#cacw talk

[tonyglowheart]

lmao sorry to be digging up old salt but I saw a post in the tags that has me pressed again lmao-

okay to this day. to this day I still have no clue how people can argue Team Cap in CACW. I honestly still have yet to hear an argument that I thought was clear and cohesive and didn’t, like, operate under usually several fundamental misunderstandings of the situation/circumstances as presented.

The biggest flaw for me other than simply parroting back the movie lines justifications (which imo just do not hold water lmao), is people treating the Sokovia Accords like it’s SHRA. like, comics Civil War may have been the “inspiration” for CACW, but imo the Sokovia Accords just are not trackable onto SHRA in the way people try to make it be. It’s NOT legislation that passed by the US Congress into law in the U.S. whatever whatever; it’s a U.N. resolution/action which is, if not spearheaded by, then at least led by Wakanda and King T’Chaka. It was ratified by 117 countries, who said they don’t want a U.S. based superpowered paramilitary group traipsing on their sovereign soil whenever they please, however they please, in the name of bringing them freedom. The thing is, is that by putting the Sokovia Accords on an international scale like they did, you’re now working in a, well. global context lmao. So I do think you HAVE to track sociopolitical relations onto how you’re approaching this issue.

Like, I think the other argument is that “oh well Steve just saw how HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, he’s right not to trust the government” okay but the U.S. government is still standing, and I didn’t see him outright fighting against the U.S. government. And it’s like, if you want to start arguing about “well governments are corrupt, so the 117 doesn’t matter bc it’s probably corrupt governments, who may or may not be HYDRA-” we start getting into the territory of like. don’t be an American imperialist lmao. Other countries do not Need to have the U.S.’s paternalistic interest to keep them on the moral straight and narrow (as defined by the U.S.). You’re once again in “sounds like x country needs some Freedom” territory. Plus this idea of oh well SHIELD was infiltrated therefore any possibly every entity or government is or could be... to some degree maybe that could be cautious, but to the degree of using that as an argument to argue against *117 sovereign nations* seems like logical fallacies and paranoia.

“Oh, but Thaddeus Ross brought it to them and he’s evil-” okay but he’s also Secretary of State. Who else do you think is going to be presenting U.N. documents to a U.S. based group, in the U.S. Especially with SHIELD - who might have had liaisons dealing with this - is now gone. Like I think CACW has a bunch of stuff that don’t make sense, but this is one of the things that don’t (not make sense). Perhaps they did also use Ross to like, play up the “oh but both sides have bad parts about them” angle, but it’s like. as U.S. Secretary of State, yeah he’d be the guy attending U.N. assemblies lmao. Also if anything him taking the time to present it personally imo shows the gravity of the situation, if he’s not delegating it out to a liaison lmao.

Also god to this day, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone satisfactorily explain what the FUCK the “these documents just shift the blame” line is supposed to mean. ....so other countries wanting to hold you accountable for past damages you’ve caused on their soil and also prevent you from just traipsing in as you wish is “shifting responsibility”? Like ??? I really do not see how “well you clearly don’t hold yourselves accountable for your actions in my home so I’m going to do it” is “this is us not taking responsibility for our actions if we don’t get to decide if we get to just enter your home at will.. it’s just shifting blame” (to where??)

[tonyglowheart]

whatever else abt CACW, at least it gave us the “lovely Tom Ford three piece two button” line and also the iGauntlet scene which was super fckn Hot

[tonyglowheart]

@blossomsinthemist replied to your post “@blossomsinthemist replied to your post “see when I try to think about...”

I agree with you. For me, the issue with CW is that it complicates Steve in a way it then refuses to resolve and it brings up issues it then refuses to address re: his heroism. Comics Steve is horrified by his own violence in Civil War, when he sees civilians afraid of him. We don't see anything like that in MCU Steve, and that lack of reaction makes him seem like, well, a different character, one more focused on himself, but there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement of how much that is of a change for him, of many things they changed about him. CW seems like a movie that wants to go deep with Steve and show us what makes him tick, but when push comes to shove it feels like they just don't; they let people draw their own conclusions, and they don't let him engage with his own power or, uh, responsibility, not to be cliche and crib from another guy's story. It feels like they wanted to show Steve being vulnerable and human and making a mistake and reacting emotionally, but they also didn't want to acknowledge what that meant for the character, they also wanted a heroic character who was Right and not to explore the nature of who Cap is and his stances on things, and as a result what was presented was messy and unclear. I feel like they tried to have their cake and eat it too and came up with something that didn't work for me either way, especially as compared to the comics (which I have other problems with regarding this arc, but still, it didn't work as well as they did, even if I don't think they worked 100% or even close to it).

And I think in some ways this was because of the nature of how the project got made, but we got the movie we got, so yeah.

Yes I agree with a lot of this. Including and especially the last part :’)

[tonyglowheart]

not to be salty but I don’t think I’ll ever get over just how fucking weak CACW makes Team Cap look lmao. Like, as an Iron Man fan, and having watched Iron Man (2008), like wtf. Like, the Mad Money episode following Tony’s announcement ending weapons manufacturing? “STARK RAVING MAD” in large letters across the back. “DOES THE HINDENBURG RING ANY BELLS?” smashing that mug with the bat “this is a weapons company that doesn’t make weapons”

flash-forward to CACW. Following Lagos, King T’Chaka’s on TV talking about the lost Wakandan lives and wanting accountability, and “victory at the expense of innocents is no victory at all.” Oh no poor delicate Steve needs to turn the TV off on this brutal tea. He hears sounds in Wanda’s room. She’s watching a news program, of which we hear, “they're operating outside and above international law. what legal authority does an enhanced individual have to operate in Nigeria?” and Steve has to turn off that to protect poor Wanda from this steaming hot tea. “turn that back on, they’re being very specific,” she says heavily.

I mean. What is this weak sauce shit lmao. Fucking weak, come back when you’ve demonstrated your ability to stand up to scathing vitriol from the press and operate with some modicum of grace despite it.

[tonyglowheart]

@blossomsinthemist replied to your post “see when I try to think about MCU Steve, like to really examine him, I...”

I really agree. They just totally tanked his character. I realize it was because Feige basically told them they had to do Civil War, but like. It basically just completely wrecked his character arc. It makes me really sad.

Yeah honestly like... actually today I was thinking about the Iron Man movies vs the Cap movies, and the subtitles of the Cap movies, and like... what the subtitles of the Cap movies say about how they might see Cap’s character...

Like I think Cap’s movies...tend to be more external vs internal. Like even with the marketing or whatever, the Iron Man movies are focusing all on Iron Man, and what Iron Man means to Tony, I guess (well.. okay it’s more complicated than that, but I guess in a general sense). Whereas the Cap movies.. The first one was more about him, but then 2 was The Winter Soldier (which also like.. we had the same external plot thing happen in movie 1...but okay I guess), and then 3 was Civil War... which I mean.. I guess those are important to the Captain America character... but they’re hardly explorations into who Steve is as a character and what Captain America means to him. So I guess again, with Steve, there’s the foregone conclusion of “he is a Hero and that’s that,” so the movies are just “what sort of scenarios can we throw him in”?

Which...fine I guess... But then imo we sort of lose Steve along the way. Especially the TFA Steve, the “little guy from Brooklyn,” the “not a perfect soldier but a good man,” and we’re kind of just left with the ghost of that haunting Cap/Steve, but never any real internal exploration.

@blossomsinthemist replied to your post “I find it frustrating that some of the anti-Tony Discourse that’s not...”

I really agree with you on this, and it's frustrated me for years. I think you really hit the nail on the head - that a lot of people see Tony's heroism as "worse" because it's redemptive, because it comes from a place of acknowledging his flaws and wanting to get better, and because he's so willing to acknowledge he's done shitty things and try harder, and try to use his privilege to help others, and it bothers me that I get that feeling.

(And yeah, sort of like some of the stuff I said above, there’s definitely been a lot of like... well I guess different ppl have different priorities when it comes to heros. Some ppl are fine with just “this guy Hero. he Good” narrative. And it definitely has a place, that you have a hero you can just depend on no matter what as a symbol of hope.

But then lmao imo CACW ruins that lol. Because that, if nothing else, calls Steve’s heroism into question... and then never answers the question and is just like. “well he’s Captain America.”

And it ALSO doesn’t work when he’s posited, seemingly diametrically, against Tony (which is a whole huge fallacy and a whole ‘nother post of discussion), who has a whole different type of heroism and heroism priority. Whose story is more about like...finding heroism within yourself, I guess? (And for some ppl, who ignore that and instead focus on the “well a person is flawed and has propensity for failure” and/or focusing on the “before” too much and hounding on that... like to some people growth apparently doesn’t matter I guess lmao anyway)

Sooooo........you know what, I really do think CACW...kind of ruined MCU lol... well at least for me. Because the whole “you just gotta assume and accept Steve’s heroism into your heart as your lord and savior” narrative doesn’t WORK when you place him against a guy whose hero arc is about finding out what being a hero means to him, and having some great answers for that. (or you know. having an answer at all. Which. honestly I’m not 100% in line with some of the editorial choices, but whatever, we’re talking trends and tropes here, that’s a different post.)

[tonyglowheart]

The thing I don’t like about CACW - and then about IW for invalidating CACW in a way - is how highly unpractical Steve’s position is when it comes to international law/diplomacy/politics? His position is great within the confines of the superhero genre where you’re working with superhero conventions. Superhero takes down supervillain. Done.

Which only works in a theoretical sense, and doesn’t work on the ground within fictional reality. The Avengers are no Justice League which operates out of space. They’re very definitely U.S.-based, and that brings a complicated nuance to international politics, to have a U.S.-based para-military group running around in other countries doing what they think is best. It doesn’t work.

And then - no spoilers - but damn them in IW for failing to pay off any of the framework they halfheartedly tried to build up in CACW re: grounding MCU within fictional reality and defaulting again to superhero genre conventions. Damn them for every single post I have to see that’s like “I’m so glad IW proved Team Cap right!”

because “I’m a superhero and fuck your government I do what I want.” doesn’t work when you’re actually thinking about the implications of such and not just operating within the simplified moral space of the superhero genre. (especially if you consider.. the guy spear-heading this.. a white blond dude who submitted himself for enhancement, runs around in U.S. flag colors, and calls himself “Captain America.” quite yikes in the context of, you know, the history of the world.)

[tonyglowheart]

STEVE. LITERALLY TRIES TO ARGUE WITH TONY. WHEN HE STATES. THE FACT. THAT SHE’S NOT A U.S. CITIZEN. 

STEVEN. THE WRITERS WHO DID THIS. THAT’S LITERALLY NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN ARGUE IN THIS CASE. THAT’S LITERALLY NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE RESOLVED BY YOU GOING “Oh, come on” TO TONY WHEN HE STATES. THAT SHE IS NOT. A U.S. CITIZEN.

[tonyglowheart]

All I can see is most of Team Cap’s assumptions are bad. Steve assumes the U.N. panel is going to be malicious and out to get them/to profit/use them as pawns. Steve’s position ignores the fact that the U.N. is made up of representatives of sovereign nations on whose soil they have and want to continue to operate. Again they’re not operating on neutral territory and these countries just want to cut in for funsies. They’re literally saying “hey you’re not from our country and as far as we can tell you’re U.S.-based and we’d like a say in if you come to our country because the last couple places you’ve been have had a TON of collateral damage.”

Yes from the neat fictional superhero genre, you want the superhero to tackle the supervillains. But CACW is trying to ground this within fictional reality. In which case you gotta start considering international law and such. And, you know, that sovereign nations,, have a right,,, to have a say,,, in affairs that you’re proposing to take place on their soil.

Plus what on earth is the whole “this is shifting responsibility” line? It SOUNDS like a good line but it’s a strawman? “You’re giving up, Tony, because you’re not taking responsibility” explain to me in words how, as they are, they’re taking responsibility. I feel like after Avengers (2012), we as a fandom assumed the Avengers would help take part in rebuilding efforts, etc?

but I guess we’ve seen since that that’s not really the case? At best we have Damage Control from the U.S. government re: NY.