#determinatives

[sumerianlanguage]

I have had occasion to look real close at 𒀭𒄑𒉋𒂵𒎌, and I get why 𒀭[DIĜIR] is there, and 𒉋𒂵𒎌 [BIL₂.GA.MEŠ] are clearly phonetic components---but what the hell is 𒄑 [GIŠ] doing there? it's not pronounced (evidently), but as a determiner it doesn't seem to make much sense to me (used for wooden objects and trees), and 𒄑𒉋𒂵 [(GIŠ) BIL₂.GA] as "male ancestor" with a determiner for wooden objects/trees *haunts* me, but I can't find a source for that. What's going on with 𒄑 in this name?

You know, I can't find a good source on why 𒄑 appears in this name, as I don't think scholars agree on why it's there. The most common theory seems to be that the bilga element may derive from pabilga 𒉺𒉋𒂵 "paternal grandfather, paternal uncle". Halloran lists bilga as being "a plant-breeder's terminology for a human ancestor", as pa 𒉺 has "branch" as its most basic meaning, like the branch of a family tree. Somewhere along the line, the 𒉺 sign of (pa)bilga got reinterpreted as the similar-looking 𒄑 (and related meaning, branch > tree), and thus got stuck in the name of Bilgamesh and presumably others derived from the same root.

However, not all sources agree on pabilga as being a proven etymology for bilga at all, so take all this with a grain of salt. And check out this prior post on the meaning of Gilgamesh's name.

[rudjedet]

I was wondering, do you know where I could look to find a comprehensive list of hieroglyphic determinatives? I'm doing some research for conlanging purposes but most lists on the internet I've found either only have a fraction of known symbols or just list unicode IDs without indicating meaning.

Oh god, I'm sorry, I noted this in my head as a time-sensitive ask but then it just completely slipped my mind.

Anyway, we don't really have one, I'm afraid, or if we do then I don't know of its existence. I don't think it's really possible to make a comprehensive list with simply determinatives, because almost any sign, regardless of whether they had a consonantal value as well, could be a determinative. In addition to that, not all words of the same "type" had the same determinative across the board.

I did find this list, which isn't complete and which I assume you already found yourself if you've been doing some research already, but for posterity I'm adding it in:

I'm sorry I can't be of more help! I would suggest just looking through Gardiner's sign list to see indications of what each sign portrayed.

I'll also tag @thatlittleegyptologist, who is the linguist among us, and would be the most likely to know of something like this if it exists.

[sumerianlanguage]

Is there a toponymic suffix in Sumerian, similar to the Akkadian -āya/ia? I want to make a name that means "from Abzû" . Any info/suggestive would be appreciated. Thank you in advance and for this amazing blog. It's very informative ^u^

Hello! There isn't a specific toponymic suffix - instead toponyms (geographic places) are generally marked with a determinative, a written-only (unpronounced) sign that classifies what is being talked about. The geographical determinative is 𒆠, written after the noun in question, so the city of Uruk (Unug) is written 𒀕𒆠 rather than just 𒀕 unug which means "dwelling" or "fortress".

However, the abzu primordial sea, being only quasi-geographic, is written simply 𒍪𒀊 and doesn't take this determiner. Instead, to say "from [place]", we use the ablative case ending -ta 𒋫. So "from abzu" would be simply abzuta 𒍪𒀊𒋫.

Thanks for the kind words, and let me know if that's clear!

[sumerianlanguage]

Hi, do you have a list of cuneiform determinatives that were applied to people? I know the standard 𒁹 and 𒊩 but looking at wiki I found out about 𒇽 and wondered if there were any other determinatives applied to specific subcategories of people or professions.

Hello! If you're asking about Sumerian, the answer is that there are no determinatives used for people. Sumerian names are written as only the name, like Enheduanna 𒂗𒃶𒌌𒀭𒈾 (en-he2-du7-an-na), without a determinative sign. (The exception is deities, whose names take the determinative 𒀭, as in 𒀭𒂗𒆠 {deity} Enki.)

The 𒁹, 𒊩 and 𒇽 signs are used only as determinatives in the Akkadian language. Check out this post from sisterofiris for how they're used, along with suggestions of what to use for someone of non-binary gender.

Do note that the 𒇽 sign as a determinative is derived from its use in Sumerian (where it's a word, lu "man, person") as the root of a number of occupation-vocabulary words. Check out my occupations tag for many examples, and my determinatives tag for lots on how determinatives work in Sumerian.

[sumerianlanguage]

How do you write the names of the gods?

Hi! I'm not sure what you mean by this question - do you mean a list of deity names in Sumerian? I'm not sure of a resource with such a list (other than the wikipedia pages) but if you have specific deities you want me to write in cuneiform, let me know!

If instead you want to know in general how to indicate a deity name in Sumerian, it's pretty simple! A given deity's name would be preceded by the determinative sign 𒀭, which like all determinatives wouldn't be read aloud. (In other contexts, 𒀭 can mean dingir "deity" or an "sky" along with other meanings.) So Enlil would be written 𒀭𒂗𒆤, with the three signs being "[deity marker] + en + lil".

If you're looking for a translation of "the names of the gods", it would be mumudingira "the (many) names of the god(s)", written 𒈬𒈬𒀭𒀀.

[sumerianlanguage]

Hi everyone, I saw a message talking about how "ur" 𒌨 is used in composing words to talk about carnivorous animals like lion (urmah 𒌨 𒈤 ), wolf (urbarra 𒌨 𒁇 𒊏 ) etc...

And I wondered if there was a similar symbol used for other types of animals

Hi! First, I want to quickly note that this blog is run by one person (me!) so I'm not sure who "everyone" would be ><

The original post being referred to is here, detailing how many carnivorous animals in Sumerian begin with the root ur 𒌨 "dog". There isn't really an equivalent I know of for other animals, where instead a given root could be extended to describe different kinds of the same animal, as in udu "sheep", uduhursang "species of wild sheep", udukurra "highland sheep", udunita "ram", uduuligi "coarse-wool sheep", udusara "perfect-quality sheep" etc.

This is not to be confused with the use of animal determinatives, which were written but not pronounced. For example, most if not all birds are written with the sign 𒄷 after them, meaning "bird"; though 𒄷 alone means mushen "bird", it wouldn't be pronounced in a word like 𒄷𒌷𒅔𒄷 huriin "eagle". Similarly, the sign 𒄩 is used after fish, but ku "fish" wouldn't be pronounced in the spoken language.

[sumerianlanguage]

Hi I've been loving reading your posts, and I am working on translating the godly bird entities huginn and munnin from Norse mythology to sumerian cuneiform. Huginn can be translated to thought, perception, eyes, and Muninn to memory or mind. I currently have igi ngar dingir(superscript) for Huginn and ngeshtug ngar dingir(superscript) Muninn. I feel there may be an issue using the verbal ngar in a proper noun but that's just a hunch. Also if you could post the cuneiform I would be most grateful!

Hi, and thanks for the kind words!

It looks like you're on the right track. Igi ngar is "to look at, contemplate" as a verb - but you can use the noun igi for "eye(s), sight" in both a literal and metaphoric sense. Similarly, ngeshtug ngar is "to pay attention, consider", from ngeshtug "ears, hearing, understanding". I like the idea of just using igi and ngeshtug as the translations, meaning "eyes and ears" but also "perception and comprehension".

For cuneiform, the superscript "dingir" 𒀭 (the deity determinative) goes before the name of the deity, not after. So in cuneiform, igi (deity) would be 𒀭𒅆, and ngeshtug (deity) would be 𒀭𒉿.