Hi! I’ve been reading through your master posts and see that you rate Tale of 1000 Stars very highly.
I’m curious what you thought about the actual romance between the two main characters? I watched it once through myself, and am about halfway through a second watch with my husband (I’m a gay man), and both of us have just felt extremely unsatisfied by the romance between the two leads. I’m genuinely curious what your take was because maybe we’re just biased or something, or there may be cultural sensibilities that we’re missing that make it all make sense.
What I keep coming back to is it feels like the director is scared of having his two leads actually act gay. He does a great job of showing their feelings for each other develop and even, in my opinion, showing where they become aware of each other’s feelings (lots of meaningful looks and facial expressions).
And yet, even when they’re living together and it’s obvious they both know what that means, nothing is said out loud, there are no kisses, the fact they find each other attractive is treated as embarrassing instead of a blindingly obvious part of being in a relationship for people who aren’t asexual, etc. It’s all pure subtext. Even Chief’s sexuality is only hinted at in a couple oblique comments (which, to be fair, is already pretty good for a BL series, sadly), rather than stated flat out.
I was shocked to find out the director was an openly gay man. I just wonder whether audiences think this is normal? It seems par for the course for a lot of BLs. I genuinely liked My Engineer but was very frustrated by a similar shtick with Duean—“I obviously like you, I’m even willing to kind of tell you I like you, I’m willing to be your boyfriend and for our friends to know we’re in a relationship, but you want to KISS me? Cuddle? Have sex?! How DARE you!” Like seriously, is that normal in any relationship, straight or gay? Is there a plot value that outweighs the verisimilitude break that I’m just not getting? I just don’t understand it.
It was one of the main reasons I enjoyed Ae and Pete in LBC as a couple so much—they were just so OBVIOUSLY into each other, to the point that when Ae tries too hard to be a gentleman Pete puts his foot down because god damn it he has needs! They acted like a real couple, IMO.
I’m really waiting to find the BL where the main leads after getting into a relationship kiss each other hello and goodbye. So simple and I think extremely common IRL even for most young couples that haven’t been together that long (which is what most BL couples are). And yet even Pat and Pran in Bad Buddy, with their super-high levels of blessed domesticity, didn’t give us that.
Anyway, other than that (plus completely wasting a hottie like Drake on a bit part) I thought the show was amazing, which is why I’m watching it through again.
Oooo, what an interesting question. And there's a lot to unpack.
I think what you’re tunneling in on is two things:
Queer lens (from the director) and chemistry (from the actors) in BL
So I do rate 1000 Stars very highly. That’s because I found the quality of production excellent, the romance arc (as a narrative) tight and well paced, and the whole casts’ acting good. (I tend to adjust my standards and expectations depending on the country producing the drama. Believe me, this is great for Thailand.)
However, despite the fact that it’s directed by a gay man, I don’t think of it as particularly queer lens (I promise, I’ll explain) nor do I think the actor’s chemistry as a pair is all that great. (EarthMix have gotten a lot better since then. Cupid’s Last Wish, airing right now, is a fucking nightmare BUT EarthMix’s chemistry in it is insanely good. So either they’ve improved like crazy over the last year or they were told to be reserved in 1k*.)
So, all cards on the table with A Tale of Thousand Stars?
I’ve never bothered rewatch it (I wouldn’t call it comforting in the way I like). Also I have very few screen caps of it, a sure sign (for me) that I didn’t personally jive with the show. I tend to recommend it because it is objectively quite good for a Thai BL, and therefore I think those new to the fold would enjoy it as an entry level drug... so to speak.
I’m curious what you thought about the actual romance between the two main characters?
I think the romance is solid (from a romantic novel perspective). We can watch the two slowly fall in love with each other and the actors did a good job with this. That’s the emotional side of the equation. The physical and mental sides of falling in love, maybe not so much.
I have a post where I talk all about kissing in BL, but it’s also a vehicle to discuss how actors portray 3 kinds of chemistry on screen.
I believe that good chemistry (from the viewers perspective) comes down to three things:
emotional resonance (AKA empathy - heart) - face expression, eye contact, nuance
physical reactions (AKA sexual responses - body) - breath matching, lip softness, hand movements, other body language
sympathetic execution (AKA intellectual connection - mind) - dialogue delivery, interplay and push/pull or call and response
In other words, the audience needs to feel that the characters
desire each other physically
are enjoying it (AKA understand each others needs intellectually)
I think what you’re seeing in 1k* is that the actors got 1. down, 3. sort of, but 2. not at all. No excuses, but this is heritage Thai BL’s style.
SOTUS (who kinda started everything) is exactly the same way. To the point where I tend to think of Arthit as ace because there isn’t any other possible explanation for his behavior (as a character). (Apparently, I have been informed, he’s written that way too.) Even Love Sick (which really started everything) has pretty TERRIBLE kisses.
So there is TRADITION behind this kind of uneven chemistry in Thai BL, right up to and including 2gether.
You can think of these as a lot like romance novels written in the 1970s. Although written by women for women, these romances got a lot wrong about real life romance (especially from a feminist perspective). A lot of BLs just get a lot WRONG about what it’s really like to be gay (or bi) and in love. Or they sanitize the shit out of it (HA, literally, OMG I’m bad, stop me now.)
So BLs are/were ALSO being made intentionally palatable for a wider (read straight) audience. And perhaps they once thought that palatability had to do with making it romantic without forcing the audience to actually *think* about two men having sex. (Ho boy has this changed.) Or maybe they need to get it past censors, or gun for a particular air time, a less mature rating, etc...
Regardless, with most BL (like soap operas, or romcoms) there’s little or no actual tethering to real life, real gay experiences, or actual representation of the queer community either. Although there have been some MAJOR strides in Thai BL this year (2022), if you’re watching anything made prior to 2021 a queer lens is unlikely.
BL’s Sanitized Alt-Reality Bubble
Wide swaths of BL exist in a kind of alt reality bubble that’s connected to very little of what being gay is actually like.
And for some narratives that BECAUSE they come from particularly homophobic societies (couch cough Korea) so that’s kinda the point. (They can’t address being gay directly or they’d be calling their own society to task and Hallyu doesn’t permit that - AKA the drama would not get funding or distribution.)
And for some it’s just they don’t want to tackle yet another coming out story arc, so they just set it in a world where being gay is a non issue by having friends be utterly accepting and not representing parents at all.
Weirdly, I kind of like this because as a (sort of older) queer person, I do really just want an alt reality where the gay isn’t an issue, where the story is just like any other romance drama, with conflict coming from other sources than the gayness.
I do LOVE a great coming out scene (see He’s Coming to Me) but I also love it when the being gay is treated as normal, even ordinary, like in Semantic Error. I love the that girl character (who is also interested in SangWoo) simply sees JaeYoung as a love rival, like she would another girl (and as a bit of an arse, which he totally is).
On to physical chemistry gayness...
In Thailand, it’s only recently, and only really the non-GMMTV studios who started pushing for better #2 (physical chemistry), and then they will sometimes forget 1, and usually forget 3.
11 BLs with the BEST Chemistry - putting aside heat levels, quality of production, and story (it’s dated, there are a bunch airing in 2022 that have a lot more action).
However I wouldn’t say these had a queer lens either. So here’s this one:
10 BLs That Are Honest to a Queer Experience
But honestly I should do a post about all rounders, ones where I feel like they got everything right in romance and chemistry: physical, mental, emotional, but in leu of that post, here’s a list:
Best All Round Chemistry from KOREA
Everything out of Korea exists in the sanitized fantasy bubble.
Semantic Error (viki) - best all rounder, and my current favorite BL, both as a BL and a romance.
To My Star (viki) - not great on story but the romance is good, STICKS the landing so wait for it. I would put Oh! Boarding House also into this category.
Blueming (iqiyi) - it’s a little uneven but the arc and premise is good, and the chemistry is great. It’s a good example of how Korea approaches homosexuality in these narratives, like it’s never even directly talked about or referred too but there’s this one scene with two of their friends talking about them actually being a couple and it’s SO coded, it’s kinda crazy to watch and listen to.
More from Korea and their bubble where the chemistry is good but it falls down in other arenas like story structure: The Tasty Florida, My Sweet Dear, Behind Cut.
Best All Round Chemistry from TAIWAN
In general if you want good chemistry just watch all the Taiwanese stuff. Story structure and consent and such is all over the darn place, it’s harsh and a little delightfully dirty, but the chemistry is rarely bad and they just seem a lot more, ya know, actually gay.
We Best Love - (WeTV & grey) story is a HOT mess, the chemistry is unbeatable
HIStory 2: Crossing the Line (viki) - a favorite of mine, solid all rounder, HIStory 2: Right or Wrong is good too.
Be Loved In House: I Do (viki) - another one with a wackdoodle story but great chemistry. In fact, this could be said of most Taiwanese stuff.
See You After Quarantine? (viki) is great too, but they aren’t physically together for most of it, the story is fun tho.
Best All Round Chemistry from JAPAN
Utsukushii Kare AKA My Beautiful Man (gaga) - another one where you gotta wait for the end but once it gets there it’s unbeatable, ho boy, this one is hella kinky tho
Japan’s lens around BL and queernes (also kink and other stuff) is complex and incredibly reserved with regards to physical displays of affection. Watching Life: Love On the Line would give you a good window into this push/pull, but it’s very complicated and wrapped up in the history of yaoi.
Best All Round Chemistry from THE PHILIPPINES
My Day (grey) - hard to get hold of right now but the chemistry can’t be beaten even if it’s super campy (even more campy is Rainbow Prince, but you gotta love Disney to enjoy that glorious dumpster fire)
Like In The Movies AKA Gaya Sa Pelikula - this one, on the other hand is still on YouTube and is excellent. In fact, it might be exactly what you’re looking for and is a great example of the heights that the Philippines can achieve when they really go all out. Very queer lens.
Gameboys (Netflix) is great too, but again they aren’t together at all until the end.
Best All Round Chemistry from THAILAND
Not Me the series (YT) - so this isn’t really BL, the romance is incidental not a driver, but it is a great show and very very queer. Similarly 3 Will Be Free from the same team.
Lovely Writer (YT) - this one takes the BL industry to task, is has some awkwardness around that while also being a BL, one half of the couple is WAY more touchy feely than the other but for me, it works.
Why R U? (viki) and Cutie Pie (YT - airing now) both have crazy high heat without the issues that TharnType had, but they are... I don’t quite know how to put this, not good EXCEPT as Thai BLs, in which case they are quite good.
Love Stage!! (grey) - the Thai version of a Japanese manga/anime/live action that is really fascinating in how it compares and grapples with two takes on the same genre.
Dark Blue Kiss (YT) - so this is an established couple attempting to stay in the closet and all the drama that involves, the leads are comfortable with each other in a way that speaks to a true LTR, and it has a bit of a domesticity component.
Love By Chance (YT) - just AePete tho, but they are truly wonderful as a couple, possible one of the best we’ve ever gotten
Bad Buddy (YT) - if you want GMMTV level production quality and acting, then it should be this one but it exists in that everything about being queer is okay fantasy bubble I talk about (for Korea especially), but I don’t happen to mind that, personally.
I Told Sunset About You (grey) - I have personal issues with this show but the story is blatantly queer, cinematographically stunning, acting amazing, and the chemistry cannot be beaten, it’s excellent just a bit traumatic for some of us depending on your own journey to coming out and self acceptance, I wouldn’t say trigger warning but it did trigger me (I’ve never managed to finish it)
All that said, casual displays of physical affection, publicly or otherwise, are gonna be pretty rare in all Asian dramas except for those out of Taiwan and the Philippines (for obvious reasons given their respective socio-political histories with the west).
Now, there are exceptions from Thailand happening more and more (Cutie Pie, Secret Crush On You) but mostly, by western standards, these dramas are RESERVED.
I’m genuinely curious what your take was because maybe we’re just biased or something, or there may be cultural sensibilities that we’re missing that make it all make sense.
What I keep coming back to is it feels like the director is scared of having his two leads actually act gay. He does a great job of showing their feelings for each other develop and even, in my opinion, showing where they become aware of each other’s feelings (lots of meaningful looks and facial expressions).
I would agree. And, as you said, there are nuances to (and sensibilities around) representations and cultural expectations of what it means to be in love, to be romantic, and to be gay/queer in different cultures.
Like when I first came to Asian dramas in general I found the forehead kiss outright WEIRD and the head pats very proprietary and oddly paternal. But these gestures are considered HUGELY romantic in Korea, China, and Thailand in particular.
Now, these are visual trope nuances of how affection is shown (and expected to be shown) but the same thing will color the other aspects of chemistry, for example how couples romantically communicate will be different, how they react to each other, even domestically. Especially domestically with casual displays of affection.
To understand if what you are encountering is a societal difference (rather than a systemic homophobic one) you probubly need to watch some het romances from the country in question.
I mean, and this might seem rather arbitrary, but for example: lip kissing in Korea (and I think Japan too, way back) was/is so rare that Korea, at least, uses the English word for "kiss”. (When they specifically mean a romantic/sexualized lip kiss.) Linguistically this says a lot about what’s normalized behavior in a country.
I have a post about the language around the term “I am gay” versus “I like me” in Thai here.
And yet, even when they’re living together and it’s obvious they both know what that means, nothing is said out loud, there are no kisses, the fact they find each other attractive is treated as embarrassing instead of a blindingly obvious part of being in a relationship for people who aren’t asexual, etc. It’s all pure subtext. Even Chief’s sexuality is only hinted at in a couple oblique comments (which, to be fair, is already pretty good for a BL series, sadly), rather than stated flat out.
Yep, this is more common than not. Although, as I said the 2022 Thai BL line up is really trying to change this.
I was shocked to find out the director was an openly gay man. I just wonder whether audiences think this is normal? It seems par for the course for a lot of BLs. I genuinely liked My Engineer but was very frustrated by a similar shtick with Duean—“I obviously like you, I’m even willing to kind of tell you I like you, I’m willing to be your boyfriend and for our friends to know we’re in a relationship, but you want to KISS me? Cuddle? Have sex?! How DARE you!” Like seriously, is that normal in any relationship, straight or gay? Is there a plot value that outweighs the verisimilitude break that I’m just not getting? I just don’t understand it.
Ah okay, so some of this has to do with the Blushing Maiden Trope & Seme/Uke sex negativity in BL.
In that post I talk about it, but essentially since the uke character is associated with the female role (SIGH) he isn’t allowed to have sexual interest or agency because he’d be perceived as a whore, or dirty by the narrative (also “too gay”). And THAT is a feminist issue (as well as a queer one) tied up with the old: woman can’t like sex belief.
It was one of the main reasons I enjoyed Ae and Pete in LBC as a couple so much—they were just so OBVIOUSLY into each other, to the point that when Ae tries too hard to be a gentleman Pete puts his foot down because god damn it he has needs! They acted like a real couple, IMO.
Agreed. I like AePete best in the world. I also like that Ae, at least at the beginning, comes off as a little demi.
Frankly MAME’s universe (the author/producer) often has a lot of good couple chemistry (TharnType, Don’t Say No, etc...) but also has fucking Techno getting raped... Type getting molested... and the WORST stories. Some of us call this “MAME whiplash,” it’s both the best and the worst. Much of the BL fandom is in a mini war with ourselves and MAME over this.
I’m really waiting to find the BL where the main leads after getting into a relationship kiss each other hello and goodbye. So simple and I think extremely common IRL even for most young couples that haven’t been together that long (which is what most BL couples are). And yet even Pat and Pran in Bad Buddy, with their super-high levels of blessed domesticity, didn’t give us that.
Taiwan. You want Taiwan. Watch We Best Love, it’ll have everything you need in life. Also HIStory 2: Right or Wrong is SUPER domestic.
And the Philippines. Both My Day and Like in the Movies do this.
Also, Vietnam. They give some of the best domesticity (the little casual LTR touches you’re talking about). You could try Mr Cinderella or My Lascivious Boss (hella queer) or even Cause You’re Ma Boy (all on YouTube). Vietnamese BL has pretty poor production values and some growing pains tho, so be wary.
Meow Ears Up (gaga) is doing domesticity, but it’s an odd premise. Ingredients (YT) is very very domestic, but again, odd premise. In Ingredients the two are housemates, but basically married form the start it’s just that them getting together, so it takes a while.
Anyway, other than that (plus completely wasting a hottie like Drake on a bit part) I thought the show was amazing, which is why I’m watching it through again.
You know Drake had his own BL? It’s called ‘Cause You're My Boy or occasionally My Tee (it might still be on YT). It is a hot mess in the Love Sick and Make It Right vein, but it’s oddly queer and he’s great in it.
I hope this tackled some of your questions and pointed you towards some new shows you might love!
There’s quite a bit of comment chatter going on for this one, so check them out.
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