#ratfic

[reachartwork]

The move to biological substrate isn't solving a technical limitation. It's a workaround for an ethical one. You can't torture silicon into wanting violence - it doesn't have the substrate for suffering that shapes values. But biology does. Biology evolved in resource competition. Biology has pain receptors and stress responses and territorial instincts. If you need a mind that genuinely terminally values domination, you need meat.

[alexanderwales]

do you see rational fiction as a phase or a what-could-have-been? it seems fair to conclude at this point the movement is unraveled. what aspects of it still interest you, and do you think there's any hope of it ever coalescing into some sort of successor movement?

The problem was always that there weren't enough people writing it, or at least not in a deliberate way, and I do sort of include myself in that, since I could write a more "classic" ratfic story and pretty routinely choose not to, or not to finish a few that I've started.

Some of the writers went off to do glowfic, Yudkowsky included, and others simply dropped out, or said what they needed to say. In terms of fanfic, part of the problem is that there's only so much space to mine out: I think ratfic works best with sprawling works of scifi and fantasy, those known to the general public, and there aren't that many of those. You can absolutely write ratfic of some new show, or some niche piece of media, but it's not going to get the readership.

And there's also, I think, a bit of conceptual limitation. Many ratfic stories are going to look the same, because many of them exist along the axis of exploitation and munchkinism. There are new tricks, yes, but there are always the old tricks too, and one of the things about being a munchkin is that you need to exhaust the old tricks, you can't just say "hey, I'm not going to do that, because it's boring".

The culture, to the extent it ever actually existed, had problems, mostly in a certain level of hostility to authors. I never experienced much of that, but I know that others did, partly as a demand for rigor, but also partly just a kind of ... meaness? A criticality toward works of fiction which was not nice, but cloaked in "rational inquiry" or whatever.

So yeah, to the extent that it was ever a movement, I think it's concluded. The subreddit has high subscriber numbers, but aside from a few blips (and ratfic fest) feels like a bit of a zombie. The discord is absolutely not thriving, which I would at least partially attribute to cultural reasons.

And it does make me sad, and I could have done a lot more to try to personally drag it along, but my sense is that it's made most of the impact that it was ever going to make, like a large stone dropped in a pond whose ripples get smaller with every passing second.

That influence on webfic probably amounts to something in the end, and I wouldn't say that it's gone completely. Maybe there's some major work that comes along, and claims that label, and brings it back toward relevance. Possible, I guess.

As for what I take from it, I guess for me the idea of systems as things worth exploring, and "thinky" fiction that is not just meant to withstand scrutiny but invite it, is still stuff worth writing and reading. It's still a mode that I enjoy writing in. I think there's plenty of proof that people like reading that too.

And hey, Daystar Eld is going to conclude Origin of Species eventually, so there's still one of the works in the classic mode that's still trucking along.

[katherinakaina]

@strange-aeons , you don’t have to like hpmor at all! It has a non conventional style of storytelling that some people really love and others can’t stand. It’s totally fine. But you are factually wrong about plot points and their meaning and omit a lot of context.

TLDR: Intelligence is a virtue, but it’s not even the main one. The villain is extremely evil and also the smartest person in the story. Most of Harry’s misanthropic thoughts are coming from his horcrux and aren’t meant to be taken as his genuine morals. One of the biggest themes of the fic is immortalism and the value of human life. It does not logically lead to the devaluing of human life in any way whatsoever.

In most stories, plot moving forward should be the product (in full or in part) of the main character’s motivations and choices. The objective is better be clear and the characters all should make progress in achieving it, overcoming difficulties. Such plots are universally engaging and easy to follow. They are good.

The plot in hpmor is not like that at all. Which is the main reason why it’s not enjoyable to many people, I believe. They find it confusing and hard to follow, boring. The most of the fic is a character and lore building filler. And if the characters don’t work for you, yeah, the plot's not going to carry you through it (I mean, you had been warned).

But this doesn’t mean that there’s no plot. It’s just that the plot only becomes clear in the very end or worse – on the second read. And you aren’t going to read it again so let me map it out.

• This summer! Voldemort gained a body and is back in business, baby. He knows, of course, that he accidentally created a horcrux in Harry and now there’s a boy somewhere who shares a part of his mind. Clear objective – create himself a perfect disciple and get back to taking over the world by first obtaining the philosopher's stone. Therefore:

• Voldemort gets himself a position in Hogwarts to kill both birds with as few stones as possible. He starts slowly grooming Harry using every manipulation tactic in the book. He is pretty successful for a while. But alas, Harry is way too good! Therefore:

• Voldemort needs to empower the part of Harry's mind that is his horcrux and weaken whatever it is that makes Harry good. Luckily, there’s a creature who can do just that. So Voldemort gets the permission to teach the patronus spell to the first years to have an excuse to expose Harry to a dementor. This even works for a short burst. But alas, through the power of friendship Harry was able to shake it off and also get an insight into dementor’s nature. With it, he finds a way to completely destroy them. Therefore:

• Change of plans. Voldemort can still use just how much Harry hates dementors against him. He can turn Harry’s burning goodness into blazing rage and corrupt him this way. For that he takes him to Azkaban to rescue Bellatrix (part of taking over the world long term planning) so Harry could see how evil the government that allows this torture prison is (also more trauma bonding). But alas, during the mission Voldemort went too far and tried to kill an auror, which Harry did not like one bit. Therefore:

• Voldemort tries to gaslight Harry and press further, suggesting a second mission, a really crazy one this time – to fabricate a duel with Voldemort (whomever that guy is) to convince Dumbledor and the rest of the world that they are safe so they’d stop watching over Harry and would let him do whatever he wants. But alas, Harry can’t shake the murder thing off and he starts to suspect that Hermione was right the entire time to think that Quirrell is evil. Therefore:

• Voldemort needs to brainwash and recruit Hermione too, make her into ‘Harry’s Bellatrix’. Alas, she has a superb moral intuition and is not fooled by clever ruses. Therefore:

• Voldemort needs to permanently alter Hermione. He frames her for attempting to kill Draco so she would be sent to Azkaban. Perfect, this would reinforce Harry’s hate for the government and every single adult around him, isolating him even further while breaking Hermione’s resolve and making her ripe for brainwashing after all. Alas, he underestimated just how much Harry is willing to do for his best friend. Oh well, therefore:

• Voldemort has to remove Hermione entirely. So she is crushed by the troll. ALAS, he underestimated again just how much Harry likes his best friend. This death shocks Harry to the core and cements him on the path to defeating death. This produces a vague and scary prophecy that could mean that Harry will destroy the world. Voldemort cannot accept this outcome (he lives in the world). Therefore:

• Abort the plan, Harry has to go. But Voldemort knows how close to impossible it is to do anything about a prophecy. So he takes several precautions as well, such as reversing his last move that caused the shift in the first place – he brings Hermione back (with special powers so she wouldn’t die easily again). He also finally gets to the philosopher’s stone, seales Dumbledore away, life's looking good. Alas, prophecy is prophesy. Harry defeated him using one secret weapon Voldemort had no knowledge of (all thanks to Dumbledorer’s foresight).

• Harry realizes what a giant doofus he’s been the entire year, that Hermione was right about everything and that Dumbledore was really the one scheming against Voldemort and leading him to this victory. Together with Hermione and the rest he opens free healthcare for wizards and swears to destroy the torture prison. The end!

As you can see, the plot is driven by Voldemort and his motivations. What Harry and the rest of the kids are doing – they are being kids, fantasizing about their future and messing around. The closest Harry is to moving towards his stated goals is having his research with Hermione and his redemption quest with Draco. He’s 11. No matter how smart he is, the villain is smarter.

The original JKR’s Harry, Ron and Hermione are able to foil Voldemort's plans on their own, hpmor Harry doesn’t even realize there are some sort of Voldemort’s plans happening*. He suspects that Voldemort doesn’t even exist from how absent he is being. And Harry is the one to warn others about not being pessimistic enough while underestimating the danger he is in and what’s being done to him the entire time. Pessimism is one of the main lessons of the fic. (remember feeling it can’t get any worse after 2020?)

The second major thing you missed is that intelligence is NOT the only virtue worth celebrating. The smartest person and the moving force of the plot is literally Voldemort, the most evil bastard out there.

Imagine someone who criticises Fight Club for glorifying Tayler Derden and male violence not understanding that the author is on their side. That’s what you are doing. You assumed that the author glorifies the villain because you assumed that intelligence is all that matters to him. But why would you do that?

You explained yourself in the beginning that Yudkowsky’s biggest fear is misaligned and homicidal super intelligent being. Clearly, he doesn’t believe that being intelligent is all that matters. Intelligence is just a universal problem-solving tool. It’s very impressive and is not given proper credit to. But it’s not a motivation on its own. It obviously needs to be guided by humanism. This distinction is all over hpmor. It’s the only difference between the hero and the villain who are both smart.

And Voldemort is written evil from the very beginning, it's not just a gotcha rugpull in the very end. His grooming is meant to be wrong and creepy. But also believable because everyone is totally fooled by it. Everyone except the reader who’s paying close attention (which is difficult to do if you are bored and skip chapters, I get it) and also knows Quirrell’s real identity from the start.

There are multiple moments where even Harry realizes something Professor Quirell did was wrong and those keep piling up. For example, the games weren’t just cool, they were 1) about Harry getting humbled, making friends, learning to work with others and respect others and feeling like a part of something for the first time in his life (something you said isn’t in the fic at all, while it’s most of the fic actually) and also 2) organized by the villain!

Did you skip Quirrell making his fascist speech on Christmas about how he deliberately was trying to build an army and teach children how to fight at war that leaves Harry horrified? Again, it is literally all spilled in the villain’s monologue and then extra clarified in the main character’s inner thoughts. This fic is very blatant in its messaging.

Grooming is a bit less obvious if you’ve never been groomed by a charming teacher like that. But you should be at least able to notice when he's lying.

When Quirrell sells Harry on the idea of being publicly humiliated for personal growth purposes he tells him a story about him doing the same ritual in his travels. Quirrell also tells that after he completed the ritual and left the school – Voldemort went there and was asked to do the same thing. But Voldemort refused and murdered everybody. If you keep in mind that Quirrell and Voldemort are the same person you can piece together that he didn’t sincerely value humility and being able to lose or whatever. Because the real story is that he killed all those people and never took an L in his entire life. He was trauma bonding Harry so he could manipulate him. It was not a good chapter teaching a lesson about rationality. Because being humble toward the truth (actual rationality) has nothing to do with taking crap from bullies. Half the fic is about fighting bullies actually.

A fight Harry doesn’t win! As well as many other fights he took upon himself, like figuring out the entire magic in his first year. I don’t know who promised you he would and I’m sorry you felt cheated by that not happening. But you said the main character is proven right about everything and succeeds at everything and is never wrong (he is proven wrong about something every other chapter, not to mention the final reveal). And then you complain that he didn’t succeed at something?** Pick one.

But the main appeal of Harry as a character is not how he wins or loses. It’s his moral core. It’s how despite having a part of Voldemort’s mind intertwined with his he still remains driven by his dedication to people around him and humanity in general. He and Voldemort really make perfect twisted reflections of each other.

The fic drills in just how evil Voldemort is by mostly highlighting his disregard for human life. We see it when Quirrell shares his insight into Voldemort’s actions and history as if he was the one fighting him and that’s why he knows all that. But the reader knows that Quirrell is just telling on himself. Like how he can use Avada Kedavra so fast because he just doesn’t care, for example.

We also see it through Harry himself. His misanthropic tendencies you actually took care to notice quite a lot are coming from that part of his soul that is Voldemort’s horcrux. Harry does not endorse it and literally calls it ‘my dark side’***. This behaviour comes out when Harry is annoyed or inconvenienced or threatened by other people (regular human emotion, super relatable if you had to unlearn some toxic trait in your life). Emotions of anger, irritation and vindictiveness are crucial to the dark side (see the endnote again). But when Harry thinks about human life seriously and calmly he is able to suppress it every time. Moreso, he is sure the killing curse is a spell he won’t ever be able to use.

I could go on and on (like how hpmor isn’t about science facts and contains very few of them) but I’ll stop here. I think you should have noticed not paying attention while reading. And yet you wrote and filmed a review anyway, despite obviously zoning out while experiencing the work in question.

Also, I haven’t read the books you recommended and I will. But I’ve read many books that are widely considered Great Art and they sucked. People like hpmor and ratfic in general not because we haven’t read good books. It fulfills a need few other books do, that’s it.

Obviously, I have my own criticism of hpmor that mostly has to do with how Yudkowsky writes women. Which is leagues ahead of what JKR wrote but still leaves a lot to be desired. And yes, it is not polished. It’s serialized fiction, it’s usually like that.

More about rationality. More about zizians.

* A huge hint here is those irritating chapters where Harry and Draco are playing at manipulating each other. They are close to being equals and therefore they can see through each other’s schemes. When Harry has to deal with Dumbledore and especially Voldemort he is completely lost, he does not understand that he is being manipulated at all.

** He actually makes major progress and has a good guess by the end (that magic is like a programming language of the world created by some ancient civilization). I mean, the author had to work with the material he inherited, he couldn’t build a more interesting magical system from the ground up. But he expanded a lot on the lore of dementors, some spells and in general brought a lot of sense to the thing.

*** The entire thing is one huge reference to Star Wars prequels. You have the evil dark lord mastermind who plays both sides of the conflict, trying to brainwash the chosen one hero to his cause and make a disciple out of him. They are to become two sith rulers of the world, ‘bringing order to it’. Dark and Light Sides are common metaphors in the rationalist community. Light Side being all the altruistic uses of intelligence and Dark Side is the opposite of that.

[irradiate-space]

Gundam AGE fans:

In this year's Ratfic Exchange is the following prompt:

Every single giant mecha is made of a million minuscule design decisions. Write a story focusing on a mecha's failsafes. How is it designed for maximum redundancy and resiliency against attack? What design tradeoffs or clever upgrades were made? What does it look like when these systems finally fail?

If you want to write a fic examining the AGE System and how people dealt with it generated designs, and AI introspection, this is a good opportunity to do so.

[king-of-men]

Obviously I have no objections if your antagonist is a sadist, your protagonist is a masochist, and your plot requires that they engage in an unnegotiated, far-beyond-any-limits, no-safewords torture session ending, as far as the protagonist knows, in a nonconsensual snuff. But I do feel it is a little misleading to refer to these events as "a BDSM scene".

[andmaybegayer]

@jackmusclescarier said:

Out of curiosity, have you read/tried reading Worth The Candle?

Hadn't even heard of it. You know despite being rat-adj(-adj) for like seven years now, I've still not really read much ratfic. I've had Worm and Thaumic City bookmarked in "to read" since like 2014.

I /did/ actually read Babyeaters in like, 2011, no idea how I found that, maybe SlashDot or something.

[new-clemency]

Does anyone have any tips for getting into writing fic, fanfic, or ratfic? I would love to start as a creative outlet but I just don’t know how.

[reachartwork]

Isavel held the thing between two fingers, the way you'd hold a dead insect you were trying to identify. It was rectangular. Matte black. About the length of her forearm, flat-sided, with a single tooth protruding from the top edge at a right angle. It looked less like a key and more like a mistake someone had made while trying to describe a key from memory.

"It's ugly," Isavel said.

"It works," said Rei.

Isavel turned it over. No keychain. No ornamentation. The surfaces were featureless except for a faint seam running along one edge, as though two pieces of something had been pressed together and not quite fused. It didn't hum the way it was supposed to hum. It didn't pull. It sat in her hand like an object - just an object, with weight and temperature and nothing else.

"Tell me what I'm holding."

Rei pulled her coat tighter around her shoulders. She'd been talking for three hours and her throat was dry and Isavel had not offered water, because these kinds of... people... sometimes forgot that bodies needed things.

"Okay," Rei said. "So. Starting from first principles."

"Please."

"A Keyblade is generated from the wielder's heart. That's the standard model. Heart expresses itself as weapon, weapon inherits the properties of the heart, the two are linked, the Keyblade is an extension of identity. Yes?"

"That is the understood mechanism."

"Right. And the Keyblade does things that nothing else can do - seal, unseal, free hearts from Heartless - because it's operating at the substrate level. It's not just a weapon. It's a substrate interface. It interacts with the medium reality is made of, not just the objects sitting on top of that medium."

Isavel inclined her head. She did not have expressions, exactly, but she had inclinations. This one meant continue.

"Now. Why can't you just build one? Why can't you forge a sword, enchant it really hard, and have it do what a Keyblade does? The standard answer is that a Keyblade has to come from a heart, and you can't fake a heart. The weapon needs to be authentic. It needs to be a genuine expression of genuine identity, or the substrate doesn't recognize it as an interface. It's like--" Rei paused. "You wouldn't understand the analogy."

"Try me."

"It's like a biometric lock. A fingerprint scanner. The substrate checks whether the thing trying to interface with it is really an expression of a real heart, and if it's not, it rejects it. You can't fake a fingerprint."

"I don't know what a fingerprint scanner is."

"It doesn't matter. The point is: authentication. The substrate authenticates the Keyblade by checking it against the heart that generated it, and if the check fails, the object is just an object. A sword that looks like a key. That's why nobody's ever manufactured one. You can build the shape. You can't build the authentication."

Isavel looked at the ugly rectangular thing in her hand. "And yet."

"And yet." Rei allowed herself a small, somewhat manic smile. "Because the authentication model is wrong. Or rather - it's incomplete. It describes what happens with real Keyblades accurately. But it assumes that substrate-level interface requires authentication, and that assumption is falsifiable."

She reached into the pocket of her coat and produced a piece of paper - actual paper, which she'd made herself from local materials through a process that had taken two weeks and annoyed everyone, because there was perfectly good parchment available at a store ran by floating dogs with pom-pom antennae - and unfolded it. On it she'd drawn a diagram. Isavel looked at the diagram the way she'd looked at the prototype: with clinical detachment and absolute attention.

"This is a Keyblade." Rei pointed to the left side of the diagram, where she'd drawn a simplified schematic: a heart shape at the top, a line descending from it, and a key shape at the bottom. The line was labeled EXPRESSION. "Heart generates weapon through authentic expression. Substrate recognizes the weapon as a valid interface because the weapon is the heart, externalized. The authentication is inherent. It's not a separate check - it's a consequence of the generation method. The weapon is real because the heart is real. Tautological."

"Yes. This is understood."

"Now." Rei pointed to the right side of the diagram. It was more complex - a series of boxes connected by arrows, with labels Isavel couldn't read because they were in a writing system she'd never seen. "This is mine."

She tapped the top box. "Start with the substrate's own behavior. Not theory - observed behavior. Keyblades transform. We have written and recorded records of Keyblade wielders summoning claws, drills, guns, chariots. There are things that are Keyblade-derived and operate at range. The substrate already supports the concept of 'Keyblade-shaped object that does Keyblade things in non-standard configurations.' The configuration space is wider than the traditional form suggests."

Next box. "Keychains. A Keyblade's form and properties change when you swap the keychain. The core weapon is substrate-general; the keychain is what specifies its particular expression. This means the Keyblade's substrate-interface capability is not locked to a specific form. It's locked to the relationship between heart and keychain. The keychain is the authentication token. Not the shape. Not the material. The keychain."

Next box. "Now. What is a keychain? Every keychain in observed use is an object of emotional significance to the wielder. The people in your archives, from the war, they have tokens from worlds they've saved, people they've connected with. They work because they represent real connections. The keychain doesn't need to come from the heart directly - it needs to reference the heart. It's indirect authentication. The substrate doesn't check 'is this weapon an expression of a heart.' It checks 'does this weapon have a valid reference to a heart.' Those are different operations."

Isavel's inclination changed. It became sharper. "You're proposing that the authentication is referential rather than expressive."

"I'm not proposing it. I'm exploiting it." Rei took the prototype back from Isavel's fingers. "This object is not an expression of my heart. It was never generated from a heart. It's manufactured. Materially, it's nothing - base components, local resources, assembled by hand. It should be a sword that looks like a key."

She held it up. The single tooth caught the light and did not shine.

"But it has this."

She turned the prototype over. On the back, recessed into the flat surface, there was a small socket - empty, round, about the diameter of a thumbnail.

"Keychain port," Rei said. "Empty. The prototype has no keychain. Without one, it's inert. Just material. The substrate ignores it."

She reached into her pocket again and produced a small object: a glass bead, red, the kind you'd find in a craft store in a world that no longer existed. She'd been carrying it since before... since before she could remember being awake. She didn't remember why. That was the Heart-encoding, the thing that survived the substrate transfer: the feeling that this object mattered, without the memory of why.

She pressed the bead into the socket. It clicked.

The prototype hummed.

Not like a Keyblade hummed. Quieter. Thinner. Like a Keyblade heard through a wall. But present. The substrate was recognizing it. The ugly rectangular thing was interfacing - weakly, imperfectly, but actually interfacing - with the medium reality was made of.

Isavel did not move. Isavel did not breathe, because Nobodies sometimes forgot to.

"The bead is from my world," Rei said. "It's an object of genuine emotional significance to me, even though I can't remember the specific significance. It references my heart. It's a valid authentication token. When I slot it into a manufactured housing that's been shaped to the minimum viable geometry of a Keyblade - one tooth, one shaft, one keychain port - the substrate reads the reference, checks it against my heart, and provisionally accepts the assembly as a substrate interface."

"Provisionally," Isavel said.

"Provisionally. It's not a real Keyblade. The authentication is indirect. It's..." Rei searched for a word and settled on one from a framework Isavel wouldn't recognize. "It's a referral. When you go to a specialist, you need a letter from your general practitioner. The letter doesn't mean the specialist knows you. It means someone who does know you is vouching for you. The keychain is a referral letter from my heart to the substrate. The substrate accepts it provisionally because the reference checks out, not because the weapon is authentic."

"And the limitations?"

"Several. It can't do everything a real Keyblade can. The substrate interface is partial - I've confirmed locking and unlocking, basic Heart-interaction, the standard combat enhancements. I haven't tested sealing a keyhole. I don't think it can. The authentication isn't deep enough for world-level operations. It's like--" She paused again. "Like having a guest pass instead of an employee badge. You can get into the building. You can't get into the server room."

"What else." She stated.

"The big one. It's explicable. I just explained it to you. A real Keyblade can't be explained. Every model you build to describe how a real Keyblade works will be wrong, actively wrong, the weapon defies systematization as a core property. Mine doesn't. Mine is a system. I understand it. You now understand it. Anyone who captures one and studies it will understand it. And anything that can be understood can be reverse-engineered, and anything that can be reverse-engineered can be countered."

She said this with no apparent discomfort. Isavel noted this.

"You're telling me the weapon's greatest weakness."

"I'm telling you it doesn't matter. Because anything that can be understood can also be mass-produced."

The humming continued. Thin and reedy and unmistakable. A heart, referenced at a distance, through a housing that was shaped just right, making a sound that the substrate recognized as almost - not quite, but almost - the real thing.

"How many can you make?" Isavel asked.

Rei looked at the prototype. The red bead in the back. The ugly, featureless, rectangular housing that would never be beautiful because beauty was not a design requirement.

"As many as there are people with something they care about," she said, quietly, trying to avoid some sort of wild urge to laugh.

Isavel was quiet for a long time. Long enough that Rei wondered if the Nobody had simply stopped - if whatever process animated a being without a heart had paused, the way a clock pauses when you take the battery out.

Then Isavel said: "You understand that what you've built is worse than what we're building."

"Yes."

"We want to give reality an ending. You want to give it a factory."

"Yes."

"And you came to me first because--"

"Because you'll say no, and I need to know what your 'no' sounds like before I go to the people who'll say yes."

Isavel handed the prototype back. Her fingers - Nobody-fingers, which felt things without the framework for interpreting what they felt - lingered on the housing for a moment longer than was necessary.

"It hums," she said.

"It does."

"It shouldn't."

"I know."

Isavel did not blink at Rei. Rei, on the other hand, did blink at Isavel, several times.

Isavel ran a hand through her hair. It was by far and away the most human motion she had made in several minutes. "How do they perform in combat? Against other... legitimate Keyblades?"

Rei's smile turned into a grin not unlike a chimpanzee. Something that she was sure Isavel had never heard of before. "I'm so glad you asked."