scary plural in your wifi

formally known as pluraltv a person who is a guy & a gal & several other people (bodily an adult!) the edited plural rings in our icon are by @cytochrome-symbolz!

[aroplural]

ceefax, 23 y/o, it/they/any if we know each other. the queerest, most eldritch plural known to humankind

we originally had a long ass pinned here but actually fuck that. we're just vibing. activity is sproradic but we do be here

[x-rds]

Hi! I have a question about the description you gave of the term “alterhuman” on the phasmovore blog. Some are speculating on your intentions in including starseeds in the alterhuman definition, but since you’re still active on tumblr I thought, why not just ask?

Starseeds are anti-semitic/Nazis (https://www.philosophyforlife.org/blog/starseeds-nazis-in-space) so people are using your inclusion of starseeds as an excuse to exclude endogenic systems from the definition of alterhuman because “endos are just as harmful as starseeds”.

I just wanted to know your thoughts on this, not tryna accuse you of anything (/genuine). Sorry to pull you into this whole syscourse stuff!

Heya! Thanks for the ask! I really appreciate you reaching out.

Re: Starseeds: The term alterhuman was coined... ten? years ago now? And at the time, while I'm sure some circles were aware of potential issues with the concept of starseeds as you share, at the time the term was something used a bit more broadly, especially by divine and extraterrestrial identified individuals. I was not part of the starseed community, but I followed a lot of those who identified with the term on social media/especially Tumblr, as well as kept up with posts by self-identified (at the time) starseeds on various otherkin forums. I don't think most of those folks had an understanding of those roots of the term and instead were using it to describe a type of identity that we have other words for today.

I do think at the time I was on the fence a bit about it because I didn't have much info about it, but from the experiences I had it was describing something else. Perhaps a better way to phrase it now is "those with identities related to divinity or extraterrestrials."

I'm not the arbiter of what is or isn't alterhuman, but the idea of the term was not "here's a bunch of groups, by name, who are allowed", and more "hey I noticed a lot of groups of those with overlapping identities are fighting each other over stupid shit even though a lot of what they say and feel seem to be really similar, I wish there was some term that people could use as an umbrella to refer to their shared experiences rather than get mad at each other over precise terminology". I don't think that antisemitism is very conducive to understanding each other and our similarities and meaningful differences, so, if I were to remake the original post today, I would not include a concept like that. The original post was admittedly a frustrated reaction to infighting and I didn't, like, vet it with anyone else because I was annoyed and pretty much immediately after disappeared to go do college classes and came back a year later really confused to hear that people had actually taken to it.

That said... while I try to avoid syscourse here, I am not opposed to being clear when I have to be: the entire point of "alterhuman" is to have a term to unite those with similar experiences which fall outside of the socially accepted concept of humanity. Endogenic exclusion is inherently opposite to that idea. I've in many places and many ways gone on and on about my opinion on syscourse, but - while I understand the pain and frustration of disordered systems (we have DID, and are traumagenic, in case anyone is unaware,) there is no universe where "cruelty against Jews" is the same as "having a similar experience to a psychological disorder but with different symptoms".

But if there is one thing I have learned in all the years since the term alterhuman was created, it's this: while you can give others endless tools to connect and understand each other and their experiences, both similar and disparate, no terminology will ever reach the people who want to draw a line between themselves and others. "Endogenic" and "Traumagenic" exist because the terms that existed beforehand were not considered appropriate, and so "better" terms were created to help the community get along. "Alterhuman" was created because otherkin and therians and plurals and fictionkin etc etc were all fighting each other over terminology. Back then I barely ever saw anti-endo sentiments - I'm sure they existed, but not nearly like they do now. I'm not surprised people are trying to use starseeds being listed in the alterhuman coining post that I wrote in a frustrated huff listing any communities I could think of off the top of my head as I went to close tumblr for the night and go do my homework as a way to excise people - that sort of aggressive "us vs them"-ism was bound to crop up anyways.

I suppose, to those who are using the inclusion of starseeds to be exclusionary, maybe consider the following discussion questions:

What was the social landscape of what we now call the alterhuman community like at the time of the post's publishing?

What do you think the author's intention was when listing a wide range of communities and ideas, and do you think that the list was meant to be exhaustive, complete, or otherwise?

Why might a 19 year old college student not be aware of the intricacies of a till-then non-unified collection of identities?

Do you think my friends being scared of experiencing violence when existing in public while visibly Jewish is equivocal to someone saying they think they have more than one person in their head even though a doctor didn't give them the OK to think that?

Actually forget all the other discussion questions and answer the last one. If you answer wrong, I will become the evil alter.

Anyways. Back to you, who asked: Thank you for asking and I hope that maybe sheds some context on the post!

[crabussy]

got an ask arguing against my thoughts on normalising systems as a variation of the human experience, and it was very politely worded but I deleted it before I could think of a response (oops. regret!) HOWEVER I do still want to respond, because it was clearly coming from a place of concern! I do think it's important to have these discussions as a community, but if system discourse makes you feel bad, maybe skip this post [:

the main issue the asker had was that normalising it would make people think it wasn't a disorder. discussions around that aside, I think my existence being accepted as part of the human experience is important, even if it results in some people thinking I have no issues because of it.

I would much rather people mistakenly think systems have a magically problem-free existence than the alternative, which is people thinking I live in constant misery and need to be saved/fixed/cured etc. the first option makes people more receptive to explanations, anyway! my efforts to normalise plurality on here have led to many curious questions about the struggles I face, which I'm happy to answer.

functional plurality IS possible (I got there! took years but it IS a possibility with the right tools and support) and I like my life the way it is. autism is ALSO classified as a disorder and there are huge efforts to normalise it for the same reason! and sure, it's resulted in some people thinking autism is struggle-free, but the larger impact has been acceptance and understanding, which is a net positive in my eyes.

I think maybe some of the disagreement comes from the word I'm using? where you might interpret "normalise" as meaning “strip it of the nitty gritty issues and present it as a palatable experience” when I mean it as “destigmatise these experiences and portray systems as ordinary people with an unusual mode of existence, instead of as a horror movie trope that needs to be fixed or suppressed”

I hope this helps clarify my intentions and beliefs on the matter!

[courtkossai]

there is sometimes sentiment that if member of collective miss someone from home - whether view that home to be real world or wholly fictional creation - collective should work to will that person in .

this post is not meant as hatred towards that sentiment , but just want to offer shoutout to collectives where this is not feasible .

some collectives find that willed members do not sustain presence , too prone to dormancy or collapse . some might find that even willed members who sustain differ from memory , might not share same relationship , might not even want to .

in spiritual collectives , world connections can not necessarily be used on purpose to just pull someone along - this can be especially true for those who arrive after death in particular . several among courtiers here deeply miss friends , but there is no way to make those friends appear . any attempts to will might feel like false puppet , more uncomfortable than to continue life without .

creation and willpower can be legitimate tools , but not infallible ones . there will always be chance of difference , and there may even be chance of loss . even in plurality , acceptance may be only way to deal with grief .

[aroplural]

if it's okay for me to add, i also feel like sometimes systems who will people their members miss into the system have a bad habit of dehumanising the results of that, only viewing them as someone who can cheer someone up or fill a hole and not as an actual person with their own wants and life.

obviously, i don't think willing members is bad (i know a lot of people who do it with the proper care and respect to those who are the results of that, and we've even done it ourselves before), but i just think sometimes systems need to step back and assess why they're doing this and if they're treating those willed properly.

and it's important for us as a community to have these discussions more.

[aroplural]

pluraltv > aroplural

[courtkossai]

plural ask game ~ for large collectives

some ask games have prompts to ask about every member of collective , but beyond even 20 those can be really unwieldy , let alone when reach hundreds , thousands , and beyond . 

these questions gear for collectives with hundreds-plus populations , though some can still apply for any size , and write in way that aim to be framework and origin neutral . this is for any who would like to participate , no matter type of experiences :)

as always , use discretion as to which answers should be public , or prefer as private journal prompts - even if that might be all !

about general population :

📰 newspaper - if countable , what is population ? how much of that population can others expect to encounter ?

📊 bar graph - do population experience sudden booms of growth or loss , or is change more steady ?

📥 inbox - how much do collective record about population , and with what tools ? is there requirement to get entry , such as certain amount of front time or personal elaboration ? 

🧮 abacus - what is overall feeling on size ? hope to get smaller , bigger , or remain at current size ? 

about member experiences :

🎈balloon - have any experience with members that express less development or identity than others , such as fragments , walk-in silhouettes , and precursors to animism or creation ?

🎁 present - if answer to balloon is yes : have any particular methods to help develop individuality or take root as part of collective ? is there any method which hurt more than help ?

🪆 matryoshka doll - have any experience with duplications or doubles , where multiple separate members share source / mirror ? 

🛎 bell - have any experience with snapshots , where multiple separate members embody life stages of one shared source / mirror ? 

🪞 mirror - do source-based words such as fictive , chrómtive , and aesthetive get much use around collective ? why or why not ?

🖼 painting - do origin-based words such as walk-in , split , and animaborn get much use around collective ? why or why not ?

about experiences of front and switch :

🌧 rain cloud - do collective switch frequently , infrequently , or not at all ? if switch is usually possible , is there ever time where anyone get stuck in front ? 

☂️ umbrella - do collective have control over switches ? if so , how much ? 

🌊 great wave - is there any large consistent group of fronters or front observers , or do most only like to show up once or twice every so often ? 

🌥 sun behind cloud - how many tend to be in or around front at once ? is front more often blurry or clear ?

🌈 rainbow - do front contain some sort of mask , vessel member , or inherent function which grant sense of unity ? if so , how do this feel when contrast with fronters' individual identity - erasure , blanket , or something else ?

about collective life :

🥅 goal - what is process behind collective presentation , hobbies , and life choices ? who get more or less say in these matters ? do any areas of life allow total freedom ?

🪃 boomerang - what is process behind compromise when , inevitably , not everyone is happy with choices ? what about when compromise is not possible ?

🥍 lacrosse - have any items which belong to only one member or small group of members , or is everything shared ? is there process behind discard shared items such as vote , or can anyone discard ?

🎼 musical staff - what is communication like , both internal and external ? what tools help or hinder ?

🤿 snorkel - is there any offline space in which collective choose to be open about plurality ? if so , how much do others know about population ? 

about experiences of headspaces , otherworlds , and other collective spaces :

🌻 sunflower - how many spaces do this collective experience ? if none , is this something that wish to change ? if one or more , what is preferred term ? 

🍀 four leaf clover - how large is each one , or how large would ideal space be ? how much information enter records , and with what tools ?

🪷 lotus - do certain groups belong to certain spaces ? is this by choice to form communities , function of how brain put order , necessity such as mermaids live in water , or something else ? 

🦊 fox - is there wildlife , or wish for there to be ? if so , what kinds ? would collective term these as fragments , NPCs , something else , or nothing at all ? 

about community experiences :

🌋 volcano - what is something other people should never say to large collectives ?

🏕 campground - what is question that want other people to ask ?

🏰 castle - what is something that wish for other people to understand about large collectives ?

🏝 island - what would be one piece of advice which give to other collectives , large or small ?

open questions :

🎨 paint palette - what terms help with comprehension and expression of experiences , in any area ?

🎤 microphone - is there anything else which wish to say , but questions did not give room for ?

[aroplural]

I just realized we don't actually have said lab area/group noted down in our records outside of a quick map with no notes on who's part of it. Uh. Not my problem!

[aroplural]

Lotus Emoji? Don't have it </3

🪷 lotus - do certain groups belong to certain spaces ? is this by choice to form communities , function of how brain put order , necessity such as mermaids live in water , or something else ? 

I'm going to continue off this ask a bit here, since the subjects are connected. But yeah, our system generally seperates areas of the innerworld based off various different groups. There used to be a lot of seperation between those areas, but nowadays, while physically there can still appear to be a large distance between areas, members can usually get to other areas pretty easily now! Our innerworld is somewhat liminal when it comes to distances, you can walk 100 miles in 5 minutes if you really want to.

As as example of how our innerworld works with groups: One large group is situated in an alien city in a pocket dimension in the void. In that city is a large laboratory, which also functions as a smaller group that the people there are part of. People in that group can go wherever, hell most people part of that lab do not live there lol, but that area is considered their area for all intents and purposes and they feel inherently connected to it.

[aroplural]

🌻 sunflower - how many spaces do this collective experience ? if none , is this something that wish to change ? if one or more , what is preferred term ? 

@casuallyplural

(I'm assuming by spaces this means stuff like sisasystems? If I'm wrong please correct me!)

I will be so real: Currently we're going through a big shakeup and we're not entirely sure what's going on in here lol. Right now though, what we have recorded is:

3 areas (sidesystems), which all have their own innerworld

7 subsystems, which all function in various different ways

3 other groups in the bigger areas, that aren't subsystems or anything similar but are still worth noting down and listing who's part of them for various reasons

Those areas are all interconnected by a big void (which is a sentispace), which shifts and changes depending on various things. Like I said, we're currently recording a bunch of shifts and changes in our system so this is all subject to change really

[aroplural]

🏝 island - what would be one piece of advice which give to other collectives , large or small ?

@casuallyplural

ahem.

don't share information about other members without knowing they're okay with it first.

especially more sensitive information. like. please think before posting. there's a lot of assuming (especially from hosts im afraid) that it's just entirely fine to say or share anything publicly about other members, and its just like... ask first. have a proper conversation about what members are comfortable with strangers on the internet knowing about each individual. please.

[aroplural]

🌥 sun behind cloud - how many tend to be in or around front at once ? is front more often blurry or clear ?

🏰 castle - what is something that wish for other people to understand about large collectives ?

:3c -Mortuary @aghori-mhori-mei

Sun behind cloud: Two to three usually! It's very rare that we have just one guy by themself, but we do experience not knowing who's in co-front somewhat frequently? Right now in general we've been experiencing being blurry more frequently due to Circumstances, but even outside of that, because of how we function as a fragment-heavy modular system, it's just common for us to know there's other people around but not know who they are.

Castle: Two things actually:

Most of the time, plurans in polyplural systems want to be seen as individuals and treated as such! We've frankly felt like we're treated differently than smaller systems in many spaces, where people treat us as essentially one person and do not bother to care about us as individuals, despite treating members in smaller systems much better. It's so frustrating and tiring, I just need people to actually try to put some fucking effort in here.

Large systems are absolutely not one size fits all. We all have vastly different experiences, and it's important to not treat us all like we're the same. Don't assume one big system works the same as another one you're familiar with basically!

[aroplural]

Wait we can finally answer those asks now

[courtkossai]

plural ask game ~ for large collectives

some ask games have prompts to ask about every member of collective , but beyond even 20 those can be really unwieldy , let alone when reach hundreds , thousands , and beyond . 

these questions gear for collectives with hundreds-plus populations , though some can still apply for any size , and write in way that aim to be framework and origin neutral . this is for any who would like to participate , no matter type of experiences :)

as always , use discretion as to which answers should be public , or prefer as private journal prompts - even if that might be all !

about general population :

📰 newspaper - if countable , what is population ? how much of that population can others expect to encounter ?

📊 bar graph - do population experience sudden booms of growth or loss , or is change more steady ?

📥 inbox - how much do collective record about population , and with what tools ? is there requirement to get entry , such as certain amount of front time or personal elaboration ? 

🧮 abacus - what is overall feeling on size ? hope to get smaller , bigger , or remain at current size ? 

about member experiences :

🎈balloon - have any experience with members that express less development or identity than others , such as fragments , walk-in silhouettes , and precursors to animism or creation ?

🎁 present - if answer to balloon is yes : have any particular methods to help develop individuality or take root as part of collective ? is there any method which hurt more than help ?

🪆 matryoshka doll - have any experience with duplications or doubles , where multiple separate members share source / mirror ? 

🛎 bell - have any experience with snapshots , where multiple separate members embody life stages of one shared source / mirror ? 

🪞 mirror - do source-based words such as fictive , chrómtive , and aesthetive get much use around collective ? why or why not ?

🖼 painting - do origin-based words such as walk-in , split , and animaborn get much use around collective ? why or why not ?

about experiences of front and switch :

🌧 rain cloud - do collective switch frequently , infrequently , or not at all ? if switch is usually possible , is there ever time where anyone get stuck in front ? 

☂️ umbrella - do collective have control over switches ? if so , how much ? 

🌊 great wave - is there any large consistent group of fronters or front observers , or do most only like to show up once or twice every so often ? 

🌥 sun behind cloud - how many tend to be in or around front at once ? is front more often blurry or clear ?

🌈 rainbow - do front contain some sort of mask , vessel member , or inherent function which grant sense of unity ? if so , how do this feel when contrast with fronters' individual identity - erasure , blanket , or something else ?

about collective life :

🥅 goal - what is process behind collective presentation , hobbies , and life choices ? who get more or less say in these matters ? do any areas of life allow total freedom ?

🪃 boomerang - what is process behind compromise when , inevitably , not everyone is happy with choices ? what about when compromise is not possible ?

🥍 lacrosse - have any items which belong to only one member or small group of members , or is everything shared ? is there process behind discard shared items such as vote , or can anyone discard ?

🎼 musical staff - what is communication like , both internal and external ? what tools help or hinder ?

🤿 snorkel - is there any offline space in which collective choose to be open about plurality ? if so , how much do others know about population ? 

about experiences of headspaces , otherworlds , and other collective spaces :

🌻 sunflower - how many spaces do this collective experience ? if none , is this something that wish to change ? if one or more , what is preferred term ? 

🍀 four leaf clover - how large is each one , or how large would ideal space be ? how much information enter records , and with what tools ?

🪷 lotus - do certain groups belong to certain spaces ? is this by choice to form communities , function of how brain put order , necessity such as mermaids live in water , or something else ? 

🦊 fox - is there wildlife , or wish for there to be ? if so , what kinds ? would collective term these as fragments , NPCs , something else , or nothing at all ? 

about community experiences :

🌋 volcano - what is something other people should never say to large collectives ?

🏕 campground - what is question that want other people to ask ?

🏰 castle - what is something that wish for other people to understand about large collectives ?

🏝 island - what would be one piece of advice which give to other collectives , large or small ?

open questions :

🎨 paint palette - what terms help with comprehension and expression of experiences , in any area ?

🎤 microphone - is there anything else which wish to say , but questions did not give room for ?

[tlirsgender]

Being an evil doppelganger has to be so fucked up like imagine meeting a better version of yourself. Some chain of events going differently that led to "you" being a better person in a way you can never achieve. Personally I'd have no other option but to try and kill them

[tlirsgender]

It's always "oh no my evil clone or twin or whatever is trying to kill me" and never How is my evil clone? Says a lot about society

[tlirsgender]

Me, crashing the fuck out: you think you're better than me? You think you're fucking better than me???

My good clone, dodging a glass: I mean like objectively yeah

[vexheart]

This

[mosslingg]

@funnier-as-a-system

[funnier-as-a-system]

[image description: glowing blue text floating above tile in an unknown, dark location. It is shown at an angle slightly away from the viewer, and reads, in all uppercase: "You will survive, but you will become someone else." In the bottom right corner is the text: Omar Hussain ./ end description]

[tashaneva]

sometimes i wish my brain had a switch off button or something

[slightly-sigilant]

Plural Experiences Ask Game

I keep seeing people say that they wish the plural community would focus less on labels and slapfighting and more on the experience of living as plural, so I decided to make an ask game about it. All systems welcome to participate as long as you respect the spirit of the post and don't drag discourse onto it. Feel free to copy and paste this wherever with or without credit, a bunch of these questions were lifted from other places anyway.

I tried to pick or at least phrase questions to be as inclusive as possible, but I've almost certainly missed things - plurality is diverse and my system only experiences a small corner of it. I encourage people to make their own ask games!

🌱 (seedling) - How did you discover you were plural?

💐 (bouquet) - What analogy would you use to describe your system to a curious stranger?

🌸 (cherry blossom) - What things were major influences upon your system? (e.g. life events both positive and negative; meaningful media; other identities)

🌻 (sunflower) - If you can communicate internally, what is that like? If you can't communicate internally, do you have other methods for communicating with each other?

🍁 (maple leaf) - If you can switch, what is that like? If you can't switch, is it something that you're interested in?

🪴 (potted plant) - If you have a headspace, what is that like? If you don't have a headspace, where do system members normally hang out?

🍂 (fallen leaves) - Do you experience yourselves as individuals, as parts of a whole, or some secret other thing?

🌴 (palm tree) - Is there anything that you do to spend time together?

🌿 (herb) - What tools, if any, do you use to navigate life as a plural system?

🌲 (evergreen tree) - What kinds of relationships (familial, romantic, platonic, etc) exist between members of the system?

🌵 (cactus) - Do system members have disagreements with each other? How do you resolve them, if so?

🌺 (hibiscus) - Is there a "common" plural experience that you don't experience?

🌾 (sheaf of rice) - What does your average day look like? How does plurality intersect with it?

🎍 (kadomatsu) - Do you decorate your space or keep mementos of/for yourself and other system members? (e.g. perfumes, clothes for specific people, art, jewelry)

🍎 (apple) - What advice would you give to a singlet looking to be an ally?

🍀 (four leaf clover) - What advice would you give to a newly selves-discovered system?

🌹 (rose) - Is plurality, overall, a net positive or a negative for you? (Or neither?) If given the opportunity to become singlet (whether through fusion or everyone getting their own body), would you take it?