The collapse is upon us!

[lordeisonfire]

just fyi, Faith Seed is a victim, not a villain.

[thespokentruth28]

I think it is kinda disturbing with this victim blaming going on regarding her among plenty of players.

That some players have such a hard time accepting Faith as this tragic and victimized character she objectively is trying to talk her into some kind of evil femme fatale - biasedly dismissing everything she says, does or her personality as a lie or her consciously manipulating you namely in the fight when it is clearly and objectively explained and easy to put together in various pieces of evidence that it is not really the case and that there is a lot more to it if one has a little nuanced understanding to stuff beyond the resistance words...

Ive found that players who says she is lying or manipulating you in the boss fight for instance or that she isnt a victim always are looking at things very simplistic, lore ignorant/ignoring and NEVER provides any actual evidence which should actually back up that she is lying or manipulating because... Well there is none and only a lot of things which indeed confirms her being sincere and a true victim equally blissed out especially explicitly now with the collapse DLC confirming it even more basically to the point of her being an pawn with little agency kept in line on bliss equally as anyone else, probably because a lot of players were having a hard time putting two and two together in far cry 5 so they went fully explicit...

[afarcryfrommymain]

While im on the subject of far cry morality for a game series that loveees to have "questionable morality" Far Cry 5 realllyyy should have had more nuance about the people youre murdering, since you're fighting a cult, the type of thing thats famous for being deliberate in who they target.

Like they have no qualms about making you feel a little funny about playing the FPS game where you shoot people blindly. Both Far cry 3 and 4 go out of their way to make you question the morality and things you're doing pretty frequently. But Far Cry 5 has maybe a handful of examples that are actually related to this

Faith has a few lines in her boss fight which hint at this, we have that quest with "The Deserter", we have the short video they did as promotional material and thats kinda it in terms of notable examples. Jacobs Chosen are implied to have gone through his trials but it also feels like he doesnt do them to people who are already followers? Am I going crazy here?????

4 actually has maybe my favorite example of what i would have loved to see with the character Noor Najjar and her questline, look it up if you haven't seen it but the long and short is the nuance of "doing bad things because you were desperate for one reason or another" is dialed up to 11 and shes got a lot of interesting depth to her i just didnt get in 5 with Faith, a character who they could have done similar things with.

[thespokentruth28]

Okay allow me to dig into this and post this LONG analysis I've made.

The game definitely provides moral ambiguity just not in a "the antagonists are actually the good guys" way but more a muddy conflict

The point is that while Joseph isnt a good guy the deputy isnt tackling the situation correctly in any way neither both logically, morally and not least lawfully.

In the game deputy takes things very much beyond "doing their job and duty". Throughout the game the deputy does and partakes in a lot of things morally, logically and lawfully wrong storywise considering who they actually are and what they are supposed to do regardless of the nukes or if Joseph wasn't right about the collapse and yes a lot things can also be considered unnecessarily violence... In that subject there is plenty of moral ambiguity to how the deputy does things especially as a so called officer of the law in which they completely break the law many many times.

So im gonna drop a long post explaining this:

Firstly the deputy is not exactly wrong because they are trying to stop a suspected criminal cult leader at first hand but more the way the deputy goes on about the situation post the tutorial AS IT IS SET UP which is wrong... It is more about how the deputy goes on about the situation and decides to directly wage war against Edens Gate the way they do instead of more doing what's correct and prefer to do things in a less violent manner which is why the secret ending is ultimately the right thing to do which is the whole point. And no that doesn't mean ignoring and leaving Joseph for good but simply that you leave to inform the outside world and plan a better approach with more reinforcements to even possibly force a surrendering which leads to less casualties on both sides which should always be preferred and the right thing.

Like Joseph tackle his "preparing for the collapse" wrong the deputy tackle the situation wrong aswell and does a lot of things morally, logically and lawfully wrong in the course of the game.

So yeah:

- The deputy never acts like a police officer and never do arrests even when possible and many things we do is completely illegal aswell.

Many of the missions we take part in or things we do in the game is either morally or logically wrong aswell as a police officer and supposed good person...

- The deputy takes part in a mission killing cows with fire and reapers because he needs the testicles for an annual festival - very necessary in the situation i see. ;)

- The deputy teams up with actual criminals from the resistance and flames angels(actual people) without remorse while freaking out to disco music.

- Chasing a dude and purposely shoots him lethally and canonically picks up his body to unnecessarily throw it around - unnecessary brutalism and wrath is not a good guy at all...

- Takes part in "voter suppression" at a street corner and literally kills people just for fun and again indiscriminately murder a lot indoctrinated people who are brainwashed or tortured into it aswell or people who only are with Joseph to stay alive or to be saved. (Definitely not only self defense neither)

- Blows up a lot of useful buildings(hotels and water treatment plant) and things which could have been reformed and used aswell.

- Blows up a statue and burns a book at the top. (so professional)

- We are actively seeking to kill people and builds up a resistance and takes part in anarchist resistance missions as a militia guerilla fighter and storywise it is not like we only kill people in self defense as we are the one on the offensive leading a resistance and seeks to kill.

- The deputy actively feeds a war and never attempts to do anything else which leads to a lot of casualties and destruction on both sides.

- Ahh and all the casual stuff: Steals and pillage stuff from local business and personal property's, indiscriminately kills animals in various brutal ways, steals vehicles etc.

- The ambiguity also lies in the fact that many of the people in the cult are equally brainwashed or tortured into this aswell and could be redeemed but the deputy never shows interest in such options or acts like an officer of the law even when possible.

Faith is a good major example to that and a person who possibly could be helped and that we as the deputy murder a young(almost barely an adult) victimized/brainwashed girl who literally breaks down and begs for help/mercy and in the end tries to reach out and basically surrender but the deputy doesn't show any desire to help her, directly rejects her and leaves her to drown/bleed out in a river - what a hero! Killing a clearly mislead young girl screaming for help should definitely cause some moral conflict and it should be the preferred option for ANY good person or anyone with any morals to help someone like her out of this by all means let alone your duty as an officer of the law.

ANY good person should be able to understand that people may be caught up on the "wrong" path doing bad things and thus by all means should attempt to help the person and prefer non lethal options EVEN if the person is responsible for bad stuff and even more if the person is like her, still very young and clearly clearly victimized in this herself to a great extent and shows a lot of inner struggle and redeeming qualities directly starting to scream and beg for help.

She is textbook definition of the objective moral ambiguity factor: "having the player killing tragic or mislead people caught up in a bad situation" So if the player doesn't see any "moral conflict" by literally killing a young brainwashed girl crying for help like her lost in this herself who does the only thing she knows and has ever learned or see why you as an officer of the law and supposed good guy should react to that, then it is definitely a problem with your moral compass and immorality rather than the game failing to present ambiguity or moral complications... Not only is it directly our job and duty as an officer of the law to step in and react to/help someone like her finally breaking down begging for mercy but also just any person with healthy morals would see a moral obligation to do so - nothing moral, good or right about murdering an almost barely an adult girl begging and crying for mercy regardless.

- Maybe the most important blowing up some well supplied bunkers for instead of just securing and keeping such very useful undergrund places intact... When we venture through them we can see that they are stocked with food, water and supplies and all kinds of useful stuff, a lot of it taken from the said county and instead of keeping the bunkers intact working to fetch all of these things back out again when possible we just blow it all up for no reason. Why care if the peggies are stealing it to prepare for the collapse if we and the resistance doesn't care about blowing it all up in the end anyway... Also by doing so you buries and smothers a lot of people (death or alive) including eventual prisoners who didn't got discovered or rescued...

Ultimately they would have been a great factor in saving and helping a lot of people in the end both in terms of food, water and recourses they now hold but also just the big space to surely hold a lot of people... The point is that a collapse is coming and Joseph build BIG bunkers. (far bigger and better supplied than the normal Hope bunkers) You rendered everything uninhabitable and made

So yeah ultimately by blowing them up you makes everything worse and possibly destroys the chance of survival for at least dozens of people, and no matter if Joseph was right or not there is absolutely no reason to blow them and it is just stupid and illogical all around no matter how you look at it but especially with the collapse coming it shows that you makes everything worse by destroying them. Regardless of Joseph and the cults horrific crimes: they build big bunkers and we made them uninhabitable and thus made everything worse. The small Hope County bunkers isnt nearly on this same svale.

- Also the resistance:

They are not really "good guys", and a lot of them are portrayed as "gun-nuts" and sounds like people who enjoys this shit rather than people trying to stay alive. Furthermore you can encounter several instances in bunkers and read notes where the resistance either torture or have tortured peggies aswell and other things.

At the wolf den Tammy has captured a chosen and joyfully utilize torture on him to get information and the game makes it clear she ENJOYS it - pretty hypocritical to me and greatly adds to ambiguity and a truly good faction shouldn't utilize torture...

They burn their enemies with fire arrows and flamethrowers aswell and most of them based on comments and taunts are clearly portrayed as people who enjoys it - Jess is a prime example and she clearly takes joyment in what she does and uses the situation as an excuse to kill for fun as she basically says.

Also Sharky have his own "playground" where he joyfully flames angels (actual people) while listening to disco music - i have a hard time believing this is what a sane person would do in such situation. ;) The deputy likewise takes part in this for that matter and does a lot of stuff which a police officer shouldn't do.

I dont think they are portayed "good" and they could easily have portrayed many of them far more benevolent but this clearly wasn't the intention to show ambiguity. Many from the resistance act like people who enjoys this shit and are made in a really "fuck yeah" way rather than people who actually despise this life... The whole thing is just that one has to have some self indsight and actually pay attention to all these things yourself rather than watching a single cutscene at the end of the game like in far cry 4.

- So in the end you want to do the right thing and actually tackle things correctly? The secret ending and leaving at the start is definitely the most logical thing to do in the current situation as we are 5 people sorrounded by a army of cultists - of course they won't let you take their leader. The best thing to do is to leave the area, plan a better approach and then come back with more reinforcements as we don't really got the upper hand, so the secret ending is the "good" ending and obviously the most sane thing to do.

This would also force a more peaceful surrendering etc. And things would happen with far less casualties. This is the ultimate point of the whole thing and it should be pretty obvious for anyone having a bit of self awareness to their own character.

- Ultimately the game makes a commentary on and "mocks" this whole fps genre and specifically the typical fps audience playing it acting like killing hungry lunatics firmly believing they have "such a moral highground" and is justified to act like psychos against people they deem "bad guys" and basically that everything they do is justified in the name of being on the "side of good". The game mocks and makes satire of this whole this whole american "keep your rifle by your side" mentality potraying most of the resistance very stereotypically like these gun tooting american rednecks most of them not very intelligent who just wants to "drink beer ane shoot peggies oh yeah" taking pride in having a gun and "PrOtEcTiNg YoUr HoMe" instead of acting more naturally to the situation they are in which they shouldnt be satisfying or funny...

[brownlee-22]

While i agree with you with majority of your points, there are certain things i have to disagree with. Firstly if we were to play the game the “right” way as in following the law as a police officer with moral high ground it wouldnt be a far cry game but a more of a cop simulator. Far Cry games are Well established with their crazy drug induced missions and killing enemies just for the fun of it. Thats not what a good cop should do. In the end its just a game and taking away all those “morally wrong” decisions would vipe out the whole core of a fc franchise. My second point is the fact that Faith is no way innocent in all of this. Yes, she was a drug addcit which was used against her by the cult and so on but oif you paid attention to what resistence members who knew her before said about her just like if you’ve read notes scatterd around henbane river you would realise that girl is actually very cunning. In the and she was a perfect Faith. She had innocence around her that made you believe she was forced into all this and its just a victim which is not true. She is perfect manipulator. I think thats part of the reason Why John hated her so much. She was this sweet angel-like creature who didnt have to do anything and people would eat from the palm of her hand just bacause she appeared so innocent. John knew it was all an act though afterall he had enough experience with people like har back when he was a lawyer. She wasn’t the first Faith but she was apparently the most devoted according to Joseph himself. Its also known that she got rid of the previous Faith to get her position. Her screaming during her boss fight while she was already loosing that Joseph forced the drugs on her and so on could very easily be percieved as her trying to hold on to last straw so the deputy would show her mercy. I love Faith as a character but i definitely can’t view her as this innocent girl. Thats the image she perfectly to get were she is. Then again those are just my thoughts and as we already know that fc writers are very inconsistent when it comes to the characters backstories.

[thespokentruth28]

The thing is with Faith that there is nothing of evidence to say she is lying about being drugged and threatened etc and actually on the opposite a lot of things to confirm that she WAS an absolutely innocent teenage girl down in the muck caught up in a cult via acceptance and belonging only to be groomed and brainwashed against her own judgement into being who she is. I think to just say that she is lying about it with no evidence to actually indicate that she is lying not only borders on victim blaming but also makes no sense especially with all the lore especially the latest like the collapse DLC which clearly points in the direction that Faith clearly is lied to and manipulated herself and also that she never consciously seeked this life but simply was looking for a better life and to get clean.

Even without any evidence there is nothing unbelievable about it as it is more of a rule than an exception in a real life cult that a young innocent teenage girl down in the muck gets roped into a cult only to be taken advantage of, groomed, drugged and threatened into being who she is against her own judgement possibly even sexually exploited(this one not exactly confirmed tho) by a cult leader, so yeah even without the lore things to support it and directly confirm it, there is no reason to not believe her cries in the fight or generally that Faith isn't a genuinely tragic and victimized character who never consciously seeked or became what she became intentionally...

- In The Book of Joseph it is directly confirmed in his fancy ways that he drugged her to "purify her" and "keep her in line"

- In the Collapse it also couldn't be more explicitly confirmed that not only is she abused by Joseph and didn't wanted this but also directly showed that her "devotion" and compliance to Joseph purely stems from her being blissed out. It is likewise showed that the second the bliss wears off and she starts to see the reality more clearly and remembers her own true thoughts as Rachel, she immediately loses every piece of "devotion" and remembers about him and what he did to her, AND immediately tries to throw away her title of Faith screaming that her name Rachel hitting Joseph.

- Also the whole disturbing story about the "Faith" role and how they are viewed by Joseph as a sick replacement to his wife and "feminine touch", how he talks about him putting his Faith into her, how she worries more about how Joseph would punish her when you destroy his statue. And like how the previous Faiths was discarded when no longer useful to Joseph shows a pretty disturbing image to how Joseph views and treats these girls.

- Her former friend Tracey, while in grief, and doesn't SHOW to care so much about her former self anymore just wanting her gone: She explains that Rachel was this naive minded, keeping the peace girl who was always too nice, always agreeing, unable to resist or realize when a fight needed to happen which clearly says that Rachel at core isn't any way a strong willed person to speak up for herself and clearly confirms her as a naive minded person susceptible to manipulation which is also reasonable to conclude considering her past.

So I would clearly say based on everything that what is happening in this fight is that we slowly breaks her out of her brainwashed mind with her starting to see the reality more clearly with her true thoughts as Rachel sparks on her mind - not her trying to manipulate you but simply the reality comes crashing down.

This dosent make her exactly innocent - and YES undoubtedly Rachel over a long time clearly became powerful, dangerous and got a sense of control with her bliss, seems confident and smug at times and yeah again obviously became good at her thing with it as firstly this is the only thing she knows and has ever learned, but the thing is that it is all the bliss that makes her feel that way and purely with the bliss she is powerful - without her bliss to cling on, (both in terms of her own mindstate but also what she is capable of) and once her mind becomes clear from it to an extent, everything quickly comes crashing down to her and she quickly falls back to her own fragile, naive and doubtful self with her remembering and the reality sparks on her mind which again is also ultimately what's happening in the final fight with her in far cry 5...

[afarcryfrommymain]

While im on the subject of far cry morality for a game series that loveees to have "questionable morality" Far Cry 5 realllyyy should have had more nuance about the people youre murdering, since you're fighting a cult, the type of thing thats famous for being deliberate in who they target.

Like they have no qualms about making you feel a little funny about playing the FPS game where you shoot people blindly. Both Far cry 3 and 4 go out of their way to make you question the morality and things you're doing pretty frequently. But Far Cry 5 has maybe a handful of examples that are actually related to this

Faith has a few lines in her boss fight which hint at this, we have that quest with "The Deserter", we have the short video they did as promotional material and thats kinda it in terms of notable examples. Jacobs Chosen are implied to have gone through his trials but it also feels like he doesnt do them to people who are already followers? Am I going crazy here?????

4 actually has maybe my favorite example of what i would have loved to see with the character Noor Najjar and her questline, look it up if you haven't seen it but the long and short is the nuance of "doing bad things because you were desperate for one reason or another" is dialed up to 11 and shes got a lot of interesting depth to her i just didnt get in 5 with Faith, a character who they could have done similar things with.

[thespokentruth28]

Okay allow me to dig into this and post this LONG analysis I've made.

The game definitely provides moral ambiguity just not in a "the antagonists are actually the good guys" way but more a muddy conflict

The point is that while Joseph isnt a good guy the deputy isnt tackling the situation correctly in any way neither both logically, morally and not least lawfully.

In the game deputy takes things very much beyond "doing their job and duty". Throughout the game the deputy does and partakes in a lot of things morally, logically and lawfully wrong storywise considering who they actually are and what they are supposed to do regardless of the nukes or if Joseph wasn't right about the collapse and yes a lot things can also be considered unnecessarily violence... In that subject there is plenty of moral ambiguity to how the deputy does things especially as a so called officer of the law in which they completely break the law many many times.

So im gonna drop a long post explaining this:

Firstly the deputy is not exactly wrong because they are trying to stop a suspected criminal cult leader at first hand but more the way the deputy goes on about the situation post the tutorial AS IT IS SET UP which is wrong... It is more about how the deputy goes on about the situation and decides to directly wage war against Edens Gate the way they do instead of more doing what's correct and prefer to do things in a less violent manner which is why the secret ending is ultimately the right thing to do which is the whole point. And no that doesn't mean ignoring and leaving Joseph for good but simply that you leave to inform the outside world and plan a better approach with more reinforcements to even possibly force a surrendering which leads to less casualties on both sides which should always be preferred and the right thing.

Like Joseph tackle his "preparing for the collapse" wrong the deputy tackle the situation wrong aswell and does a lot of things morally, logically and lawfully wrong in the course of the game.

So yeah:

- The deputy never acts like a police officer and never do arrests even when possible and many things we do is completely illegal aswell.

Many of the missions we take part in or things we do in the game is either morally or logically wrong aswell as a police officer and supposed good person...

- The deputy takes part in a mission killing cows with fire and reapers because he needs the testicles for an annual festival - very necessary in the situation i see. ;)

- The deputy teams up with actual criminals from the resistance and flames angels(actual people) without remorse while freaking out to disco music.

- Chasing a dude and purposely shoots him lethally and canonically picks up his body to unnecessarily throw it around - unnecessary brutalism and wrath is not a good guy at all...

- Takes part in "voter suppression" at a street corner and literally kills people just for fun and again indiscriminately murder a lot indoctrinated people who are brainwashed or tortured into it aswell or people who only are with Joseph to stay alive or to be saved. (Definitely not only self defense neither)

- Blows up a lot of useful buildings(hotels and water treatment plant) and things which could have been reformed and used aswell.

- Blows up a statue and burns a book at the top. (so professional)

- We are actively seeking to kill people and builds up a resistance and takes part in anarchist resistance missions as a militia guerilla fighter and storywise it is not like we only kill people in self defense as we are the one on the offensive leading a resistance and seeks to kill.

- The deputy actively feeds a war and never attempts to do anything else which leads to a lot of casualties and destruction on both sides.

- Ahh and all the casual stuff: Steals and pillage stuff from local business and personal property's, indiscriminately kills animals in various brutal ways, steals vehicles etc.

- The ambiguity also lies in the fact that many of the people in the cult are equally brainwashed or tortured into this aswell and could be redeemed but the deputy never shows interest in such options or acts like an officer of the law even when possible.

Faith is a good major example to that and a person who possibly could be helped and that we as the deputy murder a young(almost barely an adult) victimized/brainwashed girl who literally breaks down and begs for help/mercy and in the end tries to reach out and basically surrender but the deputy doesn't show any desire to help her, directly rejects her and leaves her to drown/bleed out in a river - what a hero! Killing a clearly mislead young girl screaming for help should definitely cause some moral conflict and it should be the preferred option for ANY good person or anyone with any morals to help someone like her out of this by all means let alone your duty as an officer of the law.

ANY good person should be able to understand that people may be caught up on the "wrong" path doing bad things and thus by all means should attempt to help the person and prefer non lethal options EVEN if the person is responsible for bad stuff and even more if the person is like her, still very young and clearly clearly victimized in this herself to a great extent and shows a lot of inner struggle and redeeming qualities directly starting to scream and beg for help.

She is textbook definition of the objective moral ambiguity factor: "having the player killing tragic or mislead people caught up in a bad situation" So if the player doesn't see any "moral conflict" by literally killing a young brainwashed girl crying for help like her lost in this herself who does the only thing she knows and has ever learned or see why you as an officer of the law and supposed good guy should react to that, then it is definitely a problem with your moral compass and immorality rather than the game failing to present ambiguity or moral complications... Not only is it directly our job and duty as an officer of the law to step in and react to/help someone like her finally breaking down begging for mercy but also just any person with healthy morals would see a moral obligation to do so - nothing moral, good or right about murdering an almost barely an adult girl begging and crying for mercy regardless.

- Maybe the most important blowing up some well supplied bunkers for instead of just securing and keeping such very useful undergrund places intact... When we venture through them we can see that they are stocked with food, water and supplies and all kinds of useful stuff, a lot of it taken from the said county and instead of keeping the bunkers intact working to fetch all of these things back out again when possible we just blow it all up for no reason. Why care if the peggies are stealing it to prepare for the collapse if we and the resistance doesn't care about blowing it all up in the end anyway... Also by doing so you buries and smothers a lot of people (death or alive) including eventual prisoners who didn't got discovered or rescued...

Ultimately they would have been a great factor in saving and helping a lot of people in the end both in terms of food, water and recourses they now hold but also just the big space to surely hold a lot of people... The point is that a collapse is coming and Joseph build BIG bunkers. (far bigger and better supplied than the normal Hope bunkers) You rendered everything uninhabitable and made

So yeah ultimately by blowing them up you makes everything worse and possibly destroys the chance of survival for at least dozens of people, and no matter if Joseph was right or not there is absolutely no reason to blow them and it is just stupid and illogical all around no matter how you look at it but especially with the collapse coming it shows that you makes everything worse by destroying them. Regardless of Joseph and the cults horrific crimes: they build big bunkers and we made them uninhabitable and thus made everything worse. The small Hope County bunkers isnt nearly on this same svale.

- Also the resistance:

They are not really "good guys", and a lot of them are portrayed as "gun-nuts" and sounds like people who enjoys this shit rather than people trying to stay alive. Furthermore you can encounter several instances in bunkers and read notes where the resistance either torture or have tortured peggies aswell and other things.

At the wolf den Tammy has captured a chosen and joyfully utilize torture on him to get information and the game makes it clear she ENJOYS it - pretty hypocritical to me and greatly adds to ambiguity and a truly good faction shouldn't utilize torture...

They burn their enemies with fire arrows and flamethrowers aswell and most of them based on comments and taunts are clearly portrayed as people who enjoys it - Jess is a prime example and she clearly takes joyment in what she does and uses the situation as an excuse to kill for fun as she basically says.

Also Sharky have his own "playground" where he joyfully flames angels (actual people) while listening to disco music - i have a hard time believing this is what a sane person would do in such situation. ;) The deputy likewise takes part in this for that matter and does a lot of stuff which a police officer shouldn't do.

I dont think they are portayed "good" and they could easily have portrayed many of them far more benevolent but this clearly wasn't the intention to show ambiguity. Many from the resistance act like people who enjoys this shit and are made in a really "fuck yeah" way rather than people who actually despise this life... The whole thing is just that one has to have some self indsight and actually pay attention to all these things yourself rather than watching a single cutscene at the end of the game like in far cry 4.

- So in the end you want to do the right thing and actually tackle things correctly? The secret ending and leaving at the start is definitely the most logical thing to do in the current situation as we are 5 people sorrounded by a army of cultists - of course they won't let you take their leader. The best thing to do is to leave the area, plan a better approach and then come back with more reinforcements as we don't really got the upper hand, so the secret ending is the "good" ending and obviously the most sane thing to do.

This would also force a more peaceful surrendering etc. And things would happen with far less casualties. This is the ultimate point of the whole thing and it should be pretty obvious for anyone having a bit of self awareness to their own character.

- Ultimately the game makes a commentary on and "mocks" this whole fps genre and specifically the typical fps audience playing it acting like killing hungry lunatics firmly believing they have "such a moral highground" and is justified to act like psychos against people they deem "bad guys" and basically that everything they do is justified in the name of being on the "side of good". The game mocks and makes satire of this whole this whole american "keep your rifle by your side" mentality potraying most of the resistance very stereotypically like these gun tooting american rednecks most of them not very intelligent who just wants to "drink beer ane shoot peggies oh yeah" taking pride in having a gun and "PrOtEcTiNg YoUr HoMe" instead of acting more naturally to the situation they are in which they shouldnt be satisfying or funny...

[animasolascreenshots]

[thespokentruth28]

One of the most emotional and saddest character deaths of games ive played

[jellyfishstatic]

Currently in a happy stage of accepting how absolutely not canon to actual FC5 the writing for Faith in Collapse is and how wonderfully fucking creepy and matching Joseph's freak she is after finding all her phones on a later playthrough and so on.

The best one's not even on the wiki!

"Every time a bell rings..."

Hey, hey, I get wanting players to have fun things to find when they explore and I get wanting Faith's zone to be especially trippy, but I had to go so many places! (More than the Collapse writer went, oops.) At least I'd found all the sapphic romance gone sour with Tracey bits very early.

[thespokentruth28]

I would say the dlc just elaborates on things more explicit and in regards to Faith goes a lot more into her true former self as Rachel and her real thoughts rather than her fabricated Faith persona... And how she got turned into it.

Just because a person isnt innocent dosent mean they are immidiately evil incarnate or cant be a complete victim of the situation they are in. Like we villains openly doing countless of bad things but with Faith all we have to find is a short voicemail without any context and then players are like "look how evil she is".

- Faith was always in far cry 5 meant to portray a very tragic character with a big victim complex, caught up in a cult via the feeling of "acceptance" and "belonging" as a young girl and then slowly brainwashed and exposed into extreme ideologies at a young vulnerable state with minor self consciousness or agency to what she was doing and zero intentions of becoming what she ended up as. Evidence clearly points towards that in far cry 5 aswell and in all of her backstory roots while still showing how such innocence and fragility can be taken advantage of and turned into a weapon...

In the Book of Joseph it is also directly stated in his fancy ways that she was given drugs(scopolamine) to purify her and keep her in line and from doubt so it is only backed up there aswell.

That Rachel got into this cult in the start "willingly" as a naive and broken teenager for the hope of a better life with zero intentions or motivations of becoming what she became doesn't mean that she wasn't later on manipulated or hooked on to drugs for Joseph to keep her "devoted" to his cause when she naturally started to realize and refuse.

- That dosent mean she is innocent, cant be dangerous or a villain purely because of what she is part of but all these things ans bad sides can be traced down to a result of her being victimized and brainwashed herself.

Undoubtedly Rachel over a long time clearly became powerful, dangerous and got a sense of control with her bliss, seems confident and smug at times and yeah again obviously became good at her thing with it as firstly this is the only thing she knows and has ever learned, but also that it is all the bliss that makes her feel that way and purely with the bliss she is powerful - without her bliss to cling on, (both in terms of her own mindstate but also what she is capable of) and once her mind becomes clear from it to an extent, everything quickly comes crashing down to her and she quickly falls back to her own fragile, naive and doubtful self with her remembering and the reality sparks on her mind which is also ultimately what's happening in the final fight with her in far cry 5.

We dont know any context of these voicemails, when they were recorded and what state she was in besides none of them contradicts anything about her being a victim of the bliss and Joseph himself - just because a person developed some more darker sides during years of indoctrination into a dark and authoritarian ideology dosent mean she isnt a victim and never intentionally seeked or wanted this life

[jellyfishstatic]

I think there's room to prefer Collapse if one prefers Collapse but I don't see that that's the same Rachel as written in the original game.

The Faith in Far Cry 5 is completely immune to scopolamine. This is thickly mentioned by NPCs along with a lot of other detailed explanations of the Bliss and Angels (I am in the process of collecting that from the script for myself! Whee!). It's just physically not possible for Faith, as written, in Far Cry 5, to have been exploited using scopolamine.

In the Book of Joseph it is also directly stated in his fancy ways that she was given drugs(scopolamine) to purify her and keep her in line and from doubt so it is only backed up there aswell.

It is possible that this was either an earlier version of the story than presented in the game as released, or just not the same Faith. Her character appears to have gone through the most rewriters, although I feel like her Tracey-centered story ultimately situated her as the most individually-realized Seed sibling for what we get of each of them, thankfully.

The writer for Collapse states that he largely used the wiki and the cinematic sequences to create the story, and I feel this shows extensively in the handling of Faith, ignoring her phones, the NPC dialogue, and Tracey's testimony.

Tracey discusses that she was there for Rachel, that Rachel lies that she was alone, and that she is hurt by her narrative revision. She still keeps Rachel's letter chiding her for jealousy over not being the one to make her happy while trying to lure her back (and Faith has a lovely line about still loving Tracey all the more for the rage filled person who's still all about her that she's become). Their complicated relationship is the centerpiece of Henbane up to that wonderful moment Tracey finally fully breaks her not-returning-to-Portland lingering.

The writing of 5 has each of the Seeds equally as both victims of terrible things and now as monsters who are visiting traumas on every vulnerable person who comes their way.

In Faith's case, the terrible thing was certainly meeting Joseph, regardless if she's in the present molesting Sara in the live action and then whispering that she wants him to help acquire her and the letter in the game shows he sends her on with Faith to be made an angel). But she is also vocally clear headed about her position.

The way I view her last words in the game, she starts using Joseph's first name in a way that suggests she's not impressed by his cult leader act and has a frank discussion with the character about how to stop him. If anything this seems to be the opposite of naivety and fragility? The shift to fully humanizing personal familiarity with Joseph is the opposite of John's fawning-til-the-end death and less but also distant from Jacob dying saying he may not know if he talks to God but Joseph is right. She's like, "Pro tip the only way Joseph's right is if you make him right."

[thespokentruth28]

Firstly as a seasoned far cry 5 player who have discovered everything: i know about all the dialogue and lore tidbits scattered around but again it dosent really contradicts that she is still a victim of this cult imo. That Faith in game is a villain with power when using her bliss dosent change how she became this and how Joseph molded an innocent vulnerable teenager into something. Likewise dosent mean that she isnt a victim of these same things in game.

- To the thing about her being immune: There is absolutely no actual objective evidence in far cry 5 or anywhere which confirms that she is immune to scopolamine or bliss. Neither wouldnt it makes much sense that she and nobody else has gained complete immunity. That Rachel gained some resistance in terms of not becoming an angel dosent mean that she isnt still affected in terms of her mindstate and how it keeps her from doubts she would normally have.

One of the community developers of ubisoft stated that from the team the disturbing idea and part of "Faith" and her role was how Joseph uses the bliss to shape and mold them into his ideals viewing "Faith" as a role rather than the people behind it so there is also that.

It is clear that she loves the bliss herself and sees it as a lifesaver because she herself is high and it makes her feel "free" like anyone else. She shows many textbook definitions in far cry 5 of what would define a brainwashed person as she never really provides any constructive or actual good arguments to join Joseph or the cult. Just naively "join Joseph because he is my savior and is the best person ever" without really delving into his ideologies or why he is the best person.

That some resistance members (ive only seen whitehorse saying it tho) states some vague words without sources or evidence about her being immune isnt in any way definite nor objective evidence. More like "she must be immune since she dosent turn into an angel"

Likewise that the resistance(who are greatly biased against her) calls her a "LiAr and MaNiPuLaToR" as a taunt to make it easier for them to resist everything associated with her isnt objective evidence. Of course they wouldn't believe her or anything she says as they obviously are her enemies and biased against her - that is not objective evidence. It is equivalent to the cult calling the resistance "sinners".

And just nitpicking what we wants and dosent want to be canon of official content seems rather biased than anything else like "the book of Joseph was possibly written differently than the game" - it is just assmumptions and again that Joseph used scopolamine on Faith to make her obedient isnt imo contradicting to anything anywhere.

- I know about everything Tracey says aswell and what she says also lines up well everytime she provides some actual source information about Rachel. It is also worth noting that Tracey clearly is in grief for what happened even after all this time and feels guilty because she was the one who found Edens Gate at first where Rachel "slipped away from her". She outright states that her vulnerability, too naive and trusting personality is what got her into it. She never says she "lied about being alone" but simply that she was there and tried to make her realize what she was doing apparently without luck.

She explains that Rachel was this naive minded, keeping the peace girl who was always too nice, always agreeing, unable to resist or realize when a fight needed to happen which clearly says that Rachel at core isn't any way a strong willed person to speak up for herself and clearly confirms her as a naive minded person susceptible to manipulation which is also reasonable to conclude considering her past. It makes completely sense to the victimized arc she is given and backs up that she is not this self motivated manipulator at core and also supports that she was turned and groomed into what she is rather than purposely becoming it.

- That Faith got into this with Tracey and "choose to play daddy's little flower princess" when she was at her lowest and the cult were just a little peace group dosent in any way mean that she wasn't later on victimized, gaslighted and brainwashed to keep her in line when she realized and doubted the tests and things she saw on the inside. That they found and she got into this group willingly(as a kid mind you) isn't in any way a contradiction to her obvious victimization later on at all based on many implications in the game. She never says that she was actually forced or kidnapped into this cult in any way not in far cry 5 nor in the DLC... However that doesn't contradict to anything in terms of her being taken advantage of especially later on when she started to doubt and realize stuff which is also possibly here the actual more clear "unwillingness" and direct victimization started as Joseph had to keep her in line when she was hesitant, doubted her path and "tried to run away"...

I just dont understand when people are trying to ignore the part of her being a victim almost trying to make her evil incarnate and worse than Joseph. Likewise saying she is lying about being threatened and drugged and that she wasnt grommed into this as a kid. Because there is absolutely no actual evidence which indicates that she is lying but things which directly confirms that she while not innocent at the time of the game was an innocent naive girl who got caught up into something she didn't knew what was and victimized, grommed and psychologically wiped into these ideologies - to dismiss these things and her screaming/crying in the boss fight as her just manipulating/lying leans towards victim blaming.

Sorry for the wall but as i see it there is nothing objectively off with how the collapse potrayed her like at all - it just made it more explicit and obvious.

[jellyfishstatic]

Currently in a happy stage of accepting how absolutely not canon to actual FC5 the writing for Faith in Collapse is and how wonderfully fucking creepy and matching Joseph's freak she is after finding all her phones on a later playthrough and so on.

The best one's not even on the wiki!

"Every time a bell rings..."

Hey, hey, I get wanting players to have fun things to find when they explore and I get wanting Faith's zone to be especially trippy, but I had to go so many places! (More than the Collapse writer went, oops.) At least I'd found all the sapphic romance gone sour with Tracey bits very early.

[thespokentruth28]

I would say the dlc just elaborates on things more explicit and in regards to Faith goes a lot more into her true former self as Rachel and her real thoughts rather than her fabricated Faith persona... And how she got turned into it.

Just because a person isnt innocent dosent mean they are immidiately evil incarnate or cant be a complete victim of the situation they are in. Like we have the other villains who openly does countless of sadistic things but with Faith all we have to find is a short voicemail without any context and then players are like "look how evil she is".

- Faith was always in far cry 5 meant to portray a very tragic character with a big victim complex, caught up in a cult via the feeling of "acceptance" and "belonging" as a young girl and then slowly brainwashed and exposed into extreme ideologies at a young vulnerable state with minor self consciousness or agency to what she was doing and zero intentions of becoming what she ended up as. Evidence clearly points towards that in far cry 5 aswell and in all of her backstory roots while still showing how such innocence and fragility can be taken advantage of and turned into a weapon...

In the Book of Joseph it is also directly stated in his fancy ways that she was given drugs(scopolamine) to purify her and keep her in line and from doubt so it is only backed up there aswell.

That Rachel got into this cult in the start "willingly" as a naive and broken teenager for the hope of a better life with zero intentions or motivations of becoming what she became doesn't mean that she wasn't later on manipulated or hooked on to drugs for Joseph to keep her "devoted" to his cause when she naturally started to realize and refuse.

- That dosent mean she is innocent, cant be dangerous or a villain purely because of what she is part of but all these things ans bad sides can be traced down to a result of her being victimized and brainwashed herself.

Undoubtedly Rachel over a long time clearly became powerful, dangerous and got a sense of control with her bliss, seems confident and smug at times and yeah again obviously became good at her thing with it as firstly this is the only thing she knows and has ever learned, but also that it is all the bliss that makes her feel that way and purely with the bliss she is powerful - without her bliss to cling on, (both in terms of her own mindstate but also what she is capable of) and once her mind becomes clear from it to an extent, everything quickly comes crashing down to her and she quickly falls back to her own fragile, naive and doubtful self with her remembering and the reality sparks on her mind which is also ultimately what's happening in the final fight with her in far cry 5 when she starts screaming about being drugged.

We dont know any context of these voicemails, when they were recorded and what state she was in besides none of them contradicts anything about her being a victim of the bliss and Joseph himself - just because a person developed some more darker sides during years of indoctrination into a dark and authoritarian ideology dosent mean she isnt a victim and never intentionally seeked or wanted this life

[ntaras]

i am a big fan of “was faith a complete victim or was she the evilest of evils” discourse because it’s discourse that perfectly suits her character. completely victimizing her and reducing all of her actions to being 100% joseph’s fault ignores that she served a major hand in the development of the bliss and how she utilized bliss as a weapon while presenting her as a villain with no room for empathy ignores how her role as “faith” is also a role that makes her easily expendable to joseph just like the previous faiths. like it is kind of amazing how the discourse around faith mimics the “is faith telling the truth? or is she manipulating you?” dilemma in fc5. her character is tugged between sweet innocent baby and horrible vile woman and that discourse itself is just a perfect representation of faith’s character: a mystery in which people are taking sides to the most extreme interpretation of her. for some reason she can’t be more than an innocent girl manipulated or evil incarnate. she has to be one or the other and yk what it doesn’t matter because she’s dead and only she knows the truth!! just like her body disappearing we’re also never going to find out who she truly was and i think it’s so perfect

[thespokentruth28]

- If we go by official lore now the Collapse DLC couldn't more explicitly confirm and go more into detail how she is truly a victim of this whole thing all around how she never wanted any of this, that Joseph is abusive towards her and how she is continuesly hooked on the bliss which blinds her to her true feelings about everything and Joseph and keeps her "devoted" so evidently no different to other victims in the bliss as we see it in far cry 5. While she gained some resistance to it in terms of not becoming an angel etc she is definitely just as much a victim of the effects in terms of her mindstate and how it keeps her "blissfully happy" in this brainwashed to think the bliss helps people as she herself is trapped in this beatiful lie distorting her perception of reality. While some players subjectively dosent take the collapse DLC as canon dosent change that it is official content and thus objectively a valid source... I dont know but i have a feeling that the reason they made it so explicit in the collapse DLC was because so many people had a hard time "putting two and two together" so to speak so they made it very explicit.

Book of Joseph also directly confirms Joseph to be drugging her with scopolamine(inspiration for the bliss drug) to "keep her from doubt" and "purify her".

So with that said, the official lore especially the latest collapse DLC seems to state her and her roots a lot more towards that she is a victim in this and apparently brainwashed on bliss herself which keeps her away from her real thoughts as Rachel. After this i saw her a lot more as a victim of the cult and more manipulated herself rather than JUST being this evil manipulator.

I just dont understand when people are saying it is a mystery whether she is lying about being threatened and drugged and that she wasnt grommed into this as a kid. Because there is absolutely no actual evidence which indicates that she is lying but things which directly confirms that she while not innocent at the time of the game was an innocent naive girl who got caught up into something she didn't knew what was and victimized, grommed and psychologically wiped into these ideologies - to dismiss these things leans towards disturbing victim blaming.

[rookisaknight]

Biannual rewatch of the Collapse DLC. I get the distinct impression that the writers didn't. Quite understand Faith and defaulted to stock abused cult princess tropes. Obviously every Herald is a lot more volatile and vulnerable around Joseph than they are around the Deputy but Faith I think winds up reading much more. Hapless and naive. What was interesting about Faith in FC5 to me is she always seemed like she was a little more aware of her circumstances than she wanted to admit to herself. More than that she was a talented manipulator and extremely lucid, even holding Joseph at arm's length to avoid jeopardizing her own power/repeating the mistakes which got her predecessors killed. I think there could have been something interesting done if it had dove a little more into Joseph's cognitive dissonance on the subject, on his mental insistence that she remains his sweet innocent (dependent) Faith its clear that she's playing his own game back at him, telling him what he needs to hear to ensure her own survival

[thespokentruth28]

I like it and how it elaborates on to her. It seems the dlc just elaborates on things more explicit and in regards to Faith goes a lot more into her true former self as Rachel and her real thoughts rather than her fabricated Faith persona... And how she got turned into it.

Faith was always in far cry 5 meant to portray a very tragic character with a big victim complex, caught up in a cult via the feeling of "acceptance" and "belonging" and then later slowly brainwashed and exposed into extreme ideologies at a young vulnerable state with minor self consciousness or agency to what she was doing and zero intentions of becoming what she ended up as. Evidence clearly points towards that in far cry 5 aswell and in all of her backstory roots while still showing how such innocence and fragility can be taken advantage of and turned into a weapon... She was clearly groomed and manipulated into what she is rather than purposely becoming it and the dlc just elaborate further on that narrative of her - a disturbing but yet very realistic example to how people are preyed into cults in real life. She shows all the objective textbook definitions in far cry 5 of what would define a brainwashed person as she never really provides any constructive or actual good arguments to join Joseph or the cult. Just naively "join Joseph because he is my savior and is the best person ever" without really delving into his ideologies or why he is the best person - very typical example to a brainwashed person who roughly only follows him because she dosent knows anything else.

Undoubtedly Rachel over a long time clearly became powerful, dangerous and got a sense of control with her bliss, seems confident and smug at times and yeah again obviously became good at her thing with it as firstly this is the only thing she knows and has ever learned, but also that it is all the bliss that makes her feel that way and purely with the bliss she is powerful - without her bliss to cling on, (both in terms of her own mindstate but also what she is capable of) and once her mind becomes clear from it to an extent, everything quickly comes crashing down to her and she quickly falls back to her own fragile, naive and doubtful self with her remembering and the reality sparks on her mind which is also ultimately what's happening in the final fight with her in far cry 5.

[vvvyzt-deactivated20251011]

[thespokentruth28]

How do you view the cutscenes from different angles like showed in the top and bottom picture?

Anyway looks good!

[donotopendeadinside]

OK GUYS, I have a genuine question here.

What would Eden's Gate do with the children of the families that they either captured or that joined? Because I don't think they've just killed them. I mean, Jacob's probably an exception to that rule, but I don't think Joseph would allow them to kill children.

Was it ever actually explained that they killed the children? Or were we ever told what happened to them?

This has been eating me alive for the past two weeks btw!

[thespokentruth28]

I mean Joseph directly killed his newborn daughter at "gods will" so I wouldn't put it past him as long as it is at the expense of "gods word".

Also he is very implied to be at least indirectly responsible for the killings and discardings of several young girls who became "Faith" who weren't good enough or lost their devotion. We don't know about their age but they were young so very possibly kids.

Several npc's also tells about how they lost their son, kids or daughters to things related to the cult(bliss and sacrifices)

[felassanis]

I've seen a kind of collective notion that John and Jacob would have a sort of...rivalry?

Which, considering they never interact in FC5, I am assuming it stems from the idea that because John is more...how do we say? more conscious of his looks? More dramatic? how he obviously never gets his hands dirty unless he has FULL control of the situation?

It stands in complete contrast to Jacob who literally walks around with bloodstained shirts and is very much getting his hands dirty...

But like. I would think the opposite? I can see Jacob poking fun at John for being a tad dramatic and very vain sure. But we do know this is the same Jacob that literally put himself between John and their abusive father when they were kids? How despite being a kid himself, Jacob would fight their dad in order to keep him off of his little brother?

Of course, John told his teachers that they were being abused and it wound up with the family getting split up. And they haven't seen each other in years but I highly doubt that kind of brotherly affection would dissipate? In fact I can imagine one of the few genuinely happy moments John has is reuniting with Jacob? Like the only person ever to have ever tried to protect him?

Idk. I wish these two interacted more because I was always super impressed with Jacob for trying to help John. And this idea that they would have an intense rivalry never sat right with me but idk maybe I'm missing something

[thespokentruth28]

Ive never got the impression that they had any sort of rivalry between them and i don't think the dlc alludes to that neither at all... As the oldest brother Jacob is just more respected especially by the younger brother but that's basically it.

We never see them interact with each other in any way and not really any objective or definite information to say anything definite... That's why I am missing with them in far cry 5: none of them connects and never interacts with each other or gets to talk as a family in the story but are completely separated from each other. They don't really say anything about the death of each other - only a small eulogy from Joseph.

Lorewise you could make it work either way i guess because there is really no definite lore to confirm anything. Personally there was never anything that made feel that they had some sort of rivalry and it is clearly suggested that Jacob was always protective of his brothers.

[gulistan-blog]

㋡🥀

[cumin233]

[thesnadger]

When I see Breaking Bad memes and people making jokes like "lol if only they had universal healthcare" I get it, but I always just go:

[thespokentruth28]

Someone asked a writer if Faith was fully a victim, plied with drugs and forced into Eden's Gate. The writer said that Faith twists the truth to her advantage. So while she isn't lying, she is not telling the full truth. I don't think the original poster was saying faith was not a victim, I think they were pointing out how she is a manipulator. She lies to your character and tries to manipulate them with bits of the truth, and when she doesn't get what she wants... I just think all the villains in fc5 are very complex, cannot be limited to 'they are victims, nothing else'. Since we don't know most people who knew Faith before the cult, I take Tracey's words pretty seriously when she talks about Faith, considering she is the only one the writers focused on giving insight into Faith's personality.

Hi, I hope you like a long and detailed answer so feel free to skim. ;)

- Yeah i know about all this this but it doesn't really contradict to anything i think. it It is not only this line from her in the fight at all that creates this whole victim complex to Faith but all kinds of things, lore and environmental storytelling in the world. That Joseph didn't forcefully shovelled drugs down her throat or that she wasn't directly forced into the cult doesn't mean she isn't a victim and doesn't mean that she wasn't "plied with drugs" manipulated and "threatened" to be kept in line when she was already in it and possibly started to doubt what she was getting into.

Dean explained that there is always truth to what Faith says, but she is also good at turning the truth to her advantage - it is basically just him saying "i can't tell you that, you have to decide and determine yourself"... I mean it is not like this reveals anything we didn't knew about her and nothing definite... It is basically just "up to your own interpretation" but i think there is more than enough evidence in the game, Book of Joseph, and now especially and explicitly the collapse DLC that makes it easy to put two and two together that there is clearly a lot more to Faith than just being this "manipulator" and that her supposed "manipulation" ultimately is a result of her being manipulated and brainwashed herself.

In the Book of Joseph it is directly stated in his fancy ways that she was given drugs(scopolamine which is inspiration for bliss) to purify her and keep her in line and from doubt so it is only backed up there aswell. Again that it wasn't forced down her throat doesn't mean it was actually willingly or that she wasn't manipulated against her own judgement - i think the scene in the Edens Gate short is a perfect example to that. Nobody touches or forces Sarah in any way but she is clearly manipulated in every way and isn't really given the chance or choice to refuse or to leave the room neither so yeah that is a perfect example to how it can happen at the very start...

- I know about everything Tracey says aswell and what she says also lines up well everytime she provides some actual source information about Rachel. It is also worth noting that Tracey clearly is in grief for what happened even after all this time and feels guilty because she was the one who found Edens Gate at first where Rachel "slipped away from her". She outright states that her vulnerability, too good and trusting personality is what got her into it and that she didn't realized what she was actually getting into...

She explains that Rachel was this naive minded, keeping the peace girl who was always too nice, always agreeing, unable to resist or realize when a fight needed to happen which clearly says that Rachel isn't any way a strong willed person to speak up for herself and clearly confirms her as a naive minded person susceptible to manipulation which is also reasonable to conclude considering her past. It makes completely sense to the victimized arc she is given and backs up that she is not this self motivated manipulator in reality and in the end clearly supports that she was turned and groomed into what she is rather than purposely becoming it. It clearly supports the indications that she is more manipulated and brainwashed herself rather than being this evil "liar and manipulator" as we are tempted to believe based on what we are told by the resistance which is also completely one sided and biased aswell... It further hints that her childlike innocence, her naive faith and general sweet personality she express in the game most of the time is not her acting but who she actually really is - it isn't her "acting sweet" or faking anything but simply her doing the only thing she knows and have been indoctrinated into believing since a young age.

- That Faith got into this with Tracey and "choose to play daddy's little flower princess" when she was at her lowest and the cult were just a little peace group dosent in any way mean that she wasn't later on victimized, gaslighted and brainwashed to keep her in line when she realized and doubted the tests and things she saw on the inside. That they found and she got into this group willingly(as a kid mind you) isn't in any way a contradiction to her obvious victimization later on at all based on many implications in the game. She never says that she was actually forced or kidnapped into this cult in any way not in far cry 5 nor in the DLC... However that doesn't contradict to anything in terms of her being taken advantage of especially later on when she started to doubt and realize stuff which is also possibly here the actual more clear "unwillingness" and direct victimization started as Joseph had to keep her in line when she was hesitant, doubted her path and "tried to run away"...

- People are rarely directly forced into cults but simply lured in the name of "acceptance" and "belonging" and gaining their trust in the start. The it is very hard to get out again especially if the cult leader is determined to keep the person by all means necessary like Joseph clearly was with his "Faith" while Tracey was more "free" to leave and considering Rachels naive and easily manipulated mindset it is easy to see how she went down that road... Things in a cult is a little more complicated than just being forced or not. Especially for a young, vulnerable and naive teenage girl like her you can do a lot with just emotional words and talkings in the start because of her ignorance to anything else and the fact that she has no other happy life to compare to... Basically cult leaders and Joseph promises people what they have been missing and longed for their whole life and then uses their naivety and ignorance to indoctrinate them into his ideologies and into serving "his word" only which is what ultimately matters to him as he serves the "greater good". And it is only possible because these are young and mistreated people who for the first time felt like they were "part of something" and felt a misplaced sense of "love" and "family". So yeah Rachel got into the cult willingly before they became and actual cult without realizing what it was and but clearly didn't became what she became all that consciously and intentionally.

- The ultimate point In the final fight is that we breaks her out of her brainwashed vision and thus she starts to understand the reality more clearly, starts to remember and her real thoughts and doubts sparks on her mind. Even tho it isn't fully the black and white situation she describes that "NONE of this is her fault"(which she also clearly knows), It is clearly not her attempt at manipulating at all as some may be tempted to just assume but simply the reality sparks on her mind and her true Rachel comes crashing down to her... It is also her trying to justify to herself because she knows she is now responsible for bad things but clearly feels the need to explain that it wasn't her intention to became what she became and that her road to becoming it wasn't really in her intentions or in her agency - that she was young and clearly couldn't resist or handle what she was exposed to which is also completely reasonable to conclude considering everything you can learn about her origin and person as explained above.

Sorry for the wall, i hope i gave you a well defined answer. Lastly i think what i explained in my previous post that going into psychological understanding to how brainwashing works and how it affects people is key to fully understanding her story and key to understanding the fact that if someone isn't physically forced doesn't at all mean that they are willing which most definitely applies to cults aswell.

[redreart]

Who's your favorite police officer in Far Cry 5?

Joey Hudson

Nancy

Staci Pratt

Earl Whitehorse

Voting ended onApr 10, 2023

[thespokentruth28]

Why do you think people refuse to see Faith Seed as a victim of the cult? I'm asking because you're clearly not too uncomfortable with the canon reality that she was one of many women drawn in by Joseph and in the end she was one if the few he selected and manipulated into becoming Faith Seed.

Hey.

Generally it is simply because a lot of people here are just very biased from what I've seen...

A lot of the players I've seen who are quick to demoralize Faith or blush off the tragedy and victimization to her character are a lot of times "fangirls" of Joseph who at the very same time are very quick to paint him as "misunderstood" by writing several paragraphs pointing out all kinds of flaws and tragedy about him(and John aswell) despite that they in the narrative never are painted as actual victims of this cult or people with a lack of personal agency unlike Faith is... It directly shows off the extreme bias that they just doesn't want to acknowledge Faith's tragedy and victim narrative because it creates some disturbing implications about Joseph and i think that is the main reason they dont like it - that her character and story regarding the "Faith's" shows a fairly disturbing image of Joseph's character.

That's why they have a tendency to attempt to twist Faith into this self motivated femme fatale and almost evil born master manipulator who is exactly where she always wanted to be, completely negating that she is a victim of Joseph/the bliss herself to take away the disturbing implications to him even tho it couldn't be more objectively incorrect. Likewise flawedly attempts to gaslight people who view her as a victim and feel she needed to be saved into thinking that they are manipulated by her or that she "tricked them" which is also very incorrect as she objectively and easily can be termed the most tragic, sympathetic, redeemable and not least youngest antagonist of the whole franchise... Generally just swallows the resistance words about her, dismissing every sympathy aspect or everything she says as a lie or her attempting to manipulate you which is a big misinterpretation and also extremely one sided. The whole point is that Faith is equally manipulated herself, manipulated to do the same to others believing she does good.

The argument that people are tricked or manipulated by her if they want to save her, or the argument that Faith's claims and screams about the Father is an attempt at manipulation also makes no sense as it is very much the other way around and achieves the very opposite: Acknowledging Faith's victimized narrative and thus wanting to help her OUT of the cult and redeeming her is very much the opposite of being manipulated by her and it does the opposite of the purpose assigned to her in the cult - "to make people see the god and savior that Joseph is". Again Faith's whole backstory under the surface kinda only makes the cult and Joseph in particular more disturbing as it really showcases how he grooms these young vulnerable teenage girls into the cult, exposes them to abuse, exploation and brainwashing and then discards them when used up. Wanting to save her or feeling sympathy towards her is literally the opposite of being manipulated by her or tempted to join as her actual job from Joseph is to bring people in trust to the cult and Joseph - not showing him more as a disturbing, abusive victimizer which she indirectly clearly does a lot of times and directly a few times.

All this is why people attempts to twist her more into this evil and self motivated "femme fatale" villain as it takes all the above away from Joseph and demoralize her... The players who negates Faith's victimization in favor of Joseph are clearly the ones manipulated and not looking at things from any objective pov...

People can interpretate media how they want and likewise be as subjective as they want but i think it is disturbing that people with this "fangirl" mentality completely and seriously erase a young(barely an adult) victimized female character in a narrative because they doesn't want the several decades older male character to be responsible for obvious disturbing things and highlighted in the exploitation, abuse and manipulation of this young woman in particular and likewise the murder/removal of several other young women before her who were discarded as toilet paper just as the current one is treated if she disobeys Joseph or derails from her "Faith" role as very definitely explained...

In the end I'm very much into looking at things from an objective and factual viewpoint according to what the game actually says even tho i may still find it disturbing. One have to be either extremely biased, directly ignorant to game evidence, lacking in psychological understanding or manipulated by Joseph to NOT view Faith as a victim of both him and the bliss and generally not viewing her as the tragic character caught up in a bad situation without intentions to become what she became. That she was groomed/indoctrinated into extreme ideologies at a young age through fear, brainwashing and isolation to anything outside of the cult. Her true tragedy and lack of personal agency/motivation in what she got into and became is already very present even before taking all the brainwashing and victimization aspects into her character which happened later on because of her young age and fragile mental state combined which made her a perfect subject for Joseph to carve her into exactly what he wanted.

I'm sorry for the wall but this is my detailed take on why some players having a hard time acknowledging her as the victimized character she objectively is.