#the timeline issue

[operafantomet]

hi @operafantomet for the auction scene would not it make more sense if they set it in the middle of the 20th century like the 30's 40's or 50's cause Raoul being an old geriatric in a wheel chair and nurse in the edwardian era doesn't make sense he would be like in his 40's or 50's by then

If I got a dollar for each time I answered this... I would literally be rich. Let me bring you the tag related answers has:

THE TIMELINE ISSUE

(let's just say the year of the main story keep shifting, which means that the year of the auction keep shifting, and yet 'Love Never Dies' never managed to align to any of them...)

[operafantomet]

How come the wedding dress for Christine in the musical is somehow based of the bustle era? Which was in late 1880's. But then Wikipedia says its based of 1860s for the musical but now I don't know which to trust?

Always a good question. For this and more I give you the following tag:

THE TIMELINE ISSUE

Long story short, there's many different takes on when the story is set, both in the prologue and the main story. For example, the original cast album said 1861, but the West End stage show said 1881. Meanwhile Hamburg listed 1871, and the Japanese productions "mid 19th century". Today I think they all list "Late 19th century". And that's just the replica versions!

Meanwhile the prologue has been pushed from 1905 to 1911. But then "Love Never Dies" came along and claimed its main story was 1907.

So in short, nothing makes sense.

[operafantomet]

DADDY DAAÉ’S GRAVE (when did he actually live?)

1817-1870 (Oberhausen, Hamburg revival, Paris)

1821-1870 (Las Vegas, World Tour, Moscow)

1821-1872 (original/long-running West End, RAH)

1827-1870 (US Tour?)

1841-1870 (Japan, Vienna)

YOU WILL NEVER KNOW (Broadway, Stockholm, Copenhagen)

The list is not complete, but shows some main tendences. I have previously referred to “the timeline issue”. The years in the libretto didn’t quite line up from the beginning, and every later change, rewritten lyric, and alternate stagings has added to the confusion.

Most replica graves seems to agree that Daddy Daaé died in 1870, alternately in 1872. But his birth year varies quite a bit, from 1817 to 1821 to 1827 to 1841. I don’t know the reason for why the birthyear varies. And to add to that, they never even did any grave in original Stockholm and Copenhagen, and Broadway currently only writes “DAAÉ” without any years listed. What is interesting is that Maria Bjørnson, when asked in a Q&A at the official site many years ago, answered this:

Q: How were the dates on Daaé’s tombstone determined? A: From the book (I.E. Leroux)

The general consensus is that POTO takes place c. 1881, due to various elements described in Gaston Leroux’s novel. Originally the year given in printed sources spanned from 1861 (original LP) to 1871 (Hamburg and Vienna) to 1881 (George Perry) - which in turn pushed the year of the auction scene from 1905 (original) to 1911 (most versions). For the 2004 movie the main story is set to c. 1870 and the auction to 1919. But then how does that add up with Love Never Dies taking place in 1907? And how does Daddy Daaé’s grave line up with Christine living from 1854-1917, according to the 2004 movie? No wonder current synopsises lot more vague about it, mentioning something about the late 19th century.

As I see it, the original plan was probably to place the story c. 1870 or a bit later. The costume design, especially the bustle dresses for the ladies, appears rather mid-1870s in style. Then there’s the alternate WYWSHA lyric mentioning “Three long years I’ve knelt in silence...”. If we combine that with the grave’s death year 1870 or 1872, it would place the story in 1873 or 1875. That said, the timeline has been pushed in all directions, and the specific WYWSHA verse seems to be the exception rather than the rule. They soon also landed on 1881 for the main year, which is fairly in sync with Leroux. In recent years the dresses has been “bustled up” for a rounder 1880s look as well.

In short, it seems whatever headcanon you may have is a good headcanon! But the above list shows variations in the gravestones, and after all I am here for the nerdy details...

[operafantomet]

sorry if this question is silly but does the first act take place in june on something? since the masquerade takes place in new year and they sing "six months"

That is the general consensus: The majority of the first act takes place during spring/summer. Exception being the 2004 movie which feature snow in the Rooftop scene:

It should be noted that the movie's Gilles André says it's "Three months" since the chandelier crash, not six months like in the stage version. They also feature the Mausoleum scene in snow. If their Masquerade takes place in typical carnival season in February - which could fit with snow in the Rooftop scene and the "three months later" scenario, I would assume the Mausoleum scene took place during spring. But judging from the set design it was a very cold spring in France that year:

Maybe the time between the Rooftop scene and the Mausoleum scene is smaller than usualt. But frankly, I think the snow in the 2004 movie is mostly an aesthetic choice and not one supposed to give us clue on an eventual timeline.

The stage show never feature snow, sun, leaves or any indication of the season. The best clue therefore seems to be in the lyrics, which places Masquerade six months after the chandelier crash, and they also tell us that Masquerade is a new year celebration. Which would mean 1st Managers, Il Muto and the general main events of the stage show's first act is sometimes during late spring/summer/early autumn.

[operafantomet]

Raoul according various ALW versions (AKA THE TIMELINE ISSUE)

Raoul in 1905 (Original West End)

Raoul in 1861/1871/1881 (Concept/Original/Early West End)

Raoul in 1911 (Royal Albert Hall)

Raoul in 1881 (Royal Albert Hall)

Raoul in 1919 (2004 movie)

Raoul in 1870 (2004 movie)

Raoul in 1907 (Love Never Dies Australia)

Raoul in 1907 (Love Never Dies Denmark)

Raoul in 1907 (Love Never Dies Japan)

Raoul in 1907 (Love Never Dies England)

The big question: why is Raoul appearing equally old in 1905, 1911 and 1919, but magically young in 1907?

[operafantomet]

If phantom of the opera is set in the 1880s shouldn’t the bustles look more of a right angel rather than looking like a slope?

I have discussed this a bit earlier, in what I call “the timeline issue”. Thing is that the dates originally differed, from 1856 (Sydmonton) to 1861 (original LP) to 1871 (early European productions) to 1881 (George Perry’s book, early West End brochure). Nowadays they often don’t mention the year at all; they’re vagueing it with “late 19th century” or similar. I guess “Love Never Dies” and its very different timeline (main story in 1907 - which is supposed to be ten years after the main events in POTO, but POTO was never set in 1897...!) didn’t help on trying to name an exact year for POTO.

The general consensus is that POTO takes place c. 1881, due to various elements described in Gaston Leroux’s novel. Originally I think the ALW team headed for the early/mid 1870s, as is written in some of the first libretti and publications. The costume design, especially the bustle dresses for the ladies, are definitely more 1870s in style. I wanna say as specific as 1873-1875. Another clue is the “Three long years” verse in WYWSHA combined with the date on Daddy Daaé’s grave - the grave specifies his death as exact as 1870:

But then the main story in the stage musical was pushed forward to the 1880s. Which in turn messed up the date for the auction scene, which was originally set in 1905. They moved it to 1911. But Maria Bjørnson’s costume design remained the same, and they reflect more on the 1870s (first bustle style, with soft lines) than the 1880s (bustle revival, with sharper, curvier lines). The grave’s date has never been changed either.

That said, the emphasis on the bustle may vary between productions. They tend to be bigger and curvier (1880s) in the Americas, and at its smallest (late 1870s) in Japan. Europe and Australia/World Tour is often somewhere in between (mid 1870s). Here’s Patti Cohenour in Canada (left) VS Amy Manford in West End (right):

[operafantomet]

...so while the Finnish/Swedish costumes looks like something from the 1980s, their synopsis state that the story is set in 1861. I wonder what made them pick that year, and what made them think the 1860s looks like that...

[operafantomet]

Speaking of timelines, o knowledgeable one, do you know when Christine's father died? Was it while she was at the conservatory? I know the book said she was six when her mother passed but I've never seen her father's death specified except in tombstone set pieces of the alw musical/movie/whatever, which isn't "official."

To give some sort of timeline, Leroux tells that Christine and Raoul met as children. When they met again some years later, they were young teenagers, I would assume 13-16 somewhere. Daddy Daaé died not too long after, and then Christine lived with Maman Valerius in Paris and entered the music conservatory for three years ( * ). She was probably around 17 when entering the conservatory, and according to Leroux her father was dead at this point.

Leroux tells us that Christine had a gorgeous voice when her father was alive, but that she lost her uniqueness when he died. She made it into the conservatory, but as a rather bland student. Probably technically good, but perfectly forgettable. This is probably also how she made it into the opera chorus - solid enough, but bland. Until the Phantom appeared and started tutoring her, some six months before the main events of the novel. He revived the unique gift she had displayed as a child, when performing together with her father, and also taught her new things - which is why her transformation was seen as so sensational.

(* WYWSHA did at one point refer to this, having Christine sing “Three long years I’ve knelt in silence, held your memory near me. Three long years of murmured sorrow, willing you to hear me” in the mausoleum scene. But it was later changed to the “Passing bells” verse)

(going by memory here, so you’ll have to dig out the Leroux novel to check the specifics)