#ludora

[foursaints]

forever thinking about ludora arranged marriage au actually

[demonlordclayman]

Big meta post I'm finally getting around to writing! This has been in the works for a while.

I'm going to focus on Rimuru, Yuuki, and Ludora (and naturally tie it back to Clayman's Revenge). All three of them, in some way, want to control the world. I see Yuuki and Ludora at opposing ends, with Rimuru in the middle.

^ a rough summary of what we're going to discuss

Ludora wants to control the world in order to prove to Veldanava and Guy that humankind can unite as one (LN 16). He is focused on a very broad goal, and doesn't necessarily care about the details so long as it's achieved (more so once his ideals get corrupted over time). It isn't about his friends - just dominating the world to prove that humanity can unite as one.

Yuuki on the other wants to control the world so he and his friends can have fun. It doesn't seem to matter to him too much what kind of world he creates, so long as he controls it. This is why I put them at opposite ends of the spectrum - Ludora cares about the world, and Yuuki cares about his friends, and they don't have much overlap between these goals.

And that puts Rimuru in the middle. He cares about his friends over everyone else, but he's not abandoning the world, and his list of friends is steadily growing. He cares about the state of the world, wanting to expand his network rather than dominating. This to me is the balance between Yuuki and Ludora, and I think that's intentional, and it's why he's so successful.

Additionally, all of these people are very strong, and I find the differences in how that plays into their motivations pretty interesting too. Ludora was already strong at the time he decided to take on his goal of uniting everyone. Yuuki was crafty, but not exceptionally strong at first, and I think his thirst for power plays a significant role in his motivation. Rimuru becomes strong as a result of wanting to protect his friends, rather than for strength itself. It's just an interesting comparison, and I think it lines up with this scale I've created for them.

I think it's also interesting to note that all three of these people are or were humans. Humanity is the driving force of the story still, in many ways, despite how weak humans are on average compared to every other creature.

Changing the topic slightly, in LN 14 Laplace actually thinks that when Rimuru is talking about friendship, he's mocking Yuuki.

To Laplace, as learned from Yuuki, world domination is necessary to make the world a place where they can all live together. In many ways, this isn't that different from Ludora. But Rimuru doesn't believe world domination is right, and that he can achieve peace for his people without it.

So to summarize my broad meta point, I think Rimuru represents moderation and balance of viewpoints and concerns in the story, and his success suggests that this is one of the morals of the story.

Now, I'm the Clayman blog, so without further ado...

What does this mean in context of Clayman's Revenge?

Clayman at the start of Revenge is at the far left of the spectrum, with Yuuki. However, I would argue he's somewhere between Rimuru and Yuuki now.

I've theorized before that Clayman's Revenge is about Clayman becoming more like Rimuru, and thus being successful. This comparison only emphasizes that point, to me. It also makes me wonder if Kazalim was actually in a similar place on the spectrum I've devised, prior to meeting Yuuki.

This part from chapter 30 is what makes me think this might be the case, and also made me realize I don't have a good grasp on Kazalim's character, so I hope we get more of him/Kagali.

In short, I anticipate Clayman will continue shifting towards a more Rimuru-like viewpoint in Revenge. I don't know what meaning I can draw from that at this point, since we don't know where Revenge is really going, but this is all lining up pretty well to me, imo.

That said, the biggest question this brings up for me is how Yuuki will interact with this new Clayman that's developing as a result of Revenge. Will this cause a conflict? We're very far away from this timeline wise, but it's one of my biggest questions.

Have some thoughts? Share em with me!

[foursaints]

saints i'm starving for ludora... my beautiful odd blonde babies...

they actually make me like borderline suicidal. BLONDE PEOPLE TORMENTING EACH OTHER!!

[foursaints]

i need to hear more about lucius and pandora. you are insane for coming up with this ship. it's amazing. did they ever actually date or was it just mutual obssession that never evolved in anything more, but they both knew and never got over it? did it affect his relationship with narcissa? did he see pandora in cissa?

okay i’ll take this as permission to yap because!! they’re always in my brain. i see the ludora thesis as: two characters who are entirely different, but who are both utterly convinced they’re Smarter Than Everyone Else Around Them. what conflict stems from that? what connection?

it was always just mutual obsession. sneaking around at the very most, but nothing publicly Real. to me, they end up married to narcissa & xeno respectively because narcissa & xeno are like… the socially acceptable versions of each other?

in my head xeno is a lot older than pandora (7-10 years), and he’s very kind, but too absentminded to be an attentive husband, and she likes him for a lot of reasons. but she’s also subconsciously like… Maybe this could resemble lu if i squint. meanwhile lucius has convinced himself that his rich lesbian wife is everything he’s ever wanted (she actually Obeys him!! unlike pan!!!) & it only takes him 3 years to realize he fucking hates this. they both got Exactly what they said they wanted, which is the opposite of each other. because they can’t stand each other. but they’re miserable.

like…. lucius should have been pandora’s ornery stay-at-home trophy husband she drags on expeditions for rare potion ingredients. they’re an Adventure Couple™️. him with his head wrapped in a mosquito net in a jungle wearing designer shoes, bitching at his beautiful wife at the top of his LUNGS, swinging a machete at vines (<- guy who has never been happier) (he is shouting: DO NOT TEST ME, WOMAN!!!!!, she is shouting: you are such AN INFANT !!!!!!!!, and they’re aggressively making out against a tree)

you have to imagine lucius at a posh ministry function being sooo smug about it too. he’s like “Ah yes, my wife, THE PROFESSOR, is publishing a book on MANDRAKES this month, arent you, darling?” while pandora is soooo thrilled to have a captive audience to subject to her rants about her publications. completely insufferable couple. united by thinking they’re better than everyone else (except? they are? i think they maybe actually are.)

+ remind yourself that this ship could ultimately result in Draco & Luna being brother and sister. so perfect. except none of this ever happened because they never let themselves be together.

[foursaints]

Who do you ship Pandora with, if anyone? And how do you imagine her dynamic with said person?

lily, probably!

alright now that we’re hiding under the cut, let’s talk about the secret real answer. this is genuinely a diabolical Hear Me Out & we’re all pinky promising to put our delusion hats on okay….

lowkey…. it’s lucius malfoy 😭 i believe they ruined each other for all other people. it’s a haughty stuck-up social climbing failson & the strange sickly carnivorous girlinventor who haunts his waking dreams and nightmares.

LISTEN!!!! i know i sound completely bonkers but i’m entranced by the idea of a younger lucius (with much less status and wealth before his marriage into the black family), who is much scrappier & angrier & more pathetic & desperate & obsessed with upward class mobility & completely insane. he’s still the Worst, he’s just a lot more pitiful and unhinged and his obsequiousness is genuinely embarrassing.

and then there is pandora, who only has her brother, who turned down the option of being heir to an ancient pureblood house, who is as freakish & uncaring of other’s opinions as anyone can get . who is just as angry as him. and he pisses her off

i think they would hate each other but i also think she would sneak that smarmy slytherin weirdo into the greenhouse & he would kick petulantly at an overturned flowerpot & she might brush his hair back from his face. they would hate each other but he would be disgustingly in love with her (without admitting it) and she’d be surprised whenever he acted like a gentleman. she likes his ambition for political power and he likes hers for invention. i NEED to see lucius tortured with love for a disheveled hippie ravenclaw….

it’s bohemian artist x sleazy politician!!! it’s evilwife x pathetic cringefail husband!!!!! she could fix him (get him to share a blunt with her)!!!! they would never publicly associate with each other of course, but there’s a really combative mutual fondness / fascination there.

they’re coriolanus snow x lucy gray baird variants

[foursaints]

Just one ask and you have me hooked on Pandora/Lucius. I can't find anything on that ship. 🥺🥺 Feed me some crumbs plssss🥺🥺🥺

they’re literally just this image

ok let’s get into it…. to me, this all stems from the idea that i personally find pandora’s story more compelling if she’s with another death eater. her choice to stay out of the war is one of the few pieces of characterization we have — i don’t really like it when she’s with an order member, because it almost casts her decision as a choice of “my lover vs my brother”. i want both of pandora’s loyalties on the same side, and for her to ultimately choose herself

secondly, i want to emphasize pandora’s goodness bc it distinguishes her from evan. it’s a tricky needle to thread because pandora can be such a violent, ugly character (she’s a rosier!!) and i don’t want to see her softened or redeemed. i want her with someone worse, or bad in different ways, in whose life she can play a redemptive role despite her shortcomings. insert that “my very own honey-haired angel of death” quote

i like it when two characters who suck can make each other better specifically by having flaws that run in opposite directions… i see pandora & lucius as sad because of that. they shouldn’t have enjoyed each other as much as they did

lucius’s flop marriage to his lesbian wife hits a little differently if you consider pandora. maybe for ONCE in his miserable shallow life he grabbed ahold of something that was wild and magic and different and unfamiliar and REAL. then he lost it forever and never experienced anything similar ever again.

i think he thinks sometimes. that if he weren’t an heir, or if she wasn’t another in the sacred 28, or if they weren’t wizards at all- they could have kept sneaking around and arguing and incensing each other until they wound up doing it married. and sometimes he wonders if it would have been better to come home to a little flat instead of a pureblood manor, to a wife that would have swatted him on the head and called him an idiot. he thinks he would have rolled up his sleeves to help with her experiments.

and pandora marries xeno!! who is interesting and passionate and kind to her, and NEVER judgmental, and who couldn’t be more different from lucius. she tells herself that she loves being with someone smart and good-hearted and friendly, who she can really respect. she is happy, probably.

except lucius was nasty and contemptuous and stuck up and smug and soo judgmental and demanding and arrogant and conniving and essentially impossible to get along with, but he never once BORED her. and he made her laugh like nobody else. and he was capable of fully understanding her. she probably remembers that over & over

[foursaints]

so basically what you're saying is that Pandora is Lucy gray ( except she's literally a biblically accurate angel who's so off putting and rot-like that you can't help want to pray at her feet) and lucius is coriolanus snow and Pandora is literally the girl that haunts him, his every waking decision, his every moment of "peace" who he sees reflected in his child's face the first time he casts a bit of dark magic, the girl who he'll never get rid of?? or am I totally off the mark?

you understand perfectly. and it looks exactly like this

[foursaints]

pls please talk about ludora more i beg

i’ve been thinking a lot about them and their contrasting relationships to public image & how they’re more similar than they realize. LUDORA IS ALWAYS MATCHING EACH OTHER’S FREAK!!!

i like the fanon of pandora as luna-esque & quirky. but i think that unlike luna, pan actually really DOES care about what others think of her… she likes being eccentric and different! but she presents herself that way on purpose! she’s an inventor, she’s original, a visionary, and she has a pretty big ego about it. she’s quiet, but i think she might secretly disdain people who look down on her for being different (an “im smarter than them anyway” type of attitude)

that’s part of why i like pairing her with lucius, who is just as crazy about his public image, but NEEDS to be respected by conventional standards. essentially: if someone called him a weirdo he would kms.

the interplay between pandora as a wild/unconventional Genius Inventor & lucius as equally conniving but obsessed with Dignity and Looking Proper is really fun. imagine the mutual FRUSTRATION when your sole intellectual match has such different values. but i can’t stop thinking about how like…. despite his best efforts… he’s the only one who ACTUALLY matches her freak.

like… lucius owns albino peacocks and he walks around with a Pimp Cane. the man is BIZARRE. i like to think that lucius is trying SOO fucking hard to be a respectable pureblood & Unimpeachably Normal that it’s looped all the way around. he has a 12-step haircare routine and is a platinum customer at Borgin & Burkes <- this man is the biggest weirdo on earth and he doesn’t even realize it.

i think that pandora would be WAY more entranced by someone like that, rather than someone who is actively trying to come across as ~quirky~. lucius is organically insane because he doesn’t even realize he’s insane in the first place. he’s DEATHLY convinced that he’s perfectly fine and it’s everyone else around him who‘s crazy.

she wants to study him in a fucking lab. and lucius is constantly running up against the life-ruining wall of “wow, the only person who understands the way i think (my ambition, my need to be Great, my conniving tendencies, my flair for the dramatic) is a living representation of everything i hate”. they’re wretched mirrors.

and they would eat so hard at a ministry function you can’t tell me otherwise. imagine how campy their house parties would be