What are your thoughts on that scene in the episode "Lies" where Kagami is trying to paint Adrien but can't seem to capture his true self?
Congrats, anon, you just activated my trap card.
In all seriousness, that scene is part of a really long trend of characters talking over Adrien and telling him how he's supposed to feel, and the fandom taking their uninformed, unsolicited BS takes at face value. It was also written entirely to counter the idea that Cat Noir is Adrien's true self, because both the writers and large parts of the fandom try too hard to sound smart at the expense of the show actually making sense.
First of all, the whole premise the scene is built on is patently insane, and I'm surprised no one else pointed this out yet. "Drawings never lie"? Girl, you're thinking of photography, and even then, optical illusions and Photoshop exist. Don't show Kagami r/confusingperspective, it might actually break her brain. Also, "The poses people make are always a reflection of their personality". For pretty much everyone, posing for pictures or photos is about being aesthetically pleasing more than anything, and (I can't emphasize this enough) Adrien is a model. Of course he's going to do model poses when he's told to pose, Kagami, he's been doing this on a constant basis for what seems to be years at this point. What do you expect him to do, a handstand? It's another one of the show's attempts to be profound while in reality making no fucking sense. It reminds me of that bit in Wishmaker where Luka is asked why the hell he bothers making an instrument when an app can do the same thing, and he responds with some weird esoteric BS about how "the instrument fills the space and the space fills the instrument", instead of, y'know, that the way an instrument is physically constructed affects the way it sounds, and you just can't get that from anything digital. Luka and Kagami really are made for each other; both of them have no clue what they're talking about.
Second of all, Adrien has nothing to gain from acting silly. In fact, it's actually lowkey kind of dangerous, because the particular pose he makes could be a clue to his secret identity. It's this scene among others that led to the idea that Adrien is "overcompensating" as Cat Noir for everything he isn't allowed to do and that he's trying to hide his vulnerability, but like. Cat Noir is way more open than Adrien is. He wears his heart on his sleeve and is never quiet about the things that bother him unless he literally has to. Sure, he doesn't talk about his home life all that much, but that's more because it would risk revealing his identity, something he knows Ladybug is adamantly against. I've said it before, but just because something isn't said in the rain with soft piano music in the background while making sad kitten eyes doesn't make it less vulnerable.
Third and lastly, this scene also gave rise to the idea that Adrien is constantly performing or compartmentalizing some shit, and that Kagami knows him so well and figured out he's just a confused boy who doesn't know what to do. But this episode doesn't exist in a vacuum, and this take flies in the face of how Adrien has actually been characterized. Adrien scenes always, always follow a regular pattern of him expressing himself, getting invalidated or shut down, and then trying to give the other person what he thinks they want. It's never the other way around. Performing isn't something Adrien does naturally because he tries to be what other people want, it's always a response to someone else going "No, not like that." With that for context, this is a scene that says way more about Kagami and how she views Adrien than it does about Adrien himself.
This is really random but let's be honest (and this could've actually been the point of the scene), what kind of pose would satisfy the condition of "being yourself" in the end if not you just having fun
Adrien Agreste and Borderline Personality Disorder
DISCLAIMER: I've been a bit low on spoons this week, so I haven't gathered as much evidence as I probably could have. Also, I am but a humble student in clinical psychology. This is mainly a thought compilation for @moonieratty!
To introduce the topic, without going into it too much, personality is described by features and behavioral patterns, or traits, consistent across situations and across time. Personality disorders are therefore enduring patterns of highly maladaptive traits evaluated in personal and sociocultural context (Dozois, 2019, p. 290).
Like other disorders, personality disorders have diagnostic criteria. The DSM is used primarily for diagnosis in the US and Canada while the ICD is used more widely in Europe and other places. I'm more familiar with the DSM, but I've included a brief section on the ICD to be comprehensive. It ended up a bit longer than anticipated, so let's go below the cut. Warning for discussions of abuse, self harm, and suicide, and a brief mention of substance use.
Overview of Borderline Personality Disorder
BPD is prevalent in a small percentage of the population, about 1-2% by varying estimates, and is characterized by instability across domains of emotions, identity, interpersonal relationships, and behavior. Its onset is usually in late adolescence or early adulthood and symptoms may diminish with age, after one's thirties or forties, especially with therapeutic intervention. Along with ASPD, it has been the focus of a lot of clinical research; it is unfortunately associated with high rates of non-suicidal self-injury and suicide (APA, 2022, pp. 754–755; Dozois, 2019, pp. 308–309).
Etiological factors for BPD include both biological and environmental disturbances. Of note to our discussion is the heightened risk for BPD in cases of child abuse or neglect, as well as growing up with another family member with a serious mental health condition (NHS, 2022). It's been well established that Gabriel is emotionally neglectful if not outright abusive toward Adrien in multiple ways, so this is a clear risk factor. In addition, although I won't argue definitively for Gabriel having a psychological condition, he did keep Emilie's body in the basement, so there is clearly some kind of disturbance going on.
From a cognitive-behavioral perspective, Linehan argues that BPD stems from families who consistently invalidate childhood emotional experiences and "oversimplify the ease with which life's problems can be solved," which may cause children to learn to seek attention and communicate with others through emotional outbursts (Dozois, 2019, p. 297). This rings true for Adrien and Gabriel as well.
I have to apologize for my son, Ladybug, he's like his mother. Way too overly dramatic. (Jackady)
It doesn't seem like this is the first time Gabriel has thought this, and labeling an emotional reaction as being overly dramatic is very much invalidation of it. As for emotional outbursts, Adrien has had quite a few, mostly as Chat Noir. More on this later.
To round out this first section, attachment theory proposes a connection between poor parent-child attachments and BPD relationship difficulties. Specifically, maladaptive behavior in relationships may stem from childhood development of an anxious-ambivalent attachment style, where intense fears of abandonment interfere with a strong desire for intimacy (Dozois, 2019, p. 310). You can clearly see this in Chat Noir's relationship with Ladybug, and I'm sure other people have discussed Adrien's attachment style more in depth, but suffice to say I think this is an apt description.
Argument from DSM-5-TR
In the DSM, personality disorders are primarily diagnosed on a categorical model. There are a few general criteria which I won't be going into, but I will highlight that personality disorders are stable and pervasive, and would be diagnosed only if they were leading to significant distress or dysfunction. Adrien's mental state is not great, so the latter shouldn't be a problem, but this show does not always pay attention to consistency, so I'm going to be speculating some. Everything in this section is cited to the relevant DSM entry unless otherwise stated.
The DSM characterizes BPD with instability in relationships, self image, and affects, as well as marked impulsivity. It has no exclusion criteria, so BPD can be and frequently is comorbid with other disorders like mood disorders, PTSD, and ADHD. Of the below criteria, five need to be met in order for a diagnosis to be made.
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
Hey, where're you going? . . . So you're allowed to know her true identity, but I'm not? (Syren)
You're not really replacing me with a turtle, are you? (Anansi)
A lot of people have delved into Adrien's abandonment issues, which feature most prominently in his relationship with Ladybug. His fears of being replaced result in him seeking reassurance from Ladybug, and he can lash out if he does not receive the response he hopes for. Ladybug is his world, and he wants to be hers, so anything infringing on that feels to him like a threat of being abandoned, and he does not like it very much.
Impulsive behaviors like giving up his ring can be interpreted under this lens: he can avoid abandonment by doing the abandoning first. Then it will be him leaving, and not the other way around.
I also interpret Adrien's nightmare (Le Marchand de Sable) as being a fear of being alone as much as it is a fear of being trapped.
Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
We'll be united, more powerful and free. We'll defeat Hawk Moth, then we can both run away to an island! Far away from everything. We will live off nothing but fruits, and we will have a little pet hamster and we will name it— (Le Patineur)
I just can't do this anymore. I give up… on everything. Even you . . . If I become Chat Noir again, Ladybug will just end up rejecting me, over and over. (Kuro Neko)
Even though Adrien mostly keeps his head on straight regarding what he's owed and not owed by other people, his relationship with Ladybug is full of highs and lows. He thinks Ladybug is the most amazing girl, but this can recoil quickly into feeling as though Ladybug doesn't care about him enough or isn't meeting his needs.
Furthermore, he developed this idealization of Ladybug as a potential lover or caregiver at one of their first meetings (Cœur de Pierre), and continually sought to spend time together and share the intimate details of their secret identities early on. These are all common to individuals with BPD, as is the switch from idealization to feeling as if the other person "does not care enough, does not give enough, or is not 'there' enough." Ladybug is the only person Adrien consistently projects this instability and intensity on, which might be something interesting to explore.
Identity disturbance: unstable self image or sense of self
When I was a kid, I always wanted to be what my parents wanted me to be! (Exauceur)
But, does that mean Chat Noir is who I really am? Deep down inside? (Kuro Neko)
With all the secret identities, it isn't surprising that Adrien fits this criterion, but canon even explicitly draws a link between Adrien's unstable sense of self and his childhood experiences. He doesn't know who he is, and he distracts from this by being Chat Noir, only to struggle even more when he feels useless and underlooked as his hero self. His behavior shifts dramatically between trying to prove himself with grand gestures and refusing to participate or lashing out. There is definitely something to discuss on this front.
Impulsivity in at least two potentially self-damaging areas
Giving you some extra time . . . I trust you to bring me back, m'lady. (Gamer 2.0)
There are only two liars left in Paris and one of them knows the ultimate way to catch her attention . . . Crazy about you, m'lady. (Mensonge)
This is walking a thin line between impulsivity and suicidal behavior, which would be excluded from this criterion, but I'll list self sacrifice here because I can see an argument for Chat Noir's impulsive behaviors being out of love or the desire to be useful. There may still be some self injurious intent or euphoria, but Chat Noir does have faith in Ladybug to bring him back eventually. Nevertheless, this is impulsive and unhealthy. Chat Noir jumps too quickly to this option to have thought it through.
I can't think of another area, because Adrien isn't old enough for reckless driving, spending, substance use, or sex. This is also a kids' show. Just presenting these options for fanfiction writers out there.
Recurrent suicidal or self mutilating behavior, gestures, or threats
I... I don't know what to do! (Chat Blanc)
This is all our fault . . . Cataclysm. (Culpabysse)
By itself, what happened in Chat Blanc would not be solid evidence, as that was an unprecedentedly traumatic situation. Combined with Culpabysse, though, there is a strong case to be made for at least passive suicidality for this to be able to come up as an option.
You could also interpret the self sacrifice in this category. Suicidal behavior in individuals with BPD is often preempted by fears of rejection or abandonment, so an interesting analysis could be made on this front.
Affective instability due to marked reactivity of mood
He's still only thinking of himself! I just want this terrible day to be over and done with! I hate Christmas! (Pire Noël)
Sorry! Sorry! I didn't mean to make you so mad. I get it. You're sick of me . . . No one can help me, Kagami. (Glaciator 2)
Adrien's prolonged episodes of anger and despair reflect a high reactivity to emotional stressors, especially interpersonal ones. In general, he just doesn't feel very well unless something is actively bringing him joy. Most of his outbursts are brief, though, and I will discuss them as part of a later criterion.
Chronic feelings of emptiness
I'm not Adrien, so I wouldn't know if this is the case, but I can say he has experienced at least one depressive episode (Kuro Neko) and emptiness would not be unfamiliar. You can look at him and decide.
Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger
How was your amazing evening with your "friends"? . . . What do you think? (Glaciator)
Why not? No one'll know if I quit. No one'll care! (Syren)
A two-person plan?! There's only one two-person plan, and that's Ladybug and me! (Sentibulleur)
Give me a break, Miss "I can't even come up with a superhero name"! (Hack-San)
Anger in individuals with BPD can manifest as bitterness, sarcasm, or recurrent verbal outbursts, which Chat Noir absolutely exemplifies. These outbursts are often followed by feelings of shame or guilt and contribute to a feeling of being bad. Chat Noir apologizes after being harsh in Glaciator, and I wouldn't be surprised if he felt badly about the other times. Again, these outbursts are often precipitated by interpersonal fears and perceived threats of abandonment. Unlike other symptoms, this specific one tends to be unique to BPD.
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociation
I cannot recall any evidence for this but headcanon away, my friends.
All in all, I think Adrien has a strong case for BPD presentation according to the DSM. Canon is not always consistent, but I think it presents an interesting and mostly coherent narrative for this lens. From this perspective, Adrien's behavior reflects a deep intolerance of being alone and a dependence on other people to define the self.
As a corollary, BPD behavioral patterns are frequently linked to self sabotage and self undermining right when a goal is about to be realized, which could manifest as dropping out of school right before graduating or ending a relationship when it seems to be going well. Food for thought. Individuals with BPD may also feel more secure with transitional objects like pets than with interpersonal relationships, which could reflect in Adrien's relationship with Plagg.
To add some subjective understanding to this clinical mumbo jumbo, I've added a source of genuine BPD experiences below (Mind, 2022).
Argument from ICD-11
With the release of the ICD-11, a dimensional model for diagnosis of personality disorders became the new standard. What this means is that individuals are no longer labeled as having 'histrionic' or 'dependent' or, indeed, 'borderline' personality disorders, but are rather assessed as having any form of personality disorder on a sliding scale of severity and with trait domain specifiers (Swales, 2022). To put it more simply, people are diagnosed only with a general personality disorder or personality difficulty which can be optionally specified as deviating on one of the personality traits in the Big Five model, which is well established in personality psychology.
This move has several benefits. Stigmatization related to particular personality disorders can be reduced, and differential diagnosis and comorbidity between personality disorders becomes irrelevant. However, people retain access to treatment and support. Evidence-based treatments like dialectical behavior therapy are particularly well established and crucial for BPD; for this pragmatic purpose, the ICD contains one additional specifier for borderline pattern personality disorder (Bach et al., 2022; Swales, 2022).
The DSM and ICD are designed to be compatible with each other in many ways, and in this case, the borderline specifier in the ICD is directly lifted from the criterion of the DSM (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5). Based on our previous discussion, Adrien would be equally qualified for a diagnosis in France. I would likely describe his personality disorder with moderate severity, where multiple areas of functioning are affected and self harming behaviors may be present, but not all areas or relationships may be equally impacted and traits are not as rigid and inflexible (WHO, 2023, 6D10.0–6D10.2).
Interestingly, the ICD includes three additional manifestations of borderline pattern which are optional and may vary across time (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5).
A view of the self as inadequate, bad, guilty, disgusting, and contemptible
An experience of the self as profoundly different and isolated from other people; a painful sense of alienation and pervasive loneliness
Proneness to rejection hypersensitivity; problems in establishing and maintaining appropriate levels of trust in relationships; frequent misinterpretation of social signals
I'm fascinated by the number of adjectives in here. I simplified very slightly, as I did with the DSM criteria, but I had to keep all these adjectives. Anyway, I won't elaborate for too many more paragraphs, so let's say sentimonster moment and leave it at that. I will spare you my mirrored Félix essay. For now.
Qualifications and Limitations
First of all, Adrien is a teenager. The distinguishing factor between a personality disorder and regular adolescent difficulties would be longevity and identity concerns beyond his developmental phase (APA, 2022, p. 758). Second of all, Adrien has a uniquely terrible home life and magical problems. Some of his behaviors could be normal considering his experiences and sociocultural context, and this matters when it comes to psychological evaluation. Take everything with a grain of salt!
More generally, the categorical model of the DSM has several issues, not to mention diagnostic issues related to culture, gender, and stigma. Some but not all of these issues are addressed by the dimensional model it includes in a later section, which shares theoretical foundations with the model of personality disorders in the ICD. Even so, issues remain. Diagnosis, access to treatment, and political statements are intrinsically linked in complex ways. I won't get into all of the nuances, but be safe, remember this is a fictional character, and keep an open mind.
REFERENCES:
American Psychiatric Association. (2022). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed., text rev.). https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787
Bach, B., Kramer, U., Doering, S., di Giacomo, E., Hutsebaut, J., Kaera, A., De Panfilis, C., Schmahl, C., Swales, M., Taubner, S., & Renneberg, B. (2022). The ICD-11 classification of personality disorders: A European perspective on challenges and opportunities. Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Dysregulation, 9(1). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40479-022-00182-0
Dozois, D. J. A. (2019). Abnormal psychology: Perspectives (6th ed.). Pearson.
Mind. (2022, September). What does BPD feel like? https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/experiences-of-bpd/
National Health Service. (2022, November 4). Causes - Borderline personality disorder. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/causes/
Swales, M. A. (2022). Personality disorder diagnoses in ICD-11: Transforming conceptualisations and practice. Clinical Psychology in Europe, 4(Special Issue). https://doi.org/10.32872/cpe.9635
World Health Organization. (2023). International statistical classification of diseases and related health problems (11th ed.). https://icd.who.int/
yo wackus do you have any thoughts on a hypothetical morally grey Kagami?
well... the first thing that occurs to me is that she probably wouldn't think she was morally grey at all. she'd probably be convinced she was in the right.
like look at all the times she's been akumatized!
riposte - she wanted a rematch with adrien, to beat him in combat, to be the BEST. because that's what her family values are, to be perfect and the BEST.
oni-chan - she was trying to protect adrien from lila, trying to get him out of her clutches and rescue him from her influence
lies - she wanted to expose all lies and liars because lying is a bad thing and what ruined her relationship
ryukomori - she wanted peace and serentiy and dissociation and honestly can you blame her
riposte prime - her goal was to get revenge on marinette for lying to her and betraying her and just being a "bad" friend! she wanted to bring marinette to justice
the thing about kagami is, she has such a strong moral compass, you can only convince her to do wrong by tricking her into believing it's right. she always tries to be perfect, or better than perfect, and the times when she has faltered/been akumatized have been when tomoe, gabriel, and lila manipulated her into doing so.
if she were to become a villain, i would see her as a javert (les miserables) or a miguel o'hara (spiderman: across the spiderverse) type villain. one who's convinced they're on the right side, the just side, and who are trying to uphold a certain moral code. i don't think she is a person who leaves room for gray areas in ethical dilemmas. i think kagami is a very black and white character, and if she believes she's on the right side, then the other side must of course be wrong.
