first of all, thank you! it's always nice when someone understands how, despite a certain theme being involved that I don't really like, I can still enjoy it at least! like you said, incest isn't the main point of the story, it's just one small portion of the story.
but yeah, once people start harassing you for it or discussing it, then it gets to a point. i was actually talking to a friend about this but the way SOME (not all) people in the community act like there's a moral competition to be had with the series always makes me laugh because george didn't write the books to be that way. there's many elements to the books and many characters who shouldn't just be labeled good or evil.
for example, anytime i hear somebody be like "ewww you like house lannister" i always gotta roll my eyes because they're the same people to say house stark is their favorite or something and listen, i like house stark but they're also not a perfect family house! I can recognize some of the faults and flaws to be had with house lannister while also still loving them as a family house in this world.
No problem, anon. 🙂 This really shouldn’t even be an issue, but some people are too arrogant, entitled and immature to accept that enjoying fiction is not a morality competition.
You can love House Lannister, House Stark, the Targaryens or any other deeply dysfunctional collection of fictional people without endorsing every terrible thing they do. That’s called engaging with a story like an adult instead of treating favorite characters like evidence in a criminal trial.
Once fandom starts harassing people over which imaginary medieval family they enjoy, the whole conversation has already become fucking ridiculous.
that's how i feel about the incest within ASOIAF even if it's not my cup of tea but at the same time, I know why it exists and why it's present for House Targaryen. at the same time, i always worry someone's gonna be like "really you dislike the incest within this world? maybe don't read it then" and I just gotta say "well sure! i could but there's still so many parts about the series that i do love which won't stop me from reading" yes i expected the incest when first reading the series because I've heard there was some of that in the books but there was so much more content and themes that just had me reading more and more of it.
but yeah, it is kinda funny when someone's like "WHAT INCEST IN THIS BOOK??" yeahhhhh there is.
It’s completely normal to dislike or feel uncomfortable with the incest, anon.
Nobody gets to tell you that you therefore shouldn’t read ASOIAF or insult you for having boundaries around certain parts of the story. Incest exists in the series, but it is not the entire fucking point of the series.
What annoys me personally are people who go beyond “this makes me uncomfortable” and start harassing everyone who reads, writes or discusses these characters because the source material contains incest. Atp, just accept that this particular fictional world includes material you dislike, filter what you can, and let everyone else enjoy their books in peace.
You don’t have to approve of every element in a story to love the story as a whole. It seem how that concept has become advanced literature theory online. 🙃
1. Snowstorm; just their book version. Their show selves had about as much chemistry as two action dolls being smashed together
2. Ned/Cersei: by far, my fave crackship just cause of how unhinged it is 🤣
3. Lyanna/Rhaegar: controversial and hated, but I don't mind. It's a classic Romeo/Juliet pairing with ultra tragic consequences and potential for juicy drama, which I like
4. Rhaenys/Visenya; I'm firm in the belief that Visenya was actually in love w her, and not Aegon and idk what the cannon says. This is cannon now George
5. Show Brienne/Tormund; fuck off with that Jamie shit, show Tormund would have been way better for her
6. Rhaena/Elissa; my queer Queens, no notes
7. Rhaena/Tyanna of the Tower: I read this ship in a fic and damn was it interesting. I love the idea of this twisted, sapphic love affair between these two rivals with a tyrant in between them
8. Davos/his wife; this is my wholesome ship of the list, cause I just love how much this man thinks about his wife 💜
9. Daenerys/Daemon Blackfyre; I'm a sucker for forbidden love, what can I say
it genuinely makes me upset seeing the reactions to Georhes last blog post which was about a week ago or so where he talked about depression and the loss of friends. the moment that went up, some were like "oh well! ANYWAYS WINDS OF WINTER" and it's like. dude, he's talking about personal struggles in his life and this what you respond with?
it's nothing surprising and I get people long for the day Winds of Winter is released but there's also a time and place. personally, I'd rather reread all the amazing ASOIAF books he's already given us and discuss those books time and time again than have him rush TWOW.
ofc we don't know him personally but I still feel for him.
Yeah, some people are being complete assholes about it. George is talking openly about grief, depression and losing people he cared about, and somehow their first response is still “but where’s Winds?” Leave the man alone.
I made peace a long time ago with the possibility that we may never get The Winds of Winter from him. Maybe he has plans for his material after his death, maybe not. Either way, he has already given readers an enormous body of work. His wellbeing matters more than somebody getting another fucking fantasy novel on their preferred schedule.
Am I the only one who's tired of HotD Daemon being reduced to a Valyrian supremacist storyline this season? Notice how its always Daemon who's telling Rhaenyra when she doubts herself that they are gods so that he indirectly appears a manic leading Rhaenyra down the supremacy path.
In the book, there was no hint that either Daemon or Rhaenyra were these hugeass Old Valyria supremacists specially since Rhaenyra had three visibly non Valyrian looking kids as her heirs and Daemon seemed content enough to betroth them to his only daughters. Targs lived in Westeros for more than a century at this time and after Jaehaerys reign they were all but assimilated into the culture and faith.
I feel this is deliberately done by HBO to alienate Targs and make them seem "aliens" and outsiders to justify the ending of Game Of Thrones, to show how every Targ is mad to some level like it's the faulty genes. Even though I liked akotsk and it was largely canon accurate, it was also somewhat Targ critical like some choice of lines.
Back to Daemon, Matt Smith is real good but I am so done with Daemon being this "make Westeros new Valyria" What? And he says it openly in front of River lords and Northerns as though Westerosi lords and people have no problem with it? As tho the only hurdle are the Hightowers and everyone else would just get on with it? The writing is giving Game Of Thrones seasons 7 & 8.
Sigh! They could have done something different and better with Daemyra's story this season but instead they did this. It's as awful as it's predictable. Particularly the whole prophesy bogus and Valyrian vs Faith spiel because it's not only bastardising story but also these characters.
I mean, this has been show cannon for ages. The Targs are the ontological evil of the universe, the GOT's Slytherin House that only produces blood supremacist tyrants. And this has been reinforced not only through the members we've seen on screen or mentioned in universe (Daemon, Aemond, Dany, Rhaenyra, Aerys, the AKOTSK Targaryens, etc.) but the coin flip line the shows have taken to using as shorthand for inevitable Targaryen-specific madness and corruption.
I think this is something that needs to be accepted in the show's cannon because the nature of these adaptations has always been to simplify, and sanitize stuff into good vs evil when translating onto the screen, so casual audiences can have someone to root for. (Until they need to flip the switch, and then they'll just have the characters don medieval Sith outfits to stage nazi rallies so the audience knows they're evil now. It's kind of insulting how they just think people won't get it unless you have literal Nazis on screen)
Tbh, in theory, i don't mind this concept being presented in the show. The book Targs are inextricably linked with their Valyrian heritage, and do engage in supremacist rhetoric, despite their assimilation. And this is to be expected, as they are at the top of a feudal hierarchy; there's a reason IRL royalty used the divine right of Kings to justify their rule, why they called themselves blue bloods, why they often cited relation to the gods. It was a way to justify their grip on power, present themselves as above the common man to reinforce the hierarchy as natural.
And this is relevant to the Targs cause they are relative newcomers to the land, when you compare them to the other houses. So they need something to justify why they get to rule over nobility that once ruled in it's own right. So they reference a genetic connection to the most powerful weapon in universe—dragons—to reinforce their own specialness, and monopolize said control. Because if you need their specific blood to claim dragons, then no one else can topple them, as they lack the same access.
Side-note, this is why Nettles is such a fantastic character; cause she completely deconstructs this idea of this special genetic heritage. Her taming of Sheepstealer mirrors how early Valyrians may have done this originally. Like TWOIAF states they started off as sheephearders and I don't think thats a coincidence.
It's very likely they tamed the dragons the same way she did, and then turned to magic to monopolize this connection for the purposes of imperialism. Its lowkey why I think the Freehold and the Targs got fucked after; because this exploitative relationship is destructive in nature, and is bound to lead to ruin in the end.
Meanwhile, Nettles, who was already hesitant to use her dragon as a weapon of war, got to fly away and live out her days in relative peace, where she and her dragon got to exist as equals. (Its also why I think dragons being presented exclusively as weapons of mass destruction isn't a perfect analogy, as the universe states the death of dragons resulted in harsher winters, and the death of magic in universe. I think they're magical animals that are necessary to maintain the equilibrium of the world; the issue is, people treating them as nothing more save weapons of destruction which has disastrous consequences)
Tangent aside, the Targs would have a reason to still cling to supremacist beliefs, both while they're at their apex and after they've lost their dragons. Like Daemon and Aemond being supremacists is good character development as it speaks to their second son syndrome. These two are men who, by virtue of circumstance, get nothing in the inheritance. So it makes sense they'd cling to their Valyrian heritage as a way to distinguish themselves, especially cause in their minds, said heritage (dragons) was the very thing that saw them gain this position in Westeros. Aerion is much the same, except his complex is even stronger cause he has no dragon to physically back up his assertion.
The problem is the farming of this beliefs as a biological inevitability, not a byproduct of systemic indoctrination, and an artificial system that was created to justify this hierarchy. Nope, it's this one family that's the root of all tyranny and evil, and no matter how hard they try, they'll never be able to break free because evil has been chosen for them ages ago. And I can hear you saying "uhhh Cersei and Joffrey were portrayed as evil too!" Yes, but their villainy was never pathologized or linked to some biological coin flip that affects their entire lineage (hell, Tywin's ruthlessness is often portrayed in a positive light, as clever, strategic pragmatism)
It's all deterministic and very fatalistic; you can never escape your biology, you're doomed to be just like your evil ancestors, period. But it makes for digestible TV for casual audiences; it also helps you market and sell stuff lol.
I'm in the process of creating my OCs family but realized I first need to create their House, their history and which region they live in - all the nitty details that make a noble family in Westeros.
I'm dead serious when it comes to fleshing out my OCs and more so now as this is my first fanfic for the world of ASOIAF.
