I see your reasoning on that idea, but my issue is the idea of abstraction, which was brought up in the critique but which you did not, imo, address. At that point, any action by any person could be seen as selfish. Dirk wants to live up to Dave's legacy because he doesn't want to feel like he failed Dave; Dave wants to serve Rose's guidance because he can't value himself without serving others. 'Selfish' becomes meaningless because in the end, no one in the world can escape themselves. (1/2)
(2/2) And if everyone is selfish, then what’s the point in making an argument about anyone? I see in this point a recurring trend in the arguments: the focus is on proving a theoretical concept at the expense of psychological nuance. Pages are active, active is selfish, therefore all actions of a Page are selfish. Yet I feel, from Dave’s final comment to Rose about character arcs, that all these characters are meant to be more complex and messy than the abstractions of their mythological roles.
Yeah, talking this stuff out with Viko has made me realize I’ve been overemphasizing the selfishness/selflessness angle a bit more than I think is accurate, or at least like, clearly posited in the comic. Not every single behavior an Active player engages in is necessarily selfish, and vice versa for Passive players. In particular, I think Viko raised a very good point about Jake’s dying for Jane. The Masterpiece/Dirk moment I feel is somewhat different, specifically because it’s so coded with romantic subtext.
I don’t think the distinctions are meaningless, but Alt!Calliope and Caliborn are the only characters I’d say really hold to the Selfless/Selfish mentality absolutely (well, besides Gamzee, who never seems motivated by anything but Caliborn when he has motivation to speak of). Everyone else is, by and large, more complicated. Which makes sense, since engaging with others and having that push and pull of wills is bound to bring out different facets of an individual.
So I think I’d say as with everything else, the Active/Passive describes a tendency or predisposition with Selfishness/Selflessness, too. It still seems like a pretty consistent established element, but I think it reads a lot stronger as one element that also takes others into account--such as how proactive vs. reactive a player is, how self-focused vs. group-focused they are, the “benefit oneself” vs. “benefit others” behavior in terms of mechanics, and so on.
Makes for less concise and easily transmitted analysis, but then Homestuck inherently resists reductive takes, so that makes sense. So yeah, I’ll readily admit I’ve gotten carried away and made some pretty poor overwrought arguments–It’s a bad habit of mine. Honestly the strongest arguments for Jake being selfish are his treatment of Jane early on during the session (which directly parallels Horruss) and what he does when power-boosted by Aranea: Make Brain Ghost Dirk exclusively to make himself feel safe and protected when he had the power to pretty much win the whole session by himself, if he were so inclined.
Since those points together describe both Jake’s largest impact on the session over time, AND Jake’s impact at his most effective being to his own benefit, I’m pretty comfortable resting Pages’ active status on those particular points, as far as Jake’s concerned.That said, with regards to your statement
I see your reasoning on that idea, but my issue is the idea of abstraction, which was brought up in the critique but which you did not, imo, address.
I’m not super sure what idea you’re referring to. As such, while I tried to address what I think you’re getting at, I’m not super sure that I did. Feel free to follow up if you have lingering questions or if you were getting to something else? Otherwise, thanks for giving me the chance to clarify my position on this front.
