the woods and leave us alone.

Abusers should have no peace, no rest, should not be happy or safe when so  many people are not.

Love is not abuse. You do not love the people you abuse. You shouldn’t say you do, because that would be lying.

…

It doesn’t matter if you “meant to”.

Certainly don’t cry about it.

…

Don’t. Get. Angry. This. Proves. Our. Point.

[neptuneistired]

[neptuneistired]

@gatheringbones I wrote some horror

[neptuneistired]

I have a question.

Given your definition of abuse, isn’t everything abusive?

“Bumping or brushing”- That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I’ve definitely bumped and brushed into people. I’ve even bumped butts.

Staring. That’s harassment. That’s abusive. I can’t even tell if I’m doing it.

Being “hot and cold” is emotionally abusive. Even if sometimes you can’t find the words, or can’t help freezing, or are too sad and numb and exhausted to text back.

Slamming doors is abusive. It’s intimidating. Even if it’s not intentional. Maybe you propped up the broom uncarefully and someone heard it fall and thought you threw it. Does it really matter if it has the same effect?

Don’t even get me started on meltdowns.

Overdosing is abusive when an abuser does it. I’ve had people see the results of my self harm.

Touching people is harassment if they don’t want it. Women are socialized to say they want it even if they don’t. Just read their cues. It’s obvious.

Avoiding touching people, freezing when people touch you- That can be a symptom of bigotry. Don’t say you don’t think you did something wrong. You’re not the one who gets to decide.

Denying the feelings you obviously have- that’s abusive, it makes people crazy and miserable. What if you don’t have the feelings you obviously have? It still makes people crazy.

Not preventing someone else from being abused, even if you didn’t know how-Being a bystander is pretty similar to being an abuser yourself.

Weaponized weakness is abusive. The definition between this and regular weakness is vague.

Weaponized incompetence is abusive. The definition between this and being unable to do something is unclear.

…

People don’t believe that I could think this way. They don’t think I could believe the things they said, in the way that they said them.

…

Here is what you do if you’re an abuser.

Shut up.

Don’t say, “I’m sorry.” Abusers apologize to keep people with them but it doesn’t make anything better.

Don’t say “I didn’t mean to.” It’s not about your intent.

Don’t explain. An apology is not an explanation.

Don’t defend yourself. People can deal with you the way they want to deal with you. It’s called the consequences of your actions.

Don’t ask questions. It’s not anybody else’s job to teach you how not to be abusive.

Keep educating yourself. Keep reading about this online. Don’t point out when the things you are reading demand impossible things using words that don’t make sense. Don’t point out when the people making the demands seem abusive themselves.

…

Abusers only do kind things to keep people with them. It’s the kindness that makes it worse.

Abusers only say they were abused when they want to hurt other people.

Abusers should not be doing activist work.

Abusers don’t get opinions on what is and isn’t abuse.

…

Abusers should honestly shut themselves up in a small cabin in the woods and leave us alone.

Abusers should have no peace, no rest, should not be happy or safe when so  many people are not.

Love is not abuse. You do not love the people you abuse. You shouldn’t say you do, because that would be lying.

…

It doesn’t matter if you “meant to”.

Certainly don’t cry about it.

…

Don’t. Get. Angry. This. Proves. Our. Point.

[neptuneistired]