From this post forward the following tags will be used as followed:
#reblog response - is for all the reblogs I am responding with, this is for chains and long conversations becuase yapping makes the fandom go round
I'll use just #reblog for all types of reblogging, even the ones I am just yapping in the tags for and any rebloging will have the names of everyone involved so if I want to reference another reblog chain I had with someone I can quickly find them :3
#rootpost - is for the original posts without the chains and branching conversations, everything from asks, to art is here. If it's the first time showing up on my blog here's where it starts and then from there you can just go into the reblogs to see where the conversation goes[I still need to find a blog skin that let's you do that the same way you can take a peak on your dash. I am new to the blog customization gig]
#character meta - This tag is for character discussion, what makes them tick and all that. Things like character motives and morality fall under here
#meta post - Meanwhile this tag is for not just characters but instead world building and and other watsonian explanations for writing choices made becuase of writers not exactly thinking about the implications of what they just did. Things like how different mystical magic ssytems and dimensional travel works would fall under here.
#character fic - These are for my little dabbles into creative writing. Small little posts that less about discussion and more actual fanfiction writing. Things like links to ao3 will not be here, this is for stories told through posts only.
#ask response - are for all the post dealing with me responding to an ask
All my art can be found under the catch all tag #my art however the digital art is only under #DigitalShells and the irl art I make is under #PenInkShell
Character and Series tags:
The tags for the #Tmnt 2003 turtles are #Leonardo Splinterson, #Donatello Splinterson, #Raphael Splinterson, #Michelangelo Splinterson, and their sensei is tagged as #Hamato Splinter, all of which we hear them being called. Meaning yes Splinter uses Japanese name presentation while his sons use American[obviously this style of name presentation goes farther than that, but they are Japanese American culturally so I'm using those terms] because the Tribunal most likely was trying to give disrespect with that but they underestimated how much these boys are willing to spitefully embrace things. I'd also like to give a shout out to this version's Casey for having a long full name allowing me to continue this tagging system with him by using #Arnold Casey Jones Jr
To contrast this the #Tmnt 2012 crew get the full Hamato Clan treatment as they were raised like such from day one. So their tags are going to be reflective of that with #Hamato Leonardo, #Hamato Donatello, #Hamato Raphael, and #Hamato Michelangelo. For Splinter in order to seperate him from his 03 counterpart's tags will be using #Hamato Splinter Yoshi while his 03 counterpart will be #Hamato Splinter.
As 2012 April and the Casey's who do not have other names(Arnold and Cassandra for example)they will have their name next to their series as their tag. For example April's tag would be #2012 April O'Neil
Then with #Rottmnt becuase Rise Splinter seems to bounce between going a bit too into his upbringing to trying to distance him as far away as possible from it I thought it would be a fun nod to give them all Americanized tags. So their tags are #Raphael Hamato, #Leonardo Hamato, #Michelangelo Hamato, #Donatello Hamato, and #Splinter Hamato. With of course as I said their Casey being #Cassandra Jones and #Casey Jones Jr depending on which one you're talking about. [Why is Donnie the last one in the theme song to be named, I was doing these names based on that and now it looks weird for breaking pattern lol]
Now for you might be asking what about #Tmnt 07 and #Tmnt 1987?
Well you see; I have no idea how to give them special tags, so for now I am just putting up their year followed by their given name.
So for example I'd tag #1987 Raphael or #2007 Leonardo for those characters. It's not a perfect system but it'll keep things sort of tidy
I might be wrong but I think the 2003 and the Mutant Mayhem boys all have ribs behind their plastrons too! When 03 Mikey gets x-rayed by the Super Turtles we can see a picture with a ribcage, and a big part of TotTMNT S1 is Raph fracturing/breaking a rib. What I wanna know is if this implies these turtles have TWO sets of ribcages, one in front human-style and one making up the shell. Mutant anatomy 🤷♀️
Okay so ribcages by themselves does not imply the plastron don't have bone in them, thus Raph's rib cracking could just imply they have double bone layered, as you said! :D
They also could just have no floating ribs as well; rather than two sets of ribcages it's just a more solid single one. So rather than one sternum for each cage, they just have two sternums with ribs bridge between. One sternum on their carapace for their natural turtle-self and another on their ribs likely from the mutation that made them anthropomorphic. Remember the Shell is the full body hard rap of the turtle. The back of the shell is the carapace, while the front is a plastron, with the side being a bridge. With the 2012 turtle's implications of course being they only have a Half Shell[Insert the 87 theme here]
But I do think for the '03 boys it makes sense if their plastron is still semi bone.
I'll explain under cut cause I got very long into my ramblings!
I mean we hear sharp cracking sounds in the last episode of season 4, episode 26 "Ninja Tribunal", when the Mokusai no Bushi step on Raph's chest. Which Ow??? He already had his chest area messed with in the past, why rebreak them? Dick move Tribunal!
So clearly they have inner bones to go with their outer shells. They from the outside are already missing the bridge of their shell, thus having ribs to support those areas make sense. That doesn't mean the plastron here isn't still the epidermis of his plastron, more so instead that his shell rather than wrapping around instead almost wraps inside. This could also imply they do have the bridge of their shell, their scaly skin just grows over it as it's more part of the ribs.
When looking at x-rays remember we're not just looking at the bones but also what isn't, is it all one consistent color or are their darker and lighter points which implies different things. This was how I saw the 12's bridge of their shells are still with bone plates.
So I went back to Season 3 Episode 19 "Reality Check" to see what you're talking about, but one problem; that's not an X-ray. It's not looking for bones. While confusingly it does show an Human-esq Skeleton, it doesn't register the shell as anything and as Griddex and Shellectro let us know it's a scanner, looking for super powers. And Mikey doesn't have any. He's just a Mutant Turtle.
Now here's where other errors that leads me to not trust this scan as being a full on x-ray are. The hands are even clenched even though we see Mikey laying down fully relaxed in the shot of him in the scanner.
Also the joints are all fused, which just by the boys own movements we know that's not the case.
Over all it's a really weird graphic that implies whatever the scanner is, it's not picking up on the β-keratin used for a turtle shell, only the bones. This implies that they have the hard β-keratin for their carapace and plastron but not the establishing bones?????? But as I said even then it's not picking up on all their bones. Mikey has a minor fracture of his ankle, so the smooth connection of his legs here make no sense. So what the heck is this scanner picking up?????????????? My only guess is that it's picking up marrow and not the actual bones. This would explain a few things such as the simplification of the joints and also ironically also explains the lack of bone plates. Unless of course turtle bones were just a lot of β-keratin and not actual bones(much like some fish).
SO I double checked the last post I made about shell's, not the 2012 one, but my one about Leo's scar. After triple checking to make sure that turtle bones are in fact like normal bones, and not just full of β-keratin(which would've explained why x-ray has never picked up their shells) and yeah, even the plastron has bone plates in it at the dermis layer.
All of this to say, becuase of the weirdness going on here, that's not an x-ray, idk what it is, but this "Scanner" works a bit differently than just or even all bones. Which is????? Confusing???
But if it is an x-ray, this implies you can tell superpowers based on bone structure. Which yeah I am Not Touching That.
Based on everything we see with all the different kind of rib damage from Raph, as well as Leo's shell damage; I think they have a human skeleton with inner turtle plate shells as well, but then they have skin growing over that rather than the following higher layers of epidermis and basal lamina for their sides. The reason I think that is becuase, unlike the 12 boys, the 03 boys never show levels of flexibility that their shell should limit(such as the extreme hip cocking I showed 12!Mikey doing).
So I think they might just have ribs that connect between two sternums, and from the glace of the Reality Check ""Scanner""" I'd say the ribs don't get small as they go down. Weird tube cage, I guess????????????
Now I have seen Mutant Mayham only once and I have never seen Tales(I know, I know. I'll get around to it at some point.) so I am going to trust you real hard and say your right about all that!
Basically all n all, the exposed sides of the 03 boys IMPLIES THINGS and they're all weird no matter your interpretation, but it is different way from the 12 boy's brand of weirdness. The 12 boys have human dna so the removal of some of their keratin which isn't in too much of human's stuff makes sense. But 03s??? They had their bones rearranged rather than just softened I guess.
Of course you can disagree with me about the Super Turtle's scanner, that's fair. It is a fancy piece of sci-fantasy tech.
I'd disagree of course, becuase as I said you can hear a crackling on Raph; implying a bit of solidness to his plastron that, if there wasn't bone plates underneath it, wouldn't be there. But as the scanner is a good argument/proof for no plastron bones to just stick with if you wish to disagree. That's totally fair lmao, I am just crazy
So I am rewatching 2012 again(I want to have a full rewatch or two in before doing any meta) and during S1E5 I Think His Name is Baxter Stockman we see Stockman use his tech to see see X-rays of the boys, we also see them shocked as well and see their bones through that and what we see caught my eye.
First all as we can see, his plastron is given the same color as his limbs. This is odd becuase turtle shells in their entirety(Plastron, Carapace, Bridging) Are all bone(along with a lot of other stuff but that isn't relevant here).
Now as we can see here the light color on the ribs reach out to the bridge of his shell, implying that part is still bone, though also not entirely bone as well interestingly.
This does explain how they can get so bendy though(besides the Doylist answer of it's expressive animation meant to convey emotions not meant to be realistic becuase this whole post is looking at the Watsonian implications after all)
So whatever the plastron is in the 12 boys, it seems to be taking more after Splinter's human DNA. This of course is not the first time we see this with the boys. Their ability to blush implies a level of warm-bloodedness As Well As having more human-esq skin allowing for the blood to show through allowing for blushing and getting red in the face with anger.
Next another weird observant about the boys bone structure is they don't really have toe joints.
That is just a toe shape tube of bone. They have properly separated heels, but not toe joints.
Idk what you'd do with this information, but it's funny and weird.
I know it’s fun to do and play around with, but when it comes to 03, the brothers don’t have a favorite brother, especially not Leo. To quote a mutual as leader, Leo is neutral and equal to all of his bros; they are a team, a family. There have been instances of Leo being soft to Raph and too Mikey. Like in the debut episode with Nobody, Leo offered to go on a run with Mikey, and of course, we can’t forget that moment in grudge match when he offered to train him. When Leo came back from Japan, he reassured Raph that everything is okay, and we can’t forget the times Leo smiled at Raph. Or the times Leo yelled Raph’s name when something happened. He saved Raph who was paralyzed by the giant bugs or when he jumped in to save Mikey when he too got stung. I am sure there’s more moments these come at the top of my head. Oh Raph helped Leo build his swords and he also noted how he’s the first one in there if Leo needs him in I Monster.
Don and Raph, oh boy, where to start? There are so many moments of these two being soft to each other. Raph never argues with Don. As for Don and Mikey, we know Don manages the guy’s ADHD by making him do stuff. We got Junklantis, where these two had a blast fighting the garbage man. Oh, when they pretended to be Bigfoot to mess with Finn.
Mikey and Raph, the OG besties, their love language is bantering and roughhousing. We can’t forget how horrified he was when he almost brained Mikey. We can’t forget this: “Even me, Raph?” “Especially you, Mikey, especially you.” The point I am making is that the 03 brothers all have different dynamics with one another; there is no favoritism, just four guys who have different ways of bonding with each other individually.
Does 07 Raph have the same buttons as 03 Raph tho? He’s older and more mature at this point what ticks you off as teenager may not be what ticks you off on your twenties ya know what I am sayin
I find that he does! This was after all how Leo got ahead of the Nightwatcher even before he knew it was Raph; through excessive amounts of talking and poking at his rage!
Donny in season 3 episode 21 Same As It Never was: I would never just leave my brothers without a word! I can't believe that we'd ever abandon each other or be so cruel D:<
Donny in season 4 episode 18 Trouble with Augie: Yeah sure April I'll jump with you to another dimension without telling or texting anyone else or even preparing supplies to save your Uncle by doing the exact same thing he did all those years ago when he went missing.
Bro's mortality salience made him have the hubris and self esteem of Icarus and the most broken risk assessments. Tbf he is right in believing he simply Is That Turtle. He survived all of that after all
Do you still have nightmares about that place? The bodies of brothers who stole your voice, went for the throat, and tore out your heart falling on you over and over. The deaths stripping you of their love. They trusted you after all. You were the one who would make everything better.
It's not your fault.
They demanded you voice hope, bare your neck and let them bite, all while wear your heart on your sleeve. No matter the personal cost. No matter the pain. They demanded you to lift the world. But you were not ready. There was never a choice in your mind was there?
Did they ever realize they were the adults and you were the child?
I was editing clips for a Leo and Raph video I couldn’t help but noticed in most fight scenes Raph doesn’t seem as flashy like in shredder strikes back part 2 Don and Mikey seemed to do all this fancy stuff Raph not so much I could be too nit picky it just what I noticed
Watsanion answer: Raph is an efficient fighter looking to save the most energy and fight the fastest
Doylist answer: The animators only kinda know what to do with Sai's and fancy Sai choreography so they kept things a bit more simple and less interactive with the environment
The concept of 03 and 07 Raph meeting is so funny, becuase I know they'd just loath each other.
Like as shown by City at War, if 03 Raph ever heard about 07's Nightatcher gig, he'd be just brimming with rage. "You endangered your family's safety, For What." Just morally and emotionally speaking 07 Raph is so much like a twisted version of 03 Leo with the parts of 03 Raph he himself did his best to grow and remove, so there would be instant beef.
Meanwhile 07 Raph is defensive and duty driven, so 03's more clan centric thinking(for a lack of a better term) and default hostility would just fuel the flames so so so much. Thrown in how passive aggress 07 is vs 03's sheer heart on sleeve bluntness and it would not end well, but like in the funniest of ways.
Imagine meeting yourself, but the other you's morality and family dynamics is so different he might as well not be you
We do actually see him one more time; in the intro of the movie!
It's only a couple minutes in as the narrator talks about them defeating their "archenemy" The Shredder, a very blink and you miss it moment!
He interestingly seems to have a different color pallet but the same design over all(likely a miscommunication between the artists and toy company if I had to guess), though here he's rocking the bare skin arms and pure white eyes.
Going through the episode "Tale of Master Yoshi" for Tang Shen's characterization because I thought how wild it is for her to just manhandle wild animals and I realized that not only is Tang Shen crazy, but in fact all of The Ancient One's kids are feral.
(My long analyzation rant will be hidden under the read more)
Like starting off with Tang Shen just because she has the least amount of screen time.
Everything said implies she was raised like Yoshi and Mashimi, which implies she has shinobi training, which based on how she was able to grab the trained blade of Mashimi before he killed Splinter. She's also able to lurk and overhear the conversation about the Utrom Gaurdianship off between TAO and the boys showing stealth training. Like she's skilled and uses it exclusively to get her way. She does not follow the boys into battle or help Mortu in anyway, while according to The Ancient One (who was telling this story to Leo who was then telling the story to his brothers over 15 years at minimum after her death, ergo embellishments were likely made to reflect on how grief and time changes your view and memory of things) her first impulse is always help "hungry, innocent creatures", this clearly does not apply to actual people or maybe it just does not fancy direct combat.
That line about hungry creatures is wild becuase it implies this is not her first time doing this. She just nurses and feeds wild animals all the time.
Which is cute and all but think about it for more than five seconds and you realize she's likely feeding and bring in all sorts of animals that Simply Do Not Belong There. Already worrisome with creatures like deer but then it clicks she's fine with Rats which are animals that'll chew through cables and even bite you. Meaning she's likely fine with other dangerous creatures. That hurt venomous tiger keelback snake? That's her new friend. The Ancient One's hair might be white becuase of her.
She is feral, she loves Yoshi because he's a bit off(And we'll get to him, 03 Yoshi is wild the more you think about him) and she likes snooping around but unlike the brothers is okay with not being fully curious like the boys as shown by her staying behind. Or more accurately she actually has some self preservation. Well when it comes to people. Maybe not animals.
(This is so so so funny in comparison to her 2012 counterpart who avoids conflict out of an implied moral reason. 03 just didn't want the vibes)
Then there's Yukio Mashimi, incel he is not.
What he actually is; a hungry hungry orphan starving for attention that given to him, becuase he is himself.
The Ancient One originally wasn't going to feed him, just Yoshi becuase he was the one who caught the coin(implying the later stuff like training and adoption as well). But it was Yoshi who's loyalty kicked in and asked for his friend to be included as well. He was a kid from the streets who was trying to survive, even through less than moral means. The narrative seems to use this as foreshadowing for his later actions but bro he's a kid who's barely taller than the ancient one, the guy who's shorter than the 4'10 rat. So based on this height and weight averages in Japan, they're like 10-12. They are kids. He is laughing alongside his bro.
Heck when they where shyling watching Tang Shen it was Mashimi who pushed Yoshi from behind the poll. As if to say "You go talk to her first". (And Tang Shen just laughed at them both becuase she's lowkey a troll like TAO.) They have this brotherhood that doesn't have a rivalry, even if they both ended up liking the same girl. He follows Yoshi into battle as well as into Utrom Guardianship. Bro wants community and acceptance.
"How dare you ask why! You betrayed me! We were like brothers, but you took everything and left me with nothing. Nothing! Now I take everything from you, including your life!"
But just like with TAO, once again Yoshi ends up in the spotlight as he's the shadow, any achievement he get's he has to share, no love just for him. This could be becuase he just does less, or becuase while Yoshi is proactive, he is reactive, but it happens either way. TAO claims it's becuase he has "Darkness In His Heart" but that reads as a cope, trying to figure out why his son betrayed them.
However you don't just have the Shredder Know You By Name out of nowhere.
As shown by Leo, he finds you alone and tries to groom you into what he wants from you. This didn't work on Leo who already has the love and community from his brothers and friends. But Mashimi isn't shown to have any friends outside of his family. His connections include people who, while he loves and they love him, are part of his insecurities and inferiority complex. So like Karai, the Shredder found an orphan to make feel special and train for his doing. The Foot Clan is almost cultish with how you can find echo's of this same idea over and over. Of course even looking of the personal profile of Foot Ninja Akira shows that.
Yukio Mashimi kills Tang Shen the night he betrays Yoshi and the Utrom for the Shredder's attention and community. Almost like he's trying to erase who he was. He even tries to get the jump on Tang Shen to do so, but she catches him first.
"Oh, Mashimi, you startled me."
But he still failed and the Shredder wanted nothing more from him, a useless tool. When Yoshi came a knocking, he simply watched. And with Mashimi's dying breath, he called out for brother. (There's a good SAINW parallel in there)
He died as he lived; Wanting someone to pay attention to him because of him.
That bad boi is living in a Greek Tragedy, I s w e a r
Now let's talk about Hamato Yoshi.
That insane man. Yeah he has integrity and loyalty, which I respect, but did he need to go full John Wick?
His love man handles a rat into a pet and he thinks, yeah the best choice here is to just build it a little house. Then later he has said "little one" relax on his shoulder enough that there was paintings of it. He teaches Splinter how to bow while on said shoulder.
By that point of course Splinter has become his therapy rat, but it is no wonder he was like a father to Splinter. This man gave so much attention to the little guy.
"I will name you Splinter, to remind me of what I have done and what I have failed to do. And together, we will remind each other of Tang Shen. Of her beauty, her kindness, and love."
Man even as a child had morals of steel, going to give money that was dropped by TAO even as he was hungry. He even then later went behind said father's back, who forbade him so, to become an Utrom Guardian.
But even with these disagreements his love ran deep, leaving The Ancient One, his father, to NYC as to not have the Shredder on their head. Speaking of that. This man went through the entire Japanese Foot Clan Compound to Challenge "That Assassin" Mashimi to a duel!!! He did not even care about the Shredder, he went through all those guys Just For Revenge. His loyalty and love can't be over stated, there's a reason he died for his ideals without telling the Shredder anything despite the torture.
Of course he also just loves a good fight. He was a Battle Nexus Champion after all, he has to enjoy combat as something more than just a skill for self defense. Really between this and him becoming an Utrom Guardian for "Curiosity" reasons it's no wonder he and Tang Shen fell for each other; they're different brands of crazy.
Then there's the whole tangling with the Ninja Tribunal. See him going to the Tribunal to deal with Ch'rell is interesting becuase he likely did that on behalf of the Utrom and they said No. In that moment he was showing loyalty as a guardian sure, but this would also require him to get in contact with his father to get to where they were. This was not a simple "lemme check" as shown by the turtle's own voyage. Yet he still went, and he likely went back to Japan but not to his home which is very sad to me.
We also have the Ancient One implying he was trying to make Yoshi into a possible Acolyte to layer on this. But like many things with the Tribunal, they just ignored the Ancient One.
"The Guardians are no place for you. You must not do this. Yoshi, a different destiny awaits you."
Either that or he just knew he was going to miss his sons too much to do that, even then still singling out Yoshi fueling Mashimi's mental break later. Over all worst Business trip ever.
But this shows that Yoshi has stone rock loyalty and integrity even as a child, natural leadership skills, and a knack for knowing the right people. And he decided that yeah, Pet Rats, Tengu Tournaments, Secret Societies, and Ninjutsu were what he was going to use these skills for.
You can tell all three of these kids where raised by the No F's Given Ancient One.
I was rewatching the 07 TMNT movie again and I noticed a weird quirk the script has: Age Roles(I am saying roles here as we're never given exact ages, and thus there is an argument that they just assigned the roles of bigger and littler brother) and how they are assigned to them in this iteration.
These age roles are only mentioned twice, both in the movies and prequel comics, and both times are done by the two turtles who do have a minor power struggle with each other, and neither time is it self referential.
They're both said in the context of belittlement and never in reference to or imply that Donnie even has a role or dynamic age role wise in the first place.
These roles are seemingly never stated in reference to oneself, but always given instead by the others.
"Right, and while you've been playing games, little brother this Nightwatcher character's come into the neighborhood like some kind of vigilante showboat." [Said by Leo to Mikey]
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one." [Said by Raph to Leo]
This is saying something.
Of course what that is depends on your interpretation. To me it seemingly implies that while both Raph and Leo are a lot more concerned with a perceived hierarchy compared to Mikey and Donnie.
But if you do run with that implication then you'll also have to acknowledge this puts Donnie out of this age role based hierarchy.
Which is interesting seeing as it was Donatello who was given the leadership role when Leo was away. Or implied to more accurately. It's never stated anywhere that Donnie was given such a role, with the only implication being that he has it when Leo tells April Donnie has it under control when she was trying to get Leo to come back with the argument being that his brothers where lost without him. Thus you can make the assumption he has the leader role, but it's never stated in canon.
A lot of 07's canon is implications, such as them having a Honeycutt due to them knowing the Triceratons which implies a space arc, but there's very little actual canon.
So I am working with what we got and making presumptions based on that.
Either way the implications here are that either Donnie is not really thought of in terms of age, or he's twining with Raph thus has an equal amount of social power so Raph can't use it to spite him and Donnie seemingly doesn't fight Leo, or not directly. Him following Raph and Mikey instead of just observing with Leo like they're suppose to be doing could be seen as indirect fighting.
Of course 07 Donnie overall has a coat of apathy towards the world, something we see accidently jaded down by Splinter's punishing of him and Mikey when they stopped crime in the prequel comics. So Donnie avoiding all age roles through sheer indifference, and his brothers not giving him that role seeing that it does nothing, would not be out of character.
This also got me thinking about age roles in wider TMNT canon as well.
Such as how in 2012 I remember how big brother is a role that bends and nearly breaks Leo while Mikey is constantly called little brother but I can't remember any time age roles were used in reference to either Dee or Raph.
Of course I do not know 2012 as well as 07 or 03 so feel free to counter this statement.
Meanwhile in full contest 03 has No References to age At All, not even in the Japanese dub. This continues to reinforce how the 03 family tend to take things as a group and help each other out(another reason why Leo's descent into his season 4 behavior is concerning and not the norm for his character) rather than having any power dynamics or parentification within their group. This of course goes along with 03's focus on outer group threats rather than inner group ones.
Mikey and Leo are pretty much always the ones referred to by some sort of age role, though this changed with Rise. Even recently I saw these comic panels someone posted that also only highlight their relative places in the family:
I'd be interested to figure out the first time any sort of age role was mentioned in any TMNT canon. Because honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this just naturally developed over time based on their personalities. Even with 2003 it's common to headcanon those two as youngest and oldest because their personalities just fit those roles well. It's probably why Donnie and Raph being twins is such a common headcanon - they don't read particularly strong either way or people have different headcanons of who would be older.
I have to say, based on what I've watched/read, the 07 iteration was the first time ages were talked about outside of toylines, like the 1988 playmates toys. Unless, of course, the Archie comic fans and Next Mutation fans plus the crossovers fanss, want to chime in and show counter proof.
I've read all of the Image/Urban run multiple times and I do not think I saw see any age roles, and have I not seen any age dynamics in 03, nor from what I have seen in 87 or the 90s movies, and what I remember of my single mirage comics read through. Maybe there was behind the scenes stuff, but as far as direct canon goes there seems to be nothing.
Really the concept of Age Roles in direct canon seems to be a more modern Tmnt thing created by 07, played with further in 2012 and then full leaned into with IDW and Rise.
I could sit here and make an overly aggressive arm chair psychologist statement about stereotypes based on dysfunctional families where the oldest is in someway parentified, but that's too big of a sweeping brush with out any data to back it up to really say. After all, different family dynamics are healthy and not healthy for different families; it all depends on what said individuals of the family needs. Besides overall I find fandom analysts and judgements always to be clunky at best as that's too many people to throw under one brush.
It is funny though to the rest of us who grew up with oldest siblings/are the oldest sibling who are more like Donatello, Raphael, or Michelangelo to hear statements like "Leo Just Acts Like An Oldest Brother" though.
Of course if I was forced at gun point to give up my quadruplet headcanons for many of the iterations I'd likely pick the twins option for Donnie and Raph.
But really I am less interested in the Doylist take here and more interested in the Watsonian implications for all of the mentioned iterations. In this case being, the in universe implications of Donatello never being referred to or using the age roles himself in reference to his brothers.
Yeah I could see this being something Donatello isn't particularly interested in — whereas Leo and Mikey may happily accept the roles as younger vs older siblings because it helps them define their place in the family, Donatello may not subscribe to such defined roles. Either out of apathy or perhaps even a dislike of being defined by some stereotype.
If Mikey and Leo accept due to identity issues* then where does Raph land in this? Especially 07 Raph who spits Big Brother with vitriol?
I imagine for 07 Donatello it's likely a distancing technique while Raph is looking to hurt so he's reminding Leo what he left. It's very interesting and adds another layer to their interactions!
Meanwhile for 2012 I just know for Donnie it's due to it not being factually correct and Raphael's need to Cause Problems On Purpose Because It's Funny kicked in and he ignores it out of rebellion.
*This concept is really good and is something I could see matching 03 Mikey's insecurities, 12 Mikey's mischief and wanting an out for said troublemaking, 12 Leo's need for control and pride and 07 Leo's absolute need to please. However this doesn't fit 07 Mikey, both in the prequel comics and in the movie. He's very confident and even a bit ambitious, even if that's always played for laughs. Volunteering for the trip that Leo would be picked for, nearly risking his job to do what's right while using said job an excuse to go topside And pay grocery bills, all while having enough time to play videogames thus keeping a work life balance, just shows how ambitious yet self controlled he is. Making his dynamic into this as a curve ball. But then again 07 Mikey never uses the age role, it's Leo using it to patronize him after being a little immature with his joking. 07 Mikey continues to be the oddest of the Mikey fr, right up there with season 1 '87 Mike.
Yeah it definitely feels like there's some bitterness behind it with Raph. Could be that there was some level of competition between them when they were younger for the leader/oldest brother/head of the family kind of role. Could also just be him throwing an affectionate term in his brother's face, as if to say what kind of a big brother are you since you abandoned us? Though I don't remember the full context of the scene. I generally don't think he particularly cares about 'age' so much as respect, like he doesn't want to be looked down on or feel inferior.
In terms of 07 Mikey, it's possible he's coming to realize the limitations of being considered the youngest. They're older in the 07 movie, and much like siblings when they grow up, the roles they might have had when they were younger could be changing. The difference between a few years when you're young is huge in terms of development, so those roles can be pretty defined because by nature older siblings are capable of handling more responsibility, etc. But as they get older they end up on a more equal playing field and younger siblings could resent continuing to be treated as the baby. Could be similar for Mike - maybe he was fine being treated as the youngest but now he's starting to take on more responsibility and not quite fitting into that role anymore, maybe wanting to break free from it a bit and being treated more like an equal.
I am not even sure it's fully competitiveness like we see in 2012, I think it might just be more about the abandonment and bitterness that came from that.
I'll give you full context of the Big Brother scene as I think that really proves it.
Leo is fighting The Nightwatcher on the roof tops(The infamous 07 scene itself <3), and then knocks off his helmet to reveal that he was fighting Raph the whole time. While Leo didn't realize that until that moment he was monologuing at him the full time, so Raph was fully fed up gives his rant.
"You are so smug, you know that? You think the world revolves around you, don't you? That we couldn't survive without the mighty and powerful Leonardo to guide us through our problems, huh? Well, I got a news flash for you: We got along just fine without you."
"Oh, and this qualifies as "just fine"? Dressing up like it's Halloween every night? Risking the safety of our family? I mean, come on, what were you thinking?"
"Don't push it, Leo. You can't leave home and come back expecting us to fall in line like your little soldiers."
"Hey, I was training. Training to be a better leader, for you! Why do you hate me for that?"
"And whoever said I wanted to be led!? I'm better off calling my own shots now. Get used to it."
"You aren't ready! You're impatient and hot-tempered. And more importantly, I'm better than you."
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one."
"Don't do this, Raph."
"I'm done taking orders."
So yeah add this with the context of the prequel comics that Leo's trip was suppose to be one year, as state with his conversation with April in the final pages of issue 5.
However as established by the first issue it takes 18 months for Raphael to get full revenge for the previous Nightwatcher, David Merryweather
And then at the start of the movie we have this line from April:
"Your training period ended a year ago and Splinter says you don't write anymore."
Which means Leo's whole training period was a year long, at the end of it April visited, and then a year later April visited again.
(Now there's an argument here that the final panels where Leo said It's time to go home happened after the movie scene, however there's also a possibility that since he's pondering the conversation in the first visit it happened after she left that first time which means Something Big happened between that moment and the next time she finds him. Missing Time, another near death experience, maybe he talked himself out of it which is also why he's no longer writing back, who knows.)
And yeah this whole exchange reads as bitterness towards Leo, both in his leaving and him coming back and trying to pretend nothing had happened. Because it's been at least two years and how dare Leo come in give a lecture and then start taunting him, or rather the Nightwatcher during the fight, and then belittling him more personally afterwards? Especially about this, something that was the last thing they were arguing about before Leo left, the arguing about who to save and not to save, kill that Triceraton or stop that mugging above? (TBF Leo did have some points but he did it in the worst way possible, so we're not talking about my failboy meow meow)
So yeah I agree with you whole heartily, he does not like the belittling or inferiority and is using it was a weapon against Leo for how he lefts(idk if it worked or not, or if Leo even cares cause they did that Brother thing of making up but not apologizing or talking about it, but hey that's why we love them; their dysfunctional as heck)
As for Mikey, well the thing is as I've stated it's been two years but all of his ideas and ambition started before Leo was sent away. So let's say they're 18, still fitting the title of TMNT while also hitting that adult area the writers wanted, that would mean they where 16 when Leo left. If they're was ever a point where he was not over eager to get some responsibility and rank, we do not see it.
Not even a hint of it interestingly. He's goofy sure, but he's always looking for more. That weird want for ambition and reasonability you don't see in most iterations of Mikey.
So if there was a time where Mikey liked that idea we never see it, just like we never see Raph and Leo communicating healthly we never seen it. Thus this was something put upon Mikey likely before they defeated Shredder.
Meaning if he out grew it, it was long before Leo left which makes the little brother comment even worse.
(07 Leo I love you, yet you seemingly have negative ability to read a room I need to know how you ended up as a leader? Was it battle tactics and skill alone? If so that makes Raph's speech to Splinter near the end of the movie Even Worse than what it already was. No wonder Raph thought he was the least son and student. And then Splinter comforted him by saying he's not the least favorite son all while saying he's the least favorite student indirectly. Or worse this comment was on purpose and bro just wanted to take shots at Mikey, likely out of resentment for him being able to do things like play video games)
07 figured out how to weaponized endearments into psychological warfare and they should be feared for it.
I was rewatching the 07 TMNT movie again and I noticed a weird quirk the script has: Age Roles(I am saying roles here as we're never given exact ages, and thus there is an argument that they just assigned the roles of bigger and littler brother) and how they are assigned to them in this iteration.
These age roles are only mentioned twice, both in the movies and prequel comics, and both times are done by the two turtles who do have a minor power struggle with each other, and neither time is it self referential.
They're both said in the context of belittlement and never in reference to or imply that Donnie even has a role or dynamic age role wise in the first place.
These roles are seemingly never stated in reference to oneself, but always given instead by the others.
"Right, and while you've been playing games, little brother this Nightwatcher character's come into the neighborhood like some kind of vigilante showboat." [Said by Leo to Mikey]
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one." [Said by Raph to Leo]
This is saying something.
Of course what that is depends on your interpretation. To me it seemingly implies that while both Raph and Leo are a lot more concerned with a perceived hierarchy compared to Mikey and Donnie.
But if you do run with that implication then you'll also have to acknowledge this puts Donnie out of this age role based hierarchy.
Which is interesting seeing as it was Donatello who was given the leadership role when Leo was away. Or implied to more accurately. It's never stated anywhere that Donnie was given such a role, with the only implication being that he has it when Leo tells April Donnie has it under control when she was trying to get Leo to come back with the argument being that his brothers where lost without him. Thus you can make the assumption he has the leader role, but it's never stated in canon.
A lot of 07's canon is implications, such as them having a Honeycutt due to them knowing the Triceratons which implies a space arc, but there's very little actual canon.
So I am working with what we got and making presumptions based on that.
Either way the implications here are that either Donnie is not really thought of in terms of age, or he's twining with Raph thus has an equal amount of social power so Raph can't use it to spite him and Donnie seemingly doesn't fight Leo, or not directly. Him following Raph and Mikey instead of just observing with Leo like they're suppose to be doing could be seen as indirect fighting.
Of course 07 Donnie overall has a coat of apathy towards the world, something we see accidently jaded down by Splinter's punishing of him and Mikey when they stopped crime in the prequel comics. So Donnie avoiding all age roles through sheer indifference, and his brothers not giving him that role seeing that it does nothing, would not be out of character.
This also got me thinking about age roles in wider TMNT canon as well.
Such as how in 2012 I remember how big brother is a role that bends and nearly breaks Leo while Mikey is constantly called little brother but I can't remember any time age roles were used in reference to either Dee or Raph.
Of course I do not know 2012 as well as 07 or 03 so feel free to counter this statement.
Meanwhile in full contest 03 has No References to age At All, not even in the Japanese dub. This continues to reinforce how the 03 family tend to take things as a group and help each other out(another reason why Leo's descent into his season 4 behavior is concerning and not the norm for his character) rather than having any power dynamics or parentification within their group. This of course goes along with 03's focus on outer group threats rather than inner group ones.
Mikey and Leo are pretty much always the ones referred to by some sort of age role, though this changed with Rise. Even recently I saw these comic panels someone posted that also only highlight their relative places in the family:
I'd be interested to figure out the first time any sort of age role was mentioned in any TMNT canon. Because honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this just naturally developed over time based on their personalities. Even with 2003 it's common to headcanon those two as youngest and oldest because their personalities just fit those roles well. It's probably why Donnie and Raph being twins is such a common headcanon - they don't read particularly strong either way or people have different headcanons of who would be older.
I have to say, based on what I've watched/read, the 07 iteration was the first time ages were talked about outside of toylines, like the 1988 playmates toys. Unless, of course, the Archie comic fans and Next Mutation fans plus the crossovers fanss, want to chime in and show counter proof.
I've read all of the Image/Urban run multiple times and I do not think I saw see any age roles, and have I not seen any age dynamics in 03, nor from what I have seen in 87 or the 90s movies, and what I remember of my single mirage comics read through. Maybe there was behind the scenes stuff, but as far as direct canon goes there seems to be nothing.
Really the concept of Age Roles in direct canon seems to be a more modern Tmnt thing created by 07, played with further in 2012 and then full leaned into with IDW and Rise.
I could sit here and make an overly aggressive arm chair psychologist statement about stereotypes based on dysfunctional families where the oldest is in someway parentified, but that's too big of a sweeping brush with out any data to back it up to really say. After all, different family dynamics are healthy and not healthy for different families; it all depends on what said individuals of the family needs. Besides overall I find fandom analysts and judgements always to be clunky at best as that's too many people to throw under one brush.
It is funny though to the rest of us who grew up with oldest siblings/are the oldest sibling who are more like Donatello, Raphael, or Michelangelo to hear statements like "Leo Just Acts Like An Oldest Brother" though.
Of course if I was forced at gun point to give up my quadruplet headcanons for many of the iterations I'd likely pick the twins option for Donnie and Raph.
But really I am less interested in the Doylist take here and more interested in the Watsonian implications for all of the mentioned iterations. In this case being, the in universe implications of Donatello never being referred to or using the age roles himself in reference to his brothers.
Yeah I could see this being something Donatello isn't particularly interested in — whereas Leo and Mikey may happily accept the roles as younger vs older siblings because it helps them define their place in the family, Donatello may not subscribe to such defined roles. Either out of apathy or perhaps even a dislike of being defined by some stereotype.
If Mikey and Leo accept due to identity issues* then where does Raph land in this? Especially 07 Raph who spits Big Brother with vitriol?
I imagine for 07 Donatello it's likely a distancing technique while Raph is looking to hurt so he's reminding Leo what he left. It's very interesting and adds another layer to their interactions!
Meanwhile for 2012 I just know for Donnie it's due to it not being factually correct and Raphael's need to Cause Problems On Purpose Because It's Funny kicked in and he ignores it out of rebellion.
*This concept is really good and is something I could see matching 03 Mikey's insecurities, 12 Mikey's mischief and wanting an out for said troublemaking, 12 Leo's need for control and pride and 07 Leo's absolute need to please. However this doesn't fit 07 Mikey, both in the prequel comics and in the movie. He's very confident and even a bit ambitious, even if that's always played for laughs. Volunteering for the trip that Leo would be picked for, nearly risking his job to do what's right while using said job an excuse to go topside And pay grocery bills, all while having enough time to play videogames thus keeping a work life balance, just shows how ambitious yet self controlled he is. Making his dynamic into this as a curve ball. But then again 07 Mikey never uses the age role, it's Leo using it to patronize him after being a little immature with his joking. 07 Mikey continues to be the oddest of the Mikey fr, right up there with season 1 '87 Mike.
I was rewatching the 07 TMNT movie again and I noticed a weird quirk the script has: Age Roles(I am saying roles here as we're never given exact ages, and thus there is an argument that they just assigned the roles of bigger and littler brother) and how they are assigned to them in this iteration.
These age roles are only mentioned twice, both in the movies and prequel comics, and both times are done by the two turtles who do have a minor power struggle with each other, and neither time is it self referential.
They're both said in the context of belittlement and never in reference to or imply that Donnie even has a role or dynamic age role wise in the first place.
These roles are seemingly never stated in reference to oneself, but always given instead by the others.
"Right, and while you've been playing games, little brother this Nightwatcher character's come into the neighborhood like some kind of vigilante showboat." [Said by Leo to Mikey]
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one." [Said by Raph to Leo]
This is saying something.
Of course what that is depends on your interpretation. To me it seemingly implies that while both Raph and Leo are a lot more concerned with a perceived hierarchy compared to Mikey and Donnie.
But if you do run with that implication then you'll also have to acknowledge this puts Donnie out of this age role based hierarchy.
Which is interesting seeing as it was Donatello who was given the leadership role when Leo was away. Or implied to more accurately. It's never stated anywhere that Donnie was given such a role, with the only implication being that he has it when Leo tells April Donnie has it under control when she was trying to get Leo to come back with the argument being that his brothers where lost without him. Thus you can make the assumption he has the leader role, but it's never stated in canon.
A lot of 07's canon is implications, such as them having a Honeycutt due to them knowing the Triceratons which implies a space arc, but there's very little actual canon.
So I am working with what we got and making presumptions based on that.
Either way the implications here are that either Donnie is not really thought of in terms of age, or he's twining with Raph thus has an equal amount of social power so Raph can't use it to spite him and Donnie seemingly doesn't fight Leo, or not directly. Him following Raph and Mikey instead of just observing with Leo like they're suppose to be doing could be seen as indirect fighting.
Of course 07 Donnie overall has a coat of apathy towards the world, something we see accidently jaded down by Splinter's punishing of him and Mikey when they stopped crime in the prequel comics. So Donnie avoiding all age roles through sheer indifference, and his brothers not giving him that role seeing that it does nothing, would not be out of character.
This also got me thinking about age roles in wider TMNT canon as well.
Such as how in 2012 I remember how big brother is a role that bends and nearly breaks Leo while Mikey is constantly called little brother but I can't remember any time age roles were used in reference to either Dee or Raph.
Of course I do not know 2012 as well as 07 or 03 so feel free to counter this statement.
Meanwhile in full contest 03 has No References to age At All, not even in the Japanese dub. This continues to reinforce how the 03 family tend to take things as a group and help each other out(another reason why Leo's descent into his season 4 behavior is concerning and not the norm for his character) rather than having any power dynamics or parentification within their group. This of course goes along with 03's focus on outer group threats rather than inner group ones.
I wonder sometimes about this with the universes where Splinter IS Hamato Yoshi because she hierarchy is absolutely a thing in traditional Japanese households. (I have the 87 group use titles rarely but they’re done with affection)
Actually in the prequel comics we have confirmation that this Splinter is not Hamato Yoshi, from this very mean version of the ancient one (Likely mean and as arrogant as the rest of the Tribunal since he seemed to have never had that separation that 03 AO has)
Meaning if this is a mimicry of Japanese households from the view of a rat, this implies he saw Hamato Yoshi being raised alongside at least one other person to pass this idea about age hierarchy.
Which does have multiple implications depending on how you interpret that such as
1. Only Raph and Leo were receptive to this teaching to actively put in practice, something that is likely due to how receptive Raphael is to Splinter when they actually talk to each other rather than at each other such as the finale of the 07 movie.
or
2. Splinter only had experience seeing these dynamics with three kids and not four, Donnie did not fit any of the archetypes of Yoshi and the other kids(Likely Tang Shen and either Yukio Mashimi OR Oroku Saki. Mashimi is more in line with 03 mythos but as we see with the Easter eggs 07 also has a lot of 90s influence meaning Saki being the rival instead could be possible, especially since 07 Shredder from the art we see in the movie and the toy that was mode for it, looks human) and thus was not able to properly fit into this dynamic.
This does mean that Mikey reminds Splinter of Tang Shen which is a wild thing about what it implies about 07 Tang Shen personality, if she exists(Which seeing as 07 takes from 03 and 90s for their world building is very likely). It also has implications on how Splinter handles Raphael and Leo's dynamics, either as a conscious choice or a subconscious choice.
or
3. We're going back to Donatello purposely is subverting the hierarchy, likely a recent development after Leo left since during the time of his focused issue in the prequel comics he seems to be very close to Splinter despite said father dismissal and disapproval of his hijinks with Mikey in the previous issue.
In Donnie's issue it seems to be the first glimpse of Winters luring the monsters home, meaning Winters hasn't fully or even started collecting the statues. So that paired with his statement about his business partnership with Mikey in regards to Cowabunga Carl, implies this is still earlier on in Leo's absence.
So the relationship between father and son could've deteriorated since then and Donnie's disregard of tradition shows that.
No matter what you conclude there is a good point to be made about that as well!
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply 2007 Splinter was Hamato Yoshi. But I think thinking about the age hierarchy in the versions where he IS has some interesting implications
My bad, I misread and thus misunderstood what you meant.
In that case yeah I do think in the Yoshi!Splinter timelines has some interesting implacations.
Like for 2012 it's could be case of trauma projection, with there being that odd dynamic between him and Saki growing up. In IDW well you have actual reincarnation going on, but what about Rise? I am forgetting a part where Draxum said their ages or did Splinter just guess based on size and then Raph's semi-parentification just made everything else line up?
And for all of them was it a subconscious choice due to how he was raised or a more of a conscious choice he thought about when making that distinction of A Big and Little Brother?
I was rewatching the 07 TMNT movie again and I noticed a weird quirk the script has: Age Roles(I am saying roles here as we're never given exact ages, and thus there is an argument that they just assigned the roles of bigger and littler brother) and how they are assigned to them in this iteration.
These age roles are only mentioned twice, both in the movies and prequel comics, and both times are done by the two turtles who do have a minor power struggle with each other, and neither time is it self referential.
They're both said in the context of belittlement and never in reference to or imply that Donnie even has a role or dynamic age role wise in the first place.
These roles are seemingly never stated in reference to oneself, but always given instead by the others.
"Right, and while you've been playing games, little brother this Nightwatcher character's come into the neighborhood like some kind of vigilante showboat." [Said by Leo to Mikey]
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one." [Said by Raph to Leo]
This is saying something.
Of course what that is depends on your interpretation. To me it seemingly implies that while both Raph and Leo are a lot more concerned with a perceived hierarchy compared to Mikey and Donnie.
But if you do run with that implication then you'll also have to acknowledge this puts Donnie out of this age role based hierarchy.
Which is interesting seeing as it was Donatello who was given the leadership role when Leo was away. Or implied to more accurately. It's never stated anywhere that Donnie was given such a role, with the only implication being that he has it when Leo tells April Donnie has it under control when she was trying to get Leo to come back with the argument being that his brothers where lost without him. Thus you can make the assumption he has the leader role, but it's never stated in canon.
A lot of 07's canon is implications, such as them having a Honeycutt due to them knowing the Triceratons which implies a space arc, but there's very little actual canon.
So I am working with what we got and making presumptions based on that.
Either way the implications here are that either Donnie is not really thought of in terms of age, or he's twining with Raph thus has an equal amount of social power so Raph can't use it to spite him and Donnie seemingly doesn't fight Leo, or not directly. Him following Raph and Mikey instead of just observing with Leo like they're suppose to be doing could be seen as indirect fighting.
Of course 07 Donnie overall has a coat of apathy towards the world, something we see accidently jaded down by Splinter's punishing of him and Mikey when they stopped crime in the prequel comics. So Donnie avoiding all age roles through sheer indifference, and his brothers not giving him that role seeing that it does nothing, would not be out of character.
This also got me thinking about age roles in wider TMNT canon as well.
Such as how in 2012 I remember how big brother is a role that bends and nearly breaks Leo while Mikey is constantly called little brother but I can't remember any time age roles were used in reference to either Dee or Raph.
Of course I do not know 2012 as well as 07 or 03 so feel free to counter this statement.
Meanwhile in full contest 03 has No References to age At All, not even in the Japanese dub. This continues to reinforce how the 03 family tend to take things as a group and help each other out(another reason why Leo's descent into his season 4 behavior is concerning and not the norm for his character) rather than having any power dynamics or parentification within their group. This of course goes along with 03's focus on outer group threats rather than inner group ones.
Mikey and Leo are pretty much always the ones referred to by some sort of age role, though this changed with Rise. Even recently I saw these comic panels someone posted that also only highlight their relative places in the family:
I'd be interested to figure out the first time any sort of age role was mentioned in any TMNT canon. Because honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this just naturally developed over time based on their personalities. Even with 2003 it's common to headcanon those two as youngest and oldest because their personalities just fit those roles well. It's probably why Donnie and Raph being twins is such a common headcanon - they don't read particularly strong either way or people have different headcanons of who would be older.
I have to say, based on what I've watched/read, the 07 iteration was the first time ages were talked about outside of toylines, like the 1988 playmates toys. Unless, of course, the Archie comic fans and Next Mutation fans plus the crossovers fanss, want to chime in and show counter proof.
I've read all of the Image/Urban run multiple times and I do not think I saw see any age roles, and have I not seen any age dynamics in 03, nor from what I have seen in 87 or the 90s movies, and what I remember of my single mirage comics read through. Maybe there was behind the scenes stuff, but as far as direct canon goes there seems to be nothing.
Really the concept of Age Roles in direct canon seems to be a more modern Tmnt thing created by 07, played with further in 2012 and then full leaned into with IDW and Rise.
I could sit here and make an overly aggressive arm chair psychologist statement about stereotypes based on dysfunctional families where the oldest is in someway parentified, but that's too big of a sweeping brush with out any data to back it up to really say. After all, different family dynamics are healthy and not healthy for different families; it all depends on what said individuals of the family needs. Besides overall I find fandom analysts and judgements always to be clunky at best as that's too many people to throw under one brush.
It is funny though to the rest of us who grew up with oldest siblings/are the oldest sibling who are more like Donatello, Raphael, or Michelangelo to hear statements like "Leo Just Acts Like An Oldest Brother" though.
Of course if I was forced at gun point to give up my quadruplet headcanons for many of the iterations I'd likely pick the twins option for Donnie and Raph.
But really I am less interested in the Doylist take here and more interested in the Watsonian implications for all of the mentioned iterations. In this case being, the in universe implications of Donatello never being referred to or using the age roles himself in reference to his brothers.
I was rewatching the 07 TMNT movie again and I noticed a weird quirk the script has: Age Roles(I am saying roles here as we're never given exact ages, and thus there is an argument that they just assigned the roles of bigger and littler brother) and how they are assigned to them in this iteration.
These age roles are only mentioned twice, both in the movies and prequel comics, and both times are done by the two turtles who do have a minor power struggle with each other, and neither time is it self referential.
They're both said in the context of belittlement and never in reference to or imply that Donnie even has a role or dynamic age role wise in the first place.
These roles are seemingly never stated in reference to oneself, but always given instead by the others.
"Right, and while you've been playing games, little brother this Nightwatcher character's come into the neighborhood like some kind of vigilante showboat." [Said by Leo to Mikey]
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one." [Said by Raph to Leo]
This is saying something.
Of course what that is depends on your interpretation. To me it seemingly implies that while both Raph and Leo are a lot more concerned with a perceived hierarchy compared to Mikey and Donnie.
But if you do run with that implication then you'll also have to acknowledge this puts Donnie out of this age role based hierarchy.
Which is interesting seeing as it was Donatello who was given the leadership role when Leo was away. Or implied to more accurately. It's never stated anywhere that Donnie was given such a role, with the only implication being that he has it when Leo tells April Donnie has it under control when she was trying to get Leo to come back with the argument being that his brothers where lost without him. Thus you can make the assumption he has the leader role, but it's never stated in canon.
A lot of 07's canon is implications, such as them having a Honeycutt due to them knowing the Triceratons which implies a space arc, but there's very little actual canon.
So I am working with what we got and making presumptions based on that.
Either way the implications here are that either Donnie is not really thought of in terms of age, or he's twining with Raph thus has an equal amount of social power so Raph can't use it to spite him and Donnie seemingly doesn't fight Leo, or not directly. Him following Raph and Mikey instead of just observing with Leo like they're suppose to be doing could be seen as indirect fighting.
Of course 07 Donnie overall has a coat of apathy towards the world, something we see accidently jaded down by Splinter's punishing of him and Mikey when they stopped crime in the prequel comics. So Donnie avoiding all age roles through sheer indifference, and his brothers not giving him that role seeing that it does nothing, would not be out of character.
This also got me thinking about age roles in wider TMNT canon as well.
Such as how in 2012 I remember how big brother is a role that bends and nearly breaks Leo while Mikey is constantly called little brother but I can't remember any time age roles were used in reference to either Dee or Raph.
Of course I do not know 2012 as well as 07 or 03 so feel free to counter this statement.
Meanwhile in full contest 03 has No References to age At All, not even in the Japanese dub. This continues to reinforce how the 03 family tend to take things as a group and help each other out(another reason why Leo's descent into his season 4 behavior is concerning and not the norm for his character) rather than having any power dynamics or parentification within their group. This of course goes along with 03's focus on outer group threats rather than inner group ones.
I wonder sometimes about this with the universes where Splinter IS Hamato Yoshi because she hierarchy is absolutely a thing in traditional Japanese households. (I have the 87 group use titles rarely but they’re done with affection)
Actually in the prequel comics we have confirmation that this Splinter is not Hamato Yoshi, from this very mean version of the ancient one (Likely mean and as arrogant as the rest of the Tribunal since he seemed to have never had that separation that 03 AO has)
Meaning if this is a mimicry of Japanese households from the view of a rat, this implies he saw Hamato Yoshi being raised alongside at least one other person to pass this idea about age hierarchy.
Which does have multiple implications depending on how you interpret that such as
1. Only Raph and Leo were receptive to this teaching to actively put in practice, something that is likely due to how receptive Raphael is to Splinter when they actually talk to each other rather than at each other such as the finale of the 07 movie.
or
2. Splinter only had experience seeing these dynamics with three kids and not four, Donnie did not fit any of the archetypes of Yoshi and the other kids(Likely Tang Shen and either Yukio Mashimi OR Oroku Saki. Mashimi is more in line with 03 mythos but as we see with the Easter eggs 07 also has a lot of 90s influence meaning Saki being the rival instead could be possible, especially since 07 Shredder from the art we see in the movie and the toy that was mode for it, looks human) and thus was not able to properly fit into this dynamic.
This does mean that Mikey reminds Splinter of Tang Shen which is a wild thing about what it implies about 07 Tang Shen personality, if she exists(Which seeing as 07 takes from 03 and 90s for their world building is very likely). It also has implications on how Splinter handles Raphael and Leo's dynamics, either as a conscious choice or a subconscious choice.
or
3. We're going back to Donatello purposely is subverting the hierarchy, likely a recent development after Leo left since during the time of his focused issue in the prequel comics he seems to be very close to Splinter despite said father dismissal and disapproval of his hijinks with Mikey in the previous issue.
In Donnie's issue it seems to be the first glimpse of Winters luring the monsters home, meaning Winters hasn't fully or even started collecting the statues. So that paired with his statement about his business partnership with Mikey in regards to Cowabunga Carl, implies this is still earlier on in Leo's absence.
So the relationship between father and son could've deteriorated since then and Donnie's disregard of tradition shows that.
No matter what you conclude there is a good point to be made about that as well!
I was rewatching the 07 TMNT movie again and I noticed a weird quirk the script has: Age Roles(I am saying roles here as we're never given exact ages, and thus there is an argument that they just assigned the roles of bigger and littler brother) and how they are assigned to them in this iteration.
These age roles are only mentioned twice, both in the movies and prequel comics, and both times are done by the two turtles who do have a minor power struggle with each other, and neither time is it self referential.
They're both said in the context of belittlement and never in reference to or imply that Donnie even has a role or dynamic age role wise in the first place.
These roles are seemingly never stated in reference to oneself, but always given instead by the others.
"Right, and while you've been playing games, little brother this Nightwatcher character's come into the neighborhood like some kind of vigilante showboat." [Said by Leo to Mikey]
"Oh, you know something, big brother? I'd have to disagree with you on that one." [Said by Raph to Leo]
This is saying something.
Of course what that is depends on your interpretation. To me it seemingly implies that while both Raph and Leo are a lot more concerned with a perceived hierarchy compared to Mikey and Donnie.
But if you do run with that implication then you'll also have to acknowledge this puts Donnie out of this age role based hierarchy.
Which is interesting seeing as it was Donatello who was given the leadership role when Leo was away. Or implied to more accurately. It's never stated anywhere that Donnie was given such a role, with the only implication being that he has it when Leo tells April Donnie has it under control when she was trying to get Leo to come back with the argument being that his brothers where lost without him. Thus you can make the assumption he has the leader role, but it's never stated in canon.
A lot of 07's canon is implications, such as them having a Honeycutt due to them knowing the Triceratons which implies a space arc, but there's very little actual canon.
So I am working with what we got and making presumptions based on that.
Either way the implications here are that either Donnie is not really thought of in terms of age, or he's twining with Raph thus has an equal amount of social power so Raph can't use it to spite him and Donnie seemingly doesn't fight Leo, or not directly. Him following Raph and Mikey instead of just observing with Leo like they're suppose to be doing could be seen as indirect fighting.
Of course 07 Donnie overall has a coat of apathy towards the world, something we see accidently jaded down by Splinter's punishing of him and Mikey when they stopped crime in the prequel comics. So Donnie avoiding all age roles through sheer indifference, and his brothers not giving him that role seeing that it does nothing, would not be out of character.
This also got me thinking about age roles in wider TMNT canon as well.
Such as how in 2012 I remember how big brother is a role that bends and nearly breaks Leo while Mikey is constantly called little brother but I can't remember any time age roles were used in reference to either Dee or Raph.
Of course I do not know 2012 as well as 07 or 03 so feel free to counter this statement.
Meanwhile in full contest 03 has No References to age At All, not even in the Japanese dub. This continues to reinforce how the 03 family tend to take things as a group and help each other out(another reason why Leo's descent into his season 4 behavior is concerning and not the norm for his character) rather than having any power dynamics or parentification within their group. This of course goes along with 03's focus on outer group threats rather than inner group ones.
