The Eldest of the Orphans: An interview with co-creator of Gashlycrumb Orphanage
Last weekend Michele and I sat down with one of the co-creators of Gashlycrumb Orphanage to pick her brain about prop construction, choreography, and the evolution of their script. Lacy Katherine Campbell recently migrated to Seattle, but was back in Chicago for work. One of the most benevolent souls I've met: she carved out an hour to chat with us at Filter Coffee Shop in Wicker Park:
Scott Ray Merchant: So letâs talk a little bit about the origin of this show. You cite Edward Gorey as an inspiration, can you tell us when you first encountered his work?
Lacy Katherine Campbell: Oh, man. It would have been tenth or eleventh grade that I met someone who would later become my best friend. Who totally opened my eyes to all sorts of weird- basically anything âart-yâ and that was a huge period of learning and I absolutely loved it. It finally gave me a place to lock into as a weirdo in my small, little town.
LKC: Denton, Texas. And so yeah, that was during high school. Â And when I went to college, I had a Gashlycrumb Tinies poster in my dorm.
SRM: So youâre a longtime weirdo?
SRM: So how do you feel that world of the macabre intersects with the world of clown theatre? OR Â I suppose, when was the first time that you started to observe dark material through a very lighthearted lens?
LKC: Well without getting too into it, I have a history of depression and mental illness in high school and I think itâs like anything else, you have to find a way to overcome those things and I was just sort of like: okay, this is the way Iâm going to handle this. So I guess thatâs where I, as an artist, started fighting back. Because Iâm clearly not going to let this kill me. I willâfind a way. Itâs not hard for me to see a direct line between that and where I am now.
SRM: Can you speak a bit about the world of Gashlycrumb Orphanage and how it intersects with Goreyâs âGashlycrumb Tinies?â It seems like they exist in the same universe but youâve created something completely new.
LKC: The name is actually just an homage. That name really came later on, after we had already been developing stories of the Orphanage. The origin came when I was shooting some photos with Joe Mazza from Brave Lux Inc. and he actually came up with this idea of doing these black-ringed eyes. And we started playing around together and he came up with this character, Mademoiselle Baggare, in red nose. And I liked it a lot and the photos were very cool but then Joeâs plate got full with a lot of other projects. And I really wanted to make a show, Jeff really wanted to make a show. So Jeff and I decided to work together and we initially approached Joe about like- âHey, how would you feel if I took Mademoiselle Baggare and developed it in another show?â and Joe very beautifully and eloquently said âWell I kind of feel like that was something you and I created together.â Which is totally right. In fact, he had all the instincts on that project and I was following his lead. So from there, it was like âWell would it be okay if we kept the eyes? And sort of go down another road?â And Joe, of course, being the gracious human that he is was like âOh, Please, sure!â I think he wanted to protect the name and a few of the other visual trademarks, we had shot some videos that he scripted and Joe put a lot of work into that. It was a good lesson in shared creative ownership. And Joe became such an incredible supporter of Gashlycrumb, and it means so much to us that he loves the show as much as he does.
SRM: Conversely, thatâs a great point as it relates to our taking over this project that you and Jeff worked very hard on. So what do you feel that you took away from that interaction with Joe the most?
LKC: Not being afraid to say that I worked very hard on this and all I have is the idea. I mean, no oneâs going to have money from this, I mean: if only. Weâre not worried about you guys getting rich and stealing millions of dollars from this idea, but we put so much heart into it - and time, and soul. Itâs like a baby. You really want to make sure that it grows up right and that it becomes the best little baby it can be.
SRM: Thatâs interesting, that when we approached you and Jeff about this idea of taking the reigns of this show that it really was like asking someone to take care of their baby. The initial reaction is flattery but then thereâs sort of a brass tacks discussion to see what our true intentions are and if weâre equipped to watch over your baby.
LKC: I think eventually- what is the baby equivalent of doing this show for a while? We have to just let it go off and be itself. And I donât think you guys are going to run it into the ground, but if you run it into the ground then you do! And thatâs okay! We can always pick it back up, youâre not going to break it. But what IS going to happen is that youâre going to bring really interesting ideas and views and youâre going to ask questions that make us think more about it and make me a better artist, you know? Just having to answer things that make me look at it in a new light. Having those moments only can make it better.
SRM: One of the reasons I love this show so much is that it brings together brilliant poetic writing with the raw emotional availability of clown. Can you speak a little bit about what the building of this show was like between you and Jeff
LKC- Jeff very much brought the raw energy and emotional availability- so we would improvise these scenarios together and then write down what we liked. I would usually take them home and sort of wordsmith them then I would send a script with my proposals then we would back and forth a little bit. We did a lot of this:  (and this is SO helpful to me) "This is a BAD idea but what I'm thinking is something like this..." and it was totally fine for the other person to say "Yes, you're right, that's terrible BUT now I know what you're thinking." Creating a brand new show, it always feels like the road is somewhere in this general area-- we'd go down wrong paths but it would eventually find its way. It's like going down a tree in reverse. There are so many small branches that you have to hit before you get more and more solid.
SRM: When you started the work, I had seen you around Chicago perform smaller bits of the show. At that point in time, did you know you were building a full show?
LKC: We built it as we went. We didnât think we would make a full show so quickly. We thought we would make these characters and just create a world that they could live in. We started a backlog of a thousand stories that we could possibly tell. We would come up with those ideas within the framework we'd established. Pivot Arts festival asked us: "Would you like to perform a full show in May?" and we were like, "Well, you don't say no to that." But we always envisioned it as this episodic thing. What we didn't anticipate is that people would always expect consistency. People would always want to see Sophronia- and they'd be kind of upset if they didn't get to and that we were doing something new.
SRM: --people coming back, and bringing their friends to see what they loved?
LKC- What a terrible problem to have, right? That was the other thing- with every different episode we made, as I saw it as "This is what I could do with THIS visual choice" and it's such a great opportunity to stretch those wings or flex those muscles or whatever  - but for a minimalist show eventually it can get out of hand with physical stuff.
SRM: There's so much care that the characters take with the audience. And that's what people take home.
Michele Stine: Not all audience members want to be engaged with, how did you deal with that?
LKC: Well it's low participation, we'd make it pretty clear that you don't have to say anything, you don't have to do anything: I'm just going to say this to you. If anyone was really sweating it, I'd direct it more to the house and give them their artifact after telling the audience their story.Â
SRM: The immersive nature of this show is super low key and I've noticed that people can kind of choose their level of commitment.
LKC: That was the whole thing: treat everyone with love and respect.
SRM: You really bring the audience into a sense of belonging and everyone feels like theyâre on the same team at the end. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that sense of belonging.
LKC: That is what I want. More than anything else. And that is-- from deep in the heart of Lacy. Never feeling like I belonged, never feeling wanted. I wanted to feel welcome somewhere and that I was -like- unconditionally just OKAY and that I wouldn't get booted, or found out or say something stupid, and be hated. So that just came from the question: "What do I want more than anything else? I want to belong." So that was the gift that I wanted to give to everyone else and that was what I wanted to hear.
SRM: People always want to stick around afterward, there's a certain sense of connection once they do belong, and they want to talk to you.
LKC: Absolutely, they start making up their own stories about themselves and each other using the names we give them, so that's really powerful. it makes you ask: How many people have you affected? Maybe only one, maybe two, but who cares? All that really matters is that one.