#iy discourse

[bakugouisabitch]

it’s fucking sad how this sequel is making us all talk and wonder and calculate and HOPE that a CHILD is NOT the mother of the protagonists instead of like,, who survived????? who inherited what power?? why does this strange event happen?? where is Jaken?????

[boycottyashahime]

Alright, so I’m bad at Tumblr, and though I wanted to just reblog the original post from @strawberrycreampiefluff and put most of it under a cut or perhaps find a way to trim it, I couldn’t find a way to make it work. So, we’re starting a new thread. Here’s the link the other one if anyone reading hasn’t been following the discussion and want to catch up: https://strawberrycreampiefluff.tumblr.com/post/625063196626223104/what-do-you-think-of-this-whole-ppl-shipping

Anyhow, since we discussed this beforehand, I’ll start from the beginning, only working with the storytelling elements from the series, and I’ll leave out the latter part of the post regarding moralizing (which I mostly agree with anyway, so it’s no loss to me).

“I  was trying to convey that considering the methods of storywriting and telling,  it would break the “pattern” Rumiko Takashi built up and lowering the  impact of Sessh character growth he would later experience.  A father-daughter bond is not inferior to a romantic bond, but it  would seem out of place, to have both his father and brother form a  romantic relationship with a human and then Sessh breaking that pattern  by introducing a new kind of relationship-dynamic - when he is the most  crucial character in the series when it comes to demon-human relations.”

I’m still quite unclear HOW the impact of Sesshomaru’s character growth is necessarily lowered from not having a romantic bond with a human. Why is the continuation of this pattern so important, in your view, to the character’s development? From my perspective, introducing a new relationship dynamic into and breaking patterns is actually a good thing in stories - It’s a great way to add variety and a different point of view to a narrative. Having characters take a pattern in a different, unique direction can add meaning in a way the reader couldn’t see coming, give the story unexpected dimension.

And you’ve already said that you and other shippers like yourself don’t see anything romantic while Rin is still a child in the original series, so that is effectively what happened. Since we agree that the relationship wasn’t actually romantic within the context of the original Inuyasha series, Sesshomaru took a love of a human in an entirely different direction than his father or his brother did. Which conveys complexity in how youkai can relate to humans that wasn’t in the established pattern. As a reader, I find that kind of thing fun and engaging, though you may disagree.

“A father-daughter relationship would still put Sessh in a superior position to Rin (as the father), not adding a lot to his character development other than him caring for one other human being.”

I have to wince here, because while yes, technically Sesshomaru is in a superior position to Rin in a father-daughter relationship, the implication here is that this can be compared to the sense of superiority he had over humans as a whole that you referenced earlier. Is a parent-child relationship really comparable to a racist outlook? I feel like these two things are quite unrelated, having two ENTIRELY different connotations from the word “superior”. One is an entirely natural superior position, using one’s greater experience, knowledge, and ability to facilitate the growth and guidance of someone still on their way up. The other is a wholly unnatural and malicious disregard for a person based on superficial features. Sesshomaru’s superior attitude toward humans before he met Rin was not based on a paternalistic concern, but complete disgust and the notion that they were entirely unworthy of consideration. The two connotations of “superior” here are just not analogous in the greater narrative.

“In a romantic relationship, both partners should be equals (anything  other is unacceptable), for this to happen Sessh would’ve had to lower himself  (his pride) to Rins level, since he was the one with the big ego and  humans were regarded as one of the lower creatures of the food chain.”

Again, I think it is entirely possible for Sesshomaru to learn not to regard humans as “lower on the food chain” through a relationship that ISN’T romance, but that aside, this whole notion brings up a question: why didn’t Rumiko Takahashi write Rin into the story as a young adult? We’ve already discussed how romantic implications to the relationship couldn’t exist while she’s still a child in the series, and why Sesshomaru and Rin are definitely NOT equal during the series. So if it was so important for Sesshomaru to be otherwise equal to Rin so he can lower his pride and truly consider her such, why was Rin not written as a fully autonomous adult so we could cut to the chase? It seems that if what you’re describing was really Rumiko Takahashi’s intent, it would have been a lot easier if the girl was already grown up. At the very least, our dear author could have ended the series when Rin was an appropriate age to actually make the point instead of leaving it hanging.

“Doing the exact same thing he criticized his father for, which  for him would’ve been humiliating in the beginning of the series. The  sequel (if you regard it as canon) goes even farther, making him create  his own half demons - the very reason he hated his brother in the first  place. His mother even said he becomes like his father in the strangest  ways - and the only “strange” thing we know about his father was his  romantic relationship with Izayoi.”

Since English isn’t your first language, I’m guessing you’re just mistaken in the map of this sentence, but the word “strange” here is referring to Sesshomaru’s behavior in relation to his father’s. What is strange is how Sesshomaru is like his father, not his father’s ways. This actually makes the opposite point - it seems to refer to the ways in which Sesshomaru is behaving as odd, maybe in relation to a pattern his father fit into.

“That’s why I think it wouldn’t fall apart if we draw the parallel in a wider context as you say, because other characters didn’t have the same starting point  as Sessh. I very much agree with you, that Inuyasha’s platonic bonds  would also count as a dog forming close bonds with humans, but in  Inuyasha’s or Shippou’s case, they didn’t need the same character  development like Sessh, since they had a different attitude towards  humans or “lesser-beings” in the first place (Inuyasha was even past the  stage of lowering himself, also out of romantic reasons btw, since he  was ready to become human for Kikyo).”

I’m curious as to how the parallel and pattern matter if it’s null and void because Inuyasha and the other characters we talked about have different character arcs. Of course they aren’t starting from the same place as Sesshomaru, characters never do. They’re varied and diverse because it would be boring as tar to write them all going through the same issues. My point about the parallel was that even if it could be said that there’s some similarity in how dog YOUKAI form bonds with humans to actual DOGS, it’s not really a good parallel, because there are other “species” of youkai much less friendly with humans doing it too. I’m having trouble understanding what this argument has to do with that.

In reference to the above, I agree, the example characters you cited didn’t have the same level of dismissive racism as Sesshomaru did (I say “same level” because Shippou does carry a bit of prejudice, even as a small child), but when that’s apparent, why is the pattern even relevant? Since the characters aren’t set to all learn the same lesson, their relationships shouldn’t really resemble each other’s in the long run either, should they? Writers use relationships as tools for character development, and they usually want to use the right tool for the right job. Maybe romantic love with a human was right for Inuyasha because he had issues with vulnerability and reconciling his half-heritage. What if SESSHOMARU benefited more as a character from an unconditional bond (free from the conditions of sexual/romantic attraction) to demonstrate to him how even the weakest creature is incomprehensibly valuable for reasons impossible to articulate, and they are worth using his incredible level of “superior” power to protect and defend them? It’s a different kind of humbling oneself than what you were talking about, but I think it’s just as meaningful, and it fits Sesshomaru’s character development neatly into the the original text. It doesn’t require Sunrise make a sequel more than a decade later to wrap up the character development that Rumiko Takahashi meant to do when Rin grew up even though she could have just written her in as an adult in the first place.

“But Rin will obviously not always stay 8/11 years old, she will grow  into her own person and become a woman (while living apart from Sessh),  creating a completely different power dynamic with Sessh. One that would  still be an imbalance, but much different than when she was a child.”

As far as the narrative was concerned, Rin COULD very well have stayed a child forever, though. She was written as a character in a story. When the story is done, so are the characters. You’ve said before and here that Inuyasha is just fiction, and it is, but accepting that means accepting that Rin doesn’t grow up without some prompting. She doesn’t age but through the hand of a creator, fanfiction authors or Sunrise. When you say she’s not going to stay 8-11 forever, what you mean is that actual humans who experience actual time are not satisfied with her age as it stood when the story ended, and actively impose time upon her.

And since applying time to a fictional character is something that has to be intentional, so too do the conditions you mention to create the perfect environment for the ship. The different dynamic that isn’t father-daughter, but still a little bit of not-weird power imbalance. The “lowering” of Sesshomaru’s ego in that specific romantic way (that I’m still not sure I understand, but we’ll go with it). The way in which the romance is developed without either character realizing it so that Sesshomaru can’t be accused of using the power imbalance to manipulate a girl he’s had authority over since she was eight. Returning to what catalyzed the change in Sesshomaru in the first place while carefully treading around the fact that it was built upon an unconditional relationship that now suddenly has conditions on it. That’s a lot of mental legwork to do, which is fine, because that’s part of creative expression. But you have to acknowledge that none of this would be necessary if the pairing were “obvious”.

It certainly wasn’t very obvious to some of us. We came to a very different conclusion, saw everything a bit differently. Now we’re being punished for having a less popular interpretation of this relationship, shut down by SUNRISE and told that we don’t get to have that interpretation, because they’re considered an authority on what is canon in Inuyasha, and they’re taking sides to squeeze more money out of the Inuyasha franchise with a next-gen sequel. It doesn’t seem to matter that Sunrise was never really very good at telling Inuyasha stories, or that next-gen sequels never seem to be any good for lack of stakes and boring plots.

Sunrise’s interpretation is still considered to be more “valid” than ours. And that really hurts. So, if you found yourself wondering why there’s so much vitriol coming from the anti camp, it’s a combination of this, and the fact that they don’t really have the option of avoiding the content they don’t like anymore. It’s kind of EVERYWHERE now.

So, there we are. I don’t want to give the impression from the above that I’m trying to tear apart your arguments to somehow discredit the pairing. Shippers gonna ship, whether it makes sense to me or not. But I did want to highlight how any of the things you bring up can very well be interpreted entirely differently.

Hope you’re doing well, and you did well on that exam. :)

[bakugouisabitch]

I’ve been staying away from that show because I’ve been so nervous but oh no, they really went there?

I was once torn but now it’s clear. 1# best friends with Naraku.

I am a wreck rn but yea they really went there.... i have stopped watching the show since like episode 5 but i still kinda followed what was going on.....

And yes. In this house we support Naraku only now. He was right and he should have killed them all when he had the chance . at least that abomination would have never happened...

[bakugouisabitch]

Yo I cannot watch it look at inuyasha the same anymore and sesshomaru is just a ugly mtf to me now fuck him he’s a fucking ugly pedophile! Sunrise ruined his character I’ll never forgive them for that you no what’s worse is that rumiko just let this happened to her own series and doesn’t give 2 fucks. Also one of the directors is like a sessrin shippers just ewwww all around hope sunrise burns down to the ground loses viewers ships and money!

The only thing able to give me happiness right now is the idea of that studio being burned down to the ground tbh it geniuinely makes me smile ngl

[bakugouisabitch]

1/2 okay maybe it's just me being naive & trying to hold out hope but I really hate how the whole fandom, both antis and shippers alike are automatically jumping to the conclusion that Rin's the mother now. First off, the twin girls still look nothing like her compared to Moroha who looks like a clear mix between InuKag.

SESSHOMARU IS A FEMINIST!!!!!! YES!!!

This is honestly one of the main reasons why i fucking loved sesshomaru so much! If he kills people they are mostly bandits (who we know were pretty infamous to harass/hurt women among other atrocities), he killed that creep Mukotsu when he tried to harass Kagome, he protected Rin from wolves (actually brought her back to life), and was always respectful towards women - like that one example of Kagura you mentioned. RT painted him as this dangerous demon we‘re not sure if we can trust at the beginning, but throughout the series/manga you notice him for actions like that, which are, like, righteous (even if executed in a gruesome manner) and it brings you to never really hate him. He sipped that respect women juice and YES SESSHOMARU IS A HERO. ICONIC FEMINIST. And if they‘re going to ruin him in the sequel it just won‘t do. It‘s cancelled. #notmysesshomaru

[bakugouisabitch]

I'm pretty sure Rin isn't the mother based on the new trailer and a specific character: Hisui. He might be one of the various children Miroku wanted to have, but it's more likely he's the baby we see at the end of Inuyasha Kanketsu-Hen. You know, the baby that Rin helped deliver? Taking a look at him, he does not seem to be much older than the twins, Towa and Setsuna. He's 16 max. So based on the age proximity between Hisui and the twins, Rin would still be too young to mother the twins.

dear anons, you’re so right. This and many other reasons (the fight with the root demon being connected to the plot, Kaede still being alive after 14 years, the little sister of Towa/daughter of Sōta) makes me think that the sequel’s beginning is set not too many years apart from where we left it off at the end of the final act. Rin was just too young back then to be considered to be a mother (most of all when it’s with a partner who is 10+ years older than her). 

As long as nothing is official I am not going to make any definite claims, BUT for Sunrise to be going to such risky and reaching lengths just to make sessrin canon seems pretty improbable to me. There’s literally just a 1% fear in me left because you never know how stupid these people working there could be. But we should never forget that the world doesn’t evolve around those shippers, Inuyasha was never made just to please people who ship the half brother of the protagonist and an orphan child he finds, and the sequel was also not made for this sick idea because it’s clearly obvious who the protagonists are: the children. Sessrin would take too much of the focus away. It would ruin InuKag’s dynamic, and for Rumiko to allow her protagonists dynamic to be smeared even in the slightest ways, just to please a side ship, seems also too improbable for me...

Ever since I heard that RT is much more involved into the series than I originally though my hopes have grown higher. She would never ruin her biggest success like that. I tell you, most points are going exactly against sessrin being canon, naturally so, but well, you know stupid decisions never fails to impress i guess... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bakugouisabitch]

I'm at a point where I genuinenly do not care if they make up a chep and unlikely story of Sesshomaru falling for a random woman just as long as the mother isn't Rin. It's devastating how this one single doubt is hindering me from fully enjoying this series that is coming.

I honestly couldn’t care if the mom was a mean charceter or in fact cheaply written and with a cheesy concept, just DON’T make Sesshomaru a PREDATOR I s2g.

[bakugouisabitch]

Rin is sister of towa and Setsuna