#ask polystumbles

[polystumbles]

re: your safer sex guidelines. how do you deal with & combat STI-shaming and stigma? what happens if someone in your polycule has an STI, especially a lifelong one?

That’s not really the objective of our safer sex guidelines, so it’s not addressed in there. The guidelines are about minimizing risk of transmission, and empowering everyone for informed consent. As such its not a tool for fighting stigma.  

We haven’t had this STI talk. Perhaps we should. 

However, to answer your question, here’s how I would handle it. Once any emotions subside it would be a rational discussion on risks between partners, then each person would decide how best to protect themselves in light of the developments. 

What adjustments might be needed, if any, would vary according to each person’s risk aversion, the risk of the sti, and the methods/effectiveness of monitoring and prevention. Those decisions may even include not being sexual with partner whose partners pose too much a bodily risk, or even not continuing a relationship. Such is the price of bodily autonomy. 

However, when you know what STI(s) you are dealing with you can more accurately assess your risks of transmission and methods of protection. You’re probably at a bigger risk not knowing whether someone has an STI, than knowing a partner has an STI.

Ironically, some high impact STIs, like HIV, can be more effectively monitored, prevented, and controlled than some lower impact STIs, like HSV (hard to protect against, rarely monitored, difficult to transmit, low impact on life, utterly commonplace). You can’t tell a person what to do to protect themselves, but you can accept their fear, and provide trustworthy resources to help a partner make an informed decision, and try to provide reassurance that you can handle your side of protecting them. But none of this help is debate: what a new partner might read as stigma, could just as easily be a history of mistakes, a context the partner doesn’t understand.

If you feel a partner or metamour’s position is unreasonable, you might want to consider what are the barriers to change for them, and act accordingly.

For more guidance, check out the PolyWeekly podcast and the episodes under the STI tag.

[polystumbles]

So if my poly partner is seeing someone who is cheating on thief marriage, he can't then assume the other person is poly, is that what I can take away from your answer?

Correct. Cheating is not evidence of polyamory.

Cheating is non-consensual. Yet, consent is at the heart of polyamory and other forms of ethical non-monogamy.

However, perhaps your issue is not with whether or not your metamour (partner’s partner) is poly – judging their intent is impossible – rather it sounds like the issue is whether you are ok with your partner complicit in their dishonesty. You are not. Use your words. Look, I’m not looking to judge people and their choices. It may be that cheating is reasonable for them. It may be that cheating is not reasonable for you. The person you need to make that clear to is your partner. 

You seem to be looking for an angle in a conversation, but people in your partner’s situation are looking for logic, they are holding onto excuses.

You have to decide if letting this run it’s course is worth your relationship to them. What do you need to feel (emotionally, ethically, and physically) safe rather than to judge their actions? Could anything make you feel safe? Maybe yes. Maybe no. You have to decide and negotiate with them.

[polystumbles]

Do you think if someone is willing to cheat on their current partner, it makes them poly?

Cheating has nothing to do with polyamory.

Some Polyamorous people cheat (by breaking the rules of their relationships). Some Monogamous people cheat (by breaking the rules of their relationships). 

A willingness to break the rules of a relationship gives ZERO indication that you have a willingness to negotiate the rules of a relationship.  If anything, it shows the opposite. If the statistics are to be believed, there is perhaps nothing more monogamous than cheating. 

There are some exceptions. If Idris Elba wants to fuck you, you worry about being gay, bi, or straight, Monogamous or Non-Monogamous after the fact. 

Now, does it imply you might be poly because you desire another person? Nope. Not that either. It means you’re a fucking human buddy, welcome to the club!  Desiring others while in monogamous relationships is also completely common. 

[polystumbles]

Was reading your latest blog. Just wanted to say that your wife probably doesn't feel the same compulsion for zs presence that you do. :)

I wasn’t going to answer this ask about this post, but in the spirit of having an open mind, assuming good intentions, and helping anyone who may be struggling with this issue let me answer it.

Why, for holy fucks sake, would she?

Why would I expect Amy to want Z’s presence? Why would I expect Z to want Amy around? Why would one expect metamours to crave each other’s presence, the way they want their partner?  I guess it sounds nice, in the triad-centric poly sense. I mean, in real life it’s an almost silly expectation when you think about it. 

The driving force for Amy here is her empathy for Z and  her inclusion of Z’s desire to care for her loved one in a time of grief. Those things did happen, I saw them, Amy saw them. However, do I think Amy felt a desire for Z to be there? No. I think she did want her there out of compassion for Z, and out of love for me, but for Z as a metamour per se.

I’d say the expectation that partners be good friends, want each other around, and the like are just as bad as the expectation that they be lovers.  It’s still some external power (me) dictating the minimum nature of their relationship. It makes developing a friendship a pressure, not a bonus.  I don’t want to do that. I don’t have that expectation.  You shouldn’t either. I need respect, consideration, and good will from them, about each other. I need respect and safety from them.

I do think they’ll be friends again, become better friends then ever. I do think it will make things better for all of us as they do, but if Amy broke my trust, she doubly broke Z’s trust even when all Z was asking of her was minimal compared to me. I don’t expect them to be superhuman and not have emotions to deal with about that. Even in those difficult moments, we all expect compassion, consideration, respect for and respect the autonomy of each other. 

[polystumbles]

Would you even be poly if you initially dated someone who hunkered for you the way you did for them?

Short answer:

Monogamy isn’t a prize. Not in consolation, nor in victory. It is a choice. In many cases it’s the right choice for people, in many other cases it’s the wrong choice. it’s needs and risk tolerance. If you approach monogamy like a prize, you’ll tie your self worth to it, win or lose. That’s a shitty way to live when monogamy involves another person’s needs and risk tolerance -- not how much, or with how much effort, you love someone. 

Love is not a meritocracy. Hard work is no guarantee for love. And monogamy, is not love’s apex. 

Long answer:

Yes I’d still be poly and I have empirical evidence because what else does one call “hunkering down“ than:

Amy:

Literally clean the shit out of my mom’s house

Throw on boots and grab a knife to join the street fight one night when my older brother was in a rumble

Give birth to my two children

Welcome other people into our relationship, our bed, our lives.

To tackle my family’s poverty together

Build two, going on three profitable businesses together.

Accept the growth of my relationship with Z.

Navigate my family in two countries, across three languages

Tackle her family issues, her mental health issues, to be a better partner for me.

Z:

Accepting my commitment to my family

Dating me despite my relationships with Bee and Amy when we met

Giving up control just to spend time with me in that home

Loving past my mother’s bitterness

Attempting to forge a relationship with Amy

Face her fears of illegitimacy and being the “other woman”

Accept me fully for the Bison that I am.

Tackling her anxiety and depression to own her own shit

Working to forge other relationships to meet her own needs, so don’t feel compelled to try and meet them all

To move within minutes of where I live so we could be closer.

I may love a lot. I may have energy, passion, commitment, and attention to detail, but I have not done what they have done for for me. {That was a small selection above.}

Z and Amy have hunkered down for me the way even more than I have done for them. I don’t think there is more either of them could have done to earn monogamy. Could I have asked more of them at any point? No.

Order has nothing to do with it. If I had dated Z first, I would have been arrested not been the person she fell in love with.

As for today, I’m not sure what has happened to Amy. I think her mental health issues have proven unconquerable, and I’ve given up having any responsibility in healing those issues for my own safety. Perhaps the emptiness of achieving her life goals, has left only the vast emptiness of her past, with no tension to hold the chasm closed. But no matter what happens, it won’t be because of a lack of “hunkering down”.

[polystumbles]

We are poly & i love both my bf and gf very much, however it is becoming more & more clear that my partner is more enamoured with our gf than with me. It hurts so very much. But if I say anything its just me being insecure. How can I approach this?

If this is a new relationship with the girlfriend:

I’d recommend you sit on a couch with a good view of them. Pour a good cup of tea and watch their interactions (I don’t mean sex).  Record in your memory how happy he is now.  That is the giddy glow of new relationship energy. He felt that with you, but biology is biology and (almost) no one feels that forever (though there are hacks).  Unless your partner is a freak like me, that glow fades but he will be reminded of having that feeling with you, he will feel parts of it for you, if not right away than soon, it will be reawakened in bits. It’s a chemical called dopamine and overtime gets overcome in most people by the pairing hormone oxytocin (typically somewhere 6-18 months). If he’s a freak like me, my NRE tail is very long,  he still feels the same for you but you may be blind to it -- as Amy so often is. So when you see how he smiles for her, you might not be seeing when he smiles that way for you – probably because of those insecurities.

If this is an established relationship: and you don’t think the above applies. You should start by asking yourself 2 questions:

So what? Disarm the issue by seeing it’s really a non-issue. Is it even possible to love people equally? What would that even look like? When you stop and think about it, the idea is non-sensical: people give love and need love differently. You: snowflake. GF: snowflake. Both: unique. You may need less or more of the different things – and love isn’t one thing.

Now what? You need something now  -- that something is called reassurance. Sure you can fault him for not providing enough of it now, but really what will that get you other than a nasty breakup and a strike against you. So do what makes sense in the bedroom when you want something: try it a little by yourself, and then ask for it.

What do I mean try it a little by yourself? Here’s an example of an exercise I did with Amy (nee Wife). She read an article on the 5 love languages. She Identified 2 things about herself: Which love language are you most receptive to, which love language are you most expressive in? I did the same. We discussed our findings. You can think about it all by yourself: think back on your relationship(s)– how do you best feel loved? How does your partner prefer to show it? Tell your partner you want that. Ask for it clearly, and let him dictate the last mile. Then also recognize, and acknowledge when he shows love how he prefers to show it, because that will also get you more of it. 

I think you’ll become more confident that he loves you and worry less about who he loves more, when it’s clear that your love is bespoke.

Hat tip to @blissmanifesto​ who first recognized wife’s love language and sent us down that path with a comment she made a while back –thanks!

[polystumbles]

::Pouts:: Now why can't I find someone to have an electrifying sexual connection with?

You will, love. You seem all around with it, self aware, and you know what you want. Just don’t forget to enjoy the journey there, soaking up even the frustrations and all,  or you’ll easily forget what they’ll mean to you when you find them.

It’s that journey that brings the clarity and focus needed to make miracles manifest. I needed that clarity when I met wife and I was so young. I needed it again when I almost left Z after a few dates.

[polystumbles]

Hi! My primary partner is considering dating a couple. I told her before I wasn't comfortable with this. She regularly schedules dates with other people when we had already planned things and she once cancelled on me 3 times in ten days and I'm still not over that. Triads can be very time/emotionally consuming, and I don't feel emotionally safe with a primary dating me, being in a triad, and seeing another person (which she would be doing) since she's so bad at time management. Any thoughts?

Ton of thoughts, you might not like all of them.

Successful polyamory requires one major mental shift that people often try to avoid: putting your partners in control of deciding what will make them the most happy. If you have made known your fear, know that your fear isn’t really about the configuration (couple+partner+you) – that could be just as threatening in monogamy – it’s about what it takes for you to be reassured emotionally. You (together) have to figure out what she needs to do to make you feel secure. Your shift is to put yourself in control of what makes you happy, and it’s not your partner’s relationship decisions.  Her job is to join you on that journey.

For me that looks like understanding that for Wife that means she gets a lot more alone time that is consistent. It means she gets me without having to have sex with me every day. For Z, it means that I hear very little about her life when I’m not around, and that she gets a lot more say in defining how she wants to be a part of my life, and my family life. Both are free to date whom they please, I am free to own my own dam feelings about that. For a while too it meant that I maintained 3 relationships: Bee, Z, and Wife. 

You are making assumptions about her dating a couple, such as calling them a triad, and assuming that a triad can’t be casual or less emotionally involved. You are assuming she can’t meet your emotional needs, and when you do so you are writing her out of your own life. Try instead to paint a path for her to stay an important part of your life: tell her what you need. Just don’t tell her to do everything at once. 

The canceling is a good place to start. For some people canceling is NOT a big deal. For some people it is a huge deal. The biggest issues Z and I have had have been due to changes in plans (aka canceling). What one party views as a change the other can view as being left out in the rain.

Try the good old “When you do ______, I feel ______.” statements. Think about 5 negative and five positive examples. Find a way to share them with her.

If she’s bad a time management – make her good at it, share a calendar, confirm, remind. Work with your metamours too. Ask her if you can coordinate all together, if they can check with you. Coordinate the week with her every Sunday night. Don’t just say she’s bad, be active. My dentist now calls, texts, and emails out reminders. There is a cancellation fee. That sounds like role play material right there!

For example, when Wife refers to me with platonic terms, such as friend, She knows I am going to town on her that night. She is going to get fucked ridiculously hard, probably in the ass, and going to be taking a load in her face, to remind her not to call me a friend. Why? Because I am not her friend.

The bad news here however is big – canceling on you can be a few things: leaning on the strength your relationship over the new ones, just bad at planning, or that you are not her priority. If this is consistently an issue, I’d say its the latter.

Which leads to what may be the toughest to hear. What if you consider her your primary but she doesn’t consider you hers? What would that mean? Would you be willing to accept that? What does the word Primary even mean to you? To her? Are you speaking the same terms? The idea that there is a “we first“ is belied by the 50% divorce rate in America (assuming you are in the US).

Wife had to make this adjustment with Z. My relationship with Z is much more than Wife and I had ever thought of as possible when we opened up. Wife essentially shares me half time with Z. She could decide at any time that this is not what she wants. She could decide at any time that she has unmet needs (and go get them fulfilled). She could decide that Z is a negative effect on her life, and decide not to interact with Z. But she can’t decide what I do. Being a primary partner does not mean making choices for  your partner. (You can read those statements precisely the same with Z in Wife’s place, but our relationship never had the “protections” of monogamy and marriage.) 

If you want her in your life – your only choice is to work with her to make the decisions she wants to make, safe for you. Her decisions, your needs.

That’s really at the end of the day why I don’t really like hierarchical language in polyamory: no matter what you do or call, polyamory forces everyone too balance being accountable to their own decisions and owning reactions – absent grandiose, broken societal expectations.