#fandom xenophobia

[spite-and-waffles]

I really hate this new trope of Ilya letting go of his surname and taking Shane's because he hates his family. The man is an immigrant. His surname is more than his family, it's his identity as a Russian. The fact that USAmericans think you can just dump your entire homeland because of homophobia is an idea born of their own imperialism and hegemonic self-aggrandizement.

(Incidentally, stop with the "where did you even learn that??". ESL speakers aren't dogs doing tricks.)

[jyndor]

just saw someone say those of us who are criticizing andor should stop yapping and start organizing in our local communities, and how we apparently do not give a shit about fascism since we are wasting time yapping and not acting

i stg left liberals, andor is not gonna radicalize anyone. the revolution will not be televised. and it certainly will not be televised on disney+ which is literally on the bds list. if any andor stan still has a disney+ subscription, you're not just not doing revolution, you're not even doing the easiest sort of resistance that is available to us.

frankly im not gonna talk about what organizing i am doing online in a climate where actual resistance is getting people disappeared. my friend just got doxxed by zionists. im not waiting for tony gilroy, who won't even use his significant platform and power to denounce genocide and call out his own industry for silencing opposition to genocide.

talking about a show fumbling the bag is just doing fan shit. it is not activism, but educating each other on issues that we may not know as much about is a good and helpful thing that we can then use to think about real world shit. or at least it should, but this is the star wars fandom so i expect at least 70% of you don't even understand the actual decent political points the show manages to make in spite of being a contradictory mess of vague libposting doused in latent misogyny, racism and xenophobia.

[horizon-verizon]

The fact that so many people think the Starks are honorable anticolonial fighters and the pinnacle of morality is absolutely insane, they literally built a massive wall to isolated a bunch of people they considered as “savages”, they hunted and slaughtered the Free Folk, the Children of the Forest, giants, exterminated whole houses and clans and took their daughters as “prizes” while conquering the North, etc. The Blackwoods were originally from the North and ruled most of the wolfswood, before being driven out by the Starks and forced to flee south. The Starks are the OG COLONIZERS in ASOIAF.

Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever. — The World of Ice and Fire – The North: The Kings of Winter.

I recently finished a Tiktok series that will probably just be as lost to the internet if we lose TikTok but I had to get out in response to a particular creator who bashes Rhaenyra while also proclaiming themselves as black stans. I think they are really more black stans because they hate Alicent personally and feels the thrill of the side-taking, but that's neither here nor there. 😏

#stitch with @fantasticfrankey I won't be restitching the prior video, that would give me more work. And I don't want this series to take as much time as my Rhaena Queen Dowager one. #targaryen #targaryens #thetargaryens #westerosihistory #westeros #asoiaf #asoiaftiktok #fyp #dragons #westerostiktok #rhaenyratargaryen #alicenthightower #danceofthedragons #fireandblood #houseofthedragon #hotd

To quote one of my mutuals here [rhaenin]:

It just rings so familiar to the way so many people view the other in real life. Because the Targaryens are overtly, and intentionally written as the other. It's the reason so many people identify with them, and it's the very same reason that other people vilify them. They're not just the in-universe other to the 'default' culture established in the text, but they're also given characteristics that we, the reader and audience, can recognize as other and even sometimes anathema to Western Christian culture. To paraphrase the annoying people that love to cite Ramsay when they feel like it: If you look at a morally complex family surrounded by other morally complex families in a morally complex world in a story that's famed for seeking to challenge your underlying assumptions, and think that their association with fire and brimstone is meant to signify their singular satanic evilness, rather than say... challenge that very Eurocentric assumption, you haven't been paying attention. This vilification mindset where the Targaryens are the singular evil of Westeros is so common to people who seem to want to consume ASoIaF without engaging with the criticisms of the Eurocentric worldview of history at the heart of it. And they end up using the convenient “others” to project all the wrongs of that world onto so they don't need to examine it any deeper. ........... It comes from the same place with how someone pointed out that the baffling bastardphobia that would have medieval peasants giving the side eye is so often people jumping at the chance to “cosplay” as bigots who base their arguments in misogyny and bio-essentialism. Because it's an acceptable channel to indulge in that mindset in a way that they'd often otherwise question, or at least hold back from expressing out of caution.

[anupalya]

Dinluke Dialogue

This started as a reblogged response to this original post, but I think it works as a standalone too!

I think what might happen every time these discussions arise in the Dinluke fandom is that whatever gets said ends up going through the Anti Funhouse Mirror before it becomes an onslaught of anon hate, or otherwise gets distorted when shared around from the actual message being given by those most impacted and trying to speak about their own experiences, like an awful game a telephone. Here are some links that helped me understand what was going on. I will primarily be pointing towards the words of those who are best qualified to speak on these topics as they are primarily affected by these issues.

(note:  I am a POC fan and a queer fan, but not MLM or Latine, so I may summarize but am mostly linking to centralize them and elevate their voices. Thank you to everyone whose work was linked, and who also advised and gave feedback).

I also want to say that yes, fingers were ABSOLUTELY pointed towards specific genres and writers (and may still be), but this scapegoating has been checked (in the links I have given) and the dialogue largely returned to its original intent.  I also want to acknowledge that it was in no way okay that anyone received anon hate or threats.

The Issues

Pedro Pascal: Race vs Ethnicity

It has been clarified after some initial misconceptions, by white Latine voices, that yes, Pedro Pascal IS White Latino.  He still experiences xenophobia because of that, and fandom racism can still occur around this when Din’s skin is darkened while also portraying Latine stereotypes in the same work.  I encourage you to check out this explanation of what ends up happening.

Anti-Latine Racism and Xenophobia in Fic

Early on, this conversation mutated when dark fic started to be centered. This should not have happened. Dark fic existing as a genre in and of itself is no issue and not the one being discussed (and anyone who was saying that was distorting the point).  Fic rules are kink rules (and to be very clear, I personally am both dark-fic-positive and kink-positive)!  The issue brought up is when Din being characterized in Latine stereotypes is the dominant Pattern, not just Din being an abuser in dark fic, but Din also being consistently shown as aggressive and "macho" in vanilla fic, as well as his ethnicity being heavily fetishized (once again, please see the link above, as well as this one).  When that is pretty much the common thread through most of the material that exists (and yes there are exceptions, but it takes work to find them), fandom spaces become hostile places to minority groups who are affected by microaggressions and dehumanization every day.

"Bottom" and GNC Luke

For this one, the point is not against Luke taking a "bottom" position in bed in a fic, or Luke in a dress in its own right (and anyone saying that has drastically distorted the point – there are some AWESOME works in this fandom that showcase gender nonconformity!)

Please see here for an explanation of the "bottom" issue. 

And please see here for the nuances of the dress issue and GNC portrayals (of which there are some awesome ones out there!) being discussed.

And here as well for expansion on that. 

And more on application of heteronormativity to queer pairings as the fandom "default," and their defaults in fandoms in general. 

To summarize these above links:  it's not portrayals of gender non-conformity or being on the receiving end of anal penetrative sex in and of themselves, it's the characteristics of "bottom" and gender nonconformity being consistently and heavily conflated with characteristics of weakness, submissiveness, and archetypal femininity, in a way that if it were applied to a female character, it would clearly be sexist (and it already is sexist when applied to an MLM character).  It's the consistent conflation of "luke in a dress" with "must mean he's 'the bottom' and 'submissive and innocent.'"  It's also the fact that there is a Default character in this pairing that such characteristics are given to, even when done respectfully in their own right (e.g. there are fics where Luke bottoming is just Luke bottoming, no bearing on his personality, but the fact that it HEAVILY skews towards Luke when looking at fic percentages is an overall Pattern).  Just as above, when these are the default patterns and common threads in a huge percentage of material (vanilla, dark, otherwise) fandom becomes a hostile space for those who constantly experience microaggressions and bigotry in everyday life.

Finger-Pointing and Scapegoating

The person who originally said "louder and meaner" has since apologized for centering dark fic and taken accountability for their mistakes in the conversation, and has clarified what they meant by "louder and meaner."  I won't speak for them, but will link their apology post below.  However, I'll also leave you with some links to people again clarifying that this conversation should never have pointed fingers towards a specific genre or specific people as solely responsible:  

Apology and accountability post 

Other posts referenced: Here

Here

and here (same link as shown in point 4) 

And of course, there are plenty of more supporting posts than what I have pasted above!

In Summary

This conversation is not about who is “allowed” to write or read queer characters, or characters of various races and ethnicities and nationalities, or fic showcasing dark topics.  It also is not about what genres are “good” or “bad,” or saying writers of one genre specifically are at fault for the overall fandom trends.  If arguments of that nature have reached you (I've seen some), they are distortions of the intent (and many of those who initially pointed fingers have checked themselves and listened when told this was not okay and not the intent, and not even accurate, and have re-engaged with the discussion with the intent to learn).  It’s also not an accusation of bigotry of any individual.

Overall it is a call for introspection, for recognition of implicit biases pushed by mainstream society that we have defaulted to and currently dominate the ship, and for recognition that this dominance actively pushes microaggressions in unavoidable, unfilterable, and demeaning ways at marginalized fans and prevents them from taking part in fandom without having to endure the stereotypes that pervade their everyday lives.  While there are definitely amazing works in the fandom that do not fit the descriptions I have linked and summarized above, they unfortunately aren’t the norm in the culture just yet.  I strongly believe that for the vast majority of fans, the harm is unintentional, but the harm is also very real.

Niche fic and content that is not for everyone and is not intended to reflect reality will always exist and has a right to exist, and individual fics and works in their own right do not a Pattern make. However, this post describes the dominant trends in fandom (not just ours!), and it is which trends that emerge as dominant that reveal how we collectively are at least subconsciously still perceiving MLM and Latine people, and this is what we perpetuate by remaining uncritical of these trends.

It is also true that no minority is a monolith, and it may be asked who gets to decide where "the line" is drawn. My own answer to that, speaking only as myself, is that it's messy for sure, there will always be debate and discussion, no two people will always agree, etc. Imperfect works also have a right to exist, and the “perfect” should never be made the enemy of the “good.”  The point is that we make a good-faith effort and be willing to listen, because so much of what is presented does not stem from specific malicious intent to drive out marginalized voices. No content will be for everyone, but until we listen and learn, very little content will be 'for' the people who have been speaking on this for so long, people who resemble the marginalized identities the ship portrays in real life. And in the meantime, stereotypes will endure.

This is a very good post, both the original, where that post's OP describes the "death of the author" and "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" ideas of engaging with content in general fandom, which I strongly agree with, as well as the reblog by that OP last year, clarifying that this does not mean that sensitive topics or minorities should not be approached with consideration, respect, and intentionality in fan works, or that stereotyping should be ignored, no matter who is posting.

Here are links to people who have specifically offered to engage with those seeking to learn how to portray MLM and Latine characters without falling back on stereotypes:

softieskywalker

Withercrown

Thank you for your time.

[autistichwsamerica]

To add on to the reason why him being canonically mixed is actually like A Big Thing:

I cant remember if It was stated in the anime but in his character bio he is ALWAYS stated to be part Arabic. So a good part of him is Mideastern, not to mention hes closest to (northern) Africa and probably shares some ancestry from there too (at least from a historical standpoint). He also has a darker complexion which unfortunately gets whitewashed a lot especially by Studio Dean (same people that made Seychelles white).

Because of these things I think he gets shoved a lot into that "violent moc" stereotype even in canon but almost 99% of the time by the fandom.

As an American I cant speak a lot about this from a personal note but I know that from a historical standpoint and what actually southern Italians have said is that people from S. Italy tend to get discriminate against by northern Italians. Also Im pretty sure Italians werent considered "white" until like the 1950s (at least here in America).

Theres also that weird racist thing where people in this fandom are OBSESSED with the M*fia. Like dont even get me started on how racist that actually is. Than again this is the same fandom that likes to romanticize WW2 and nazisim occassionally so..

Also people on tumblr just hate/mock italians in general for some reason and that just confuses me so much like ???

This man is also like...super fucking poor too, so add some classism to it as well while we're (I'm) at it lol. He's also an immigrant in multiple ways and multiple times throughout history so theres some xenophobia to boot

please direct any and all future hate anons over to @rosethreeart please and thank you. :)

Sorry this man gets so much hate for no reason and it makes me sad hes such a sad little meow meow who deserves to be held gently </3

Yeah, it's literally stated in the manga that Romano is mixed. I know a lot of the fandom doesn't read the manga, but they really, really should. (Also, didn't Studio Deen whitewash Egypt as well, or am I misremembering?)

While Romano has legitimate reasons to have a temper, it shouldn't be overlooked that he does something get boxed into the "angry moc" trope. But yeah, it's way worse in the fandom.

Yeah, I've heard southern Italians say that, too. And the 1950s lines up with what I've read.

God, I've noticed that too. Like, what is this fandom's obsession with the m*fia. And it's always so glamorized? But yeah, given some of the other stuff this fandom glamorizes, maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

Yeah, I've noticed that. It's not racism since Italians have been considered white since the 1950s, but anti-Italian sentiment is still not...good.

Exactly! Classism factors into the fandom's treatment of Romano, as does being anti-immigrant/xenophobic.

I'll keep that in mind, thank you!

And yes, Romano deserves so much better from this fandom.

[enby-axels]

i'm still not over how some random fs fan claimed chinese fanyus dressed in pooh costumes defaced an olympic memorial wall or something. again, with zero (0) evidence, so we're seeing a pattern here. and everybody instantly believed it,,,, yall fucking suck

but when i say fs fandom is full of bigots, i'm the bad guy

[dazzledfirestar]

Can we stop calling Romani fancasts of Wanda and Pietro (though I’ve only yet to see Wanda ones...) “racebending” because it’s not.

It’s correcting fucking whitewashing.

It’s not the same thing as cast Steve or Tony as a black man or Natasha a Japanese woman.

Please stop calling it that... please? The characters ARE ROMANI. In canon. The only people fucking around with their race is the fucking garbage racists that wanna make them white.