#alicent's characterization

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The randomness of Alicole suddenly having nonstop sex makes sense when you remember these writers want to put a stop to Rhaenicent.

They were all for queerbaiting but there was no way in hell they were actually going to make any of their leads queer even if George's books suggest Rhaenyra's bisexuality.

So the very first scene of Alicent is her getting eaten out by Cole, just to remind the audience she's straight and is sexually attracted to man not her stepdaughter.

This has less to do with "is this realistic for the characters?" and more "will this put an end to fan specualtion about the character's sexuality?".

Never considered this. Could be both simultaneously: to make Alicent is straight thing obvious by the frequency of alicole's sex AND the existence of the ship itself becoming HotD canon bc of Alicent given something more to do. But you make great points, anon.

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Team green is so funny rn they just realised that they hate that friendship because it hurt Alicent character but they like season 1 Alicent because she just innocent girl and it benefits them menwhile in season 1 rhaenyra fans had to suffer seeing her stepmother became her friend

Can u imagine they change Cersei making her same age as Sansa? And become her friend not only that they change the timeline to fit this storyline, they also give rhaenyra ticks to this woman, give her the dress moment, and rhaenyra is the one who had to be masculine, Alicent losing her mother when she is child?, making her a childbride while she in canon the main character who married at 18 older compared to Viserys, Rhaenyra, Rhaenys and Daemon euww idk what happen to this show but theres something wrong with this character that they really force people on their throat and ruined the actual story.

Show!Alicent is a character who steal everything from book!Rhaenyra just to make people like her and other character had to suffer for it and they mess up the timeline because of this character they aging up Haelaena's twin in span weeks for fuck sake they dont even know what year in that timeline

That friendship story only benefits Alicent character but now they taste their own medicine

Ryan Condal even proudly saying he is the captain of this ship in his podcast we are doom

At least it's over...FOR NOW! *dun dun dun*

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This is where I think narrative gets twisted because Alicent is supposed to be this victim with no agency. The true of the matter is Alicent has as much agency if not more than Rhaenrya. The problem is she does not weld it in a way that makes her life better she is using to make Rhaenrya worse. Let’s get this straight, she has seen the way Rhaenrya uses her power to find happiness in her family. Alicent instead of doing the same go on continuous path leaning into the systems that are making her unhappy then blaming Rhaenyra for her unhappiness.

Can't find the post this ask is probs referring to, so I'm winging it.

Part of Alicent's problem is that she can't actually do the exact same thing Rhaenyra is doing to foster a loving family bc she has no refuge away from Otto and even from Viserys nor has authority over Viserys. As well as her upbringing under Otto and the Faith and developing an identity with both of these things as the ultimate authority on earth, and I mean the lost intimate kind of "authority". (And of course, she is in a society as one that's simply very competitive between claimants of resources) Particularly what we can clean from the show. She still has issues practicing agency and power under all those locks as much as other queens. The show however, goes overboard and makes it a lot easier for us to lol askance at Rhaenyra for not having (or actively trying to find compromise and not totally losing her self) a psychological response to those pressures that they amped up for Alicent, all for making her much more sympathetic. Let women have reasonable arcs of self-advancement in lieu of societal limits please and thank you, HotD.

But enough with the summaries. How does Alicent have critical differences in how she can make her own happiness? Like I said, she has no place of refuge like Dragonstone and her husband has authority over her, rather than Rhaenyra having (even if nominal) over Laenor. She also, yes, has no personal symbol or material device for power and agency like a dragon that Rhaenyra does to (mentally) explore her avenues of escape nor a magical connection that transcends political limitations that could act as a sort of psychological refuge. She is not a mother to an heir despite being queen as Rhaenyra technically is. Her grandfather, while part of her source for power or line of persuasion over Viserys-- since Viserys has always valued keeping up at least the appearance of a gracious king who listens to his councillors and respects the power of Oldtown/the Faith for his own family's sake, what with the history there--Otto is also someone who'd and we saw have a strong influence over how she'd raise her kids since he married her off to Viserys in the first place to get those heirs and he has his own independent position in the council. They actually have a weird dependence on each other bc he does become more powerful with her as Queen and mother to the kings sons--yes when it comes to influencing Viserys and practicing power over the court. But Otto at least has his own "thing" at court and at large. A critical element to how Rhaenyra was able to be as content as she was with Harwin and Daemon in the book/Daemon in the show was that she had her own place and with Daemon a husband with a competitive position. Rhaenyra's own resilience and will was companion and stimulant to that.

Mind you, it's not IMPOSSIBLE for Alicent to foster a court and siblings who are against Rhaenyra, but I wanted to be fair.

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Alicent is such a pussy ass bitch, “the beacon burns green when House Hightower calls their banner to war,” she wore a green dress to Rhaenyra’s wedding to signal her allegiance to her house over her husband’s and as a call to arms, and since then, she wore GREEN EVERYDAY, but now that the war that she’s been instigating for 16 years pops off, she suddenly wants to wear blue, fuck off to the forest, and pretend like it’s not what she wanted. I truly can’t stand her mosquitamuerta ass.

"mosquitamuerta" -- I searched it up, means someone who 's doing something shady but makes themselves look innocent and not responsible for it.

Yeah, that's my other issue with Alicent. I have said several times how the green dress moment made no sense for several reasons[twitter, this one more about how she would never have chosen that particular dress], Alicent of episodes 6-7 show a "warring" Alicent. It's not just that she would never choose to wear that dress and not for the color, but it's that the writers nullified Alicent's whole arc of her becoming a true direct and rounded threat towards the blacks when we get to the 8th episode.

Or maybe they were forced to nullify it and make nothing of it after episode 7 bc they erroneously positioned the conservative "rebel". Or that it inevitably fell apart.

There is a huge difference b/t bk!Rhaenyra wearing her black dress in clear, broadcasted self-affirming defiance to the woman who is trying to get her removed from her position using her gender against her VS show!Alicent "rebelling" because Rhaenyra refused to endanger herself and tell the truth about her, Cole, & Daemon. Rhaenyra was not complying to those sexist calls made by both fans AND those who had to have been at court & went closer to the queen's party for her to just give up. This is itself a knock against patriarchy.

Whereas with show!Alicent--though yes she is clearly trying to convey she won't try to fit herself into the Targaryen family, work for the royal family's interests more, make herself more "Targ"--it is also true that she ends up still trying to genuinely [key word] trying to make Viserys comfortable, make herself his perfect wife, follow what she thinks was his wishes (and I'm talking about before he died and after episode 5), etc.. She, unlike red-black-dress-bk!Rhaenyra, is still sincerely trying to abide by the patriarchal feudal status quo's principles of wifely obedience/solicitation to punch down on Rhaenyra, the "rebel". Thus, yeah, Alicent's green dress moment just transitions into the downward spiral she vaults herself on.

It would have made way more sense for Alicent to confront Otto, the person who actually ruined her life by pimping her out to Viserys. No, she is in a repressed delusion and probably would never, but that's exactly my point--this moment is supposed to be a clarifying moment where we the viewer/reader see who has been the victim, who the harasser, who the protagonist, who the antagonist, who the beleaguered, who the harasser. Giving that to the woman who will unfairly abuse Rhaenyra for basically not complying with an abusive system as perfectly as she should is self defeating, opposite of what this story is about, and discourages female self assertion through a distortion and using a token woman to do that job for you. Look, it's a woman doing this, and a terribly abused woman, too, she has to be right! Rhaenyra is the one who should have "done her duty" and not lie to Alicent! Meanwhile, Alicent's father is trying to get Rhaenyra removed and Alicent, back in episode 3, did not tell Rhaenyra that Otto is basically forcing her to visit Viserys and become his wife. No, Alicent was telling her to not mind the political plots of the men, or mind men's business when Rhaenyra is heir (and must concern herself w/politics!) AND Otto is one of those Rhaenyra has to watch out for but Alicent is actively preventing her from doing so!! And not even purposefully, which does not make her impressive, but sad. Which isn't fun and a total downgrade from her orig self.

...Plus, Rhaenyra of the show didn't even understand wtf Alicent was doing with the green dress bc on her end she still thinks Alicent doesn't know bc Alicent has not let anyone know what Cole said to her...by contrast, it is likely that bk!Alicent understood Rhaenyra's message in her wearing the black dress at her anniversary.

That moment of episode 5 was peak gaslighting, male gaze, & manipulation.

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What about the fact that Alicent foisted this “duty” upon her sons and at a times it was done out of her own pride and ambition. Will we deny that that she wanted to rule through Aegon ? She craved power herself. Or when Aegon and Rhaenyra made it clear to her that Viserys did not want him to be king ? She still ignored them all out of pride. All of this is ignoring her own hand in all of this and now she’s running away from the consequences of her own actions. Makes no sense to me at all.

“All the evil men around me are at fault for all my terrible wrongdoings. I have no agency. Now I’m going to throw them all and my entire family under the bus and run away from the consequences of my actions.”

Is it growth to sacrifice Aegon to absolve herself of something she forced him to do ? What sort of growth is this ? Come on. This is the sort of “growth” that abusive people do when they see a therapist and use therapy speak at you.

This be free stuff is so vague and senseless. All they speak of is having no agency (which isn’t the fact by the way). It’s the gods or “fate” fault. If not them then the men in their life. That is not growth. In the real world, anyone who makes terrible, harmful decisions then decides to be “free” or themselves after not taking responsibility is a selfish narcissist. No one would call that growth.

Except people like this person very much would (yes I am that "petty") call that "growth" and even try to say that Alicent's desperation to achieve that peace makes Rhaenyra's insistence on Aegon & Aemond's deaths as not things Alicent denies she must allow for that peace to occur but Rhaenyra forcing her to commit filicide or something!

They will even skip over the fact that Alicent having a major role on the war's beginning to say that her search for peace is proof of her repentance and deserving to have her way and protect her sons.

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One of the worst quotes of Alicent is, “Mayhaps the whore will die in childbirth” about Rhaenyra. People often quote it as fact, but that’s funny because Alicent didn’t say that. The quote actually comes from Mushroom, one of Rhaenyra’s supporters, who, apart from being a famed liar, was with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone at the time. I’m just confused about why people claim Alicent said that to Rhaenyra?

"Mayhaps the whore will die in childbirth," Queen Alicent is reported to have said (according to Mushroom).

@guiboob

It's bc it's very believable to imagine Alicent do that when she herself has said to the same council that Rhaenyra plans to kill her kids if she were to ever take the throne AND she and Criston both have said, openly to said council, that:

bastards are "monstrous by nature"; default evil/dangerous

she & Daemon would make a "whorehouse" out of the Red Keep, both bc of Daemon's rep AND for R having bastards

being married to the "degenerate" (gay) Laenor

She also says "Bastard blood shed in war" in a desperate attempt to convince Rhaenyra from killing Aemond after hearing a rejection, so we know she's not likely above wishing Rhaenyra had just died in childbirth when that solves a lot of her problems.

(Yes, Alicent says this way later into the war and not around the time where mushroom says she said this, she was never, though, above using her power against child-Rhaenyra and, again, how she and Criston talked of bastards--2 of whom happened to be kids/legal minors--supports the image of her not caring much about people dying gruesomely to protect her own interests and her kids. And that's a more common than people want to realize in this world/these set of circumstances...even Ned contemplates about Catelyn about just how far and cold one might become or what acts [TOWARDS CHILDREN] they'd do if it meant their kids' lives and even just for "honor".)

Like these are both things Alicent has actually said to convince that council to help crown Aegon, yes for persuasion, but she was convinced herself the usurpation was necessary both for herself, her kids' safety and posiitons/rank/"rights", and was very faithful to the Fait of the Seven's doctrine...including gender roles bc of her family's history and contemporary relationship w/said institution.

All that being said, Mushroom was not even at KL for him to hear those words from her mouth. One might try to say that he heard that from servants when he did finally arrive at KL w/Rhaenyra, but it's a 50/50 thing when such info is coming from gossipy servants who themselves weren't in that secret meeting. Someone at the council could have said soemthing of Alicent saying that in passing or secretly, but it's too many "coulds".

It definitely is one of those things in the Dance portion of F&B that shows possible slander against women (even amorally acting ones) that has a lot of plausibility to it, at least from where I am at.

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Why are people comparing Alicent to Visenya? I just saw a post claiming it’s hypocritical for Rhaenyra to draw inspiration from Visenya.

Let me guess. They equate (better word than "compared", bc compare also means contrasting if you're ever doing an analysis and we are doing on...or have already) Alicent with Visenya because these two women just happen to have usurped the naked heir for their own children, specifically boys. And some will cite Visenya being the one to call for Rhaena marrying her son Maegor (as Alicent does with Aegon the Elder and Rhaenyra) as further proof bc they assume that Visenya was just as sexistly/selfishly driven as Alicent in doing so.

They lack the desire to detect nuance in general AND the nuanced CRITICAL difference between the two women and their circumstances.

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First of all, those fans have to learn or just stop trying to melt their modern goals with the characters' motivations. How to distinguish between the audience/readers and the characters, bc they have conflated what the characters vs the readers desire from the circumstances that the characters are experiencing. What they are really wanting or trying to say some of the time is that they don't understand why Rhaenyra stans/fans/Alicent haters, etc. criticize ( sometimes not even hate, just criticize) Alicent. Practice not projecting your own feelings and/or goals into the characters, please!

Those who say it's hypocritical for Rhaenyra to hate Alicent while loving Visenya specifically (and usually) bc they percieve both wmen as usurpers alone also try to make as if the standard for why one should support a woman is how "feminist" and pro-woman she should be, being a sort of moral hero within her world and how morally/socially advanced she actively is or not. Because they cannot fathom how their own very-much-not-that fav gets flack in lieu of them knowing that Alicent is at the very end of that spectrum as a traditionalist woman.

Why hate Alicent so much if other women, esp Rhaenyra, aren't feminists or pro woman? Why bother me about my choice/preference if Alicent is not actually that bad? It's an attempt to flatten the spectrum of women we have in ASoIaF, to try to make Alicent seem not particularly extreme as she had been by projecting her extremism onto other groups and thus shrug off the discomfort of preferring her over other female characters (they really could just say they like her because of her poltical inteliigence if they refer to the book version. If it's show version, I personally don't think they have nothing at all to admire, but that's me).

They "forget" that feminism is a social movement, NOT just individual's state of mind! For both women (Rhaenyra and Alicent) or how they are moving in their world, it has never been about feminism BECAUSE FEMINISM DOESN'T EXIST AS A MOVEMENT AS A IDEOLOGICAL FRAME FOR THEM TO BASE OR MAKE THEIR DECISIONS ON---THAT WOMEN CONCIOUSLY AND INTELLECTUALLY TRY TO USE TO GAIN RIGHTS FOR ALL WOMEN---IN WESTEROS FOR PEOPLE TO BE JUDGING WOMEN ON HOW NONFEMINIST THEY ARE!!

This the real reason why Alicent is not loved by fandom who dislike-to-despise her: her Catholic-adjacent forwardness repressive & unsubtle hypocrisy. Yes in book/orig story, thought it's worse in the show because we actually witness scenes of it and show!Alicent lacks any political acumen.

On the fandom side, already she wasn't going to be that much liked as maybe Catelyn, but then she tries to use tradition to argue for her sons' rights when Rhaenyra had much more of a claim, thus enabling armed, mobilized patriarchal violence that cause BOTH women to lose their kids, lose themselves for a very critical beat (or if you are Alicent, until the day you die). Even as both did go into a war that killed thousands of both nobles but much more small folk, WHO decided in a time of relative peace to disrupt what could have been the beginning of something good for women (even if for noble women or a first) so she could reap the patriarchally-traditonal benefits for herself?

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Secondly, other than what I have already described for Alicent v Visenya in that linked post (above the dotted line), it is also WHO these women are to Rhaenyra: for all her obvious desire to make something more for her self and her son Visenya genuinely was also trying to keep not just her but her siblings' "work" "alive".

Visenya is her indirect ancestor/part of her family, a very important who engendered to keep the dynasty alive even though she also had her own ambitions AT THE SAME TIME, which means Rhaenyra got to live to even become heir; Alicent is Rhaenyra's direct opposer, her enemy, the one actively trying to usurp her, who already tried to degrade her standing in court since she was a child. And not just a child in her teens , I mean a small kid child, if we talk about the book/orig story. Alicent is part of the family who wishes to use the Rhaenyra family's standing to be just as influential. Yet because the Hightowers are the ones literally bankrolling the Citadel and patrons of the Faith at Oldtown--center of Westeros' religion and politically moral compass for hundreds of years.

The Faith just so happens to be the ones who tried to oust the Targs even before Maegor...were always the enemies of the Targs and their inherent magicness, dragons, "foreignness"...why in the fuck would you expect Rhaenyra to be OBLIGATED to like a woman actively using said Faith and social backing's history AGAINST HER CLAIM?! Was Visenya a Faith follower who used said things against Aenys or Aegon the Uncrowned or any Targ? NO, bc she was a Targ herself AND helped her son battle in any way against the Faith. The Faith hated Visenya! Still do. And if the Faith had it their way, Alicent or not, they also would not approve of Rhaenyra being heir/queen (religious patriarchy), what more a woman so physically close to her and living in her childhood home that she hopes to rule from one day but using said institution against her?!

The daughter of the man who while enabled Rhaenyra to become heir ironically, also wasn't doing it for her but to remove the competition he saw in Daemon/prevent him from being heir. Come on, now!

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Thirdly, Rhaenyra loving Visenya has everything to do with her looking to her for inspiration [a very important post to read bc I don't want to repeat myself] AND presenting strength in a similar way you'd think a non-warrior person would use a sword/armor to draw that conventional social cue.

Except that bc Visenya is nearly universally either feared, disdained, or hated, Rhaenyra draws on her to make another distinction about herself: like me or hate me, I will push on. Personal, in that she assures herself of her connection to that strength (thus that she is capable of the sort of power Visenya had aside from knowing how to use a sword, bc you can be trained all you are but you still need that je-nais-se-quois to back it up even without it), and to the public/court as what I already wrote above.

On the more personal side, I headcanon that she may have thought her not that dissimilar to Daemon, her prince consort, and enjoyed this little performance to herself because she both felt like she draw on his strength as well as became that much more intimate with him. Tell me, where can Alicent give any of this even passively to Rhaenyra?! Not only did Alicent already reject Rhaenyra, she had little to nothing to really inspire her! Come on, now!

Now do some people see why the show's Rhaenicent just doesn't hit and is even just a bad rewrite of the original story?!

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Why is there this idea in the fandom that Alicent is some poor, uneducated lady? Even before the show made her younger at the time of her marriage that idea was passed on. Together with this strange (to me) idea that Otto Hightower somehow is a poor landless man.

Otto Hightower is the second son of one of the richest (perhaps even the third richest) house in Westeros. It is very possible that he as manors and others forms of personal income. He might not be a lord but it is not uncommon for untitled nobility to be actually richer than some lords. Sure, his court position allowed him much more power (and perhaps more lands) but strangely Viserys never gave him a title (we see with the Woodville, and the English born Tudor wives how families were raised together with their daughters).

Considering all this, why would Alicent education be lacking compared to Rhaenyra's and Aemma's. I even dare say that considering that Aemma seemed to have been raised from birth to be a Targaryen princess/Queen and the Vale thought on women, it is possible she was even less educated for court than Alicent.

We even get mentions in fire and blood of her education (from reading to the King, to being considered precocious and clever). So why this view persists?

I know it seen in the pro-black faction but I am one too and I always found Alicent to be an Anne Boleyn "type": someone who was sophisticated and formidable educated whose cleverness captured Viserys.

I haven't seen any claims of such here on Tumblr, but that could be bc I don't really go looking for others' posts right now. If true, I would think that "poor" means helpless rather than resource/money-lacking & this vulnerable to the simultaneously-villainized Black faction/the main Targs she's marrying into. Yes it is weird (if true that this is a popular idea) that people would think she's either/both poor or uneducated. She has always been still a Hightower. IF TRUE, then I'd guess that either that some pro-Black fans are responding to pro-greens or fake-neutrals' claims of Rhaenyra being "dumb" or uncouth (a lot of Rhaenicents have & continue to pose Rhaenyra as a sort of "dumb jock" with the "gentle, guiding" woman that is Alicent in their shipping and ideas of who these two are) OR people's dislike for her has outsped their memory OR they haven't read the book.

Aside from that, why do you think the Arryn or Valemen in general have a rather positive or trusting view of women/female leaders than any other Westerosi noble, anon?

And I don't know if Rhaenyra--THE princess and having lived at court her entire life--would have "less" education on courtliness and court culture than Alicent.