#ttte talk

[starb0id]

THOMAS, PERCY AND ROSIE ARE A TRIO IN THE NEW BOOK I WON SO FUFKIGN BAD

[shinygoku]

gordon gordon gordon gordon

Gordon Gordon Gordon Gordon!!

He's been sneaking into these asks by proxy, so it's finally time for his dedicated session, hehe~

First impression

WUAAAGH what's up with this WEIRD LONG NOT-THOMAS and his FACE?!

Impression now

His face is still pretty weird! But you know what else it is? Part of an Absolute Legend ✨

Like, man, Gordon is such a big presence and interesting character, the entire premise leans heavily on him. I'm inclined to go as far as to say that the Blue Boys of 1, 2 and 4 here are the three most important characters for the franchise (not at all to knock everyone else lmao) and they slot nicely into a Triforce of Courage, Wisdom and Power, and Gordon has Power in spades!

Gordon is The Vain One (not James!). He's legit very strong and the fastest on Sodor (which isn't just being a big fish in a small pond because that island has some crazy cool engines!) but unfortunately he lacks humility. His success seems to have been lodged in his head before the series even begins and this Pride is the source of pretty much every single conflict he's involved in.

But when it isn't his self satisfaction in his actions, it's being smug about being such a grand, magnificent Tender Engine and he is snooty as hell about it. He seems to look at smaller engines [pretty much everyone compared to him lol] as a lesser class, particularly if they're small and cheeky and Tank Engines. This may not be the case exactly, but his way of talking to them and some other things he says are very condescending.

However... as much as a gigantic jerk he is at several points, with Gordon I kinda feel like he plain ass doesn't conceive of his words being out of line. That and having to Unlearn things... he's not innately better than everyone else. He sees things in black and white. There are Useful Engines, and those who should be scrapped. There are Noble Tender Engines and Lesser Tank Engines who exist to do the tedious chores on behalf of the Superior ones. Edward doing shunting is seen as Demeaning and contradicts Gordon’s world view that Tender Engines Don't Stunt™, and he doesn't like that one bit! (Also Edward was crossing the picket line but that wasn't Awdry's concern lmao)

Related is Gordon does seem oddly dense at times, like assuming that Tenders are in of themselves a Status Symbol rather than a large lunchbox of sorts lol, or that Tender Engines like him being too heavy for Branch Lines being because something about Branch Lines are degrading. This might be all Elitist Brainwashing influence. But still, that he just takes these as The Truth means I get to affectionately call him an idiot. And there is no other way to explain how he genuinely believes Bill and Ben were going to murder him if he wasn't missing a few brain bolts in there.

Fortunately, he does eventually start to learn the important lessons.... very gradually, but the Early Gordon is a pretty different beast to Later Gordon, and it's wonderful~

Also, I gotta give credit to him for having some moments of utter brilliance and actual grasp of reality and more complex matters, like culture. (Yeah, I'm rolling with his geniune Opera Knowledge from s6 of all things. It's good!) As much as Awdry himself may have disagreed, Gordon was in the right to want a Station Pilot and the Strike was called for (not bullying Edward for it, but myeah) ...but this leads to my next point: He seems to have a mental block when it comes to Emotions.

Certainly, he's as emotional as the others are, it's not just a scale of Snooty, Arrogant, Condescending, Prideful ....well, it is, but ALSO the more mixed and varied feelings: Shame, Sadness, Fear, Ambivilance, Irritation, Anger, Passion, Amused, Delight and so on. However, Gordon is seemingly unaware of how his words may make the others feel, and even at his cruellest it doesn't look like he's aware he's twisting a knife in. To Gordon, he's being honest, but his verbose manner ends up twisting and wriggling away from any valid point like an overgrown vine that somehow links back to how [Other Engine] is disgracing him, Gordon, by association.

Examples include: Being offended by Henry's new shape (??? Gordon dude he nearly died and this is an improvement, a good thing!), saying that Edward's age and difficulty starting a heavy ass packed load of passengers is grounds to be Retired or even Scrapped, other little insulting things like calling the likes of Thomas and James Little insistently (it seems to vary if he's trying to put them down or actually be affectionate), and many more when in the hands of inept writers who have to wheel out the same Gordon Learns A Lesson Plot every other season.

Like I said in the James post, I also think he kinda poisoned the Red guy with his snooty attitude... but I maintain that I think Gordon was unaware of this. He may know he has Influence, and enjoy that, but he really truly doesn't appear to mean to mould James into a smaller, redder version of himself. He's oblivious and from his own point of view, benevolent. Which is in fact a dangerous combo indeed!

It's... a lot o7;;

Again though, if you're looking at the books and s1-s5 of TVS you can see him grow and change. He does take a while to learn the lessons, but as time goes on he moves 2 steps forward and 1 step back, then eventually less steps back entirely. It's great! And so is Gordon. A big dumb meathead with not entirely uncalled for delusions of granduer. A dramatic so-and-so who is the best engine for his job.

I love this sophisticated jock who grows more kindness~ 💙

Favourite moment

Hm! This isn't as easy to decide lol. We all like Gordon Goes Foreign... but you know what sticks in my mind more?

hOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH

Look, I’m not 100% objective, here! But Ringo’s read of this line is fantastic (and keeps making me expect him to finish saying OOOHH SHIT) and it’s also a well deserved bolt of divine retribution for how rude he was being earlier. (As long as my essay already was, he very much needed the knocking down of some pegs here!)

Idea for a story

While both my fics with him thus far have been variations of Pre-Canon, Full-Arrogance and Snobbish Gordon (and both were a lot of fun!) ...but I cannot bear the same expired horse being beaten more when the story is set waaay later but he’s still up his own ass. Please, PLEASE writers, let him hold what growth he’s managed to gain!

I think it’d be good to accept that he’s gonna be outdated sooner or later, so have him help train another High Speed Engine and take them under his wing. The Christopher Awdry books kinda have something similar with Pip and Emma, but I think a better way of having Gordon be involved would be if he was actively doing some mentoring himself, as well as being a neat parallel with Edward, whose type was once Express only but got outclassed by A1s, and so the same can happen to this big A1 -> A3 lad and he can form a healthy relationship with some bright eyed newbie (and maybe have some self awareness and try to stop their head getting too large, lol).

Unpopular opinion

I know I just said him mentoring would be a cool story idea, but in canon? He is NOT a resident Dad type!! He’s a hotshot young man but he’s also a hot mess. He’s physically large but he’s not got the Energy of someone who dispenses sage advice and a shoulder to cry on. At best, he’s a weird uncle! One who means well but you shouldn’t take his life advice to heart because he’s actually just as, if not more clueless than you!

Favourite relationship

I feel inclined to say Thomas here. Emphatically not because Gordon is ‘old’ and Thomas is ‘young’, but because they’re so damn alike and actually make an excellent, albeit unconventional type of Rivalry.

Both are self important with genuine finesse in their respective talents, both are honest to a fault, both have redeeming qualities to offset their initial abrasiveness, and the first TVS episode is centred on the both of them and sets the tone for the series as a whole. There’s more parallels, of course, but I also wanna point out they’re effectively the mascots of North Western Rail in universe too, and I absolutely love this picture:

I also have immense fondness for the Down the Mine paradigm shift! Thomas gives Gordon grief over the ditch incident and later when it emerges the Fat Controller is gonna send for Gordon to pull him out, Thomas is filled with dread. But Gordon isn’t using the chance to lord over Thomas, he’s actually so amused by Thomas’ mishap and it coming at a time where he’s been significantly humbled, they instead become Comrades and I love it. I eat it up! Paint Pots and Queens isn’t anywhere near as good but I adore the little bit where they’re appealing for the other, equals and watching each other’s back~

But yeah, as Friendly Rivals they both feel very authentic and yet, in a daft way, sweet ;3

Favourite headcanon

He still says “Hurry, hurry, hurry!” when pulling the Express. That’s a HC as I think the show phased it out, but I like it lol. I feel like my essay on him contains most of the headcanon stuff, but it’s all based on what’s shown, baybee!

[shinygoku]

very intrigued to see what you think of Henry!!! ^v^ (character ask!)

Another day, another Big Green! (The others are Piccolo and Thunderbird 2 lmao)

First impression

"Green ver of that one big creepy dude" (Look, when I was Babby I saw a Gordon picture somewhere that minorly spooked me lmao)

Impression now

Ahh, Henry! In some ways, very much like Duck! Green, long nose, popular with the fans and I'm here like Yeah he's a good fixture of the series lol

Ok well, maybe I should disclaim that he's not one of my favourites, which is partly as I guess it's a bit hard to nail down his personality.

His, for lack of a better term, Illness Arc is fascinating and oddly Real for a series about machinery. Something's genuinely amiss with him, but the lack of a clear cause (at least, to the other engines, who presumably don't know he was built from stolen, incomplete plans and the logical issues that would arise from that) and his frequent complaints turn the other characters off wanting to hear about it, thinking he's exaggerating. Then the Welsh Coal stopgap is found! Then the very next story he has a horrible crash but it was a blessing in disguise because then he's rebuilt as a Black 5 and his health issues are gone forever! (ain't we envious of machines now?) Until Lazy Writer Disease sets in Meta-wise, but more on that later.

I think it's safe to say that it's Entry Level RWS Knowledge to know Awdry's frustrations with the character, and it is kind of hilarious how much he tried to write him out, and iirc Henry wound up with the most appearances and 'his' book has 5 stories instead of the uniform 4 for some reason. But it seems it takes further Lazy Corporate Mandates to actually write him out in BwBa which really sucks and is doing such an iconic lad horribly dirty.

Pictured: Henry as seen by Awdry/Mattel, who are about to just shove him out of the story with varying degrees of success.

Well yeah, for me I can't really settle on an opinion because he never seems to have anything solid after the Rebuild. He's kind of the nicer one out of the Terrible Trio, but sometimes he's as bitchy and obnoxious as Gordon without prompting. He seems to be pretty unlucky and sometimes his misfortunes are self inflicted, but they don't commit to this bit. He gets his (in)famous forest, much to Awdry's chagrin, but it does offer a nice gentler side to him. He also seems to be the main Fast Freight engine, particularly more Fish shipments, but this doesn't really inform his character. He all too often feels like a Spare, Green Gordon who's less full of himself (but still gets boughts of Envy and inflated self importance, like Tenders for Henry), and that's a shame because this nebulous lack of anything concrete seems to be why Bad TatMR Writing diagnosed him with Need Welsh Coal again for quite a long time (dunno if that only changed when Mattel/Brenner came in or not). But then the US dub makes him sound like w--dy all-n and that's the worst treatment of all! I kind of understand the temptation to make him the resident worrier but HUUURGHGHH NOT LIKE THAT

So yeah, the better characterization of him needs to strike a good balance of him being ...I guess a Gentle Giant, who enjoys nature and maybe is a smidge prone to bouts of feeling jealous. Maybe catches the engine version of colds more than the others because the early morning runs in the freezing air? I dunno, I'm trying to combine several traits that have been in Henry but never seemed to stick. But done properly, I could really get behind a nice, faceted character like that~

Favourite moment

It feels a bit mean to say, but it's due to the strength of the episode itself with the fantastic visuals, godly music and shocking drama (with a nice bonus of Correct Head Codes!) that put Flying Kipper at the top of this list!

Another part of this ep, is the beginning where the Driver is saying "Don't tell Gordon, but if you pull this nicely, the Fat Controller may let you pull the Express!". Like, that really squeezes my heart, because his driver is rooting for him, the prospect of a better regarded job is floating there, and knowing what eventually happens, it's like... oof! But in a good way.

...Also I think that must have been something Awdry added after deciding not to kill him off because having that bit and for it to all go up in flames would have made children and me extremely upset and he would have been buried under letters of complaint from angry mothers of the time.

Idea for a story

Other than the overly simple and grimdark "he was in fact killed that day" type coma inducers, I suppose the Two Henries theory being explored could offer some interesting interactions.

Like, what if the Henry who rolls back into The Big Station is instantly accepted and in fact, liked more than og Henry? What if the other engines instead couldn't fully relax around him? Were his memories perfect? Too Perfect?

And what would happen if OG Henry were later discovered... (and in what condition?) Dun Dun Dun dododo Dun!

The thing is, it is hard to really explore this because it's innately such a dark, heavy concept. I don't enjoy the 'Authoritarian Hellscape" lameass interpretation by normies. I like my silly workcom on the rails with warm fuzzies and funny antics, thank you very much!

Unpopular opinion

Some of his faces (even before the worsening first inflicted by Magic Railroad) are pretty weird looking! Maybe cause his forehead is so huge and smooth, but maybe just the odd mouth shapes. I like the variety, but they aren’t what I’d call cute... I find myself thinking ‘Moon Face’ looking at him [even with the lack of craters lmao] and oops I think I missed the weirdest grin of all, but here’s a small sample anyway

Favourite relationship

Not a favourite, per say, but some of the more friction-ish interactions he has with Thomas or Percy are pretty funny. With Thomas’ immortal flippant disregard to viaduct safety, Percy retorting that engines with Proper Funnels do, in fact, need scarves, something Henry wouldn’t know about, and that Henry somehow manages to dismiss Bill and Ben, a feat Gordon needs to take notes from. Even the Something in the Air exchange with Thomas, which isn’t really stellar writing just has a funny lame argument vibe.

For some nice Wholesome interaction, Bear is hands down the winner! Easy pick maybe, and it makes me wonder if Bear’s complete absence in the TVS is part of the downward spiral because he’d offer a lot more Plotlines.... hmmm...!

Favourite headcanon

Other than the universal fandom acceptance that He Digs Nature, Baby is the notion I’ve seen a few times that his “fear” of the rain, or what it would do to his paint, isn’t actually why he stopped in the tunnel, and it had more to do with his mechanical failure and/or him having something of a nervous breakdown. He does come across as something of an ass if you take the episode at face value, but there having a secret deeper meaning is way more interesting 👀

[shinygoku]

Something about Model Stepney always bothers me...and it’s this. What in the hell were they thinking with Stepney’s micro eyes and whacking great conk?? He’s standard gauge, they can’t have been that tight on space!

I can see they were trying for the same nose shape, but they let it consume his whole face! He has nice big round eyes but the model ends up with them looking proper piggy! What happened?!

Also imo his face looks cuter with the black bordering, though in fairness barely any models have that. It seems to be a feature The Edwards liked in the character designs but there ain’t a universal uptake... (i.e. I still more often see Duck without a visible smokebox à la Kenny’s drawings from before their time as the illustrators)

[shinygoku]

TVS Daisy, particularly in Season 2, looks like she got shot with Homer’s Makeup Gun. It's really naff and way more like The Joker! Going by the like, 2 girl characters in TUGS and their excessive femininity, this may be the one area where Clearwater kind of sucked lol

Literally the same picture...

Astonishingly, S4 tones it down, or maybe the yellower lighting gives it a more subdued look

But the CGI series, in one of the few changes it made I’m on board with, has it much less garish... though her eyelashes remain A Bit Much

But she’s one of the cases where I absolutely, unwaveringly, overwhelmingly prefer how she’s shown in the Books over any versions in the TVS. She isn’t overtly feminine or dolled up, but we’re told her name and pronouns and bam! Female Character! That’s all you need!!

To be clear, I also don’t object to female characters being feminine - in a hilarious parallel, it’s Mavis who has long eyelashes and lipstick in the RWS but no makeup in the TVS. Thing is, I greatly prefer how both our Diesel Gals look in the books!

[shinygoku]

Oh I see! How about Thomas?💙

Apologies for the delay, I had both lots occuring in the week and many, many thoughts, so that actually stringing them into a readable form was a thing of it's own! I've got another Thomas ask from Jobey and thus another essay planned to appear after this, but here we can go in the nice orderly template ;3

First impression

Ah yes, it’s that Train Character popular with Children. I’ve heard of him :)

Impression now

Darling Baby Boy! Big Son Energy Little Engine! My charming, beloved rude sweetie~ 💙💙💙

He’s such a wonderful and enigmatic blend of personality traits wrapped up in a shiny blue metal box! He’s so faceted and nuanced that even characters within the universe misread him or don’t see his depths.

His personality is so delicately balanced, it’s all too easy for inferior writing to tip the scales way off, and the shoddy reconstruction doesn’t have things in the right place and some notions have rolled under the sofa and get missed entirely, and That’s Not Thomas! But sadly, it’s the false doppelganger who is in the HiT and most (if not all) of the Mattel era.....

But Peak, Core Thombo? [chef finger kiss] 👌😸

He has 0% Filter and 100% Honesty. And maybe 5% Ego Cushioning because wow, that guy does not take slights in good grace! He feels things hard and fast and his mood changes faster than the signals. Thomas is temperamental!

Truly, he’s one of the very best Jerk With A Heart Of Gold type characters. Because yeah, he certainly has moments of being a Blue Meanie... But also that sincerity and urge to do the right thing, and as harsh as he can be I think he generally lacks malice, but his priorities are a bit askew from human / a lot of the other Engine’s standards. Like, his hilariously callous moments are said when he’s already irritated and he takes certain aspects of his life extremely seriously, like running his train on time. He seems inclined to Doubt(ing Thomas) any type of excuse even when it's totally valid.

But there is a fairly obvious Sweet side that’s on show sometimes. He always tries his hardest, even when he’s not enjoying it, and he tends to learn his lessons quickly. Whenever he sticks up for one of the others he does so in an aggressive way but there’s no doubt it’s from the right place. 💖

Favourite moment

This is a very difficult question lmao, there’s a lot!

I feel like re-asserting my fondness for Thomas and the Trucks and that it’s so very underrated! It does the laying down of loads of foundations that are later built on, and giving us an insight into Thomas’ experience (and lack of!) in general and regarding what he was used to. That he's tired from implied years on end of him doing the same tedious Coach Fetching, and that just moving goods to the nearby station is such a big step on the route to Thomas the Branch Line Manager lol

Idea for a story

Not to sound too much like the TV producers lol, but Thomas is pretty adaptable to a lot of potential plots! (I say this cause Awdry seemed more intent on keeping him moored to the Ffarquhar line once that was established, for better and for worse)

In any case, it could be interesting if, due to his fame in the books and TV series, some inept crooks tried to steal him [in their defence it does seem that the engines are a bit comically helpless if they don’t have crew and/or a fire burning....]. Thomas gets Very Cross and makes their lives hell. This is more a plotless short film than an actual fic idea, but it amuses me anyway :P

Unpopular opinion

When Thomas said he wanted to See The World™, he was speaking in hyperbole. For him, the next station down the track is new and thrilling!! He wanted to see further than the one Big Station he wasn’t allowed to leave! Not go on a half baked stereotype tour as the ultimate fulfilment of this comment made by a frustrated young lad.

Also that my favourite Voice for him, by a long shot, is Ringo. Whenever it’s not Ringo it should at least sound like a Liverpudlian Young Adult, not a widdle kid and not too posh and weird sounding. He may’ve been ‘born’ in Brighton but he’s lived on Sodor for decades on end, he wouldn’t keep any Southern Accent if he ever had time to develop one in the first place! The voice he was supposed to have in Magic Railroad was great and the Focus Groups ruined it!!

Favourite relationship

Still him and Edward, and probably never shifting from that! B3

Honourable mention goes to Gordon though, for reasons I went into on his ask. They’re Rivals and also Allies who both won’t admit they have sooo much in common~

Favourite headcanon

Jobey’s lore that he wasn’t actually Steamed for the first time until he was already on Sodor is so embraced by me that I keep having to stop to remind myself that it’s not technically canon lmao (It could be in RWS and the Model era...! CGI does shoot it down though, another reason I Do Not Vibe with it :T)

I also like to toy with the notion of him explicitly being an E2, but one who got modifications that worked very well in the long run but made him noticeably smaller than his siblings who did stay in The South...

[shinygoku]

feeling quite self-indulgent today, so am sniffing around to ask if you've had any further edward thoughts? now that you've had a whole extra month down the ttte rabbithole y'know ;)

The lovely lad himself! 💙🚂✨

Always gonna take the chance to Admire this Hodges pic of him <3

As for my thoughts...

...my thoughts haven't really deviated from last month! He's just such a swell, lovable guy!! Though I will say some'a my Takes have actually Intensified since last time so I'll jump in the deep end here and talk about what is probably the hottest and most controversial.

I don't see Edward as an Old Dude!

If anything, I do, in fact, see him as one of the Younger (adult) ones!

i.e. my gijinka of Thomas is hard to definitively age, but I was aiming for early 20's. Like, young enough that I still would look at him irl and be all "Son Boy" but old enough to plausibly have the jobs he would have as a human railway worker type of guy.

I still wanna draw how I'd see Edward ^^; but the notion of him being like, 16 years or so older than Thomas feels perfect somehow. So his design would reflect that assuming I could translate the ideas to lines well enough psshshh

I know Edward is based on an old 19th Century Design. But I'm sitting here in 2021 and if Thomas is an E2 then he's 106. Literal ages aren't a factor in this! Steam Engines are sadly a relic of the past, every single character is old and out of date irl.

"But CatCat," says someone who isn't you, Jobey, "The Railway series was first written in like the 40's and the relative ages made more sense back then, also the earliest stories were Set before they were written!"

Still not really holding water! The ages have consistently been tied to how they behave, how they feel. Sometimes they age across many books but for the most part they seem to be in a temporal stasis when Gordon will always Act older than Thomas in spite of being younger as the Proto-A1 compared to that mini E2. Percy is diagnosed with Baby but is older than all the main cast sans Edward himself! Age Shmage, the numbers these Locomotives care about are what's painted on their sides!

I can understand why some people want to lean into him as being the older, wiser, "ahh I've had a good time of it overall" mentor dude with silver hair and a big comfy armchair by the fireplace, from which he reads thick tomes and drinks tea with a saucer held beneath. And that's great! Everyone is free to have their own take and this is a good archetype that deserves some Love~ 💖

Contrarywise, I see certain people get ridiculously precious about it. "urgh whenever I see Edward looking in his 20's I die inside" type of comments only fill my emergency Spite Gauge, which can give me quite the burst of energy when my preferred interest fuel runs out!

But anyway, I've made up my mind on how I see Edward, and a lot of that is thanks to based Season 1 and how very Boyish he is in the early character building eps.

This is the face of a young man with a quiet impish steak!!

But also, crucially, Edward can still be that mentor figure while not being a wizened Gandalf looking pocket watch in waistcoat wearing old geezer! He can still have several Sons when he's not even 20 years older than any of them!

He has both a Dad and Mentor's Energy, but not an Old Man's. The latter goes to, again Gordon and also Toby (when he's not actively stirring shit at Ffarquhar anyway lol).

What Edward says in canon, one single time, is that he's "Too old to pull a Royal Train". This isn't an indication that he's literally old, but that his make isn't sufficiently flashy and powerful for a visit that's given so much importance.

The other thing that comes up is like "People tell me I'm old fashioned, but I don't care!" ...which is self explanatory! He's told he's old fashioned, not old old! That he's told such because it's not something he himself really thinks about. And that he doesn't put any of his worth to this!

Finally, I guess I gotta debunk things like his creaking in stories like Cows and Old Iron, and Exploit. His basis is what's old about him, not his self. He's also a tremendously hard worker, but humans and engines alike do get worn out through a lot of exertion. He's lucky that whole body parts could be switched out as soon as funds and time are cleared! Ain't these stories set after WW2? So he'd have been On the entire time! Even the hottest new thing woulda been worn out halfway into All That! Exploit had him pull a train that was jam packed when he was originally built for speed over power, and the return journey stacks every element against him short of dropping a tornado on top, any of the engines woulda broke something in those conditions. The point of Exploit isn't that he was weak enough to break, but that he's strong enough to push through it.

...I think that's all the points I wanted to make...

THE TL;DR IS: He can still do the old person-y stuff! Still using a physical diary and reading yellow paged books and tinkering with old watches, listening to Bach and Mozart. He is old fashioned, he just don't let it stop him, baybee! He's a Dad and a wise, trusted, expericened mentor. And also a kindred spirit with Thomas who absolutely feels like a youthful cheeky lad.

And here, after I wrote all that out I tried to draw him again, and I finally got it close to my intentions! 😼✨

[shinygoku]

Real small brained Take to say “Haha yeah, the story Thomas’ Train is boring and nothing happens lol” when it is:

a) Another little but important step in Thomas’ development

and b) Very illuminating on The People of Sodor, who are justly pissed when the Railway mismanagement causes the train to be left behind, but when the Engine himself reappears and looks miserable their hearts collectively melt and they’re all “You’re doing amazing sweetie” to Thomas 💕💙💗

Bonus c) is this little detail - https://mobile.twitter.com/masterbatie/status/1420098029227552777