The connection between Tidus and Shuyin
Hi everyone. I said I would explain my theory of the connection between Shuyin and Tidus, so here it is!
This is a topic I’ve been contemplating since 2003 when I first played FFX-2. It’s pretty much accepted in the fandom that Tidus is the dream version of Shuyin. But the fact is, neither of the games actually ever say this fact in so many words. So some people have argued that they just look alike - and nothing else. This is backed up by the Ultimania (rightfully) pointing out there is a 1,000 year difference between the start of Dream Zanarkand and the birth of Tidus. Because of this, many people believe Tidus could be a descendant of Dream Shuyin, but nothing further. Others believe there’s no real connection between them at all - stating their personalities are too different.
I personally don’t agree with those theories. I personally don’t believe they are not connected - since the game so heavily implies they are. I DO, however, believe Tidus is a descendant of Dream Shuyin, but he is ALSO the dream version of Shuyin.
Confused?
I will explain at the bottom of this post. But first, I want to debunk the notion that they simply look and sound alike, and nothing else. I want to prove that Tidus is the dream version of Shuyin.
The evidence:
They look alike
This one is obvious. Shuyin and Tidus look enough alike that it made Yuna, Kimhari, Rikku, Lulu, and Wakka all believe the sphere containing his image was Tidus.
Now, do they look exactly alike? No. But there is a 1,000 year difference between them. This begs the question of how Tidus could be a dream version of Shuyin if 1,000 years separate them? (Remember, Tidus did NOT time travel. He was born in modern day Dream Zanarkand, which physically resided off the coast of Baaj Temple). I’ll explain my theory on how Tidus and Shuyin can be separated by 1,000 years AND Tidus can still be the dream version of Shuyin. And the theory I hold explains the small difference between them. But for now, I think they look close enough alike to establish there is a connection between them.
Color scheme
The pictures above show the character models of both Tidus and Shuyin. They both have the same blonde hair. Both have a blue shoulder pad (Tidus has one and Shuyin has both sides - also note the above Shuyin picture is darker, but the shoulder pads are blue). They are both wearing a shirt under their overalls - which is yellow. Their overalls are black. They both have an arm guard on their left hand, with some red coloring above the arm guard (Tidus’ mesh red and Shuyin’s checkered red and black. Both have black pants (although Tidus is missing some of his. lol) And both have yellow and black boots. Both have blue swords (Shuyin’s is darker here, but in the game his sword is blue). Their color scheme is essentially the same - yellow, red, black, and blue
Voice
I probably won’t have to go into detail with this one. They have the same voice actor. lol. Shuyin’s voice is deeper than Tidus’, but it is essentially the same voice as Tidus’. If you listen to Tidus during the more serious scenes of X and X-2, you can hear him lose the more higher pitch sound of his voice, and the voice becomes more like Shuyin’s. My guess is that when they’re both serious, they sound the same. Maybe when Shuyin was happy and fun-loving, his voice was more like Tidus’?
Moves/Overdrives
This is the one which I think absolutely refutes the idea that Tidus and Shuyin are not connected, which states Tidus is not a dream version of Shuyin. You could make the case that it’s coincidence they look and sound similar. You can make the case that Tidus might just be related to the real dream Zanarkand Shuyin (the great-great-great-great-however many greats 1,000 years would be grandson of Dream Shuyin), but these arguments make NO SENSE considering they have LITERALLY THE SAME OVERDRIVES. Please watch the following videos to see what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOhfLkHpJ7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWwdJKrZpvc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBsz2_ldQE
Their overdrives are the same. Tidus’ Spiral Cut is Shuyin’s Spin Cut. Tidus’ Slice and Dice is Shuyin’s Hit and Run. Tidus’ Energy Rain is Shuyin’s Force Rain. And Tidus’ Blitz Ace is Shuyin’s Terror of Zanarkand (heh. my username)
Also note their mannerisms and battle stance in the videos. The models for battles are the exact same in animation
Overly emotional and acts before thinking/saving the summoner at all costs
Both Tidus and Shuyin are overly emotional - they are both quick to anger, quick to become upset, and both don’t hide their emotions in very well. Tidus shows this consistently throughout X and Shuyin’s rage and despair become so intense it starts possessing people. They both had the mindset of “I need to save the summoner at all costs”. They difference between Tidus and Shuyin is that Tidus succeeded, Shuyin did not. It makes you wonder what Tidus would have been like if he hadn’t succeeded? Or what Shuyin would have been like if he had succeeded?
Den of Woe possessions - The hug
Here’s another one that I just cannot fathom how someone can see this scene and think “yeah no, there’s no real connection between these two. Them looking alike is merely coincidence”
Shuyin possesses people when they enter the Den of Woe. You see this in numerous spheres and when the characters enter the Den of Woe. Typically, his pyreflies invade their minds/bodies. No real dramatic moment of possession. But notice how he choices to possess Rikku and Yuna:
Jump to 1:12-2:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2M7QzNj8wQ
Now compare to the hug between Tidus and Yuna: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRWkniXDC_4 (3:20)
And this scene during the Sad Ending: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3vO3cgBSDM (13:45)
“He’s like a dream... or a nightmare” “2 year old nightmare - older than that”
In X-2, Shuyin is referred to as a nightmare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2M7QzNj8wQ (:45) and (7:15). I believe this is referencing the fact that Tidus is a dream, and Shuyin is the nightmare.
“This is our story, Lenne”
Come on now...there can’t be two idiots running around saying this without them being connected. Come on.
Here’s another one that is just screaming “TIDUS” in our faces. Jump to 3:46
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2M7QzNj8wQ
If Shuyin and Tidus weren’t connected, don’t you think this would be a wild coincidence that they have essentially the same catch phrase? Others use the “story” catchphrase too, like Auron saying it to Tidus, and Yuna stating it. But Auron is the one who gave him the idea of “This is your story”. Yuna says it because she was inspired by Tidus. Why would Shuyin be saying it if it wasn’t something he typically said to Lenne?
Maechen implies it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lIjDUUw6h8
“The fact that he should look like the man in that sphere cannot be mere coincidence” - Maechen, in the video game stating it’s not a coincidence they look alike. This takes place during Chapter 3.
Maechen is also about to make what the connection is - Shuyin is a real person who lived in real Zanarkand. Tidus, residing in dream Zanarkand, is a dream of someone from real Zanarkand. After discovering Tidus is a dream, Maechen suddenly comes to the realization, but then conveniently (for plot reasons - they can’t just tell us at this point in the story), forgets what he’s about to say.
“Put that crybaby to sleep”
Jecht refers to Shuyin as a crybaby like he did with Tidus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOhfLkHpJ7I (1:06)
“Whatever his name, the youth endeavored to steal the machina weapon and save Lenne/His name has been lost to history”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPrESKqROys (32:10)
While discussing the history of Lenne and Shuyin, Maechen forgets Shuyin’s name. I have a feeling this was intentional. He refers to Shuyin as “whatever his name” and says “his name has been lost to history”. Why would the writers have that in the script? Because Tidus’ name is never once stated in X or X-2. In their world, Tidus’ name was also lost to history. He was constantly referred to as “Him”, “Star player”, “Son of Jecht”, etc.
Image from Illustration book stating he’s a blitzball player
I have a theory Shuyin is a blitzball player. This is never actually stated in the game, but it is stated in the FINAL FANTASY X-2 Visual Art Collection Illustration Book
Use of Wakka’s ultimate weapon. And ability to do final part of overdrive/move
Shuyin’s overdrive (Terror of Zanarkand) also features Wakka’s ultimate weapon (World Champion)
Shuyin was also able to complete the final part of the overdrive which requires him to kick the ball in a fashion Tidus was able to do to impress Wakka and Besaid Aurochs; something Shuyin wouldn’t know how to do unless he was also a talented Blitzball player.
“I’m grateful you stayed with me until the end”
This is something which is stated between Yuna and Tidus, and Yuna (as Lenne) and Shuyin
“I saw this sphere of you”
Ultimately Yuna still refers to the sphere as one of Tidus, even at the end of the game.
Okay, so now that I’ve established they are connected somehow - the question becomes: how are they connected?
Many people point to the fact that FFX-2 Ultimania guide states
“The appearance and voice of Shuyin resemble Tidus, but the two are completely different in actuality. Shuyin is a man of the past; he lived 1000 years ago in Zanarkand, the metropolis city of summoners. Tidus, a pyreform, was a resident of its summoned replica, Dream Zanarkand. Be that as it may, Dream Zanarkand was in fact created with the idea in mind that it be the ideal [representation] of Zanarkand's existance, a wish given form. Since its existence was the model for everything in Dream Zanarkand, this extends to its inhabitants also. When thinking about this with regard to Tidus, one cannot deny the possibility that this [was the case] with his personage and Shuyin. However, most inhabitants of Dream Zanarkand would marry one another and have children, continuing the cycle of life. For this reason, the genes of the dream's inhabitants began to blend in a complicated way, and with these impurities, the duplication of [Shuyin's] personage cannot be certain. Even if it is true that Shuyin was the model for Tidus, this would not mean that their connection is close.”
https://www.ign.com/faqs/2006/final-fantasy-x-2-ultimania-faq-702971
What this is stating is that Dream Shuyin would have lived 1,000 years ago when Dream Zanarkand began. Tidus lives in modern day Dream Zanarkand. Tidus, though, could be the descendant of Dream Shuyin. It then goes on to make the conclusion there is not much of a connection (even though the game directly says there is). In my opinion, the Ultimania is right that Tidus is the descendant of Dream Shuyin. But also, I do believe the analysis is wrong, because he IS Dream Shuyin at the same time. How can this be?
The Fayth create the people in Dream Zanarkand based on the people that lived in Real Zanarkand.
This would have happened 1,000 years ago. I imagine they probably would have made, at most, 4 generations of Zanarkand(ians?) dream people. Group A being the oldest generation. Then group B. Then group C. And group D being the babies. Once Group A died out, and the other groups began to grow up, there would be a need for another generation - Group E - a generation which never existed in the Real Zanarkand.
The Fayth probably would need inspiration for making this Group E generation, and considering they only had the original 4 generations as a guide/inspiration, Group A would have come back in the form of Group E. They would have reused the pyreflies to reacreate the people of Group A. Meaning, the babies of group E were actually a remake of group A. Think of it like reincarnation. The Fayth couldn’t create brand new people because they were specifically dreaming the memories and people of the original Zanarkand, so they essentially recycled the same people over and over again. This is reflected in the quote from the Ultimania: “However, most inhabitants of Dream Zanarkand would marry one another and have children, continuing the cycle of life. For this reason, the genes of the dream’s inhabitants began to blend in a complicated way, and with these impurities, the duplication of [Shuyin’s] personage cannot be certain”
“Even if it is true that Shuyin was the model for Tidus, this would not mean that their connection is close.”
To me, this is saying Tidus can still be a model of Shuyin, but after 1,000 years; their connection and similarities aren’t going to be close because a millennium has passed. Tidus has changed over the years to become his own person.
Back to the generations theory- Group B would die out and become group F. Group C would die out about become group G. Etc, etc, etc. With each hundred of years or so, the same people would keep reappearing - albeit with differences because the Fayth have been dreaming for a long time and are likely to forget some details. Each generation would see the dream people becoming unique compared to the original dreams, and unique compared to the original residents of real Zanarkand.
With time, Group A became Group E (and were slightly different), then they were Group I (with differences again), then Group M (with differences), Group Q (with even more differences), etc. This would actually be beneficial for the Fayth to do, they can continue making the same people over and over (never running out of material); and the small difference made between each generation would make it seem as though the family has certain qualities and traits which run in the family...but the differences would be enough that it wouldn’t cause suspicion (like hey...this family has had a blitzball played named Jecht for several generations. And his story is always the same... How odd). Maybe with each generation, they gained a new name and other new things about them so that they’re not -entirely- the same. There would be differences compared to the previous generations.
I imagine Tidus would have been the tenth incarnation of Shuyin (going by the every 100 years rule). Ten turns out be a neat number considered the game’s titles being of the tenth in the series. Tidus would simultaneously be the reincarnation of Dream Shuyin (the 10th incarnation of Dream Shuyin), and he’d be the descendant of Dream Shuyin (and hence, not the original. And this explains the differences between Tidus and Shuyin - they’re close; but not exactly the same). Tidus would be an imperfect memory of Shuyin. This theory both fits with the Ultimania and with the evidence found in the game. It fits with what most fans believe - that Tidus is the dream version of Shuyin. But it also accounts for the differences between them, as well as the 1,000 year time difference between them. So, ultimately, Tidus is still his own unique person; but his template is based on a memory of Shuyin
I hope this makes sense. Let me know what you all think
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One last piece of evidence (updated May 11th, 2024):
I met the voice actor for Tidus/Shuyin (James Arnold Taylor) and asked him directly what he thinks the connection is
He told me that what he was told (while voicing Shuyin in X-2) was that Shuyin and Tidus are the same person, but Shuyin is like the “evil” Tidus. The original idea for X-2 was to have it that only one of them could exist in Spira at a certain point, and that only one of them is “real”. To be honest I didn’t ask anything further for clarification on this storyline bc I was do nervous about meeting him lol.
I also watched KupoCon (I think 2021) and remember he referred to his X-2 character as “Tidus, but a very different Tidus”.
Speaking with him about it, he seemed very sure on them being directly connected
So there you go. Straight from the blitzer’s mouth. Granted, he’s the voice actor and not necessarily one of the writers of X-2. But in my opinion, this provides further evidence to them being connected :)
