#atheist discourse

[the-nerdy-autist]

Fuck You Tumblr

"Atheists are just as bigoted as religious people about women and LGBT rights!"

Religiously unaffiliated people more likely than those with a religion to lean left, accept homosexuality

In most of the 18 countries analyzed, religiously unaffiliated adults were more likely to say homosexuality should be accepted by society.

[nothorses]

i understand the idea of telling people to think about their cultural christianity in terms of making sure youre not dismissing other religions holidays and such as that, but, specifically when it comes to holidays, if the argument is that an atheist partaking in christmas is culturally christian [which is Bad and also something they cant really escape from without converting to a different religion, or something?] are we supposed to just not have any holidays besides whatever country holidays [eg. fourth of july] we get born into? or is there some atheist non religious holiday i dont know about.

this isnt meant to sound aggressive or anything youre just the only person ive seen push back against the way people have been talking about this and i feel like i missed half of the argument people are trying to make. even though i have read so many posts.

I feel like the first part of this ask actually demonstrates a huge part of the problem I have with the way "culturally Christian" is used on tumblr: i.e., as a replacement for "Christian privilege", "Christian normativity", or just "Christian bigotry.

Those terms describe a system of power, which centers Christianity and excludes and attacks all others.

What's important here is that they are describing systems, rather than placing blame on specific individuals.

"Cultural Christianity" is meant to describe the values that Christianity promotes, the culture that arises from it, the impact Christianity has on our culture as a whole, and the insidious and often unacknowledged nature of it all. Again, the problem here is the system at large; not specific individuals.

By calling specific individuals "culturally Christian", determined by their current/past beliefs, their location, and nothing else, you send the message that it isn't about the system- the problem is the individual, it originates from something they can't control in the first place, and as such, they can never hope to meaningfully change or grow.

The second part of the ask illustrates another big part of my beef with this conversation: the insinuation that atheists do not and cannot have agency (until we're doing something they don't like, of course).

Atheists can partake in any religious holiday without it making us religious. Anyone can partake in any religious holiday without it making them that religion. We can celebrate christmas, and while it's good to think critically about why that holiday might have value to us, there is also not much of a point in refusing to visit the family for the big dinner and what is perhaps the only time you will see most of them that year, just because someone on tumblr says it makes you Basically Christian.

Atheism is a valid belief. It's not a blank slate, it isn't just code for Whatever Religion Is ACTUALLY Dominant In Your Life. It's a complete, independant, coherent way of seeing the world that does not need to be supplemented by religion. There is no empty space that Christianity creeps into when we don't fill it with other religion; we have our own ideas, values, and priorities, and we are capable of making connections and decisions about what we do or do not want to include in those values.

Atheists are not uniquely or exclusively susceptible to absorbing Christian ideas from surrounding culture; people of other religions also frequently pick those things up without realizing it, and an ex-christian converts to other religions will probably have a lot more to unpack than, say, an atheist who grew up atheist.

So I guess to answer your question: no, we don't have any atheist holidays. We also don't need them. Going to Christmas dinner to be with your family doesn't make you Christian, and we don't really need to come up with something else to "cancel out" the Christian influences in our lives. If anything, all that does is further center Christianity as The Default Religion.

Celebrate whatever the hell you want (as long as it's respectful and invited). You're just as atheist either way.

[nothorses]

In a lot of ways it feels like 'culturally christian' is buying into the whole American patriotism/evangelical Christianity rhetoric of a 'real american' and just saying that's bad instead of actually not believing in it if that makes any sense. You can talk about the broad impact christian institutions have had on american culture without refusing to listen to people's individual experiences with their faith. It's just a very flattening way of viewing a very complex topic

The other part of it is a very real, very deeply-rooted form of bigotry against atheists that says that we are, essentially, incapable of having any kind of independant value system and morality.

The idea being that humans are inherently sinful, and only God can make us pure and good, which is... kind of the whole basis of Christianity.

If Atheists can be good and do good without any religious motivation, and if we can form coherent value systems that do not rely on religious framework, that challenges the core of Christian belief systems. And Christians famously do not like to have their core beliefs challenged.

I can't speak to how this translates to other religions, but it seems to me that a lot of the people saying exactly this from that new "atheist morality is actually just borrowed Christian morality, there is no such thing as independant atheist morality (and that's bad because Christianity is bad)" angle are mostly "spiritual" ex-christians and ex-christian converts of other religions.

And like... idk. I just think people who leave Christianity for another religion/spirituality do tend try to fill Christianity-shaped holes left behind in their minds with Christianity-shaped ideas, but like, repainted.

Yknow, the same shit they accuse all Atheists of doing regardless of our actual unique backgrounds and relationships with religion- many of which have absolutely fuckall to do with Christianity.

I believe the word is "projection".

[nothorses]

I'm Jewish raised agnostic, and I'd like to add to the "culturally christian" discussion, that religious minorities in a place like the US Do have to deal with it, and it's work even if you're raised without Jesus. I'm finally dropping the "secular" recognitions of xmas. Stopping the use of Jesus' name because even to take it in vain is to give it the power to be misused in a non-xtian mouth. Idk, we Do have to struggle against cultural xtianity, it's ubiquitous but it's not a personal failure.

Yeah!!

I honestly do not mind the concept of cultural christianity in the context of A Thing Our Culture Is; something every individual person will be influenced by differently, and form different relationships with, depending on their specific situation.

My beef is just when people slap it onto specific individuals; oftentimes folks who have outright traumatic relationships with christianity itself and/or have done years of work to unlearn the ideas referenced here (work these people often have not done themselves, bc they think they're immune to it, bc they think cultural christianity is something individuals are and not something that happens to our wider shared culture)

or onto atheists in general (because obviously atheists are all just bitter ex-christians who hate religion and think we're better than everyone else, and also we have no morals and we just don't want to face consequences for our actions- but rest assured we will be Punished and Proven Wrong (: none of this is cultural christianity btw)

or treat it like some kind of "gotcha" or shameful quality that only losers and bad people possess; not, again, something that impacts everyone, and that a lot of people- religious minorities in particular- talk about pretty frequently (in my experience) as something they resent being influenced by and had to work to recognize and unlearn.

rant aside.

you are absolutely correct, and it's a fucking shame that people treat cultural christianity like a Bad Person Trait you have to seek forgiveness for, rather than the insidious weapon that it is- and that many "culturally christian" folks suffer because of & reject.

[nothorses]

i'd just like to say that when people cite religious swears as culturally christian (and therefore something you shouldn't do), as an exchristian it kinda stings cuz being able to take the lords name in vain is. it sounds dumb but its really powerful to me? Like i never got to swear, I always had to be better than everyone else who did that, and now i use swear words, especially religious ones, constantly to sorta take them back. Yeah the fact they're so ubiquitous IS culturally christian, but I don't think that means we Must Stop Using Them. Maybe im misunderstanding the argument, that's entirely possible, but that's how it reads to me on first blush.

No, I'm here for that. I've always seen it as something I can do that christians can't, and I can do it because I'm not one of them, and I don't feel any guilt or fear or shame about it because their rules don't mean anything to me.

It's power! It's really, really small power, but it's power nonetheless. And I grew up feeling like being an outsider to christianity was something to be ashamed of; I was at best "on thin ice", especially if I dared go beyond "oh yeah I fully respect religion and religious people, it does so much for so many people and I really admire that! I wish I could believe in something :(" and, god forbid, say the word atheist.

It's ascribing importance to it to say those words at all, but the fact of the matter is that the importance is already there. We live in a Christian-dominated society. Maybe it denotes significance that I'm choosing this particular boot to shit on, but that's true of any boot, and the boot's owners sure don't want me sitting on it either way. Sounds like a win to me 🤷‍♂️

[notthat-fragile]

If there's one thing I can't stand about this time of year it's watching the same traditional christmas movies with all white heteronormative casts, conservative humor, lame tropes, and "family values" that I've seen 20 million times for the last 20 years. If I have to be guilted into watching national Lampoon's christmas vacation one more time I think I'll scream