FFXV [Major ENDING SPOILERS]Ā What happened to the bros?
Finishing FFXV, I googled for answers to stuff I didnāt get clear, and while I found theĀ āyou can interpret the ending any way you wantā, I found a lot of polemic on whether the guys ALL died or not.Ā
Hereās my reasons to believe they are ALIVE, except, ofc, for Noctis:
Polemic starts when Noctis says goodbye to his friends at the Citadelās stairs: last we see from them as Noct walks up and away is two Iron Giants coming from the floor and the guys turning around and taking out their weapons.
And thatās it: the last we see from them (as in, properly and not in flashback later on).Ā
This, plus them appearing in the very, very last fight (cutscene) against Ardyn inside the Crystal makes some people goĀ āHOLY MOTHER OF TABATA, THEY ALL DIED, FUCKā
Well, not exactly. Letās check it from the beginning:
1.Ā āArdyn killed them at the Throne Room!ā
No, you ass, they appear later on giving you farewell and facing the Iron Giants.
2.Ā āThe Iron Giants completely murdered them. Itās obviousāā
No: theyāve been hunting DAEMONS in a never-ending night land of Eos. They aināt hunting monsters: theyāve been hunting daemons while you were gone.Ā
Talcott tells you the three of them, while mostly not together, have been daemon slayers in the ten year gap you missed on Eos. They survived 10 years of hunting in the dark, and there are daemons WAY much more awful than Iron Giants.
They can fight three Iron Giants pretty well, imo.
3.Ā āOkay, no troubles with the Iron Giants, but we donāt know what came afterwardsā
Did you see the road as Talcott drove you to Hammerhead? IT WAS INFESTED, more than we see in Insomnia. I donāt doubt something else popped up afterwards, but I also donāt doubt they could handle it; if they were hunting around Eos and Hammerhead the way we saw the surroundings, and SURVIVED, Iām pretty sure they could contain other daemons until dawn came, letās say, half an hour later (while Noctisā assimilated the Kingsā power and destroyed Ardyn, and thirty minutes is already a bit too much).
4. āBut when Noctis dies, it means the guys canāt use their weapons anymore. No weapons = they died.ā
It IS true that with no Noctis, the guys canāt summon their weapons, even less use magic.Ā
However, Noctis doesnāt die when the spirit of king Regis kills him with Caelum sword; not entirely. The ring of Lucii takes him inside the Crystal, where he faces Ardyn a last time. And while he did physically die before going in there, his SOUL is still present, and so is his body.
The same happened than when he meets Bahamut: heās taken whole, body and soul, inside the Crystal. Which means, Noctis is ALIVE when he last faces Ardyn, at least in a spiritual way.
Which means = Noctis alive = the bros can use their weapons.
5.Ā āNo, they canāt: he left real world, so even if heās alive inside the Crystal, heās not in the world anymore so they canāt use their weaponsā
I disagree. We go back to the ten year lapse while Noctis was gone.
He was not in Eos or Accordo or Niflheim anymore; he was not in the world. He was INSIDE the Crystal.Ā
And the bros didnāt lost their weapons
6.Ā āHow can you tell? We donāt see what they did in the 10 years lapseā
But we DO see them immediately after Noctisā swallowed by the Crystal, when they pursue Ardyn in front of it: apparently he lets them know Noctis is gone, and the bros react by attacking him.
WITH THEIR WEAPONS.
They never see even a glimpse of Noctis; when they arrive, only Ardynās there. Which means Noctis was already entirely swallowed by the Crystal.
If the guys could pull their weapons out in that moment, it means that it doesnāt matter whether Noctis is alive in this world or inside the Crystal; as long as heās alive ANYWHERE, their weapons work.
That brings us back to the moment of farewell in the Citadel.Ā
Yes, you leave them and go inside the Crystal while they face an Insomnia full of daemons. But if we put together the fact that they hunted daemons for 10 years and the fact that even if Noctis is inside the Crystal they CAN pull their weapons out, I see no major trouble on them surviving for some minutes while Noctis completes the ritual kind of thing to destroy Ardyn.
If they hunted for 10 years each on their own, fucking imagine them as a team, even with Noctis missing.
7.Ā āBut what if they could pull it out because the Crystal had JUST swallowed Noctis, then back at Eos they couldnāt until he came back?ā
Itād make no sense for one reason: Ignis.Ā
I believe the guys were able to use their weapons after Noctis goes missing not only because of the immediate moment they face Ardyn, but also because of a detail they never explain or point out at all but could give you info if you look into it.
After Ignis goes blind, his fighting abilities are almost useless. When Noctis returns to Eos 10 years later, Talcott tells him that the guys, Ignis included, have been hunting daemons: that while they tried to make Ignis not risk himself, heād of go on saying nobody knew the dark better than he did.
He no longer uses a cane, can cook again, hell, I think heās even FASTER and way more agile than he used to be (100 points to Ignis).
BUT
His combat method CHANGED.
Unless you didnāt pay attention Ā because it was so exciting seeing the whole gang together again (which I understand), Ignis doesnāt fight like he used to, and I donāt mean it as inĀ āhe got worse/betterā but as in his technique changed.
He still wields daggers, but uses them in a different way; instead of getting close and attacking while mostly protecting you (if you didnāt notice he was way much more of a bodyguard to Noct than Gladio in the whole game, it means youāre probably blind too or just not interested in Ignis), he chose and developed a technique of distance.
He gets some feet away of the enemy, throws one of the daggers at the time he summons the other in his other hand, to throw it immediately after the first one, and as he throws the second one, he summons back the first one after it has hit the enemy, and so on and on.
While he does attack at a close range, this distance-dagger-throwing technique is new to him.
But what does his new technique have to do with the guys being able to use their weapons while Noctis spent the while in the Crystal?
The fact that Ignis MASTERS the technique.Ā
If he masters it, thatās because itās not his first time using it. Which means heās been practicing and using it for a very long while by now. So does that mean he could summon his daggers not needing of Noctisā presence? Yes. Couldnāt he master the technique using average daggers like a normal hunter? No.
No, because his technique is not just throwing dagger after dagger; itās throwing a dagger and then call the same one back into his hand.
So yes, this gives me reasons to believe they could call their weapons forth, and makes the idea of the guys being able to use their weapons while Noctis is in the Crystal facing Ardyn to protect themselves until dawn comes stronger.Ā
8. āOkay, but thing is, when Regiās spirit kills Noctis, heās not inside the Crystal: heās in the afterlife. Thatās why he sees Ardyn againā
HAVE YOU PAID ATTENTION TO ANYTHING ELSE THAN THE CHARACTERS?
Letās take a look at the backgrounds in these two moments:
Itās the VERY SAME background.
Which means this is NOT the afterlife; this is INSIDE the Crystal. Which means Noctis is NOT dead just yet; the real moment he dies is inside the Crystal, after he defeats Ardyn, and we see him shattering in pieces along the Ring. THATāS when he dies, when heās seen nowhere.
9.Ā āOkay, and now that he really does die, THEN the bros canāt use their weapons anymore, so they deadāĀ
Noctis dying DOES stop the guys from making their weapons appear, but it ALSO brings dawn with him. Dawn = daemons gone. At the very first glimpse of light, the daemons leave; it happens gameplay. Itās not even day, itās 4 a.m. with vague light and daemons just leave; so yes, while their weapons do disappear, so do the daemons with daylight.
10.Ā āBUT THE GUYS APPEAR IN THE CRYSTAL; IF ARDYN AND NOCTIS BOTH DIED AND GOT THERE, AND SO DID THE GUYS, IT MEANS THEY DIEDā
NO, PLS, LISTEN.
There are two main things to fight this back:Ā
A) They were not there (not exactly).
B) An alive person can make it into the Crystal.
Letās check A:
We do see the bros there along Regis, who IS dead, and Luna also appears, and sheās dead as well. But the important thing is not WHAT we see but HOW we see it.
Ardyn greets us in his sassy way, but his smileās gone and he gets nervous when he looks up at us; the reason, the three bros and king Regis are standing there with you. Then the camera angle changes and theyāre not there anymore; Ardyn desperately looks away and shakes his head, then looks back at us and the guys are not there anymore, so he smiles.Ā
It was pretty obvious to me, but this one scene seemed like one of the main reasons for people to think they had died.
Itās clear that the bros are not really there; theyāre in Ardynās head.
The guys were there when Loqi attacked, they were there when Ardyn took you to Titan, they were there at Altissia, they were there when EVERYTHING, even after you were gone: theyāve been so, so loyal to you and have literally never left your side for so long, that Ardyn can SEE them there even when theyāre not.
He KNOWS them by your side.Ā
Letās be honest: if the guys had died and gone there to help Noct in the final hit, theyād have done something else than just stand there for a few moments. I think that if the intention had been for them to die then accompany Noctis inside the Crystal and help him finish with Ardyn, thereād have been more of them, just for the FFXV staff to make us suffer more by seeing them shatter in pieces after their dutyās done, just like we see with Noct.
From the way the camera changes, itās pretty clear the guys are there from Ardynās P.O.V., not in a reality.
Sheās there but ONLY for Ardyn.
āBut she touched him and he reactedā
BUT DO YOU SEE WHERE SHEāS TOUCHING HIM?
When Ardyn stabbed her, she gripped his arm the exact same way then she does in this scene, and his body reacted the same.Ā
Perhaps this is not Luna literally appearing and doing it again; this is the result of first time she did it back in Accordo.
When she first did it back then, she told him that āwhen the prophecy is fulfilled, all in thrall of darkness shall know peaceā, as Ardynās arm glowed under her touch.
My view on this is that she somehowĀ āmarkedā him, to put it some way, but the real reaction was here, when (surprise) THE PROPHECY IS FULFILLED.
Lunaās touch in Accordo was a mark that only worked, as she said, when the propechyād of happen; this is the moment. Thatās why Ardynās arm, the same Luna touched back in Accordo, glows again: itās from the first time Luna touched him, not her appearing again to touch him again.
I believe that the fact that sheās seen only by Ardyn (for what camerasā angles suggest, as she, like the bros, disappears in a camera change) is some way of saying that when his arm starts to glow, he inevitably remembers Luna and her promise in Accordo; him remembering her words and trying to shake her off him like sheās a spider, because she DID tell him itād happen one day but he hadnāt remembered until his moment came.
In case A didnāt convince you (which may mean youāre just not reading), then we have B anyway.
First time Noctis goes into the Crystal, like explained above, heās alive. So it is NOT necessary for a person to be dead and stand there.Ā
Meaning = while I donāt think the guys were physically there but more in a metaphorical/spiritual way, if they were, it doesnāt NECESSARILY mean theyāre dead.
11.Ā āOkay, but when dawn comes, we donāt see the guys, just Umbra. Means theyāre dead, right?ā
While we donāt see the guys, I think theyāre alive in this dawn exactly because of how we see Umbra.
Heās peacefully resting in what, due to the background, we can say is the bottom of the stairs to the Citadel.Ā
When Noctis gave farewell to his friends, they stay behind to stop any daemons from going into the Citadel and bother Noctās ritual.Ā
Umbra thrown here means everything is and HAS BEEN relatively peaceful for a while, even if just some minutes. If everythingās peaceful, thatās because nothing made it into the Citadel until dawn came.
Nothing made it in because the bros defeated all daemons coming close until they left with sunlight.Ā
12.Ā āWhat if they died protecting the Citadel at the very last moment, and the daemon that killed them was just making it upstairs when dawn came and it died too?ā
Nah man, because weād see their corpses in THIS scene that shows us precisely the entrance of Citadel, the place we last saw them. Unlike Noctis or the past kings of Lucis, normal people leave corpses behind; they donāt magically shatter like the Lucis Caelum.Ā
13.Ā āThen wtf arenāt they there with Umbra?ā
My guess is that they went inside Citadel as soon as dawn arrived. Either that or they went outside to watch Insomnia awaken, but I stand with them going inside Citadel, Umbra staying behind.
We can hear bells echoing through Insomnia in this scene; a theory could be what with the guys indeed making it into the Citadel and making them ring to announce day has arrived, though I do think the bells are just part of the following scene, the afterlife-wedding of Luna and Noctis.
14.Ā āWhat about the last camping scene?ā
This was a very polemic thread when I was googling: thereās a theory that, despite not into the idea of them dying, I really, really like, that says that the Last Camping scene is actually the four of them in the afterlife.
It makes sense what with the dialogue shared. Noctis says he canāt stand watching them there with him now that heās made his peace, and breaks down in tears. All the guys seem down in the dumps, and then Noctis tells them theyāre the best.
To reinforce this theory, they go with the fact that Noctis is NOT wearing the Ring of the Lucii: not wearing it means itās already been destroyed, which only happens after Noctis himself dies. So if thatās the case, they all must be dead.
āTake dat, how ya gonna bring this theory down, huh!?ā
In the scene they finally enter Insomnia, Noctis PUTS THE RING ON. Which by logic means he was not wearing it.Ā
The fact that he was not wearing it before can easily pull that previous dead-camping theory: at some point of the last camping, Noctis must of have had taken it off, for whatever reason (even if just comfort, even though Iād go with him not standing to have it on as a reminder that heās finally king and that heās going to die next day; as he said it himself, having the bros with him is too much for him to bare alone with; now wearing the king clothing AND the ringā¦gosh, Iād have taken it off too)
15.Ā āBut what about the dialogueĀ āIāve made my peaceā? If heās made it, it means he finished his duty, which was basically to die. It must mean that this one camping is not the Last one but an Afterlife one, right?ā
No. My reasons to say no are based on one detail: the dub and sub.Ā
My mother language is spanish; however, there was no dub for spanish, just sub. For english, there WAS dubbing.
However, the dubbing process, in any language, must go hand in hand with lip-syn; canāt do a literal translation sometimes because the spoken words would not fit in with the characterās lipsā movements, which forces the dubbing companies to adjust it the best it can be put without changing too dramatically the context.
As there was no spanish dub, the literal translation is no troubles for the sub; they can write stuff in a way thatās more accurate to the original dialogue than it is for english, just for the mere fact of the game lacking spanish voice acting.Ā
That way, for example, we take that one scene where Ignis says heās aware he may never recover eyesight, and Gladio and Prompto start arguing.
For the sake of words fitting lip sync, the enligsh version goes with Gladio sayingĀ āIām sorry, but I object: war is a matter of life and deathā.
However, the spanish sub (free of caring about lip sync) goes withĀ āIām sorry, but no: youād be dead if we have to fightā.Ā
Same goes later, with Gladio yellingĀ āThereās more to it than what he wants!āĀ
Spanish goes withĀ āThis affects us all!ā
In context, itās all the same idea, but the words are different, again, due to lip sync motifs in the english version.
That said, we go back to the camping scene: people assume Noctis means he completed his duty and is sad that he took his friends to death, what with him sayingĀ āIāve made my peaceā.
Spanish goes forĀ āI know what awaits for meā, in some way of sayingĀ āI know whatās coming nextā.Ā
Canāt come next if itās already happened.
16. Another thing about me not believing the post credits camping scene happens in an afterlife is another detail: Noctisā beard.
Itās grown in this scene (like it was when Talcott found him and the way it remains during the last chapter), but it is NOT when heās with Lunafreya at the end.Ā
It IS clear that the scene with Lunafreya is their happily ever after IN AN AFTERLIFE; the lighting suggest an aura of a spiritual vision, while it remains obvious that they meet in an afterlife seen as both die in the story.Ā
Why is Noctis lacking beard in the afterlife?Ā
Iām guessing that the afterlife pleases the personās spirit wishes; one goes to afterlife the way they wanted to look like when alive.Ā
What both Noctis and Luna wanted the most was to get married; thatās why Lunaās wearing her wedding dress despite her having died in another clothing, and so why Noctisā dressed for the wedding tooā¦and, of course, shaved.
What I want to say is that while I like the theory of the last camping being an afterlife, I dare to say they wouldnāt look soĀ ārealā as in, itās afterlife, theyād look better than they did when alive, just like Noctis and Luna. Idk, Ignis wouldnāt have his scar, for example, for afterlife-him to be fully content with himself, just like wedding-dress Luna and shaved-Noctis.
17. The dialogues between the bros.
Along the last chapter, there are some dialogues that presume the bros do not die in the end. Letās check them:
A)Ā āCan you sense light?ā
Walking through Insomnia, during gameplay rather than a cutscene, Noctis asks Ignis if he can sense light, at which Ignis replies Yes. Noctis tells him that thatās good, so that he can sense when dawn comes.
You could argue with me that he could have said that to keep the teamās optimism upā¦but, letās be frank: the guys wouldnāt do that.Ā
No matter how bouncy and happy and supportive they are with each other, over all things Ā (at least on second place next to Loyalty) what makes them a team is their HONESTY. No matter how cruel the situation gets, they inform and face each other with the whole truth.
āLuna has passedā
āThereās more to it than what he wantsā
āMy vision hasnāt improved and it probably wonātā
āIām tired of your whiningā
Hell, even Prompto told them he was an MT and didnāt expect them to stay with him. PROMPTO, the one thatād probably sugarcoat the truth, didnāt. They didnāt go with fakeĀ āNah, man, sure thereās a chance youāll get out of this alive! Then weāll go for an ice-cream to celebrate the king!ā.Ā
No: they knew it was the end and didnāt hide it or tried to fake happiness:Ā āSo this is farewellā,Ā āThereās no turning backā,Ā āGodspeed and take careā. They didnāt try to make him smile; they were true the WHOLE time.
Noctis, mature now, wouldnāt go cheering them on watching the new dawn if he knew they didnāt have a chance of surviving.
B:Ā āWalk tall, my friendsā
This one is so heartbreaking because of the explanation in here:
Itās clear Noctis took this one phrase from his dad when the journey started.Ā
At first it could be seen just as a dad saying goodbye to the heir to the throne, but itās so much more than that
King Regis KNEW it was the last time he saw Noctis. He knew it ALL: he knew Niflheim was going to attack Insomnia during the reunion, and thatās why he sent Noct and co away before it was to take place.Ā
Like said in the game by Noctis himself, King Regis sent them away of home so they could GO BACK home one day.
King Regis knew itād be a difficult journey, but he knew more than that: he knew it was last time he saw his son, and he knew that he was seeing him a last time before going back into the Citadel to die, but leaving a hope for the world safe and away of danger.
Noctis sees what heās doing like the exact same than his dad did: giving farewell a last time to his beloved ones to go into the Citadel and sacrifice himself for the sake of them (and all of Eos people, in both cases).Ā
That phrase, those two words, mean more than just that: Walk Tall becomes a symbol, it becomes the concept of the King of Lucis becoming aware that he must die in order to keep his beloved ones safe and sound.
Hell, it happens in the same place. This is heartbreaking.
c:Ā āGodspeed. And take careā.
The thing with this one is WHO says it.
No matter if Prompto is the best friend or if Gladio is the Kingās Shield: thereās NO ONE more loyal to Noctis than Ignis. Literally NOBODY.Ā
Ignis has served Noctis for a lifetime: when they were kids (read Parting Ways for this one), sometimes Noctis would sneak out of the Citadel, and Ignis would follow not because he wanted to play with him but because he worried that anything could happen to him, and took the blame for Noct when they were busted.Ā
Even when heās only 2 years older, heād go pick Noct from school (watch Brotherhood).
In gameplay, he literally NEVER left Noctisā side in battles; sometimes all monsters would be in a place and a few left behind, and if I went to attack one that was away, Ignis would follow; if I changed target, heād go. If I walked away for no reason, heād go. He was literally my shield, hell much more than Gladio himself.
There are small dialogues during battle that reinforces this detail (N: Can you cover my back? I: Never doubt it), not to recall heās usually who screams forĀ āNOCT!!!ā the most when a monster catches you (he may even feel like exaggerating).Ā
Ignis is ALWAYS trying to protect you from EVERYTHING: do not drive at night, itās dangerous; pay attention and protect yourself; hell, he and Prompto were lost in Cauthess with an angered Titan nearby, but he still took his time to phone you and warn you about Imperial troops arriving.
Not to say about his loyalty staying intact when he goes blind: the chapter in spanish is literally namedĀ āBlind loyaltyā. He KNEW he could die any second in his condition but decided to stick by your side nonetheless, because he KNOWS Noctis needs of him, even if he says not.
And after you go missing and he decides to hunt, isnāt it strange?
Thereāre hundreds of hunters out there. He had literally no reason to become one and master the technique of blind fighting. Thing is, he did because he wanted to be of use again when youād come back, because he KNEW you were coming backĀ
He could have left it to Gladio and Prompto and a grown, much hella more powerful Noctis, but he decided, he CHOSE to stick by Noctisā side because he WANTED to stand by him.
He never let Noctis go aloneā¦untilā¦
He never says goodbye and never lets him go alone, not even after GOING BLIND, not even after being taken into the Crystalā¦
So the fact that IGNIS, the guy who did all of listed above, finally says farewellā¦.
I strongly believe that if they were to die, Ignis would not have said goodbye, because if they were to die, theyād of reunite with Noctis (like he did with Lunafreya). Whether itās a literal reunion or not, Ignis would follow Noctis to the very afterlife if he had to, so there would be no need for goodbye.
So the fact that Ignis, the most loyal person to Noctis, always by his side like heās a third arm, always there no matter the situation, finally says goodbye for the very first time in his lifeā¦.
Iām not sure whether Iāve left something unsaid or if I forgot to write down another thing, but Iāll leave it here.
This is what Iāve got so far to believe the bros didnāt die like some people say they do.Ā
However, like most games, itās free for anyone to interpret it the way they want. This is mine
Though, I must say, the fact that they donāt die, even if slightly less depressing than them dying, is not entirely a happy ending anyway. If anything, itās just to make the three sad for the rest of their lives, in a bittersweet way, what with losing their lifetime best friend in exchange of saving the world from eternal darkness.
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