#void civilization

[dragoler]

Hollow Knight "Ancient Caste"

I'm sure I'm not the first person to come up with this idea, but I need to get it off my chest. When the Mask Maker talks about the "ancient caste" I believe most people interpret this to be in reference to the void civilization, but this is actually one of the least likely interpretations, and I'm going to explain why.

To start with Mask Maker never talks about the void civilization at any other time, most of their dialogue is either referring to vessels, masks or the Pale King. The only character who ever talks about the void civilization is Lemm. Secondly is the way the dialogue is structured. Here's the full quote:

I see another takes mantle of king? Then grim responsibility that shall bestow. No bug has ever laid claim to this whole. Even the beasts knew their limits and bound their realm at Nest's edge. It is the ancient caste that made attempt at such vast rule. Hallownest's ruin reflects well those fared attempts.

This dialogue is triggered by unmasking them while having the King's Brand. To start with, the Mask Maker notes the connotation of the brand and the responsibility that position brings. In the next line, the Mask Maker is most likely referring to Deepnest, in which case the "beasts" in question refer to the weavers and other bugs that are a part of the distant village. Mask Maker probably brings up Deepnest here because they are within this zone, and also because the bugs of the Nest seem to have been a very proud people, as the Midwife describes them as "the most intelligent species". Despite their supposed arrogance, the weavers knew their limits. The last line is the important one, if we interpret "ancient caste" to mean "void civilization" it brings up three problems. Firstly, it contradicts itself - if only the void civilization attempted such vast rule ("No bug has ever laid claim to this whole"), then Hallownest's existence immediately disproves what Mask Maker just said. Secondly, why is "fared attempts" plural? How many times did the void civilization specifically try to rise up and fail? What evidence do we have for this, when only one other character in the game even mentions them. Thirdly, it doesn't flow well with the rest of the quote. The void civilization gets brought up basically out of nowhere as the primary focus, and Hallownest is used as an example to explain what happened to it. How are these two civilizations relevant enough to each other and the subject matter to justify changing the focus so drastically between sentences?

Okay so I don't think they're talking about the void civilization, so what else could they mean? Wyms. Mask Maker is talking about WYRMS! As soon as you read the line as being about wyrms, all those problems go away - a wyrm built Hallownest, wyrms tried multiple times to build kingdoms, but in their over-ambition, their kingdoms always fell. This corroborates the dialogue of Mister Mushroom where he tells us just that:

…Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall, Till ages pass and kingdoms fall,

And moreover, it makes better sense with the rest of the context of the quote, which is triggered by the brand of the Pale Wyrm. So why am I so excited about this? Because "caste" is used in another place:

This border bounds the twisting, scratching things. Their dead sire, once of honoured caste. Their sealed mother, but the common beast. No peace with them we make.

This is a lore tablet in Fungal Wastes made by the shroomal tribe where they talk about the rulers of Deepnest. We can guess from Mask Maker's dialogue that the beast caste is referring to weavers, so Herrah as a spider makes sense to be referred to as such as well. But her dead king? He was of "honoured caste". What does honoured caste mean? I've speculated for a long time that it might be a broad term for "higher being", but now that I know that "ancient caste" most likely means "wyrms" I'm much more intrigued by it, because what if all higher beings are split into different castes? What if the honoured caste is another kind of higher being distinct from wyrms? And most likely, something related to Pharloom. I suppose we will just have to wait for Silksong to find out…

Potential rebuttal

"But Draggy, of course the void civilization has vast rule, you can find their soul totems everywhere!" This is true, but we don't really know the context of why they are there. If you will indulge a theory for a moment, these totems have been around for a very long time, so why do they still hold charge? Well, we know that soul is found in the air:

Naturally formed within a crystal over a long period. Draws in SOUL from the surrounding air.

Deep Focus charm description

So I posit, what if their purpose isn't just to hold soul, but to collect it? There are no soul totems in the City of Tears except for those found in the Soul Sanctum pit full of the bodies of bugs drained for the machinations of the Soul Master. The Soul Sanctum scholars were adamant about collecting soul, so instead of the ancient void civilization placing their totems around willy-nilly, perhaps they were placed by the sanctum as another means of harvesting soul? Or if they were placed by the void civilization, it was for the same purpose and not an indication of their actual inhabited range; like placing collectors out in the wild. Oh, and those totems in the pit of soul-drained husks? They still have charge. Hmm…

[ido100]

The VOID Kingdom

Basically, my rambling of headcanons about the kingdom that existed before Hallownest and the Radiance's rule, which is hinted to center itself around the VOID. If you have any ideas to add, feel free to do so :)

The ancient civilization that worshipped the darkness, they managed to utilize it to create soul magic- healing, building, combat. With it, they secured their position of power and rule.

But the VOID was more than just power. It absorbed the life force and knowledge of the bugs who took a portion of it and when they were laid to rest, that portion returned to the source, adding the bug's contributions to its vast ocean.

Throughout the generations, the civilization knew how to negotiate, how to trade, how to execute its rules and justice, learning it through the VOID's memories and past mistakes.

And the Shade Lord was the manifestation of those memories- the shared conscious and memories of all the bugs who lived, fought and died in service of the Darkness and its citizens. It whispered in the ears of its children to guide them through the ages, but in the end, it left the final choice to them.

In its own way, the Shade Lord was fair, if not kind, to those it considered allies. Cruel to enemies, surely. There are many stories of VOID consuming everything it set its Tendrils upon.

But when calm, it helped its subjects flourish and grow, in both light and darkness. Rooting its Tendrils to the ground above and below, it ensured the prosperity of its kingdom.

[voidcreacher]

Nghhhh wordvomit speculation about the Radiance and the ancient civilization under the cut do not judge me if this makes no sense I've been thinking about pre-Pale King era for too long and also had only 3 hours of sleep last night

I was thinking about the chronology of Hallownest and pre-Hallownest societies and experienced a thought about it.

The earliest society we know about is obviously the ancient civilization that worshiped the darkness itself. At some point, there came the moths, the mosskin (both of those with their respective goddesses), the mantises, the mushrooms and the weavers, in an unknown order.

They likely already had their own societies and systems established when the Pale King came along since they were able to make deals and even demand things of him.

(I have no idea at all where the White Lady fits into the timeline, whether she was already there when the others made their debut or if she arrived roughly at the same time as PK.)

The point is, whether those societies were established before or after the Radiance and the moth tribe, they had to have coexisted, and seem to have done so peacefully. The Radiance doesn't give really care about other higher beings, like Unn and White Lady. She has it out for the Pale King specifically, because her followers were stolen by him, and she tolerates other powerful beings as long as they don't fuck with her.

All of that to say, I don't think it's all that clear how interactions between the Radiance and the void civilization would have played out, if they even did. Yes, they worshiped her "ancient enemy", but the void, before being unified by the Knight, seems like it should be nothing to her. A lighthouse was able to make it harmless, and the Radiance is a fucking light goddess in the prime of her power at this point.

If the void itself wasn't a threat to her, then what about the bugs who worshiped it?

I find that debatable. They had power in the form of SOUL and presumably spells, and void can be used to make those more powerful, but we have no idea how much control they had over those, if it took some kind of toll on them like with the bugs on the Soul Sanctum, if they could create but not use spells, like it seems to be the case with the Snail Shaman. If they COULD use those spells, then I have to doubt the damage they could do to the Radiance anyway. Ghost beats up gods left and right, and they're powerful. They're a hybrid of two higher beings plus a very powerful substance, and it still takes this specific charm made by this specific being to be taken to this specific place by them (or one like them) specifically to be able to even go against the Radiance.

So in conclusion I have no conclusions.

Maybe the Radiance WAS petty enough to destroy a whole society even before PK's arrival, solely due to the fact that they had something that, under the right circumstances, might be able to oppose her. I'm just not that convinced of it anymore.

I've also toyed with the idea of the void worshippers being the ones who fucked with her first, in which case there would at least be a catalyst to her wiping them out, but that is a whole other thing and my brain has been fried enough over this.

[determinedcloudchaser]

Hollow Knight Vessel OC - Part 1

Light Vessels & the Void Civilization

I just had this idea for a Hollow Knight OC, I just need to figure out the design but it is non-binary moth very similar to the vessels, cause they are basically the Light-counterpart. I have this headcannon that the Pale King is not the first to create vessels, there were already Vessels during the time of the Void Civilization, by the Radiance of all people. Following the Moth's claim that the Radiance made them, it can be assured that the Radiance is capable of creating other beings.

In comparison tot the Void vessels, who made to be living prison where the Radiance cannot control it, the Light vessels are hollow bodies meant to be controlled by the being inside it, extensions of her blades in the physical world.

This physical body of the Radiance was made during the Void vs Light War, since she can't manifest in the Physical world. This is also a more direct and faster link than having a Priest/Seer. This body is made of the same essence of the moth tribe so that it will be completely compatible with the Radiance and to guarantee she have full control like it's her actual body, but with enough skills that it's like a mini-Radiance.

We also know that the Void vessels are not completely empty and have a mind of their own, this also extends to the Light vessels. But with The Radiance, Hivemind, any will it have is completely suppressed and dormant while the Radiance is present. It's still there but it's just really hidden and needs time to develop further.

It's main ability would be like a weaker version of the Radiance with dream related powers. Manifesting dream shields, shoot Lasers, summon dream blades and daggers from the ground, and fly if it's trained to it's prime. This would be further enhanced to godly levels once the Goddess fully moves in now that the body have access to an endless power source.

By birth they are non-binary, but since they were made to be the host of the Radiance, who is female, they are raised with the female pronouns. So much so that the other moths already treat them as if they are the Radiance herself.

The Vessels are more like a weird cousin of moths that make up the moth tribe we see in the game. Both are made of dream essence but have different purposes. The Seer, Markoth, and Thislewind are more specialized in prayers to keep the Goddess existence than fighting so they are kept away from the fight during the Radiance's Golden Age.

Now that the Radiance have herself some fighters with God powers she have full control over, she have the full advantage to win against the Void Civilization.

This war did took some time before the Void Civilization was completely destroyed by a small army of mini-Radiance clones, enough that the Void citizens recorded it in their arcane eggs. This egg would then be examined by the Pale King during his research in the Abyss, inspiring him with the idea of the Void Vessels.