im going to be nice

terfs, radfems and questioning welcome. im trans and sympathetic to the cause of radical feminism. i will answer your questions politely, and listen to your concerns. pfp is a realistic medical model of a uterus.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[atmospherings]

trans ppl can do whatever they want as adults but 1) there are kids medically transitioning, kids cannot consent 2) dysphoria is a mental illness and we shouldnt let any mentally ill person make dangerous/risky permanent decisions like elective cosmetic surgery 3) trans healthcare is under researched and shilled as always effective when its highly experimental and leaves patients to deal w lifelong medicalization

idk what kind of shit youve been reading but radfems dont support the fact that the "healthcare" endangers everyone. its unethical and plain evil imo. its selling a so called panacea for profit when its just the 21st century's version of conversion "therapy" torture. and no transitioning doesnt alleviate dysphoria, therapy does and a lot of ppl who transition experiences worsening dysphoria bc dysphoria is a mental illness caused by homophobia or misogyny

so yeah sorry but the trans rights movement obscures information and refuses true informed consent so calling it a cult isnt even wrong altho i will concede its an antagonistic thing to say and it doesnt help dysphoric gnc gay men or dysphoric women embrace themselves at all

and abortion is a necessary medical procedure transition isnt

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Transition is medically necessary in many cases.

Kids absolutely can consent please look up Gillick competence.

Your ableism is showing, mentally ill people shouldn't be allowed to have bodily autonomy???? what a take.

Trans healthcare has been around since the 1920s. Regret rates are at 1%. Trans healthcare reduces suicidality in teenagers by 40%.

Sources for these are in other reblogs.

You sound like you don't know what you're talking about.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

op define bodily autonomy

[friendlymathematician]

if bodily autonomy is "The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want", why is it wrong to use my body to tell penis-people they're not women no matter how many cosmetic surgeries they have and to get the fuck out of women's spaces?

[femmesandhoney]

Next argument by op at 11: registered sex offenders can take a refreshing brisk walk around the local elementary school otherwise you're violating their bodily autonomy by saying they can't

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

a lot of registered sex offenders are queer and trans people, because the sex offender registry has been used as a tool for oppressing queer and trans people for decades. Simply being queer or trans in public used to be enough to get you on the SOR without ever inappropriately touching anyone.

Like, punitive justice is a massive heap of garbage. Restorative justice would have an actual sex offender spend meaningful time with people and make genuine connections and perhaps not be around kids unsupervised but yeah, even convicts should get bodily autonomy and the punitive justice system routinely denies them this.

Like, come ON. I thought you people were RADICAL.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

op define bodily autonomy

[friendlymathematician]

if bodily autonomy is "The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want", why is it wrong to use my body to tell penis-people they're not women no matter how many cosmetic surgeries they have and to get the fuck out of women's spaces?

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Because that's bigotry. Bigotry isn't usually acceptable.

Them existing is not harming you.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

op define bodily autonomy

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

No, cus thats infringing on someone else's bodily autonomy.

Worse if you enforce it: What are you going to do? Pick out people who look "too male" for your liking, have them show birth certificates or bare their genitals? That's a clear violation of that person's bodily autonomy.

Again, them Literally Just Existing is not a threat to you.

I mean, of course you can say it, and you clearly are, but it's a shitty thing to say and do, and there might be consequences, such as people will think you're transphobic and not like you anymore.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

"Accept males in your spaces for their bodily autonomy. No, you don't get to have your own bodily autonomy."

Mask off moment.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

You have the same bodily autonomy to be there.

You have the bodily autonomy to leave, if you are uncomfortable.

You have the bodily autonomy to confront "males" in your spaces but it will not be a good look for you. At worst, you may be assaulting someone.

You have the bodily autonomy to do whatever you want but discomfort is not harm. You being uncomfortable does not negate the bodily autonomy of other people

God you are thick.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

You are no longer nice. :/ Was hoping for a bit more good faith here.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

op define bodily autonomy

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

First result on google:

Bodily autonomy is a right granted to every person to have the right to control what are the things to be or not done to their own bodies. When each person has full bodily autonomy, they’re not only empowered to decide things when it comes to their health and future – without constraints or any control by other people – they also have the support and resources that are needed to eloquently carry out all the decisions they would make.

Second result on google:

Bodily autonomy is about the right to make decisions over one’s own life and future. It is about being empowered to make informed choices. These are universal values.

Third result on google:

Bodily autonomy means my body is for me; my body is my own. It’s about power, and it’s about agency. It’s about choice, and it’s about dignity.

Bodily autonomy is the foundation for gender equality, and above all, it’s a fundamental right.

So we have several fundamental things here:

"My body, my choice" - the right to do whatever you want with your body.

"empowered to make informed choices" - like most trans affirming healthcare. There's exceptions but there's shitty doctors everywhere who will not inform their patients properly. That's a violation of bodily autonomy, but a separate issue from transness.

"It's about agency, it's about dignity" - it means everyone should be able to make choices of their own accord, and live a dignified life. Being excluded from public toilets is pretty undignified. It's a violation of bodily autonomy. It will mean many trans people will simply not be able to go outside. That's undignified. It's a violation of bodily autonomy.

Does that help?

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

apparently not because it didn’t seem to help you. words and concepts have meanings, and they mean specific things, and the foundation of language and communication is agreeance on those definitions, but then again tras have demonstrated time and time again that you really don’t care about that

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hahaha, please show me where I went against the several definitions of bodily autonomy that I just pulled up. Those words have meanings and the meaning of bodily autonomy includes "Let trans people do whatever they want with their bodies".

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

I mean yes thats quite literally what it means??? And personal freedom??? Do whatever you want all the time, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. (but also inevitably people hurt others and that in itself isnt going to stop them but thats why we have laws and consequences)

Are you saying trans people Literally Just Existing is somehow hurting anyone? Please explain.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

I never said that lol. You're putting words in everyone's mouths here.

A trans woman "literally just existing" in a female only space where women are in various states of undress or are vulnerable IS hurting women. I should not be forced to see a penis in a change room.

Why is 1% of the population's comfort more important than the safety of 50% of the population?

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

I'm sorry but your penisphobia shouldn't be everyone's problem either. I know SO MANY cis women who have none (0) problem with sharing locker rooms with trans people whatsoever. You're assuming all women think like you: I assure you, they Do Not.

And yeah, no, being scared of seeing icky wicky peenus is in no way comparable to being completely excluded from public life, which is what you're gunning for here.

And anyway, if the chance of seeing a penis in a locker room is only 1% or less, why do you care so much? Has this been a big problem for you personally? Do tell.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Yes, I believe in bodily autonomy.

Bodily autonomy isn't absolute, though. Just because I believe in bodily autonomy doesn't mean I agree with what you choose to do to your body.

If you want to cut off your own arm, you have the freedom to do so, but that doesn't mean people won't try to stop you or at the very least disagree with what you're doing.

Your entire post reads as a complete misunderstanding of radfem beliefs. Just because we criticize trans medicalization and plastic surgery in general doesn't mean we don't think you can choose to do it. If you're an adult, you can choose to have whatever plastic surgery, body modification, or tattoo you want.

My only issue is when children are involved. I disagree with children being able to have life-altering medical procedures done to them without fully understanding the consequences.

I don't think trans people are brainwashed necessarily. I don't care what you believe. If you're an adult and you want to get a life-altering medically unnecessary procedure done on your healthy body, that's your perogative.

You can't compare plastic surgery to FGM or reproductive rights. The right to keep your genitalia intact (or to stay alive in some cases) versus the right to surgically alter your genitalia for your own satisfaction isn't equivalent whatsoever.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Again, trans treatment is medically fully necessary in the majority of cases. Dysphoria can be debilitating and life threatening. I don't like it when people die needlessly. Lack of trans healthcare causes deaths. Sorry to break it to you. It's entirely necessary in many, many cases.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding radical feminism. I think you have some really good points, actually, about how the beauty industry wants us all to spend all of the money on appearance enhancing products and procedures. About how people are being told their bodies are wrong and they have to change this. About female issues that affect many women worldwide and a lot of society seems to think plastering #girlboss on everything will somehow solve this. I think you have some very good points.

Ultimately though, your goal is to make it illegal for trans people (of certain ages, or sometimes entirely) to medically transition. That's going to kill people. Gender criticals in the UK and US are actively working with conservative lawmakers to basically outlaw transness. That's, that's fascism. They want us to just not exist and your ilk are happy to cooperate with raging misogynists cus you have the shared goal of eradicating transness. There's something so very fucking wrong with that.

I think children deserve bodily autonomy too. I think surgeries on intersex children are fucking abhorrent and breaking a lot of consent and trust and of course, the bodily autonomy of a child, often newborn. That's the issue I'm worried about, far more than doctors giving teenagers puberty blockers. I think you overestimate how much trans-affirming care is offered to kids. And even then, stuff like hormones and surgeries are only going to be available to teens, I've not heard of anyone younger than 14 going on hormones.

14 year olds have a pretty good idea of who they are, and if they're suicidal cus they're trans and there's no option other than letting them transition, then of course transition is the better option, over a dead child.

Children deserve bodily autonomy too.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

You still don't get it. You say you don't misunderstand radfem beliefs, but then reiterate your point about us wanting to "ban medical transition" when I literally just said that is false.

Gender critical people aren't radfems. As evidenced by how many conservative men identify as "gender critical."

Saying that you need to give your child cross sex hormones or they will die is a false dichotomy designed to scare parents into making a rash decision. What's the problem with waiting until your child comes of age before they medically transition?

It's really weird to be so adamant about this point specifically, and then say I'm overestimating how many kids are getting this treatment. You're advocating for more kids to be given hormones, it's not relevant how many currently are being given hormones.

There are other options available to kids other than transition. Like therapy. There are no long term studies showing that child transition prevents suicide because this is a new phenomenon.

So, if you believe in children's bodily autonomy, do you think a girl could get breast implants? Or a tattoo?

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

If she wants to???? yes of course????? I know plenty of people who have gotten tattoos as teenagers and they're fine, miraculously.

Saying that you need to give your child cross sex hormones or they will die is a false dichotomy designed to scare parents into making a rash decision. What's the problem with waiting until your child comes of age before they medically transition?

The problem is that some children will die. Any children dying is too many for me. I'm sorry but there's literally been so many trans kids who have killed themselves cus they couldn't access transition and I'm not using this as a scare tactic or whatever it's literally just the truth.

A teenager will know themselves if they are at risk of suicide if they don't get treatment. They should be offered therapy, sure, but it can't be therapy aimed at "making them cis" or making them accept their body and dysphoria without ever going down the path of medical transition. We call that conversion therapy, and it's bad!

Anyway here's a study showing that transition does, in fact, reduce the risk of suicide in trans youth. Have a read.

"Notably, the study found that among young trans and nonbinary people under 18, receiving GAHT was associated with nearly 40% lower odds of having had a suicide attempt in the past year."

That's with a sample size of 34,000 trans and nonbinary youth. That's pretty significant.

Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy for LGBTQ Youth Can Help Save Lives, Study Finds

Among trans and nonbinary people under 18, receiving GAHT was associated with nearly 40% lower odds of a suicide attempt in the past year

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

op define bodily autonomy

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

No, cus thats infringing on someone else's bodily autonomy.

Worse if you enforce it: What are you going to do? Pick out people who look "too male" for your liking, have them show birth certificates or bare their genitals? That's a clear violation of that person's bodily autonomy.

Again, them Literally Just Existing is not a threat to you.

I mean, of course you can say it, and you clearly are, but it's a shitty thing to say and do, and there might be consequences, such as people will think you're transphobic and not like you anymore.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[pvysygpvysivjc-deactivated20250]

op define bodily autonomy

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

First result on google:

Bodily autonomy is a right granted to every person to have the right to control what are the things to be or not done to their own bodies. When each person has full bodily autonomy, they’re not only empowered to decide things when it comes to their health and future – without constraints or any control by other people – they also have the support and resources that are needed to eloquently carry out all the decisions they would make.

Second result on google:

Bodily autonomy is about the right to make decisions over one’s own life and future. It is about being empowered to make informed choices. These are universal values.

Third result on google:

Bodily autonomy means my body is for me; my body is my own. It’s about power, and it’s about agency. It’s about choice, and it’s about dignity.

Bodily autonomy is the foundation for gender equality, and above all, it’s a fundamental right.

So we have several fundamental things here:

"My body, my choice" - the right to do whatever you want with your body.

"empowered to make informed choices" - like most trans affirming healthcare. There's exceptions but there's shitty doctors everywhere who will not inform their patients properly. That's a violation of bodily autonomy, but a separate issue from transness.

"It's about agency, it's about dignity" - it means everyone should be able to make choices of their own accord, and live a dignified life. Being excluded from public toilets is pretty undignified. It's a violation of bodily autonomy. It will mean many trans people will simply not be able to go outside. That's undignified. It's a violation of bodily autonomy.

Does that help?

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Ah yes, bodily autonomy is being allowed to do whatever you want all the time. Very smart take.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

I mean yes thats quite literally what it means??? And personal freedom??? Do whatever you want all the time, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. (but also inevitably people hurt others and that in itself isnt going to stop them but thats why we have laws and consequences)

Are you saying trans people Literally Just Existing is somehow hurting anyone? Please explain.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

@celtyradicalfem

Is it?

One of them is a deeply necessary medical procedure which should not be withheld from people. One they usually have to access when they are in some distress, one which conservative lawmakers want to take away, cus they want to punish the people who need it.

And the other one is (not only, but also) some deeply medically necessary procedures which should not be withheld from people. Medical procedures they usually have to access when they are in some distress, which conservative lawmakers want to take away, cus they want to punish the people who need it.

Point out the difference to me? It's a matter of bodily autonomy.

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Having a medically unnecessary double mastectomy or crafting a "penis" from your forearm or crafting a "vagina" from inverting your penis is not at all comparable to an abortion. Are you taking the piss?

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

In many cases, trans treatment is very medically necessary. Look up my other reblogs of this post for more details.

In many cases, the choices are gender affirming treatment or death.

Would you prefer trans people to just die instead?

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[radfemfox4-deactivated20230703]

Yes, I believe in bodily autonomy.

Bodily autonomy isn't absolute, though. Just because I believe in bodily autonomy doesn't mean I agree with what you choose to do to your body.

If you want to cut off your own arm, you have the freedom to do so, but that doesn't mean people won't try to stop you or at the very least disagree with what you're doing.

Your entire post reads as a complete misunderstanding of radfem beliefs. Just because we criticize trans medicalization and plastic surgery in general doesn't mean we don't think you can choose to do it. If you're an adult, you can choose to have whatever plastic surgery, body modification, or tattoo you want.

My only issue is when children are involved. I disagree with children being able to have life-altering medical procedures done to them without fully understanding the consequences.

I don't think trans people are brainwashed necessarily. I don't care what you believe. If you're an adult and you want to get a life-altering medically unnecessary procedure done on your healthy body, that's your perogative.

You can't compare plastic surgery to FGM or reproductive rights. The right to keep your genitalia intact (or to stay alive in some cases) versus the right to surgically alter your genitalia for your own satisfaction isn't equivalent whatsoever.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Again, trans treatment is medically fully necessary in the majority of cases. Dysphoria can be debilitating and life threatening. I don't like it when people die needlessly. Lack of trans healthcare causes deaths. Sorry to break it to you. It's entirely necessary in many, many cases.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding radical feminism. I think you have some really good points, actually, about how the beauty industry wants us all to spend all of the money on appearance enhancing products and procedures. About how people are being told their bodies are wrong and they have to change this. About female issues that affect many women worldwide and a lot of society seems to think plastering #girlboss on everything will somehow solve this. I think you have some very good points.

Ultimately though, your goal is to make it illegal for trans people (of certain ages, or sometimes entirely) to medically transition. That's going to kill people. Gender criticals in the UK and US are actively working with conservative lawmakers to basically outlaw transness. That's, that's fascism. They want us to just not exist and your ilk are happy to cooperate with raging misogynists cus you have the shared goal of eradicating transness. There's something so very fucking wrong with that.

I think children deserve bodily autonomy too. I think surgeries on intersex children are fucking abhorrent and breaking a lot of consent and trust and of course, the bodily autonomy of a child, often newborn. That's the issue I'm worried about, far more than doctors giving teenagers puberty blockers. I think you overestimate how much trans-affirming care is offered to kids. And even then, stuff like hormones and surgeries are only going to be available to teens, I've not heard of anyone younger than 14 going on hormones.

14 year olds have a pretty good idea of who they are, and if they're suicidal cus they're trans and there's no option other than letting them transition, then of course transition is the better option, over a dead child.

Children deserve bodily autonomy too.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[chamomilechaos1999]

Also, your right to bodily autonomy is not your right to trespass on single-sex spaces.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

It's not trespassing for a woman to be in a women's space.

Just cus your definition of woman is all wonky and exclusive doesn't mean theyre not a woman, or that they don't belong there.

This line of thinking is completely unenforcable, and ultimately the goal is just to exclude trans people from public life entirely.

Sorry but participating in public life is part of bodily autonomy: The right to take your body wherever you want and do with it whatever you want. The right to access public toilets and gyms. The right not to be beaten up for accessing public toilets or gyms. If they're just existing there, they're not a threat. If you see them as a threat, that's a you problem, sorry.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[tribade-worship]

OP:

Of course I believe trans people deserve body autonomy.

That doesn't mean it's ethical for doctors to tell people they were born wrong and prescribe dangerous hormones and surgeries as treatment. Just like if someone walks into a doctor's office and claims they want to use their body autonomy to demand a lobotomy, a doctor would still lose her or his license if she or he obliged.

Body autonomy also doesn't mean sex-based rights can be eroded either.

Trans people can do what they want with their bodies. That's fine and dandy. My issue is when that clashes with women's rights, reinforces misogynistic stereotypes, is an enforced belief (can lose jobs or access to support networks if you don't believe in gender identity), or involves medical malpractice.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hooooookay, there's a lot to unpack here!

I've gotten a lot of shit on this post for comparing abortions to trans healthcare, but you, my friend, have gone one step worse and compared trans healthcare to LOBOTOMIES.

Trans surgeries and hormones are not dangerous or unnecessary. I know so many trans people both irl and online and I've heard of one (1) transmasc who's had issues with their surgery. I've heard of a few more who had to go for revision surgery a few years after. But that doesn't make it dangerous. You're hella buying into radfem fearmongering here and I don't really know what to do with that. Please believe me when I say that every single trans person I know has had their life massively improved through the hormones and surgeries they got.

Sure, that's not every single trans person who's ever lived, but I know enough trans people that this is significant!!

To compare a mastectomy to a lobotomy makes me think you're the person whos gone to their Drs and asked for a lobotomy, lol. Plenty of women have their breasts removed or reduced, be it from back pain, cancer risk or literally just for cosmetic reasons. Breasts don't like, do anything the same way an entire lobe of your brain does. They're dormant unless you're currently nursing a child. Many transmascs don't want children or if they do, they don't want to nurse, so this is literally excess tissue to them. Tissue they may never need. Tissue that distresses them.

It's not medical malpractice to give a dysphoric person gender affirming treatment. Oh my GOD. And yeah, if you're spewing vitriol about trans people, you may lose your job cus that's bigotry and hate speech. You have no right to want a whole group of people to just Not Exist. And that's what you're essentially saying. Trans ppl can do whatever they want with their bodies, UNLESS it goes against some kind of standard that you set. Okay?? It's either bodily autonomy, fully and entirely no questions asked, or it's bullshit.

This is probably the first comment on this post that's made me want to throw out the whole suitcase, ngl. Great job.

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

@sugarpplum That's great to hear <3

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

Hey radfems, i got a thinker for you.

You know about the concept of bodily autonomy right?

Very important in feminist discussions - around abortion, fgm, forced prostitution, etc.

The concept that it's your body, and only you should get a say in what to do with it.

Now the difficult question:

Does this concept apply to trans people?

as in, can you accept that trans people should have ultimate control over their own bodies, and get to do whatever they want with it?

does your concept of bodily autonomy stretch that far, or are you already finding a million reasons why bodily autonomy for pregnant women is immutable and important, but bodily autonomy for trans people is evil, going to lead to the downfall of civilisation, and should be taken away?

do you believe in bodily autonomy?

or do you believe in bodily autonomy only in cases where you approve of the choices being made? do you believe in bodily autonomy for cis women only?

do you believe that trans people are so brainwashed or deluded that they don't, shouldn't get to have bodily autonomy?

and how would you feel if someone said the same thing about you? you've been brainwashed by the radfem cult and therefore others should be allowed to make decisions about what you do with your body? wouldn't you be mad about all the assumptions being made - including that you are too stupid to recognise you're in a cult, that the cult wants the downfall of society, and needs to be prosecuted? wouldn't you feel patronised and scared for your community?

why is it different when you talk about trans people?

do you believe in bodily autonomy or not?

(if you think you should have bodily autonomy but trans people should not, you may just hate trans ppl..........js)

[katell-radikal]

First of all comparing abortion rights to cosmetic surgery is not right. Abortion is a medical procedure. Cosmetic surgery is optional.

A more apt comparison would be to compare trans surgeries to cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, BBL, etc.

In general radical feminists are against cosmetic surgery. But of course there’s no point berating the people who get those surgeries, so I guess what we are against is more:

- The advertising of cosmetic surgery as necessary (telling GNC people they need it to transition and “pass” / telling women they need it to stay young, to be thin, etc)

- The lies surrounding those surgeries (complication rates are brushed under the rug, lies about how it’s reversible, lies about how it will look completely natural afterward, lies about the pain. Once again this is all for both trans surgeries and cosmetic surgery aimed at women).

- Allowing minors to get those surgeries. I’d lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you a BBL (and I don’t have the heart to check it but I have 0 hopes that it has never happened), I lose my shit at a teenage girl being told sure, let’s get you that cosmetic mastectomy.

Cosmetic surgeons are money-motivated dickheads who care little about the oats they took in med schools or whatever. Their goal is never to help, it’s to make sure their customer will come back.

There’s an interesting bit in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf where she points out that cosmetic surgeons are the only kind of “doctors” who need to create their own customer base. There will always be sick and disabled people, but the need for cosmetic surgery needs to be manufactured through agressive advertising.

I hope that clears some things up

[bodily-autonomy-body-neutrality]

That was a really thoughtful and comprehensive answer, thank you so much.

I really agree about how cosmetic surgeons create their own customer base and a lot of money is in advertising and telling people their bodies are wrong. I don't like how society pressures us into the ideal form, for whatever gender, as men suffer from this a lot too, as well as trans people of any kind of course.

I think I disagree that all trans procedures are purely cosmetic. I've known many people for whom taking hormones or having surgery has massively increased their quality of life, and the alternative probably would have been death for quite a few of them. Dysphoria can be absolutely debilitating and lead to suicide and poor mental health outcomes.

Of course, I think cis people should also be able to get whatever medical treatment they want, necessary or not. That's bodily autonomy for us.

The subject matter of how our society heavily encourages people of any gender to see their body as wrong and take surgical means to "correct" their bodies, is entirely different from bodily autonomy. I hate that we as a society make people hate their perfectly fine bodies for no reason. That's a feminist issue and a disability issue and a fatvocacy issue and a queer issue, and of course a trans issue as well - trans people have plenty of harmful stereotypes, I won't deny this.

It's gonna take a lot of work to unfuck this society, but trans people are not the cause nor do they bear full responsibility for it. Trans people are just existing, finding themselves in the framework that we are all inside. You can criticise the need for cosmetic surgeries, sure, but people should still be able to access them.