Complete Works of Yoshiyuki Tomino - Yasuhiko Yoshikazu Interview Excerpt
Book Released 1999
Mr. Yasuhiko is an indispensable member of the "Mobile Suit Gundam" staff, and he is also an integral part of early Tomino works such as "Raideen the Brave" and "Invincible Super Man Zambot 3".
We interviewed Mr. Yasuhiko, who has since moved his activities to the manga world, about his work with Mr. Tomino.
The Wandering Storyboard Man
--Mr. Yasuhiko, you joined Mushi Productions in 1970, and the first work you were involved in was The Wandering Sun. Were you aware that Mr. Tomino worked as an (enshutsu) director on that show?
Yasuhiko: Yes, I was aware. At that time, he was famous in the industry for showing up here and there and drawing many storyboards.
--He was famous in the industry?
Yasuhiko: He was fast at drawing storyboards. I also considered myself on the faster side, but there used to be a saying, "If you ask Tomino to make a storyboard, he will finish it in three days.” People like that were very precious in the industry, so everyone asked him to do it.
--You were involved in the production of Raideen the Brave from the planning stage, weren't you? Did Mr. Tomino participate as a staff member at that time?
Yasuhiko: He was not present during the planning stage. When we actually started the series, we had to decide who to ask to be the CD (chief director), and there were a lot of different ideas, but in the end, I heard that Tomino was chosen. When I heard the news, I thought, “Oh, /that/ Tomino-san?” and found it unexpected.
--Did Mr. Yasuhiko move directly from Mushi Productions to Soeisha (early Sunrise)?
Yasuhiko: I was not affiliated with Soeisha, but I went there as a freelancer to get work.
--So when you went to Soeisha, did you find Mr. Tomino there as well?
Yasuhiko: He also wasn’t affiliated with anyone at the time, a wandering storyboard artist (laughs), so it was like, "Oh, so he's working here, too.”
--What was Soeisha like at that time? I believe that the company had just been established and was making films such as Zero Tester.
Yasuhiko: Zero Tester was our second work. When I went to work at that time, I found that Mr. Tomino was an episode director on that show as well.
--At that time, there was Toei Doga, Tatsunoko Productions, Tezuka Productions, Nishizaki Productions, and so on. Being among those names, did the works produced by Soeisha receive any attention?
Yasuhiko: No, not at all. It was a company that would’ve fallen apart with the lightest of touches. We hadn’t produced anything good yet, so it was natural that we did not attract attention.
--When was Mr. Tomino chosen to direct Raideen?
Yasuhiko: I don't know. I think it was at the very last minute when we were about to start making the series. It was so long ago that I don't remember much about it.
--From Mr. Yasuhiko’s point of view, what kind of person was Mr. Tomino at the time?
Yasuhiko: He was a very unserious person. The nickname, 'Wandering Storyboard Man' also had a light nuance, implying that he’s that one guy who is just kind of there wherever you go. So when it was decided that Mr. Tomino would be the director of Raideen, to put it bluntly, my first thoughts were “Mr. Tomino? That shallow guy?” At that time, I didn't know about Triton of the Sea, so I wasn’t aware that he had a few interesting works under his belt. I didn't even know he had worked as a director before. It's a bad way to put it, but I had an image of someone who scattered storyboards everywhere. A fast drawer.
--When you say “scattered”, how would you rate his work in terms of quality?
Yasuhiko: It was not high by any means.
--So you would say he only does work to a certain standard.
Yasuhiko: I mean, his storyboards are pretty silly. There are a lot of people who draw more simple storyboards. Their storyboards are not bad, but rather, just okay. His storyboards are not like that, but more like, "Are you being serious!?” But they were fast. Because people who work fast were treasured, many places asked for him. However, Mr. Tomino's storyboards were not well received by animators. There were a lot of cuts that made you say, "Are you kidding me? What was he thinking?!”
--In the sense that it would be hard to animate?
Yasuhiko: Yes, they make you wonder, "Why do I have to make all these cuts?” I think the situation is still the same today, but a TV series is made with a cheap budget of about 3,000 frames for 20 minutes or so. That 3,000 is after taking into account the minimum number of movements that are absolutely necessary for the story to make sense. If you do anything extra, you will soon end up with 4,000 or 5,000 frames.
Under such circumstances, Mr. Tomino's storyboards are full of unnecessary details. This made his storyboards very difficult to accept. For example, when the main character is performing something in the center of the screen, there are passersby in the background who are doing something unrelated to the main character. When I see that, I get angry. Do you know how many extra pages it costs me to do something like that? During drawing meetings, I would often remove them and say, "No one will notice that detail.” If Mr. Tomino hears about this, he might get angry though.
--Mr. Tomino graduated from the Nihon University College of Art as a film major. Was that kind of film orientation, or rather, the live-action orientation and the anime industry at the time incompatible?
Yasuhiko: It's incompatible, isn't it? Thinking back on it now, I really believe so. They were drawing storyboards that were not limited animation style. Such people draw storyboards that are elaborate in a good sense, but if they get too overly elaborate, they are shunned. They work too slowly, and the story becomes tedious. But with Mr. Tomino, he is light, so people don't really turn away from him. He can complete a storyboard in three days, no matter how much he elaborates or plays around with it. And the parts that make you go, “what the heck is this?” we would simply cut out later. Even so, he never complains. That's the kind of person he is. So it wasn't just me. I think there were many people who looked at him and said, "Tomino? Oh, that unserious director.”
The enthusiasm from the lovely dovey wife bento box!
--At the time of Raideen, you were working with C.D. Tomino as an animation director, but were the storyboards drawn there different from the storyboards he drew before that?
Yasuhiko: Storyboard quality was the same.
--In terms of directing?
Yasuhiko: To be frank, at first I thought, "What the heck, Tomino again?” However, I probably should talk about this, but he came to work with a magnificent bento box. I wonder if they still exist today, but it was a warmed-in-the-pot type bento, essentially what we call an "aisai-bento" (lunch box from a loving wife). At that time, we were at a point in our lives where we were content to eat whatever as long as we could fill our bellies. Of course, it was a show of his wife's support, but I also felt he was very enthusiastic about his work. Seeing his lunch box. It's a strange story (laughs). I had thought he was just unserious, but at that moment I thought his enthusiasm was quite unusual. He was very motivated, and even though he came in later, he was very proactive, saying, "I'm going to make this in my own color," and suggesting we do this and that.
--I believe it’s been a while since the production has started, how are you feeling now that it’s in motion?
Tomino: To be frank, I’m in a bind because there’s only stupid directors around. I want them to understand with their whole body that a show like ZZ is harder to create than Zeta. There is not as much liveliness as I imagined on screen. If it doesn’t become 2 times more interesting than it is currently, I’ll be in trouble, is how I feel right now.
--There’s a gap between ZZ and the ‘Gundam World’ up until now?
Tomino: In terms of the gap, I believe I filled it in the first two episodes. In fact, I think we’re still too caught up by Zeta. ZZ is an entirely new show so I’d like the directors to consider that more. Sure, the pre-established world building and positioning of the Gundam World still exists but what I truly want people to perceive is how interesting it is when the cast changes, the entire atmosphere can change this much. Of course, there are voices saying, “Gundam is Gundam so it’d be an issue if you made it Xabungle.” Which is valid, but there’s also the side of me thinking, just ignore the backdrop of Gundam and make it interesting!! To be truthful, I want ZZ to be so fun that it overpowers those voices of the adults.
A part of me is feeling, “Do I have to draw all the storyboards myself?” but I’ve made it my theme to grow directors and planners in these 3 years so I can’t do that now.
--Then is there anyone in the staff that can become the next Chief Director?
Tomino: There is no one in particular but there are people who I feel will be in trouble if they don’t start showing some stamina soon. Competition is starting to arise among the staff, which is not a bad situation at all. If they were truly stupid, I wouldn’t be able to call them stupid. Therefore, in regards to ZZ, I’d like us to continue working for another year just like this. Then, I’d be more clearly able to pinpoint whether the next chief director is among them. I am also eager for this to happen. If someone like that appears, I wouldn’t have to be the chief director year after year. To continue being the CD for this long is unusual, and as the person in that situation, I think I have the right to say, “We’re reaching the limit.”
--In regards to the story, will Char’s appearance be from the 3 cour onwards?
Tomino: I believe so. However, if ZZ continues to be supported even with the way the show is structured currently, there is a chance that he may not appear at all. In that case, Char is probably dead in a ditch somewhere. The target audience for ZZ is children after all, so it is highly possible that Char doesn’t make an appearance. If we target high schoolers, they will cease to be our customers in 5 years so I’d like to focus on the reactions of fourth and fifth graders.
Suzuki Yumiko Interview
*Main screenwriter*
--Judau and crew ended up boarding the Argama, what will follow?
Suzuki: Leina will be caught by the enemy around episode 11 or 12. And Judau will finally become serious because of this. He doesn’t have any other great ambitions that he’s living his life by, so he usually gets caught up by whatever is directly in front of him. However, he will work hard towards getting Leina back. The problem is that Beecha and Mondo will betray them and join Axis in hopes of finding success with them. They fail and end up coming back though… There are rumors that Bright is going to have an affair but if he does that it’ll be awkward when he comes back to Earth… Also around episode 20, there’ll be a story of the Argama going to the Moon and we have plans for Wong Lee showing up then. He tries to “correct” Judau and gang but he fails and falls into shock. This is one of the ways ZZ will differ from Zeta. In Zeta, the plot moved faster than we can digest the characters but the theme of ZZ is to let the characters breathe so I think it will go at this pace for the next 2 cours at least.
--Even among the enemy ranks, there’s several unique characters.
Suzuki: Mr. Tomino is having fun and playing around as he creates them, so there is quite the variety and their personalities are rather strange. In episode 12, Mashymre makes a mistake and a new commander, Chara Soon, appears who is a weird woman who goes into hysteria while riding a MS. And her replacement, Glemy Toto, is a princely character, or rather a rich boy, who tells Leina “this is how to be a lady” and teaches her the piano. The truth is, Glemy falls in love with Roux Louka at first sight and wants to use Leina as a tool to grow closer with Roux. At this rate, Haman will have a hard time.
--This Haman you just mentioned, what is her final agenda?
Suzuki: Isn’t it to obtain the Earth? Currently, as a first step towards that goal, she conquers colonies in order to connect to the Earth sphere….so she began a lot of skirmishes. In the end, doesn’t she believe Earth to be the core? Mineva-sama probably wants to play on Earth.
--Do Kamille, Amuro and Char make an appearance?
Suzuki: There are discussions about Kamille making an appearance in the last episode… in ZZ, the situation gets a bit brighter so I believe things will go in a good direction.
Amuro, if the setting ever moves to Earth, he might appear. He will never show up in space. Wasn’t Zeta Amuro about making the realization that “I can never go back to space”? In ZZ, I think he becomes a behind the scenes actor.
As for Char, I have no idea what he’s thinking. When he shows up, I start losing sight of the plot. If he is to show up, it’d be towards the end, probably surrounding the Mineva plot.
--I heard you wrote a fun episode towards the beginning of the second cour?
Suzuki: Episode 14 “The Forgotten Colony” and Episode 15 “The Mysterious Moon Moon” (both working titles), they’re both separate from the main story and for entertainment purposes.
There is a Sweetwater type colony that is even older than Shangri-la, called Moon Moon. After the popularization of cylindrical colonies, it became a forgotten existence. The agricultural plant is also broken so they have to farm directly on land in the colony. There, a religion which teaches the elimination of machines and aiming for a world without machinery dominates the people. The story begins when the Argama, being chased by the Endra, stops by for provisions and repair.
The original concept was supposed to feel like “Mothra” (from the Godzilla franchise) and the priestesses were inspired by The Peanuts (a twin sister duo that played the twin fairies in Mothra). And in the end, the machines would awaken all at once like “Daimajin”
It really feels like an entertainment arc, so it would be nice if people could see it more for the entertainment value and less for the plot itself. In that sense, it’s the kind of story that you could only see in ZZ. It is the first arc that is completely separate from the main story, but unlike Zeta, ZZ is leaning more towards the episodic approach so there may be more stories like this in the future. If we do that, people who begin following from the middle could also watch along too.
February 2014: Tomino and Hosoda got together for a discussion in celebration of the first TV rebroadcast of Ideon in high definition on WOWOW (Japanese broadcast station).
Original Japanese transcript: https://www.animatetimes.com/news/details.php?id=1394807331
Mr. Tomino “Mr. Hosoda is an enemy I must defeat”
The first words out of Tomino’s mouth as soon as the recording began was “Mr. Hosoda is an enemy I must defeat.”
He continued with context behind this statement, “There is a way to work hard and diligently with your peers from the same generation. If you continue to do this as you approach your 60s, however, you begin to clearly see that you’re getting older. That’s why it’s an issue if young talent doesn’t emerge.”
To this Mr. Hosoda responded, “Folks from my parent’s generation spoke to me through the shows from my childhood. Those creators that I looked up to back then continue to create work even after I, myself, have become a creator. As someone from the younger generation, I find great pleasure in this fact.” in a slightly apologetic manner.
After that, Mr. Tomino went on to discuss various topics ranging from changes in animation he experienced from his early days to the present to filmmaking theories from the vantage point of “Internet video culture” etc. Of course, there are moments where they discuss Ideon.
There is a copy of this interview on niconico: https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22942897
Written interview following the recording:
The effects that Ideon can have on modern society
――First off, what are your impressions after the recorded interview?
Hosoda: I saw Ideon on TV when I was in my first year of middle school, the films in my second year of middle school. At that time, I never dreamed that I could talk about Ideon with Director Tomino himself, so I'm very honored.
Tomino: You would think that with WOWOW and cable TV stations becoming so commonplace, it would be natural for things to be rebroadcast, but that's often not the case. Therefore, I'm really grateful that my work will be broadcast in such a situation.
In this conversation, I learned that Ideon is now a stepping stone for anime directors to enter the industry. To that I can think, “I did well” and also reaffirm that “Hosoda is an enemy I must defeat,” so of course I am happy. Because without interview opportunities like this, I wouldn’t even have a place to express my happiness.
Hosoda: That’s right. If this cross interview hadn’t happened, I would’ve just been saying “Incredible!” as I watched Ideon on WOWOW by myself (laughs).
Tomino: In that sense, I'm really grateful for this interview opportunity, and I want to tell the fans, "In life, you should put in your best effort while you have the chance."
What is the reason and significance of Ideon being broadcast on TV now?
――Do you have any impressions about Ideon being broadcast on TV?
Hosoda: There aren’t many opportunities to look back at the TV series. It’s easy to take the shortcut and just watch the movie versions, A Contact and Be Invoked. This time, you can experience watching Ideon all the way from episode 1 through the movies with the image quality that matches high-definition TV, not the image quality of VHS or DVD. This is an amazing opportunity.
Tomino: Ideon is a unique series that has never been blessed with such an opportunity so as you said, this chance is certainly valuable.
Hosoda: Since A Contact exists, it’s tempting to use it as a shortcut….if possible, it may be better to skip A Contact when you watch (laughs).
Tomino: You’re right! Cancel the broadcast of A Contact immediately!
Everybody: (laughs)
――34 years have passed since Ideon broadcast in 1980. How does modern society look from Mr. Tomino's point of view? Also, I would like to hear about the significance of broadcasting Ideon after 34 years.
Tomino: This is going to become a question of “what is intelligence?” but I feel that the political economy has deteriorated in every aspect over the last few years. So when it comes to airing an Ideon-like story right now, there is a part of me that doesn’t consider this a simple rerun of a past show. Rather, I would like you to watch Ideon and reconsider the current situation of adults.
For example, our personal computers that we use in our daily lives cannot be used without entering a password. Don’t you think it’s strange that there are tools that you can’t use without entering a password? Because I bought that laptop exercising my own rights in the form of cash yet I still need to enter a password. In a worse example, when you are using software, sometimes you get a popup saying “Click here to make it easier to use.” I don’t think this can be considered a “tool” anymore. But is there anyone who has complained about it until today?
If this situation progresses, you may be told by a manufacturer that they hold the copyright to your work because you used their software to produce it, even though you made it yourself. What would you do if you were told that?
Looking back at the current situation, the reality is that we are infringing on our personal territory. I think it is dangerous for everyone to be calm against such a reality. As the times progress, the way of looking at things and attitudes have become very vague. With that in mind, it can be said that the intellectual level of humankind has deteriorated in the last 20 years.
――So in that sense, the work Ideon appeals to young people today?
Tomino: I believe so, yes.
Hosoda: Some work have fluctuating value depending on changes in society while others remain relevant even as the world changes. I think Ideon is a work that doesn’t change, so I think people today of any situation or cultural background can enjoy it equally.
The two masters discuss each other’s influences
――How was Mr. Hosoda influenced by Ideon?
Hosoda: I wonder if there are other works that deal with such huge themes as Ideon does, including all movies and television. If you look through various works by tracing the history of movies, movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey (released in 1968) would pop up but I personally watched Ideon first and A Space Odyssey afterwards.
Through watching animation, you can have a second encounter with the history of live-action film. Knowing Ideon first will give you a better, deeper understanding of film history.
I feel that these encounters are connected to the current movie-making me.
――Mr. Tomino, what kind of points do you want to refer to from the works of Mr. Hosoda's generation?
Tomino: Since you saw my work first and later watched 2001: A Space Odyssey, you must have thought about "what that means.” When I watched 2001: A Space Odyssey, I felt that there was something missing in the movie, and thought about how to complement it, so I made Ideon. I am able to create work like this because I am a craftsman who creates through combining things rather than from a writer’s standpoint.
In my case, thanks to the genres of TV animation and giant robots, I was able to [create Ideon] using 2001: A Space Odyssey as a base. However, because I was able to pull that off, I experienced the history of my deterioration from there.
Also, just as Ideon was made under the influence of 2001: A Space Odyssey, Director Hosoda's work gave me a new kind of inspiration, "Oh, current animators are doing things in this way." That's why I have to get stubborn and think of Hosoda as the enemy.
――As the pioneer yourself, it seems like a difficult feat to admit to younger people that you’ve acknowledged them as a threat?
Tomino: Perhaps I had such a time. At this age, I just think I'm great in the sense that I’ve matured enough to say things like that (laughs).
At the same time, I'm really grateful that there are people close to me that I can say such things to. When you hate people, those feelings of hatred eventually come back to you. That's why people have to love everyone.
Hosoda: The things that Ide was trying to eradicate were those kinds of (feelings of hate), isn’t it?
Tomino: That’s right.
Mr. Tomino discusses now, Gundam and Ideon
――What kind of positions in Mr. Tomino‘s heart does Ideon and Gundam take respectively?
Tomino: It is thanks to the existence of Gundam that I have had a somewhat stable life so I am frankly grateful on that end. On the other hand, Ideon is a work that gives me pride, “the Tomino who made such a thing is amazing.” If Gundam was the only thing that existed, the statement at the beginning of the interview, “Hosoda should be defeated” would’ve been a message filled with hateful intentions. It would've not been said from a place of joy as it is now.
…..Wow! I answered this question well (laughs).
Yoshikazu Yasuhiko, the character designer and chief animation director of the original Mobile Suit Gundam anime and author of the Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin manga, shares the details behind his creative process and thoughts on female Gundam fans in this interview for Girl’s Gundam (Pub. Date 9/23/2009).
Oshii Mamoru x Anno Hideaki Char’s Counterattack Fan Club Book
Published: January 1993
Just the first 3 pages as a teaser lol
Influence
Anno: As a creator, I like CCA because you can hear Mr. Tomino’s very genuine voice in it. But Mr. Oshii, you tend to dislike doing that. You try to sugarcoat your true intentions and hide it deep within. So, it’s unexpected that someone like you enjoyed CCA.
Oshii: Well, isn’t it just that? As you said, Mr. Tomino’s raw voice is all out in the open.
Anno: Yes. It’s very direct. I think sensitive people may even harbor hatred for it.
Oshii: (Kazunori) Itou-kun apparently stopped watching 5 minutes in. When he heard the first “heavenly punishment” line, he couldn’t follow along anymore and stopped (laughs). Since he used to be at Sunrise, he probably sees more.
So [whether or not you like the movie] is probably decided by what kind of reaction you’d have to hearing lines like 修正 “correction” or 粛清 “purge” or 天誅 “heavenly punishment.” Since there’s bound to be many people who have a dislike towards words like that. Especially older people react towards “purge” and “correction.” For the pre-war faction, “correction” meant military lynching and for people after the 70s, “correction” means demonstrator/political radicals or controlled lynching. There’s also the Red Army (JRA) issue as well.
If it were a movie, they may have not been bothered by it but since it’s an animation. There is a gap between the raw human intentions and the drawn world. And that actually makes a bigger impact. So for people who dislike seeing undiluted emotions show up on screen, they just can’t do it.
Anno: I wasn’t bothered by it.
Oshii: I think you and I were making things during the awkward off season of animation. People like Miya-san (Miyazaki Hayao) who were swept along by Toei and made animations for kids versus people who were pursuing movies and ended up in an anime studio...our generation of people is the in-between, so we understand both sides. We are caught between both the part that’s making shows for kids and the part that wants to make movies that we are personally satisfied with. So, depending on where you place the center of balance, you end up making a completely different thing.
On one hand, I felt that this movie could only be accepted by people like that. The older folk just thought it was bad. People in the anime industry especially. And for younger folk, they don’t know how to process an undiluted political world like that one. Despite all of this, the theaters were pretty full. And that’s probably due to the influence of Gundam.
It was around the same time as Patlabor. Even though Mr. Tomino did whatever he wanted in Gundam, and I worked on Patlabor with the same Shochiku, when the high ups at Shochiku came to the press release for the previous Patlabor installment, they just said “I didn’t understand anything” and left. “Nothing made sense.” They were grumbling, “but robot anime originally was like this” as they went home. Which I think was thanks to Gundam (laughs).
Even so, I was impressed that a script like CCA was greenlit. How could they release something like that. Probably because they weren’t watching it very seriously. Everyone is so enchanted by the surface-level space war aspect that there’s very few people who accurately grasp Mr. Tomino’s intentions.
Anno: I didn’t understand it the first time I watched it.
Oshii: The idea itself is not anything exceptional. It doesn’t come up to the surface but… to exaggerate, this is about present day, but as a phenomenon, in Japan maybe after the 70s? Among the political ideas that collapsed in the 60s was a type of retaliation ideology….. There’s a bit of nihilism in it, but basically there existed a political thought that placed its basis on the idea that “humans are no good.” However, that never made its way into the mainstream and much less in a world like animation, the center of popular culture, the fact that it showed up so suddenly was a surprise. It was almost pure literature.
To want to retaliate against humanity or to want to correct humanity… truth be told, I also had similar thoughts. For example, the upcoming Patlabor has a bit of that in it. There’s a desire to seek revenge against a kind of deceptive inquisitiveness of this generation. However, I’m hesitant about being too direct about it (laughs)... more like I personally, am not a fan of being so direct…. And to go so far as to start saying the intellectuals that, the masses this. That part of the dialogue was probably an exact reflection of Mr. Tomino’s beliefs. As a method of expression, I would never do something like declaring my true beliefs during the movie.
Just, the one thing I don’t get is why he suddenly did something like that. I actually haven’t watched the Gundam series too seriously so when I saw that, it seemed out of the blue. Perhaps he had laid the foundations for it earlier but I actually haven’t watched anything since Zeta Gundam. Watched the first Gundam and then suddenly CCA. So I don’t know what happened in this gap but it probably wasn’t anything sudden, it was probably always present.
Anno: Yes. I think he spit out everything he had accumulated, or more like, he put an end to things.
Ideologies
Oshii: When you’re working on anime, you’re required to be different from an ordinary movie director. Even though it may look like we’re doing whatever we please, there are some things that we just can’t do. In a live action, even if it’s a bit explicit it may not be a huge problem… but with anime, there’s the first psychological barrier of the people who have to draw it. And when you think about it, the first person who did those things was Mr. Tomino. Like the child who fires in front of his mother. Or the boy or girl, I forget, that got their head blown off along with their helmet.
When I saw Ideon, I believe it was when I was working on The Wonderful Adventures of Nils at Pierrot, it gave me such a shock. And it became the topic of discussion among directors at the studio. We wondered if it was okay to make something like that. My mentor, Mr. Tori (Hisayuki Toriumi), was someone who would do rather sadistic things. Like, Gatchaman was horrible. People would get hung with chains and beaten with a whip or Joe the Condor would get his face stepped on and messed up. He’s done pretty controversial things over the years. However, he never was as raw. After all, we had passed the era where such direct expression is allowed.
There were a few taboos that were said to exist in anime, the destruction of bodies being one of them, but the bigger one that existed was probably, “politics.” To express your own political beliefs in the anime you were creating. I don’t mean things like post-war democracy or Tezuka Osamu’s humanism, etc, but radical revolutionary ideas, betrayed ressentiment (concept of resentment or hostility related to 19th century thinkers like Friedrich Neitzche), feelings of grudge, etc. have no place in anime. No one explicitly says it but as you spend time at the studio, you naturally begin to realize that’s the limit. If you want to do it, you have to change its shape. So like in Urusei Yatsura or Patlabor, I had to disguise it as a type of metaphor or a running joke. So even if you’re allowed to have a miniature battle for authority in a school setting… well, originally, even that was going too far, I was told many things by different people… it wasn’t like anyone said anything openly but no one thought to do it in the first place. The reason why is because everyone thought animation was the wrong place to be testing such ideas, who’s going to want to watch something like that.
Back when Toei made Future War 198x, circulation boards went around and the Toei Animation Company labor union went on strike and all that, but inside, there were a lot of debates happening. Especially among directors wondering how they should take it all. Regardless of the fact that the age of the average anime watcher was increasing due to the anime boom, where exactly do we place the limit? Is it okay for us to try things that an ordinary live action director might do? For the generation of directors above us, these questions existed in a more tangible form. Whenever there was destruction of bodies or kiss scenes, like Mr. Tori did once in Gatchaman, every time something like that would happen on screen, production companies would file complaints or the TV stations would complain, and there would be this back and forth. Even so, there were people who wanted to depict these things. But in other words, that was it. The complaints were only on the artistic level. What that person did in CCA is leagues beyond that.
The philosophies or policies or themes, those things aren’t in there because the movie needs it, no, the ideology is first and foremost (laughs). It’s probably forgiven because it’s underneath the umbrella of Gundam but even so, I was surprised that they could go that far.
And, I was surprised a second time when there was no reaction to it. I spoke about this with Anno over the phone but, there’s no talk about it, good or bad. Why is there no reaction to such a radical outburst? There were probably a few entries to some anime magazines, I’ve seen a few of them myself, but in the end they were just the usual debates about war in Gundam.
In that way, it was as I expected. By “as expected” I mean, even if one speaks of such ideals in animation, who is going to see it, and how? This is a problem that I’m always facing myself because the stories that I want to create aren’t reaching the audience that I desire. And that’s probably because it’s anime. If it were live action, you could just leave it alone and a bunch of critics would come along and say what they want. Even if it’s just some boring police drama, they’d dig up all this nonsense to write. Conversely, [CCA] didn’t receive attention because it was anime. Because it was anime, the ideas presented in it were overlooked. To Mr. Tomino, that was probably extremely regrettable. Because I am always experiencing similar things. The anime isn’t reaching the people who are supposed to see it. That is what I felt from it.
Anno: Anime as a method of expression is very infantile. Especially facial expressions, angry faces have raised eyebrows, crying faces have tears in their eyes, blurry pupils means they are crying; if a foreigner saw this, I don’t think they’d understand. Japanese people are trained to understand to some extent so they know “oh they’re crying right now.”
However, whether the character is crying because they are happy or because they are sad, cannot be understood through just the art, without dialogue and the whole package. So, whether hands go flying or blood is shed, at the end of day, they’re all cell humans. Even if they speak, it's just 3 frames of mouths going open and close. I think the sincere attitude of trying to go so far through such childish means of expression and in the even more remote region of robot anime is amazing. I don’t think there were any directors like this until now.
Oshii: Yeah, there weren’t. I didn’t think he would take it that far. Although, I had sensed that vibe from Gundam itself. The structure of war depicted in it probably made that kind of thing possible. I don’t know how much he had pre-planned while he was creating the initial settings for the show but… it’s probably something similar to Patlabor where you start realizing “oh this is possible too” as you go. But, I kind of understand why it came out of a robot anime. With gag anime or home drama, school stories, these things would definitely be caught in a check at some stage. It’s probably due to the very combative world of robot anime, which depicts war, that kind of thing was passed (laughs).
Anno: That’s right. It was probably only possible because it had its beginnings as “just an ad for robot toys.”
Resignation
Oshii: Back when Urusei just finished airing, I met Mr. Yasuhiko at a magazine interview. It was right when the manga, Todonotsumari, was serializing in Animage. The first thing that person said was, “Animators like the ones depicted in [that manga] don’t exist. The anime studio environment that you are creating there is the furthest from an anime studio in reality. It’s what doesn’t exist the most. Why do you do this?” That’s when I sensed a bit of the resignation or frustration that generation of uncles hold towards animation. To put it bluntly, it's a type of inferiority complex.
I, too, was told that when I entered Tatsunoko. “In the end it’s just an ad for toys. So don’t put too much effort into it. If you don’t keep it at a minimum, you’ll only feel disappointed at the end. If you become too serious about making a masterpiece or making a film, you won’t make it in this industry.” I got a lot of that. Whether they were sakuga directors, animators, producers, bosses. From different people, in different ways, I was told many things. To summarize, that’s pretty much what they’d tell me. “The anime job is not a place for that.”
I’m generalizing but the generation above us started from a place of resignation. Like the background artist who couldn’t feed themselves off of oil paintings or the animator who couldn’t become a mangaka, it’s not nice to say but the industry was full of people who drifted into it. It was that kind of world. But there were good sides to it being that kind of world. No one would comment on what other people were doing.
Like, I was told at the beginning, “Don’t criticize other people’s work.” And not only did this apply to people in my own studio but I also wasn’t allowed to say this and that about what Toei was doing. From the start I was still in the mindset of a film bro so I’d complain “what is that?” but I was told off not only by older directors but also by directors my own age. Was it Mashimo Koichi? (laughs). “It’s easy to spot as many faults as you’d like in other people’s work. So there’s an infinite number of criticisms you can make. The only thing that matters is what you yourself creates.” To that I said, “I don’t think so. I have the ability to state why boring things are boring with logic to back it up so I should be allowed to. If we don’t say these things out loud, nothing will change. In exchange, I don’t care how badly my work gets criticized.” That’s a very normal thing. Bar fights are constant in the movie industry. “Why doesn’t it work in the same way in the anime industry?” is how I felt.
So, until I met Miya-san I was always frustrated. Meeting Miya-san was the first time…. cause that person is the same way. He says whatever he wants about other people’s work…just as I thought, this kind of person does exist. Even as we argue, even as we lovingly tear each other’s work apart, we are still together. I think that’s a very important skill as a director and even beyond that, I was perplexed as to why this wasn’t allowed in the anime industry.
The one thought I always held within all of this was that, before the sponsors or stations or whatever, the anime industry carved out territory for itself and didn’t try to leave it. So when the industry was forced to the forefront with the anime boom, the previously anonymous animators and directors suddenly found themselves in the limelight. And with that, all of the inferiority complexes came flooding out in a warped way.
For example, Mr. Yasuhiko’s Crusher Joe is unnecessarily cruel. Like small animals getting turned into meat clumps with a machine gun. Or patricide or siblings killing each other. Everything that had been suppressed until now came flooding out in a very warped way. Endlessly mass producing worthless children’s media that's neither good or bad would turn one’s literary consciousness inwards. So when you’re finally able to put work out there under your own name, all of that came out. Basically what I’m saying is that the balance is off. How far can you take things, from where should you start dialing back; everyone has their own parameters based on their unique method of expression. But they let everything out, completely ignoring these parameters.
When I saw this, I was full of complicated feelings. “Why do you guys have to have such a complex towards making animation?” I hated it so much because the generation below me doesn’t really have these taboos or warped perceptions.
Anno: They really don’t.
Crime of Conscience
Oshii: On the other hand, there are many things that you can do in anime that wouldn’t be allowed in Japanese movies. Ideas that would be stamped into the rejection pile for a Japanese movie can be expressed to a certain degree in anime….is what people discovered. One way to put it is, if you take “the way anime is viewed” in a societal sense and work within those means, then anything is possible…..or at least I felt (laughs). It’s only useful up to a certain point of course. Using a tactic of pushing and retreating to mix things up while creating a proper product on the other end was how I was doing my job. At the time. Even now I feel I work in a similar way but it’s different. We become wary and don’t do it like that. We’d try to cheat things by having it take place in an alternate universe. Or if you’re trying to depict a rebellion, don’t draw it from the rebel side but from the police side instead (laughs).
Even today, although it takes a different form, the idea that animation is for kids still persists. Showing nude bodies, and not cute things like shower scenes or skirt flipping, but in the context of lovers or affairs, passionate love or a world where politics are spoken about so clearly, is going to be rejected. But if you add “somewhere out in outer space,” sometimes it slips past the radar and gets greenlit.
However, I think Mr. Tomino knew what he was doing.
Anno: I think so too.
Oshii: When I saw it, I thought “he did this on purpose.” There’s probably parts that I understand because I am also a creator. It was well balanced. There was none of the off-balanceness of Mr. Yasuhiko. Of course, what lies underneath is the same. At the foundation is this inner warped hatred towards animation movies. On the other hand, he understands that he’s just an anime person and can't express things well when he’s separate from anime. That kind of thing, however, was pretty well controlled when it came to Char’s Counterattack. Therefore, there is no doubt that it was a crime of conscience.
However, even if it was on purpose, I still think the film was too blunt. I thought it would be better to disguise it a little more, dress it up a little more, camouflage it, and wear a covering, something.
Anno: On the contrary, I thought that’s what made it so masculine or cool.
Oshii: It’s dangerous. Danger is not about being socially sanctioned, criticized, or denounced, but rather straightforward words suggesting revolution, intellectuals this and that, and correcting or imposing sanctions on humankind… if you are not careful about it, the intentions may be flipped on you. In other words, you run the risk of becoming a gag. Political language is rather delicate, isn’t it? If you do it too much, like those violent student protesters who often appear in TV dramas, it becomes a comedy act that’s so ugly you can’t even call it a parody. That’s why, in Urusei Yatsura, Megane, the plot device guy, was doing everything exaggeratedly as a running joke. That's because I thought that if I didn't do it that way, it wouldn't pass, and I, personally, wanted to see it. There was a part of me that felt detached. And that was funny in itself. The fact remains that even to me, that era, while there were some painful parts, I also felt that it was humorous. Some parts are nostalgic, and some parts make me feel even disgusted. I found some salvation in letting everything out through a plot device character like Megane. That kind of thing, if you do it seriously, it's just painful.
In short, political language is pretty delicate…. Going back to the phrase “heavenly punishment.” I’m positive that there’s people who laughed at that phrase. Because we’re talking “heavenly punishment” in a space environment. What he’s doing is describing the “February 26 Incident” verbatim but the world he’s created is a future battlefield in outer space. There’s an immense gap. The younger generation may not care about it, though. I've always felt that kind of thing from Sunrise. There is something off about them. It seems that there are people who strangely want to enumerate dead languages.
My scariest thought is that there’s probably people who laughed at CCA. That they found it comical. The fact these imperial loyalist type characters are living out the “one person one kill” kind of world in outer space. I avoided writing these kinds of stories for this exact reason. ‘Cause at some point, someone is going to laugh. Like the drama, “Hyokin Tribe” from back in the day. You write the drama very seriously and in the end, it all flips on its head. It’s the generation where (serious) things are seen in a cynical manner. I am conscious of the enemy waiting, ready to turn everything into laughs. Especially when it comes to anime, anything is possible so you take it very seriously until the very end where it’s all comedy. The moment that becomes obvious, everything you’ve accumulated becomes invalid. So I prefer it the other way around, to create the mood, “this is a lie, it’s all jokes,” and then reveal that it was actually my true intention all along. I feel that it’s more effective to build up the jokes and then bring it into the real world at the end. In short, you can’t be seen through this way. If you ask me, the modern movie goer is rather twisted. A naive audience doesn’t exist. Within that, however, many anime viewers are among the exceptionally naive. They get impressed right away. As if they’re prepared to be impressed. Compared to the average viewer, anime watchers are easy to deceive, to the point where I go, “why are you so naive?” They easily go along with your tricks. They are waiting, ready to go along with anything you offer them. It’s the same mentality as the people who come to anime events and go, “since I’m already here, I am prepared to get my money’s worth by laughing at everything, even the parts that aren’t funny, and have a good time with everyone.” From a customer’s point of view, it’s such a naive mindset….maybe even going past naive into sly territory. Speaking broadly about movies in general, half-baked drama, half-baked crying or overly sentimental things doesn’t work on audiences nowadays. Rather, they are looking for ways to laugh at it.
Ever since that TV drama, "Stewardess Monogatari", I've been endlessly wary of such things. The goal is to make people laugh, not be laughed at. The movie is useless unless we (the creators) hold on to the hegemony.
Oshii: So when I saw CCA, I thought, there are definitely people out there who got together to drink and laugh out loud while watching this movie. And those who didn’t, said they couldn’t bear to watch it and stopped watching. Since they immediately develop a dislike for it. And the people who watched it seriously are hardcore robot fans, or Gundam fans…… they probably watched it very passionately (laughs). When you remove all of that, the message is clear. It’s completely anachronistic….. well, rather than anachronistic, I think what he’s doing is to a certain extent effective. It’s similar to what I was doing last year (Patlabor 2?).....he's speaking very sincerely, but depending on what kind of world and audiences see this movie, it will become a very unfortunate movie.
Anno: I think that movie is so one-sided though. I can’t imagine he had the audience in mind while he was making it.
Oshii: Well there was a sense of agitation, “there’s no way you’ll understand!”
Anno: I get that sense from the fighting spirit of the film.
Oshii: Because humans are somewhat beyond saving, even if you look at history, we haven’t done anything good. Probably even in the next century, whether humans go out into space, humans will repeat the same stupidity, getting everything and everyone involved and ruining it. That’s why he said, if God isn’t going to do it, I will.
Tsuge (Patlabor) and Char were thinking the same thing, basically wanting to impose punishment. It’s the story of a terrorist who, even if they don’t manage to impose that punishment, can reveal the naked truth just for a moment. It's the world that Miya-san hates most (laughs).
Miyazaki Hayao
Anno: But there’s probably a part of Miya-san that actually wants to write that kind of story.
Oshii: Somewhere yes. Take Nausicaa for example, within that world called “Nausicaa” there are characters with that sort of “scent.” Even that person (Miyazaki) has his own variations of this. It’s just that he has internalized that making it a reality would be a bad thing.
Anno: But his true feelings are Lepka (Future Boy Conan) or somewhere around there.
Oshii: Yes his real thoughts are somewhere different. That’s because that person is very strategic about what he puts out into the world and how. And it’s not necessary for the work to align with his truth.
Anno: Speaking of revealing one’s truth, I had expectations for Porco Rosso but what part of that was true, damn it (laughs).
Oshii: His truth was in there. But not of observations on humanity or the world, his truths about his personal life was the only thing in it. Especially surrounding troubles with women (laughs). And of course, only people who know him personally would understand such a thing. In that sense, it goes far beyond the craftiness of Patlabor; Porco Rosso is way more sly. He let everything out in that film and even left excuses for himself.
When you take off the pig mask, Miya-san is underneath. If he truly wanted to create a world that’s so unheard of and positive like that, why did the pig need to wear a trenchcoat and smoke? They just need to be going oink oink. It would’ve been a much more fun anime that way. If he wanted to make an anime that’ll make the kids happy, then there’s no need to make it so hard boiled, they should’ve just been oinking….cause pigs don’t need to speak. The pig goes oink oink, and is for some reason is good at piloting a plane. Then it would’ve been so much fun. But it’s not like that. And the reason it's not is because he wanted to show his truth….more like, he wanted to dispel his own sorrows through making this film. The audiences had it okay but his staff who had to go along with this are so pitiful. That’s the true pig curse. I bet they couldn’t stand it. Because they’re Miya-san’s excuse.
Ikuhara Kunihiko x Anno Hideaki Char’s Counterattack Fan Club Book
Japanese transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yGEiH1fGctpMUOF1raZH4pixkMLO10v-RA1VnabCXMc/edit?usp=sharing
Background:
1988 - CCA released, Anno worked as mech designer on it
1991 - Nadia (Anno)
1992 - Porco Rosso first Miyazaki film since Kiki (1989)
1992-1993 - Ikuhara becomes series director of Sailor Moon R
1993 - Victory Gundam (Tomino)
1993 12/4 - this interview
1995 - Evangelion (Anno)
1997 - Utena (Ikuhara)
Hypocrisy and Self-Righteousness
Ikuni: I don’t have any interest in Gundam’s story or mechs, much less in the investigation of classical SF tropes. The only thing I’m interested in are humans.
Anno: Human drama?
Ikuni: The positioning of characters, the way they are portrayed I guess. I was particularly interested in their positions… At first, I didn’t understand anything. I actually watched the film in theaters twice. Aren’t I amazing? Everyone gets surprised when I say that. “Why did you watch THAT two times” (laughs). In the end, I think I liked Tomino-san. I liked the Tomino that was vividly blowing everyone away. And the fact that it was Tomino’s first original piqued my curiosity.
At the time, I watched it once, didn’t understand anything, so I went one more time...I went with a different friend each time but I remember both times the friend I was with would get very pissed off (laughs).
Anno: They were pissed because the movie didn’t make any sense?
Ikuni: Yup. Both of them were animators. Animators are probably constantly thinking about how much return, aka. happiness, they receive in exchange for their abilities. They themselves didn’t work on Gundam but they were angry, “I can’t laugh when I think about the suffering of the animators who were forced to make this!”
But once you experience directing, you begin to understand Tomino’s feelings.
Basically the sponsors, be it Sunrise or Bandai or Kadokawa, well, the fools, are yelling at you to make work from their safe zone, the title of the sponsor.
So the Char Aznable known as Tomino Yoshiyuki says, “Fine, I will make you something…. But there’s a catch. I’m going to make something no one wished for and fling it into your so called safe zone” and that’s how CCA came to be.
And so, to Tomino Yoshiyuki=Char Aznable, it didn’t matter whether he used underhanded methods, tricked the sponsors and made a completely self-mastorbatory film as long as he could show the world his self-righteous justice; that’s the kind of self-righteous film he is trying to make.
To go against that, another Tomino known as Amuro Ray shows up. This Tomino Yoshiyuki says, “Even if this production has foolish sponsors who are paying money to have it be made, that’s how the animators and other staff members are making a living so you’ve got to work hard and make something that will make everyone happy.” He spouts that kind of hypocrisy.
The hypocritical justice and the self-righteous justice fights in outer space over an asteroid - the asteroid being the film Char’s Counterattack itself - is what I’ve begun to realize this film is about. So I didn’t quite know how to feel after finishing the film. In the end, the asteroid didn’t fall.
Anno: Tomino still believed in the future?
Ikuni: That’s probably true. I’m going to say something stupid and dramatic again but. Once you equate Char to Tomino, you start thinking maybe he didn’t want to drop the asteroid in the end.
In other words, he says he’s going to make something to get back at the fools but when he thinks about all the staff involved in the project, he can’t actually pull it off so he wanted someone to stop him, which is where Amuro of justice comes in.
To make a surface level comparison of this battle between hypocrisy and self-righteousness, - I experience this personally, and perhaps you do too, Mr. Anno - when you are trying to produce something, there are times when you have to lash out at people and hurt them. During those times, the naïve people who step up and say, “You can’t do something like that, we all have to work together” really piss me off. I want to yell “If it can be done, you take a shot at it” but basically Amuro Ray is one of those naïve people.
However, when you look at it objectively, when hypocrisy and self-righteousness face off, there is a part of you that wants the hypocrite to win. Self-righteous people don’t have much of a future but the hypocrite....if they stand by their hypocrisy, then it will become a perfect justice. Therefore, when the hypocrite says such things, self-righteous people like me, and Mr. Anno and Mr. Tomino, want to tell them, “then follow through with your words and make it justice.”
That’s why in the end, Char gives Amuro -I forget the name but- some chip like thing.
Anno: The Psychoframe
Ikuni: Psychoframe. And by giving it to Amuro, Char’s plans end up getting foiled but I start thinking maybe Char wanted to be stopped. He wanted someone to stop him from dropping the asteroid, in other words, destroying the [anime] industry.
Anno: It’s probably an atonement. To dig deeper, by making a film like that, he probably wanted to save himself (laughs) double the self-righteousness. Also, no matter how many realities you cram into a film, at the end of the day, the audience is paying money to see a dream. In the end, you have to show them that nice dream.
Ikuni: And that is Mr. Tomino’s kindness.
Anno: Nah, I think he might be a salesman (laughs). It’s his job. Despairing people want to see hope and people full of hope want to see despair. Audiences tend to wish for what they don’t have.
Nanai Miguel and Lalah Sune
Ikuni: In Char’s Counterattack, there are many interesting character positions, Gyunei, Quess, Hathaway, and-- I don’t think anyone gives Nanai much thought- but for me, Nanai is on my mind (laughs).
Anno: Nanai huh.
Ikuni: I’m interested in Nanai. How do I explain this? At the end, Char says “Something something my mother,” right? When I thought about it, Nanai was constantly hugging Char into her chest and was acting exactly like a mother. So when you consider “then why did Char throw her away in the end?” you realize that Char knows that Nanai is lying to him. Essentially, he knows that Nanai can’t possibly become a mother. At the very end, when Nanai cuts in while Char is fighting Amuro, Char says, “Don’t come between men,” and Nanai replies with something a real mother would never say, “Are you going to abandon us?”
For example, Lalah would never say something like that. Char knew from the beginning that Nanai was that kind of woman. He knows, but he can’t live without her. It's a bold way of thinking. Even though he knows it’s fake, he still hangs on to it. I kind of understand his feelings as a fellow man.
Anno: The weak part?
Ikuni: The weakness.
Anno: Yeah since Lalah is dead
Ikuni: I think he sees Lalah in a positive light partially because she died. For example, girls tend to use fine-sounding phrases like “I love you regardless of your status, position or money” but it’s hard not to think “that’s all lies and you actually care that I have my current position and status, don’t you?”
Anno: Well yea, it’s better to have than to be without
Ikuni: That’s what I’m saying. Just, the reason why Char is drawn to Lalah is because she is dead. What her death signifies is, for example, if one day Char says, “I’m tired of being commander, I’m going to go to a warm tropical island and live leisurely,” Lalah would come along. And of course, Nanai would too.
However, the biggest difference between the two of them is that Nanai would dutifully serve him as a mother and as a woman with the burning hope that he will one day return to his former glory as commander. Except that on the day that Char insists that he is exhausted and will remain living leisurely on this island, Nanai will flip and say, “the old you would’ve never said something like that” and leave him.
In Char’s imagination, Lalah would say, “Such a life is also one’s happiness so let’s live together leisurely.” This is the delusion he holds towards her.
Anno: Lalah’s biggest problem is that she said the same thing to Amuro. So we want her to deny one or the other.
Ikuni: That’s true. I just can’t help but see Gundam as a metaphor for the industry LOL. Of course, I don’t know what Tomino’s true intentions were. If you think of it as an industry metaphor, the field of vision becomes narrow but I’m part of the industry so I can’t help it. In a broader scope, it may be a miniature drama of society. The human relationships making up society might actually be just like that.
In CCA, Char talks about all these difficult, complex things, even politics come up, but I think to myself, “none of that actually matters right, Char Aznable? All you actually want to do is throw a rock at people who piss you off.” (laughs). “In actuality, there are no political ideals backing your plans.” and that’s what’s nice about CCA.
Anno: Recently, I’m angry about things within the industry all the time. And I learned that when people like me get pissed, we drop an asteroid like Char. In that way, I realized that I’m very pure towards anime (laughs).
Views on Romance and Women
Ikuni: Char’s Counterattack is similar to a romance movie. You don’t see it at first, of course. Only Gundams show up, it’s all mechas. They’re only doing weird things and talking about politics, and there’s not a hint of sexiness coming from the screen. But if you look closely, you’ll find something very similar to romantic movies and it feels good.
For example, Tomino Yoshiyuki is the series director of a little something called Sailor Moon and I, Gyunei Guss, exists as one (1) episode director.
So, Tomino Yoshiyuki is Char Aznable, the series director of Sailor Moon. And there is Quess, the character designer and animation director. Char Aznable thinks Quess and Gyunei are both impertinent. They are annoying but they can be used as “hands” in his work. Essentially Quess is very talented, she is the worst as a person, but an extremely competent animator. Gyunei doesn’t have any real talent but he was “cyber enhanced” by learning the ropes as an assistant episode director and has begun to think “maybe I’m actually talented?”
Gyunei lets things get to his head and begins plotting a plan to drag Char Aznable=Tomino Yoshiyuki down from his position as series director. He is very attracted to the talented Quess. The number one requirement to overthrowing Char Aznable is to have Quess on his side. What he needs to do to achieve that is to prove to Quess that he is indeed a talented director. And so I begin to destroy the surrounding mobile suits.
However, Char Aznable, or series director Tomino, has noticed this movement long ago. But, Ikuhara crushing the other mobile suits to overtake Tomino is actually useful to Tomino. So he has a neat plan to use both Gyunei and Quess to his own ends.
The dumb Gyunei Ikuhara doesn’t realize this and just when he’s thinking, “I’m about to reach Tomino Char..!” a missile comes flying from the side and turns him into dust (laughs).
What a perfect diorama of the industry.
Anno: There is an obsession with young people popping up in the industry.
Ikuni: I sense that with Mr. Miyazaki too. With both Miyazaki and Tomino, when it comes to talented animators, they both highly appreciate their skills as “hands” regardless of their personality as a human. However, towards young directors they are very harsh and will talk shit about them. I think that’s their fear towards young talent speaking.
Anno: I bet it’s terrifying. What’s most threatening to a dictatorship is a person with talent. What they want the most is a docile person.
Ikuni: Yes yes yes. Animators, putting personality aside, will praise “hands.” Even Tomino and Miyazaki.
Dialogue and Drama
Ikuni: The dialogue is always good. I like how the dialogue is independent of the plot.
There’s a scene where Amuro is placing bombs in Axis or something and suddenly Char’s MS approaches and says, “I won’t let you!” Amuro, while dodging Char’s beam saber, mumbles “What a miserable guy” to which Char responds “Me?” There’s something very pleasant about this exchange of dialogue.
At the end of the exchange, Char says “Power down huh” when he runs out of bullets. I remember laughing out loud with my friend when we heard that line. So Mr. Tomino powers down like this after intense arguments...I felt like I got a glimpse of Mr. Tomino in everyday life. It was funny imagining Mr. Tomino getting exhausted after endless, frustrating retakes and powering down.
Anno: Because it’s hard to maintain high energy. The moment you lose focus, it’s gone in a flash.
Ikuni: Also, around when Char and Amuro are arguing inside Axis, there’s a line, “How can someone who is letting their talents be exploited by the fools speak such lines!” This line hits differently when I realized Tomino directed it toward himself.
Anno: Generally when you are trying to convey complicated ideas to other people, the most efficient way is “Q&A” dialogue, basically back-and-forth exchanges like this one. You split yourself into A and B and debate between those two. In order to communicate his beliefs, Tomino created argument scenes like this one.
Ikuni: If you’re just watching for the plot, when Char says, “I won’t let you!” and gets off his mobile suit, you think “the Gundam is unmanned right now, he should just destroy it” but that’s not what happens.
Anno: Yeah if he had just shot at it right then, the story would’ve ended there.
Ikuni: It’s clear that things don’t just happen for plot’s sake. That’s what makes [CCA] feel so good to watch.
On the other hand, in something like 0083 (Stardust Memory), drama happens for drama’s sake. In 0083, they would’ve undoubtedly made the shot and the story would’ve ended there. That’s boring as hell, is what I would’ve thought if I saw that.
Anno: The straightforwardness of [0083] is boring. The characters and drama were both too bland.
Ikuni: Especially if you’re creating an animation that deals with mobile suits like in Gundam, it starts becoming Hollywood-esque? The further you go down that path, you just end up with something that can’t win against a live action. That’s why I want to avoid making work that’s too drama driven. I feel like everyone’s answer to “it’s not anime if it’s not entertaining” ends up being “then let’s make something Hollywood-esque.”
If you chase after only “the drama and intensity of an action film,” you will never be able to win against a Hollywood film. So I think that’s a pointless method.
Anno: However, the issue is that the majority of audiences have already been poisoned by Hollywood films. It’s boring but the more you aim for good reception, the less freedom you have.
Death and Rebirth
Anno: If you were wondering why I, as someone with a relatively high position within the anime industry, is putting time and labor into making a commoner’s doujinshi is because at the end of the day I am “an anime fan.” I just really love anime.
Oguro: How splendid! I don’t know any other anime fan as respectable as you.
Ikuni: I too, don’t dislike animation. Of course, I make them because I love them but recently it’s become painful to watch them.
Anno: Of course. That’s why I am focusing on Char’s Counterattack.
Ikuni: Even with CCA...at this point animation... is this because I’m an anime otaku..
Anno: This overlaps a bit with Mr.Yamaga’s opinion (another person he interviewed within the fan book), but the reason why I turned the spotlight onto CCA is because this (the doujin) is actually a funeral for animation.
Ikuni: Funeral? You’re saying we should say farewell once?
Anno: No one was holding a funeral for anime so this doujinshi is me declaring “I will hold the funeral!”
Since [CCA], no one has managed to reset. No one has come back to life. Even V Gundam isn’t a rebirth. Everyone ended at [CCA] and is slowly floating around as ash. Above dead bodies, flying as ashes. No one realizes this, or they do and choose to close their eyes to this fact…
Ikuni: The keyword there is anime. Anime as anime is currently trending, for example Sailor Moon that I’m working on right now. But anime is also dead. Therefore, “ashes” is an interesting choice of words. Even though we hear stories about 1000 people gathering in Osaka or 600 people in Shibuya, animation is still dead.
Anno: To use that keyword: “Anime has been dead” It’s already an old phrase tho (laughs). All that’s left is for someone to gather the ashes and sprinkle it over a dead tree.
Ikuni: But yeah, there was no choice but to die once. That’s why we have to start again from scratch. Take me for example, I’m making a large mistake by getting happy over something as superficial as 1000 people gathering in Osaka or 600 people in Shibuya (for a Sailor Moon event) or the fact that a lot of children attended etc. Because I’ve seen the peak of the anime boom - Gundam boom if you will - I get happy to see these sights. But the truth is that none of that actually exists and it’s all just ashes.
Anno: Exactly, it’s all an illusion
Ikuni: That’s why if we’re gonna do it, we have to start from one.
Anno: Not one, from zero. Rebirth from death.
Ikuni: So Mr. Tomino died once after CCA?
Anno: Well Kurosawa Akira also died once before Dodes'ka-den(1970)
Ikuni: But I can’t shake the feeling that he couldn’t manage to actually die. What’s difficult about being human is that-- in CCA, it looks as though Char Aznable died once. It appears that way because he wanted to be killed so badly but humans have to keep living, even Mr. Tomino has to keep living to 60, 70. That’s the cruel reality. In order to keep living, one cannot continue to do the same things over and over. So we have to continue evolving. Mr. Miyazaki often grumbles, the days of The Castle of Cagliostro were good, or the days of Future Boy Conan were good but the reality is that he still has to make Porco Rosso. The fate of the creator is that one cannot survive without evolving. Mr. Tomino understands this.
“They tell me I can’t evolve so I died once through CCA” is what I thought Tomino’s intentions were. I can’t say this too loudly but watching V Gundam that’s currently airing, I feel like he couldn’t actually die in the end.
Anno: Well people can’t change that easily.
Ikuni: He probably thinks he’s starting on a fresh page.
Anno: Probably. But things start to ooze out.
Ikuni: As I thought, he didn’t die. Is Victory Gundam enjoyable? I have a hard time figuring that out. Maybe the only ones having fun are us. I wonder if actual children are enjoying it.
Anno: With heavy stories like that, children can’t keep up and they end up abandoning it.
Ikuni: If that is the case, then Mr. Tomino isn’t starting from one. He couldn’t toss it away. When I saw the setting of that show, I thought, oh Tomino is trying to start over from the beginning, he even invited Hideki Sonoda as a writer. Despite that, it’s not a reset, he couldn’t toss everything away.
Anno: He probably couldn’t. Mr. Tomino can’t throw Lalah away, you know. It’s easy to say I’ll throw everything away but it’s hard to put into action. Especially since men are creatures of lingering affection. It’s extremely difficult to throw away things you saw as a child. Even if you’re told you have to. You have to throw away everything attached to your body and become stark naked in order to move forward.
Yasuhiko Yoshikazu, Tomonori Kogawa, and Kitazume Hiroyuki
Ikuni: By the way Mr. Anno, you watch a lot of videos don’t you? Maybe not?
Anno: Nah, not really. I watch a lot of trivial things though.
Ikuni: Triple Fighter.
Anno: LOL I didn’t end up buying that. But the other day I bought Gowappa 5 Godam. I was skimming through the laser disc when it suddenly caught my eye so I stopped it. Checked--Staging by Mr. Tomino. It’s almost like a ‘scent’? The atmosphere within the screen was the same as Gundam.
Ikuni: Back during the original Gundam TV series, like episode 2, Mr. Tomino was even concerned over the art.
Anno: I think that’s because Mr. Yasuhiko was there.
Ikuni: That’s part of it but, how do I explain. It felt like he was trying to depict depth within the screen aside from just the plot. Tomino nowadays seems like he’s not concerned with that anymore and switched over to just focusing on art for the sake of the plot. I don’t know when the switch happened but.
Anno: Probably around Zeta? He probably learned what a Tomino without Yasuhiko looks like during Zeta.
I gotta say the art during the original Gundam was so good, Mr. Yasuhiko’s. Well, that series would’ve been good even if the art was shit but still.
That aspect [the art component?] was probably easier on Tomino back then. He could just leave it up to [Yasuhiko]. At the very least, better art than whatever he was imagining would turn up.
Ikuni: I believe Mr. Yasuhiko and Mr. Tomino are absolutely incompatible. The reason is this: Mr. Yasuhiko’s works are always the peak embodiment of the Oedipus complex. The main character always ends up with the childhood friend who stayed beside him, as you can see in Arion and Venus Wars. If you think about it, it’s a very gross story.
Therefore, Mr. Yasuhiko probably had a hard time comprehending why Frau Bow and Amuro don’t end up together in Gundam. However, in Tomino’s way of thought, there always comes a time of separation between childhood friends; it’s the way of the man to toss them aside once you’re done utilizing them. Yasuhiko can’t understand this, he thinks “but don’t you feel bad for the girl?” That’s the difference between the two of them.
That’s why in Zeta Gundam, I don’t know if there were any depictions of this but, Amuro is a bit attracted to Sayla Mass, a mature woman who is beyond saving.
Yasuhiko probably couldn’t understand those feelings at all. As a man, it’s clear as day why you’d be attracted to a woman who is like human trash (laughs).
Anno: Ms. Sayla is great.
Ikuni: She is pretty great. She’s hopeless as a person.
Anno: A terrible woman, but I still like Sayla
Ikuni: She is a ridiculous woman yet, men are drawn to her. It’s not fun at all to have Frau Bow by your side.
Anno: -changes topic- I think the appeal of the first Gundam was Yasuhiko-san’s art that seemed to completely deny Tomino’s worldview.
Ikuni: In the beginning, I think Yasuhiko and Tomino were still connecting to some level. Tomino still wasn’t thinking about what he wanted to express through Gundam on an ideological level. In that sense, it was plot-driven. He was thinking about Gundam as a drama but not as a concept.
Probably, the moment he got the reaffirmation that “I’m allowed to make drama built entirely out of ideological depictions” was during Ideon. Through Ideon, he gained the confidence that abstract concepts can form an entire story by themselves.
Anno: Probably the moment I noticed was during Ideon as well. It started running off on it’s own from the middle. But Tomonori Kogawa’s art was too well-matched for Ideon that it was boring.
Ikuni: Oh is that so? I’m quite fond of Kogawa’s art. But now that you mention it. It’s too easy to understand. Both the facial expressions and the depictions of violence are just as it is. It’s easy to understand. For example, there is imagery of children’s heads being blown off and it has the obviously graphic touch that you would see in Nagai Go’s old work like Violence Jack. The message, “We are going to take it this far” comes across too clearly.
Anno: Exactly. I can’t sense the resistance to that notion at all from the screen. When Mr. Yasuhiko does it, his feelings, “I don’t want to do something like this” seeps through and that adds a good flavor to the film.
Ikuni: What I like about Kitazume-san’s art in CCA is that he’s in the middle. What I’m saying is that I like how we (the audience) have to use our brains to understand. If it’s too obvious, all you can do is say “okay” and move on.
Because Kitazume’s art is in-between Kogawa and Yasuhiko’s, Tomino’s overt intentions don’t come across unless you think deeply about it. Meaning we have space to play. It’s fun having the space to analyze things.
Anno: It sounds good if you phrase [Kitazume’s art] as being innocuous but basically you mean that it’s incomplete and full of gaps? (laughs) But being in the middle equals having the potential to swing towards either end so in that way, there are merits to having elements from both.
Ikuni: At first I was confused, take Quess’ hair accessories for example, “What’s up with her being so flashy, someone like her is going to pilot a robot and go to war?” Taking a step back though, Quess fits the character description for a girl who would show up in a show like Moldiver perfectly (laughs). That’s a nice touch.
Anno: I prefer Chan.
Ikuni: Chan is good. However, I dislike Chan because she’s too perfect. Her goodness almost had a Yasuhiko-like quality to it. Of course, it’s Kitazume’s art, not Yasuhiko’s. If Yasuhiko drew any of the other characters, they would’ve turned out completely differently but with Chan, she would’ve been similar either way. In that sense, I think Chan embodies the character exactly as Tomino had originally envisioned.
Anno: I’m completely going against what I said earlier but when it comes to CCA, I think anyone who gets in the way of Tomino’s vision is the enemy (laughs). That’s why Chan is good. However, Amuro and Char are unfortunately out of the question.
Ikuni: Out of the question? I like them though?
Anno: No, I have a feeling that’s not the correct art.
Ikuni: Then, Yasuhiko’s?
Anno: Yes, matured through Yasuhiko’s art. I think they’re supposed to be more raw and human-like.
Ikuni: You see, even with Char’s Counterattack, I like the balance of imperfect work. The film itself is on the verge of falling, treading that very thin line. That’s what’s great about it. The incomplete mood about it. That frustration of the author’s intent not quite coming across clearly. Very good.
In that sense, the characters of F91 were perfect. Despite this, the balance within the screen wasn’t quite there. So that film is actually pretty gross. If it’s going to be that way then the characters of CCA are a million times better, is how I feel.
Anno: The best character from that film was Iron Mask.
Ikuni: Maybe Tomino-san actually wanted to hide his face. He wanted to hide his face out of the feelings of guilt, “As a father, I feel bad towards my daughter and wife.”
Also out of guilt towards the staff at Sunrise who worked through multiple all-nighters. But he is still going to be violent towards them, those feelings.
Anno: There are many reasons why one might wear a mask. One of them is feelings of embarrassment towards yourself. Since the culture of shame is integral to Japanese people. Feelings of shame hold a lot of weight.
Ikuni: Also Tomino-san... I have a bit of this too but...up until CCA, men who are dependent on women kept showing up. In F91 however, I’ve only watched it around two times, a person like Seabook appears. And [Iron Mask] gets defeated. What’s different from CCA is that, in F91, “the desire to be defeated by young talent” was hinted at. “I want to be defeated but afterwards I want to return even more powerful than before.”
Anno: Meaning he (Tomino) would even utilize being [defeated].
Ikuni: Yup yup yup.
Anno: What a dirty adult (laughs).
Ikuni: I understand how he feels tho (laughs).
Anno: I am single and haven’t had the chance to be a father so I’m not sure but, if I ever had an heir, I wonder if I would think “I want my son to pat my on the back telling me I did a good job” or “just kill me”?
Ikuni: Isn’t that why [Iron Mask] wanted Seabook to marry his own daughter and make him a son-in-law? To pat him on the back, say “It’s your generation now,” make him take on the Tomino family name, force him to continue producing Gundam; trap him into that kind of horrific formula so that Tomino could have an easier time making Gundam.
Anno: Essentially using young talent as a stepping stone.
Quess and Gyunei
Oguro: The punch line of CCA was that Char was looking for a mother, right? If it’s alright to call that the punch line. How do you feel about it? It is essentially the same one as the Sailor Moon R movie, if I may. CCA is the story of a Mamoru and Fiore who has lost Usagi.
Ikuni: Oh, that’s right. I was just reading the pamphlet yesterday and in it Tomino writes, “This is a story about men and women.” “Men are such lame creatures like this.” and “I tried writing my stark naked emotions as a man, would you love a man even if he’s like this?” That’s what this film is.
He simply wanted to write about lame men. In that sense, the film lands at the correct ending. If his goal truly was to simply depict “would you love a man this lame?”
But ah, in my opinion, I think women would just be grossed out.
Oguro: We need to ask women for their opinions on that, don’t we.
Ikuni: Hmm, just cause a woman watched that, where would we go from there.
Oguro: People who just want to make fun of the film would probably just go for Quess.
Ikuni: Do people who make fun of Quess exist?
Anno: Iku-chan, you like Quess don’t you.
Ikuni: I do like Quess. Well more like, I understand why someone would be attracted to her.
In actuality, I am usually attracted to women like Quess, regardless of whether or not it will go well.
Anno: So you like girls ‘like that’ huh.
Oguro: Meaning they’re full of energy?
Ikuni: I do look for energetic people, no mistake there. Whether or not we get along is a different matter entirely, however. In the end, a missile approaches suddenly from the side and BOOM (laughs)
Anno: A dumb death (laughs)
Ikuni: Exactly, it seems like I end up dying stupidly like that pretty often.
Tomino: I’ve realized this recently but no, I don’t like it. The reason why is because I can’t draw the art that I like. When I was a child I was serious about learning to do pen drawings but I just can’t do it. Once I went through the process of realizing I can’t draw, I realized something else. I don’t know what kind of art I liked. If you are unable to draw that unique thing, you can’t become an artist. To tell you the truth, I have a natural disgust towards drawings. It’s probably jealousy.
Especially these recent years, meaning as I became 70 years old, I suddenly thought, all the animators working at my current studio are so good at drawing. Their lines are so pretty and the characters are good. It’s good, but I felt something was wrong with that skillfulness. It’s because everyone was similar. Everyone has a base. Everyone. The modern times is all a copy. That’s what I’ve clearly begun to understand.
You are not a painter unless you can draw a unique image. When I started thinking that I want to work with said new talent, I thought about what to make the basis for judging “good art” and fell into my current hell of not knowing what kind of art I like. This is a rude thing to say but there’s people who are decently good at drawing and character design but somewhere in my heart I think, “was this truly what I was aiming for? Probably not.” However, if I start saying this out loud ─to put it in live action terms─ your actors start leaving. So I have to contain myself but I am unable to, which is why I am troubled.
--Do you have lingering attachment towards live action movies?
Tomino: Those feelings went completely away when I hit 70. One of the reasons is physical strength. When you direct a live action movie you need stamina. If I started at age 70, I will immediately die (laughs). But until I was 70, I still had a strong desire to do live action.
As I said before, live action work is physical labor. In Japan, you must become a technician before you are an artist. When I ask myself whether I could put up with being a craftsman, I’d say I definitely cannot. For example, directors from Kurosawa Akira’s era would “wait for the clouds” meaning that with a simple word from the director, “we won’t film until the cloud covers that mountain,” an entire crew would have to be fed pointless meals for a month. I thought I would be the type to do that (laughs).
That’s why when I see movies, I always think “good job filming.” I’d think, it's amazing you filmed in that environment or under those weather conditions or in this kind of year.
--Your brand is “the big robot anime” but how do you feel about the future of robot anime.
Tomino: Robots were simply one genre. There are different things to talk about. And when you ask whether robots are the best way to express these things, I think, no it's not.
With robots, people who like it should make what they want to and I don’t have any more interest in it so I’d say that I am not thinking about making simply robot anime.
I currently have two scenarios. Both of them are mecha-like. The reason why is because the filmmaker Tomino doesn’t have many pawns so essentially he became a human who can only make Gundam-like things. This is my “declaration of defeat.”
Even so, I think there are ways to not be confined to the boundaries of the mecha genre so I am writing a new script to explore the possibility of not having human shaped robots.
What I felt with my newest work (G-Reco Movies) is that a Tomino wearing the Gundam structure will not bring anything new to the table. The reason is because it is not possible for humans to have different sets of skills and taste.
Even if I want to start a new project, I can’t write romance or tragedy. It’s not that I don’t want to, I simply am not able to. There is no way to expand one’s colors─is what I’ve learned.
For those who make any kind of video work, their talent is important, but aptitude cannot be ignored. Don’t think that you can do it just because you like something a little, is what I’ve come to understand.
Oshii: I watched 0079, Zeta and Z. The stuff after that, I watched occasionally -there's G Gundam and Wing etc- but I'm not interested in the mechs called Gundam themselves.
However, I went to see CCA in theaters. I never watch anime in theaters nowadays and it was rare for me back then as well. Even so, I went to see CCA.
--Was there a reason?
Oshii: Probably because I heard Kazunori Itō talking about it. He tore the movie apart. He hated that scene towards the beginning where they commit terrorist attacks yelling "heaven's punishment!" "hurray for Neo Zeon!" It wasn't to his taste. I wonder why he went to see it in the first place? Maybe because he thought it would be good inspiration for the script of Patlabor he was working on at the time. Anyway, I got so curious because he was shitting on it so hard. I was surprised once I watched it.
“Mr. Tomino finally made a movie from his heart!” was my first thought. I believe CCA is Tomino's magnum opus. He made F91 afterwards but CCA is the most Tomino-like, it voices his truest thoughts.
I liked Char's quote, "I will correct humanity" quite a lot because I realized the extent to which Tomino was disappointed in humanity.
Mr. Anno made a CCA doujinshi so he asked me if he could interview me. To which I said "If it is about CCA, you can call me up at any hour." and so I praised it lots
--It's now a legendary doujinshi.
Oshii: Since I was praising CCA, Anno was confused (lol). Even though he's the one who asked for the interview he was like, "Why are you praising it so much?! Are you up to something?" No, I simply like CCA that much.
Well, more like, I related to Tomino's words. I had sensed it before but he's not the type to go love this, love that. He wants to preach despair. If any other director had used the phrase "I'll correct humanity," I would've said "who gave you the right! Don't be so full of yourself" but when Tomino does it, it seems to come so naturally. It’s a phrase that Tomino is allowed to use because he's worked on robot anime his entire life. There is so much dialogue in Tomino anime. Everyone says "There's too much talking in Oshii anime" but why doesn't anyone complain when Tomino does it.
--You're salty about it
Oshii: I'm not salty, I'm relating to him. I love Mr. Tomino. Actually, Miya-san (Miyazaki) loves him too. They were often talking on the phone. Miya-san and Mr. Tomino actually get along quite well.
--What?!
Oshii: Isn't it interesting? Miya-san hates Mushi-Pro so he hates Dezaki Osamu and Ashita no Joe. But he loved Tomino with Mushi-Pro roots. Miya-san likes people who've suffered and he knows Tomino had a hard time at Mushi-Pro so that's part of it. Both Miya-san and I love Tomino but Tomino himself tends to be self-depreciative. He always says things like "I am just someone who couldn't become a novelist; In the end, all I'm doing is making ads for toy shops." He continues to hold these negative perceptions towards anime. When I joined the industry, those feelings were still there but I hated it. "Why do we have to hold these complexes? We should be able to have confidence in our work" is how I feel. So I love him but if you ask me whether I want to meet with Tomino I'd be a bit hesitant.
We've gotten in a fight before. We met when Mr. Tomino came to see my older sister performing a play at the Robot Museum in Ueno (2007). We were practically screaming at each other "SHUT UP!"
So I thought I'd never see him again but later Tomino came up to me and hugged me, "Oshii chan~~~ Sorry for before" in a cat-like voice. I had no choice but to say "Okay okay, get off me." and make up with him.
--What a nice story.
Oshii: No, it's not anything cute. Anyways, Tomino is that kind of person who had to hide his true feelings while making anime. But in CCA, he revealed his truth. In the most open place, he showed his truth. Not in the corner, on the big screen. That's something I aim to do in my work as well. That's why I related and was touched by Tomino in CCA. I think the setting of the "Universal Century" finally came to life in CCA. Up until that point it was basically just WWII. Zeon is Germany no matter how you look at it. All the designs and everything. How they lose no matter how excellent the individual soldiers are. The way they have mountains of prototypes and lost cause they made too many types. The way Amuro's uniform is so bland is just like the Allies. I thought he had just changed the names since you can't have the Nazis outright like that but no, Tomino had bigger plans. The climax where mobile suits were pushing the asteroid away from earth can only be done in the Universal Century and finally let go of the curse of WWII. The way how the mass produced suits blow up. Some people say that scene isn't realistic but its mesmerizing from a military standpoint. "Wow that person (Amuro) is amazing." He makes Amuro say "Some suits are blowing up" and then show the suits blowing up. The usually logical Tomino went really hard for that scene.
CCA is a movie that modern people will find value in. There are people who think "the world is going to disappear" or "let the world disappear." But Tomino didn't make that movie out of just malevolence. "I'll correct humanity" comes from a place of despair. It's different from suddenly swinging around a knife. People who feel obstructed or despairing in modern society might feel saved watching this film. At the same time, there is also catharsis as a movie, so I would like to recommend it in various ways and it's one of my favorites
Tomino: The theme song "G" was a perfect fit for both the movie and the poster of G-reco. However, no one around me understands and I feel like dying. They want to present G-reco as a chic "real robot anime" and I had to spend the entire month telling them, no that's not G-reco.
Tomino: The other day, Mr. Nakamura told me about this artist. I hadn't heard of him until then but since I went around and listened to a bunch of his music. Yonezu Kenshi's songs.
Nakamura: That's right, I suggested Yonezu cause Tomino wanted a youngster but it didn't match up with the schedule so we just went with Dreams Come True
Tomino: That's how you're gonna word it?!?!
Tomino: I couldn't understand Yonezu's popularity until yesterday. The key was Billie Eilish. Listening to Billie's sleep inducing music I realized that once society reaches its peak, it starts regressing. Trump being elected in America is the biggest showing of that.
To go back further, jazz evolved into big band, bebop and hard bop and was reaching newer heights but suddenly the rock genre took over. That was a regression. That's why when the Beatles showed up I couldn't comprehend their popularity and didn't listen to them for 10 years.
After 10 years, I went back and listened to almost their entire library and kinda of get it now, but I still don't want to accept them (The Beatles). Going back to Yonezu, I'm glad I didn't make the offer cause I would've just been swept along by the regression trend.
Nakamura: Tomino said something amazing again. You just made the entire world your enemy.
Tomino: Yonezu-san and Billie-san are both just current trends. I'm looking at history. I'm making G-reco thinking about 3000 years into the future
I decided to look at the lyrics to try to understand why Billie Eilish songs are so popular among her fans. Things about "adults exhaust us, mom and dad won't let us see the future."
These lyrics show that American society is overcrowded but modern teenagers don't have the words to describe the feelings of anxiety and fear towards these things.
When I think about this reality I think it's wrong to just be complacent and bring back the real robot genre from 20 years ago.
The other day, when I went to Shibuya with my grandchild, they suddenly stopped and said "grandpa, I wanna go home." When I asked what's wrong, they just said "the Earth is going to be crushed if there's this many people." I realized that even young kids could feel this pressure.
I believe that letting people onto overcrowded trains is a crime. People aren't that close to each other even in sex scenes. The more I made G-Reco the more I realized this reality.
In order for humans to live, we need enough space to spread both of our arms without bumping into somebody. If those hands bump into each other, and neither side apologizes, then we have a war. We need words to think about things "more normally." That is the real theme of G-Reco.
--What was the reason behind Mr. Tomino giving this movie such high praise when it was released?
Tomino: Anyone who has experienced child-raising understands that children are an uncontrollable “wolf-like” existence to parents. I saw some opinions that marrying a “wolf” is disgusting but there are times when a boyfriend/girlfriend who seemed beautiful during the romantic stage suddenly changes into an existence even harder to understand than a wolf. In this way, [Hosoda] took a very normal story that everyone experiences and skillfully used an animation metaphor to keep the film within a very easy to watch time frame. It's frustrating to admit but Director Hosoda has become very capable.
Hosoda: I was very encouraged by your earlier comments so I’m sincerely grateful to you.
Tomino: In preparation for this interview, I read many reviews of the film and was reassured by what I saw. Mothers who are currently raising children would write, “this film is a very accurate portrayal of a mother.” I thought, finally animation has produced a “film” that could appeal to a wide audience. There’s something revolutionary in a different way from Miyazaki films. For example, among the reviews, there were some wondering whether the director was conscious of Waldorf Education while making the film.
Hosoda: To get straight to the point, no, I was not aware. The main mother character, being placed in the special situation where she could not rely on general medical institutions to raise “the wolf children”, had no choice but to prepare for children's illness with books, ranging from the classics like "Childcare Code", "Encyclopedia of Childcare" and "Pediatric Medicine", to books on natural remedies. It was simply a matter of Waldorf Education being among those books but what’s interesting is the audience noticing this book cover in the corner of the screen and debating the theories written in those books on their blogs. I think it represents how urgent of an issue child-rearing is for parents.
Tomino: I will not affirm or deny that particular theory of education, but I was surprised that mothers, who have a deep knowledge of children's literature and education, made statements that captured the work to this pedigree. As I thought, this work is seen by a fairly wide range of people. However, when I heard the opinions of the anime industry, I got the sense that they were discussing within the narrow confines of genres. In the first place, I don't really understand the tendency to organize media by identifying people into markets or generations and I think this tendency is making recent works lacking.
Hosoda: I too, think that this newest work has come to a place outside of the usual anime context. Up until Summer Wars I wanted to find out how far I could take world building and see what’s beyond that, while staying within the genre film. On the other hand, there are "movie fans" who have a wide field of view and on the other, there are also many people who like genres films like action, horror, romance, etc. From those people I received criticism which prioritized the laws of genre films, for example, "If you write a werewolf character, that character has to be persecuted and shot by the police and die.”
Tomino: That’s exactly what someone caught up in genres would say. Anime has a narratology centered around action, but I felt Wolf Children went outside of that. The very fact that unfamiliar terms such as “Waldorf Education” came up is proof that there are people who believe this movie goes beyond the confines of anime. In other words, it was conveyed that Hana, the mother character, is not as anime-like and pretty/delicate as the picture, but a woman who carried out strong child-rearing with considerable knowledge and insight. When I saw those reviews that touched upon the very core themes of the plot, I thought that anime was finally established as a medium.
Hosoda: Exactly. This time, I was very happy to see women, especially those in the middle of child raising, discuss this film from the viewpoint of a fellow mother. There was sound debate, including criticism. It's proof that the motif of this film is universal. After all, in both movies and anime, world building and expressions have wider potential than genres.
Tomino: That's exactly right. In my case, I’m very greedy, so if I am to express something to the world, I want it to become popular. I'm not interested in producing something that is only accessible to a narrow group of people who like certain genres. If you start making pandering work for niches, you will become a niche yourself and you will set up a flag to be discriminated against and beaten by society. If you are given the opportunity to express yourself in a public place and show your will, it’s better to be liked by everyone. Of course, being accepted is the premise that business is built upon as well. So, people tend to go in the direction of "it is easier to sell if you specialize by genre", but a work created upon that idea will last for at most two to three years. If I am spending a lot of money to make it, I want to do big business, show a concept that will last 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, and make it sell for a long time. There are quite a lot of works that are forgotten after the momentary box office profit. In that sense, Wolf Children definitely showed a new frontier of "things to express to the public" and I believe that the evaluation and recognition in the next 10 or 20 years will be much higher than it is now.
--What kind of expectations does Director Tomino have for Director Hosoda for the future?
Tomino: I don't have any particular expectations, but more what I would like people to pay attention to is the fact that not everything was made by Mr. Hosoda. The existence of scenario writer, Ms. (Satoko) Okudera is huge and it must’ve only been possible because they were in a realistic space where they could observe children. To the point where you might not have been able to make it if the timing was off by about a year or two. This is a realistic work. So while I think, wow you did really well, unfortunately I also think you’ll never have another chance like this. The moment you are told, "that was a hit, let's do it again!", you may fall with a boom so watch out for that. *tl note cough cough* mirai no mirai *cough*
Hosoda: I may have obtained credibility from the box office hit but I believe every movie comes down to the original project proposal. In the future as well, it will depend on the spirit of challenge and fun imbued in each and every proposal. Instead of thinking, “This particular one was a hit so the next one has to go even higher,” I would like to seek a unique enjoyment of movies to share with audiences for each project. So even if I am asked to make another installment of this movie…
Tomino: I mean you can’t, can you?
Hosoda: Yeah, it is a complete work as it is. I will move on to the next new work. At that time, I have to forget all the previous works and start from scratch thinking about what is interesting in this world.
--How do you feel about Mr. Tomino’s previous statement about making work for the public?
Hosoda: In the case of Wolf Children, the starting point of my idea was from a very familiar place. At the time, my wife and I were having a hard time making children. Therefore, the desire to raise a child and become a parent is directly reflected in the movie. At the same time, I thought that the motif of "raising children" is universal not only to us Japanese but to all over the world. Anyone in any country experiences it. Even if you have no children, you experience being raised by your parents. It's a story common to all humankind, so I thought this was a project that had the potential to be viewed by everyone. That's why I said something like the "child-rearing" film genre, but I realized that there is no such movie (laughs). In the first place, it is difficult to film a live-action movie of a situation like "growing up slowly", and I can't find a movie about a child where the parent is the main character. It’s always the conflict filled story of “overcoming parents in order for their children to grow up." I planned it as a "story from an observational perspective" about how parents watch the growth of their children, but I was really in trouble because there was nothing to refer to. Originally, movies originated from counterculture, so I think that is also related.
Tomino: I was surprised to hear that, but it again reaffirmed the superstition that we could express freely, it’s actually not free at all. The fact that Wolf Children is taken for granted even though it’s doing such special things is amazing. Because at the end of the day it's a cliché story, isn't it? But due to the fact that it is universal …….
Hosoda: Yes, it's a very cliche story you can find anywhere.
Tomino: But the moment it was illustrated through animation techniques, it looks revolutionary. This is actually an embarrassing story because something too obvious should not look innovative. It's a tremendous work because even that aspect can be learned from it.
Hosoda: No no, as a creator, I just started from a very straightforward ideal and aspiration, thinking, "I want to do something like this, something like that, when I have a child," in line with the feelings of my wife and I. When I interviewed fathers and mothers who are raising children as references, they talked about hardships like "I can't sleep at night, I'll run out of personal time", but it all sounded enviable to me. “The fact that you are carrying all of that on your back is amazing!” is how I felt.
Tomino: I see....I couldn't have imagined cutting in from that angle. Even though your own children aren’t that old yet, each one of the scenes are neatly arranged by age. While I was watching the film, I couldn’t understand how you could possibly depict the children’s growth so accurately but listening to your story just now, I think I understand half of it. Were you yearning to be a parent to that extent?
Hosoda: Yes, I was aspiring for it. If I didn’t hold ideals toward the idea, I don’t think this movie could’ve been made. If I had actually experienced a sleepless night with a newborn child, I don’t think I would’ve been able to make a film out of it. Because I had a longing for it, that became the power behind the realism. Even though there are some weaknesses to it not being a lived experience, I felt this was the only time I could make this film. Rather than my personal feelings when I first wrote the plot, I am amazed and grateful towards the secretary company and distribution company that took on such a challenging story.
Tomino: It’s exactly as you say. After all, in the anime industry, we, the creators, are contaminated with the preconceived notion of anime. The staff who had the sensitivity to identify such potential in this film only with that title and proposal is certainly amazing.
--Which scene was the most memorable for Director Tomino?
Tomino: It's rare for me, but I smiled at the last cut. Even though it was a cut with a loose composition without any ingenuity, I giggled, mimicking Hana. It’s because I thought, “Parents are just like that, aren’t they.” As the conclusion of a movie, this was really amazing because usually one would want to include something message-like here. If it were me, I’d be too scared to keep her just seated at the table and would make her look towards the mountains and say “Are you doing well?” There aren’t many movies that end so neatly like that. After all, it is a film that raises the story of the movie and the overall representation theory in a fairly dramatic way. However, looking at director Hosoda's career, you've improved your skills for the pursuit of the genre of anime, and you also love anime as an audience member, right? When trying to pursue such a versatile story with a natural theme, Mr. Hosoda's strength of "animation lover" may turn into a weakness and become a double-edged sword.
Hosoda: It's exactly as you pointed out. But I don't think it's possible to stop liking anime anymore.
Tomino: Of course you can't. Therefore, there is no choice but to plan movies in a straightforward, rule abiding way. In my case, I had the same kind of trouble with Gundam, so I know it's harsh. That’s the extent to which Mr. Hosoda hit the nail on the head and got out of the environment where just making work for the sake of doing the job would pass.
Hosoda: However, while there are hundreds of thousands of movies in the history of movies, from many different people from many different cultures, I still think there is something out there that hasn’t been depicted yet. That is my "hope" that I have to keep making for my son who was born.
Tomino: That's the right line of sight. If you have that perspective, I think you can still make many works in the future. Those are probably words that can only be spoken by someone who felt “maybe what I’m creating is not anime?” since The Girl Who Lept Through Time. Because I personally have never come up with the logic that "there may be something that hasn’t become a movie yet."
Hosoda: What? That has to be a lie. Director Tomino was the one to provide that concept. We have been encouraged by that for over 30 years.
Tomino: No, I have the confidence to say that I don't have that kind of creativity or writing abilities.
Hosoda: There’s no way that’s possible. If so, why did we enjoy the thrill of going “I would've never thought up of this!” every time Director Tomino’s new work came out?
Tomino: That's because, in my case, I'm only thinking about the responsibility of "expressing to the public." Regardless of the fact that there were restrictions due to having sponsors involved with big robots, I have come so far only thinking about the narrow exit of, “if other people make it like this, I will do it this way.”
Hosoda: However, as far as I can see, it seems that Mr. Tomino's work pushes itself beyond and is located far above that, while being aware of the public consciousness.
Tomino: Yes, to that, I can be very clear. Because I don't trust the modern public. How can we raise the public to highbrow and make them Newypes? I desire to continue thinking about these feelings towards the future through the theory of communication. Am I overreaching? That's why I'm taught that "a writer must have a perspective like Mr. Hosoda." I couldn't become a fiction writer because I didn't have that sense. Even looking at the relationship between Hana, Yuki and Ame, I realized that "Drama is something that must be assembled like this."
Hosoda: To me this is an unbelievable story. That relationship between Hana, Yuki and Ame could easily be replaced with the path taken by Commander Doba and Haruru and Karara of Space Runaway Ideon. However I couldn’t write the fierce drama of that parent and child as is…
Tomino: If you say Wolf Children feels lacking because it’s simply about child-rearing without the fierce drama, then you are wrong. Things that everyone already knows. Things that everyone actually has hidden deep inside of them, to be able to just say those things straight out and lay it bare in public. Things like the sensual sense of distance in human relationships, you depict so naturally. I personally can't do that, so I forced it through with an easy-to-understand structure and logic. Passionate feelings required for a drama originally requires a sense of distance, and it should be drawn within that. Whether the distance when a hand stretches out and touches another person is true or good, false or true… that sense of distance is a wonderful way to show the goal of the story naturally. Director Hosoda is allowed to have confidence in his ability to direct those kinds of scenes.
Hosoda: I believe that great directing is not in the skills but luck. There was an intangible something that fit the content and tone of the movie. It was good that I was able to stick it out until the moment when I thought "this is good!" for each cut. Those kinds of moments are luck, and the director is the type of person who has to wait for those moments to happen. I think the directors are blessed with their each individual type of luck.
Tomino: I think that as well and also think that, ideally, a play cannot be made unless you are prepared to make it after understanding the whole world.
Hosoda: That being said, while I think the motif I chose this time is good, I also realized that my ability as a director was not caught up with it, but I still had to go through the pain of making it anyway. I don't really understand the whole world, and I don't have enough expressiveness…
Tomino: if that is the case, then I think you’re okay. What’s important is the awareness that “my abilities may not be enough.” There are certain things that can only be built upon that awareness and even if it's making scenes, it’s not something that can be done by one person. Overcoming obstacles with brute force, saying, "There is no choice but to do it like this," sometimes becomes a form of expression that exceeds one’s own ability. The better the movie, the more I think that the camera is set up with the humility that “I can't do it all by myself,” and you can see the power of the group that one doesn’t see in individual work.
Hosoda: For sure, and that’s important in animation as well.
Tomino: Even with desk work like anime, not everything can be controlled by oneself. With such humility in mind, please continue to create soft Hosoda works that everyone can enjoy.
Hosoda: I’m very honored to receive these words. I will continue to use them as encouragement.
