I've talked about this before but I really hated the Russian plotline. It served no purpose but cold war era propaganda/xenophobia. Soviet prisons whilst awful aren't as bad as american ones even in the modern day and no attempt is made to contrast this. There was a lot of historical revisionism just for anti-communism, gulags didn't even still exist in the 80s they were abolished in the 60s. And then there was the use of a nazi concentration camp in lithuania for filming rather than a soviet site.
Its just one of many things that I let go at the time when I thought the writing was going somewhere. But no it did not have any greater narrative purpose, it didnt make a whole lot of sense and we didnt get even an attempt at a resolution. Then I suppose imperialist propganda is what we should expect from capitalist stooges.
I don't plan on watching the documentary but I must say its impressive how much the writers manage to keep fucking up. I also do not think conformity gate is gonna happen as much as I wish it would but at this point its the only thing that might save them.
Whatever one thinks about ai surely they aren't dense enough to think showing they are using it isn't gonna spark a backlash? Not one, not two but three chatgpt tabs open? How did no one editing this think to cut that out?
Thats not even going into all the other nonsense thats apparently in that documentary. Are they speedrunning destroying their own credibility or something? I am finding it hard to believe that the writers, netflix and the entire crew could be this incompetent.
I wonder how long the conformitygate vs incompetence question is gonna go on.
This post will be focusing on problematic tropes (more so than the many plot holes).Prior to this, I thought some of these writing choices were intentional subtext and symbolism for a greater plot point (and that these tropes would later be subverted) . This wasn't the case. I'm mentioning these tropes now: for people to grasp why we shouldn't reward the Duffers in their future projects. And how normalizing these tropes (in main stream shows) will negatively impact future story telling for the worse.
Fridging trope: El embodies this as her death is used as a catalyst for various male character's development in the finale. The Duffers saying El was never going to be with the gang in the end , because she "represents the magic of childhood" for the boys is just sad. Because yes-characters can represent something, but writers need to understand they're MORE than just a symbol of something (they're also a person/character in the narrative). The fact she also represents the magic of childhood of all things is awfully portrayed since Jane herself never even had a real childhood - and because of the writers , she's also deprived of an adulthood .
In s5, bringing back Kali (one of the only brown girls in the show) to essentially just make her suffer and die. They brought her back: k*lled her found family , had her tortured by the gov again, and then she's shot by the gov. God forbid, a brown girl shoots her white oppressors (the writers have to k*ll her the same way she offed her abusers). Kali targeting her ab*sers was portrayed as morally questionable/nuanced in the show. But white Jim & Nancy mowing down random soldiers with bullets, or El killing a bunch of American/soviet soldiers was just to make them look 'bad ass'. The audience never has to question their morality for doing so- only Kali's. If you believe's mike's theory: that would mean they just used Kali to save and give the white heroine a happy ending (which is gross optics in and of itself).
If you believe that El died along with Kali (this is also problematic). They couldn't let El/Kali : the victims of government oppression and abuse get a "happy ending" . In fact both die due to the government ...what an uplifting message during these fraught political times. Remember Hopperâs speech where the whole point was Kali/El shouldnât have to off themselves since they deserve a happy ending (despite life being unfair to them constantly)? What was the point? Idk , if you don't die , off yourself if life has been cruel.Killing El / kali to stop the "cycle " isnât empowering at all. Itâs a harmful message to ab*se survivors!!!
Had Erica and Lucas in s4 be in a scene comparable to police brutality . Even having Jason point a gun at Lucas. And having poor Erica be tackled by a man (talked about it more thoroughly here) .The writers didnât have the guts to meaningfully touch on how prevalent racism was in the 80s - so without doing so it just felt like they were exploiting black trauma for suspense. Without even thinking of how that would negatively affect or trigger black viewers. They also made Billy racist but not explicitly so. Arguably so fans could still thirst after Billy and deny his racism -and possible so they could keep their racist fans within the G.A. They could have called out the deniers after s2 via an interview a long time ago. And in s3 they gave Billy a redemption arc when his racism wasn't ever rectified in s3 (they just ignored it)? Tbf , Lucas was very much likable and level headed for most of the seasons (Iâll give them that) . And I also appreciate how intelligent and affluent they made both Lucas & Erica . But, I did find some aspects of Ericaâs portrayal problematic since the very beginning- she always seemed to embody the âsapphire/sassy trope.â And Erica's actress has verbally implied she's had qualms with Erica embodying the " sassy black woman" trope (although subtly).
After the finale the Duffers also claimed that "no one is concerned about Erica" cause she's "so tough". Can we stop the adultification/masculinizing of young black girls? It's awful and problematic .Isn't her character in middle school (it would be normal to be concerned for her cause she's a literal child)?! I hope she gets better roles in the future.
They never addressed what happened to Argyle, when they could of just said a random one liner saying he left the city before the military check points were set-up. They also didn't even give the actor a heads-up that he would not be returning for s5. It just shows to me that once again they don't care about the majority of their poc characters or even actors .Similar to Erica , Argyle could also fall into another problematic trope: the "hispanic stoner trope".
QUEER REP: QUEER BAITING A COUPLE. Constantly comparing Mike/ Will to canon couples for 5 seasons just to foreshadow unrequited love . And also use byler in marketing/social media constantly. Will said that if he lost mike he'd want it to be done like 'ripping off a bandaid' (the writers didn't give the queer viewers that- they dragged us along even in the finale, cause they wanted our viewership and engagement to make money). They repeat the tired old trope of : gay best friend needs to gets over straight bff (who is in love with the main heroine). Then have the gay friend lie to prop up and fix that straight pairing (while establishing the cyarno trope with the painting but never addressing it) . And in that season , they have him literally 3rd wheel the straight couple just to make him suffer (and use him as a punching bag for the whole series).Because a lot of straight writers subconsciously romanticize queer pain (and think it adds depth to their writing) .
Then they force said gay character to come out because he was coerced to by the villain . While the show never even uses the word "gay" for either Robin or Will . Then the sapphic couple also gets together/break up OFF SCREEN (while all the straight couples get actual development or closure) . They have the show take place during the aids epidemic with no mentions of it, and ignore the fact that 'anti gay propaganda' was prolific in the 80s . If Duffers want to talk about ârealismâ to justify Will getting rejected : it's not "realistic", for a room full of straight people to all be accepting of Will in the 80s . Letâs talk about how the Duffers barely talk about homophobia- so the straight audience doesnât feel too bad about their own subconscious biases and LONG history of discriminatory practices ! THAT'S NOT "REALISTIC"-it's HISTORICAL REVISIONISM. The straight G.A bullied the queer fanbase for years (because queer viewers wanted better queer rep and fell for the queer bait). Those bullies never have to reflect on their actions (they're rewarded). They also didn't even give Will an actual 'rejection': he just rejects himself which is almost worst. Then he gets a 0.5s scene with a nameless guy -wow how revolutionary . "Gay epilogue bf/gf" is also another problematic gay trope.
Because an epilogue bf is a "tokenistic nod rather than meaningful inclusion" of a romantic gay relationship . At least El & Will are away from Ted 2.0 .Will getting rejected is just remnants of the usa's hays code: which made it illegal for films, tv and books to have a queer characters be in them unless they die , or had an unrequited love, or sad ending . This is also why shows do subtle queer coding even today (it was how writers back then got around the law to give their queer characters a happy ending) . The coding in ST was for queer readers to pick up on , while straight viewers would not . And that's why straight viewers today will say we're "delusional " : queer coding is now primarily weaponized by straight writers for marketing purposes. They know queer coding is usually only noticed by queer viewers . And they use this to their advantage when 'baiting' a queer couple, and not following through. They take advantage of the queer viewers, but also use their straight /heteronormative viewers as a shield (since they know they'll defend them in the end) .
Using sa/csa imagery with the monsters just for shock value. And as an âallegoryâ again cause they didnât have the guts to address the subject (just like they didnât have the guts to address homophobia or racism thoroughly or meaningful ) .They just triggered a bunch of sa victims for nothing , and for multiple seasons . As a gay csa victim this really pisses me off.
This is disgusting because there was no narrative reason to do this. It's not like they even tried to explore how and why THIS specifically would traumatize Will. They just did it for shock value and to torture their gay character some more. And they doubled down on this imagery in s5 with other kids- for again seemingly no narrative reason. Or maybe for more nefarious reasons...
Have Karen (who is in her 40s) almost hook up with a teenage (18y old) Billy . And she doesnât even call it off cause of his age but because âshe has a family.â In a lot of ways Karen was the goat but that choice did ruin her character for me. Like couldnât she at least tell Billy: âyou're much too young for me. I don't want to take advantage of you" in addition to her 'having a family' comment? Also having Murray encourage teenagers to bang was weird. I'm SIDE EYE-ing the Duffers forever . Especially cause they also added superfluous csa imagery and forced us to watch kids makeout in s3.
In the Wheeler family, this questionable behavior isn't just from Karen . We have El who didnât initially know what a friend was , ask Mike if heâd be her brother or friend at the snowball- and then Mike kisses her. In s2 we see a gifted boy (who talks about "ectotherms") be "IN LOVE" with a girl who was just learning how to tell time and ask what âcompromiseâ means . Then in s3, Mike just makes out with her constantly - despite El having to ask Max âhow do I know what I like?â And in s3 she didn't even knowing what Illinois was (even after going to Chicago in s2). But- there was no (morally questionable) power imbalance between the 2 .Nope...not SUPER Creepy at all . No real world implications. I'm probably overthinking it : it's not like men in real life have weird fantasies about taking advantage of naive -impressionable girls with less knowledge of the real world than them so they can manipulate and groom them into a relationship (laughs nervously).
In real life, Mike would have been jumped for taking advantage of such a girl. Yeah, she matured and grew later on (but them dating, especially in the early seasons was always creepy and morally questionable). Myself (and others) have been saying for years: she needed friends, family , and socialization before she jumped head-first into a romantic relationship.
The worst part is the Duffers placed a child in an old problematic sci-fi/fantasy trope called "born sexy yesterday" . No , I'm not saying she was sexy for people who love twisting my words. The trope has been around for decades but the term was only recently coined by youtuber 'pop culture detective' (I'd recommend watching the video about it yourself) . The trope is usually about a main heroine who is a "magical woman who is an adult but is mentally stunted like a child (and has little to no exposure to the outside world) . Her male love interest is often a normal (or nerdy) human man who teaches her about the world and grooms her into a relationship ."
One alarming thing I learned from 'pop culture detective's" video was that an element of the trope involves the woman innocently undressing in front of a group of men cause she doesn't understand the social rules (this is usually done for gross fan-service) . This made my heart stop cause El did attempt to undress in front of the boys in the 1st episode. Initially, I though that it was to indicate how little privacy at the lab she had (or worse) . Now I'm just side eyeing the writers who wrote this (especially given how infamous Hollywood is toward child actors)...
The Duffers didn't subvert the trope: by showing how problematic Mike/El were together and letting El break it off . But instead they doubled-down on romanticizing their relationship .And worst of all: they used a child for the trope, which is EVEN WORSE than the initial problematic trope itself!!!!!! Mike was also clearly their self insert so it's even creepier .
Compared Mileven to to El & Brenner, el& hopper and el& Henry (post with proofs here) . But then they sell mileven as a romantic fantasy despite Mike STILL not being able to say âI love youâ back to El in s5. You suck, Wheeler . The fact Elâs whole life has been controlled by men that thought they knew what was best for her. And then they made El's sacrifice revolve around her (not great) bf is just gross and frankly unearned. Especially given how little positive development we saw of their relationship. She literally said in s4 Mike didn't "understand" her but than in s5 claimed Mike was the only one who "understood" her. It was so obvious men wrote this line to fufill their (Mike) self-insert fantasy, GROSS. El deserved to live and have fufilling relationships and bonds with other women. Especially when men took away her mother,aunt, "sister", childhood, and even her ability to express her femminity.
Mileven was also compared to Ted/karen. And even without El , Mike still conforms with his Ted glasses and ends up like his father who is oblivious to the world around him: hanging up the painting that he still thinks El commissioned . "you're just blind that a girl's not grossed out by you."
He falls into the false fantasy of El that Will made. Just like in the end, Mike writes her in the fantasy: as a mage who is in a far away land with waterfalls. Even when El herself said about this fantasy :â life isnât like one of your campaigns, you canât write the ending.â And he proceeds to do just that (re-write HER ending and everyone else's)! Just like the Duffers , Mike didn't see the real her, only a fantasy of her- to them she was just a a symbol of childhood magic (like the characters in Mike's childhood game). Mike also doesnât move on like everyone else , and the party seemingly drifts apart and heâs alone like he always feared. He never becomes "Mike the brave" in the finale either ,unlike Holly the heroic or even Will the sorcerer who said he'll no longer be "afraid". And Mike is left with "regrets", that he said he wanred to prevent. How weirdly (and unintentionally) bleak for a self-insert character? Divorce get to you Ross?
Also having an open ending can theoretically work. But if El dying and El surviving both have GAPING PLOT HOLES. It's just poor writing.
Have almost all the character spy and stalk a love interest. Jonathan using the camera on Nancy , Lucas using binoculars to spy on max, Steve spying on a girl he was into in s3 with binoculars, el /Max spying on Mike & Lucas after their breakup Aka: stalking for love trope.
Why did the characters spy on one another parallel the hyper-surveillance of the us gov, or the spying of the mindflayer? Duffers probably: "no reason, we just do parallels for fun with no deep thematics behind it." They also had Jonathan throw out Nancy's sweater cause it was pink . SMH duffersâ incel energy unfairly affecting Jonathanâs character. Some aspects of how the women were written were done well. But, sometimes subconscious misogyny seemed to seep through -by the duffers or another writer . Besides Kali/El's endings being evidence of that. Why was Tina "the worst" in the family, when Derick was clearly the menace before his redemption arc? Was it necessary to have the children call Holly a b*tch, strangle her, and throw her down the stairs? I could go on...
I have mixed feelings about this next one, because they tortured Max for s2-5 (and frankly I would have preferred Max just breaking the curse in s4 like Will broke the m.f's control in s2). So, I'm glad she got her happy ending in s5 . I get that realistically : her bones healed, and her atrophied muscles healed too (even thought they ignored the fact that Max would also realistically be on a feeding tube and IV while in the the hospital). But , the fact vecna's curse was broken so her blindness is just gone... I'm curious how some other viewers with disabilities felt about this? Lucas even claimed Mike was "blind" because of a girl. So Max being "blind" was possibly a call back. You could argue Max being physically fine in the end is part of the "throwing off the disability" trope.
They play Hopperâs explosive anger as a joke even in the finale (haha so cute that heâs yelling at Joyceâs son for making a simple camera mistake.) Letâs have Joyce get with a guy with anger issues even though she already divorced a guy who would yell and insult her sons . Hopper had some great characterization even in the finale but they flanderized and tried to make his anger issues comical from s3 and beyond . The way he talked to her in s3 was apalling . Hopper in s3 is made into a male power fantasy : an angry , gun slinger , who was based off of magnum pi and other macho men from that era of tv/film . Joyce doesnât get with nerdy, sweet, emotionally intelligent bob whose had a crush on her since highschool (he is brutally killed looking at her with love ). "Nice guys can't win": all cause the nerdy Duffers didn't pull in high school.
So instead she gets with the macho archetype from the era . Even when Murray in s3 pointed out that Jim reminded her of Lonnie . Why even have him say this if we're supposed to want them together??? Duffers really struggle to write healthy relationships.
Have Murray go through military checkpoints, and be the one that drives aid/food into a town under military occupation (which is even enclosed by a fence/wall). When Brett gelman is a racist Zionist who supported the Military siege , bombing, blocking of aid and starvation of Gazans who were also in an enclosed walled/fenced city .
And Palestinians outside of Gaza also have to use different roads and go through various military checkpoints unlike their Israeli counterparts (as part of the 70+ year apartheid). Having the kids literally escape the occupying military force by going into tunnels (was a choice when israel uses the fact Gaza has tunnels as an excuse to bomb hospitals, schools, churches, mosques, etc). And having Murray blow up a military helicopter (while palestinian kids are often arrested for simply throwing rocks at Israeli tanks is interesting). But, I guess none of these characters are "terr*rists of the state" or get arrested for decades without trial like Palestinians do . Even when these characters in ST actually killed a bunch of soldiers- they're not deemed as "terr*rists". HMMMMMMMM wonder why? Also look how "realism" is randomly gone again (guess it's only important for gay suffering and k*lling off ab*sed women). It could be a coincidence. Or , at best, it's one of the other writers taking a dig at Brett Gelman. As he's the only character who gets to go through checkpoints as ease -unlike the Hawkins citizens (similar to how israeli citizens are able to go through military checkpoints in occupied Palestine with ease) .
And if not, they're using the plight of Palestinian trauma as window dressing for their show (or even worse mocking the people who wanted to boycott s5 due to the their 2 actors' comments against Palestine).
In s3, they do essentially cold-war propaganda (common in the 80s) within the show by making the communist soviets cartoonishly evil. All while Erica is used as a conservative mouth piece: who praises American Capitalism . And she is described as a genius "political junkie" (after she claims America is a meritocracy and people get payed based on their contributions to society... ok, respectfully don't agree with that take tbh).
Ignore the fact that at this exact same time Regan as president popularized "trickle down economics" (otherwise known as Regeanomics) : which is the cause of most of our economic issues today . He also cut & reduced funding for many of our social-programs by running on a campaign that used a racist dog whistle for black women .
So yeah, maybe i'm too sensitive and overthinking it (unlike the Duffers, apparently). But having the (possibly) white conservative writers make her say this whole spiel : feels very icky, and a bit tone death given the political climate at that time. Jonathan tbf does a "anti-capitalist" movie in the finale, but it rings hollow, when the stranger things creators are seemingly very pro-capitalist. Down to the obnoxious product placements, the merch, spin off shows/books/comics/food etc. The Duffer Brothers (after the finale) even started offering a writing class of all things, which is only available through a subscription platform (again cause they can never have enough money apparently). They think : THEY deserve all that money for THEIR contribution to society (don't blow up their ego more, and let them take your money , while looking down on you)!!!!
The duffers claim itâs a show for outcasts but at the end of the day- itâs just a show for nerdy white incels or men .
It has a veneer of progressiveness, but it isnât in actuality. They claim the show is against "conformity" but ironically falls into many of the conformist tropes and writing conventions that have been critiqued as harmful for decades. It uses marginalized people and women to get browning points. But, It's not progressive at it's core (it's regressive)! It didn't challenge many of the out-dated (and harmful) tropes we don't want to see in media today. IF ANYTHING THEY BROUGHT BACK MANY PROBLEMATIC TROPES.
You could also argue the show is subtle & insidious : historical revisionism.
A few years ago Iâd give them more credit with the symbolism , parallels, music choices, set design, foreshadowing, etc (which usually amounted to nothing). I thought some of the problematic writing was intentional subtext and symbolism for a greater reveal (or that most of these tropes would later be subverted or explained as problematic in the narrative ) . But that finale along with all the plot holes, and poor writing choices, made me question the entire series as a whole. To be fair a lot of redeeming aspects of the show may have been attributable to less famous writers of the show, directors/producers, set designers, music composers, etc . Some of the highest rated episodes weren't written by the Duffers (or had other writers reeling in the Duffers problematic elements). The s5 writer's strike probably didn't help. And for s5 they got rid of one of their female writers /co executive producers (Kate Tefry) who was involved since s1 .Instead of helping finish s5, she worked on the spin-off play instead (which could explain a lot about the nose dive s5 took):
I also do sort of believe in divorce gate: the conspiracy theory about Leigh Janiak (Ross' ex wife) maybe being a ghost writer. She's a screenwriter and director (who has worked on Ross' other projects).The divorce filing occurred after part 1. Leigh also made the 'fear street trilogy': it was diverse, set in the 90s, had a straight bait instead of a queer-bait, and had the main character save her gf from possession/death. Love was the cure. It also had a bunch of st easterggs down to a bleeding nostril to allude to the supernatural, and staring 3 actresses from ST. Maya hawke's character even worked at a video store. Leigh complained that "queer subtext is not the same as real representation" and that she despised when writers would do queer subtext but never follow through (explaining it was one of the reasons she made fear street). hmm. The duffers were also sued for allegedly stealing others work twice (so I would not be surprised if he stole creative work or ideas from his wife too). The first lawsuit, filed by filmmaker Charlie Kessler in 2018, who claimed the Duffers stole the idea from his 2012 short film Montauk after he pitched it to them at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2014.The second lawsuit, filed in 2020 by Irish Rover Entertainment, alleged that the show was based on an unpublished script called Totem written by Jeffrey Kennedy, with similarities in plot, characters, and concept art. This lawsuit was settled out of court in 2023
Regardless of whether those rumors are true . We should not reward or normalize the Duffers writing in Hollywood : they do harmful/regressive tropes and messaging, use easterggs/call backs that have no deeper meaning, and can't complete a story without many plot holes and ret-cons. They even normalized short seasons which take much longer to make (when shows shortly before st's initial airing had 25+ (45 minute) episodes: that were created in less time with similar or better quality. That's not even getting into all the rumors/ allegations of the Duffers mistreating their staff...
I know some may disagree with my takes here , but I just wanted to get my grievances out so I never have to think of this awful series again.*Feel free to add to this list of issues in reblogs or comments.
Agree with pretty much everything here. To expand on the Russian plotline, in season 3 it was made cartoonishly evil but in s4 although they made them more serious the cold war propaganda still continued. Russian prisons were shown to be terrible but there was no attempt to contrast that with the even worse American prison system. Gulags weren't even still in existence by the 80s, they were abolished in the 60s, it was all played up for anti-communism. Then you get into all the stuff with them using a Nazi concentration camp in Lithuania instead of a Soviet prison which was then later sold as a Stranger things experience.
I also heard something about the anti-capitalist thing they had Jonathan talking about basically being a reference to another one of their own shows. Even when they are claiming to be anti-capitalist they are just using it for money.
Truly a bizzare series of events to see the writers turn on their own hardcore fans. Like sure you can still make money with the gen audience but now the duffers are marked forever in fandom as homophobes, misogynists etc. They will never truly have a loyal fanbase again, because they will forever carry that stain.
I am sure they will be very happy with their money but if that is what matters to you then you truly live a sad life. They were given so many chances, far too many, but they lacked the talent to grasp it. They may not have been clever enough to make conformitygate a reality, but it is the ending that will live on in my heart.
the duffers calling bylers just "noise" that they have to tune out ----> bylers on twitter coming up with a theory based on the massive amounts of plot holes and conformity messaging in the finale that has become so large there are multiple news articles being written about its evidence and everybody's talking abt it online.
The Duffers purposefully weaponized our analytical skills against us in order to queer bait us (while the straight ga didn't even notice , and the Duffers gaslit us in their post finale interviews ).
So I'm very proud of bylers using their analytical skills to point out: the production flaws, plot holes, pointless easter eggs, and how the show ironically ended in conformity. All while the bylers craft a more cohesive story than the Duffers by using easter-eggs, dialogue, parallels, and d&d lore mentioned within the show .
It's KARMA. It hits the Duffers in their egos: as the bylers tear their whole story a part and show to EVERYONE how poor and vapid of writers they truly are . GA: "The finale was so bad it caused mass psychosis and some how makes more sense than the finale." The Duffers were short-sighted since MOST theorists/analyzers in the fandom WERE bylers! A lot of us analyzed more than just byler (but the entire show)! We're not just noise they can tune out . Even if the bylers are more than likely wrong-the Duffers are the ones who look bad in the long run . And I think that's beautiful... and hilarious .
Right or wrong , we win either way. They tried to make us queer viewers the butt of the joke. Now theyâre the ultimate joke in the end :
I do wonder if Trump didn't do the whole imperialism in Venezuela stuff whether conformitygate would have got even bigger. Like even with most major news outlets distracted by that, conformitygate has still gotten way more attention than you would expect.
ok here is a massive post of all the evidence iâve seen for conformitygate on tiktok, twt, tumblr, etc. maybe itâs insane but remember this is just for fun!! lmk if i missed anything :)
interviews/promo
millie said in an interview that the finale would be meta, like a play within a play; we havenât seen that yetÂ
st twitter posted âvecna WILL payâ after the finale was released. someone asked why they used future tense and they replied âđ«ąâ
wsqk posted that volume 3 is lost
crossword was posted with the words waterfall, goodbye, dragons, believe, and dungeons, all around âgraduationâ. last letters spell out âlenses,â see below about the graduates in sunglassesÂ
countless cast and crew members said the painting would be addressed and it wasnâtÂ
the duffers were advertising this huge plot twist in the finale and there wasnât oneÂ
wsqk hinted at sm scenes that didnât happenÂ
the duffers said we would find out how the bolt on the byers door unlocked in s1 but we never didÂ
on twitter, netflix posted like the title screen for every episode and then made a blank post after ep8
lines/quotes
âyour memory of what happened might be foggy, confusedâ
âno wonder everyone was so clueless, itâs a tranceâ
âi donât believe in coincidences. not anymoreâ
âitâs like thereâs a missing of the puzzle. a big piece.â âyeah well the pieces are in vecnaâs mind!â (mike sees an incomplete rainbow puzzle in the hospital, he needs to find this piece of himself)
âis this real? is vecna messing with us again?â
âthis makes no goddamn sense!â
âi got so turned around i actually ended up right back at the beginningâ (max in vecnaâs memories) the epilogue is the same scene as the beginning of the showÂ
âeverything you see, none of it is real!â
âthatâs it? comfort and happiness? could you be more trite?â this is how the duffers ended their show. theyâre calling their own ending trite. itâs not the real endingÂ
âthis isnât like one of your campaigns, you donât get to write the endingâ then the epilogue is mike doing literally thatÂ
scene details
small details change; max told holly this is a sign theyâre in henryâs mind
door handle in the basement is on the other side in the epilogue than it was in the first episodeÂ
guy filming graduation is in a shirt that says duffers, the duffers are filming us
in the credits, âJK95â is written. just kidding, episode 9 season 5
steve calls derek âthomasâ in the epilogue baseball game. he should know derekâs name. this is a false memoryÂ
vecna took 12 kids and exactly 12 graduating students are wearing sunglasses; this may be covering their eyes in a trance or showing that they canât actually see whatâs going onÂ
on her journey, el is in a blue jacket with a yellow backpack facing a rainbowÂ
the electricity dial changed from gray to red, like how the carousel on the playground changed from yellow to gray, itâs a sign of being in vecnaâs memoriesÂ
at graduation, everyoneâs hands are positioned like vecnaâs, and how billyâs were positioned when he was possessedÂ
in his graduation speech, dustin yells about screwing conformity but the show ends with literally everyone conforming. nancy looks like her mom, mike looks like his dad, max gets angry in dnd and breaks things like billy would, will is in a leather jacket like lonnie and smoking like joyce, etc. they all look like their parents that vecna went to school with. he had clearer images of their parents than them so thatâs how they all look in the epilogueÂ
a board game called whatzit is seen in the wheelersâ basement AND hopâs cabin. vecna is still there Â
heroes has played twice before in the show; when they found wills body and thought he was dead and when they thought hopper was dead. heroes plays again in the credits. it always plays at a fakeout death. vecna didnât really dieÂ
someone is holding up a blank poster at graduationÂ
background characters at enzoâs are watching us, the audienceÂ
in their campaign with eddie, they thought theyâd killed vecna but they really hadnâtÂ
orange is the schools color when henry went there, but it no longer is. however everyoneâs graduation robes are orange. in nancyâs spinoff book it explicitly talks about her graduating in green robes, but vecna would only remember it as orangeÂ
in the epilogue, the shot outside the wheelers house of the sprinkler is the exact same as in s1. scenes are being reused, vecnaâs making up memories from what he hasÂ
in the wsqk, the floor looks just like the chess board that el and henry played on. henry is playing them all like chess pieces
robin describes hawkins we being different than she remembers in the epilogueÂ
robins style completely changes in the epilogue. she doesnât even look like herself
nancy drops out of emerson, her lifelong dream?Â
henry breaking the fourth wall at the dining table like weâre the children in his mindÂ
never revealed the significance of november 6
in the epilogue gay bar, lights are flickering behind will.Â
why do jonathan nancy robin and steve have their whole epilogue scene? that was never really a friend group. but vecna might assume it was because they were all the same yearÂ
there is a tick of vecnaâs clock then a heartbeat sound before mike hallucinates being in elâs mindÂ
max literally could not have graduated with them
in his coming out scene, will says he likes milkshakes at melvalds but they only had those in vecnaâs time. and will says he likes getting lost in the woods. no?? thatâs his trauma???
bts not matching up with actual s5, meaning thereâs more scenes we havenât sceneÂ
in a bts shot of joyce at enzoâs sheâs wearing a completely different outfit than she is in the finale that we see. this outfit is joyceâs 80s style so it likely wasnât just winona out of costumeÂ
on instagram, noah posted a photo of the dnd binders lined up in a different order than they were in the epilogue. in this order, the letters line up to spell âx a lie,â dimension x is a lie
bts shot of mike giving will the âfor willâ mixtape that there was sm merch for but it was never in the show, as well as the letter that ends in âlove mikeâÂ
in a bts shot of will in the gay bar, he has a completely different hairstyle and he has an earringÂ
they announced a soundtrack that included many songs that were never played, like âjust like heavenâ and âbicycle raceâ
dnd lore
in the credits, will is listed as an illusionist, not a sorcerer. the wearer of the eye of vecna can see through illusions. will is possessed and vecna is casting illusions through him.Â
this makes will the eye of vecna. mikes hand is twitching in many shots which could make him the hand of vecna. the holders of the eye and hand are deeply connected, like mike and willÂ
henry is missing an eye when he first arrived in dimension x and he is shot in the hand as a child. the eye and hand of vecna are both significant in dnd, so clearly this was intentional but is never addressed Â
a false hydra is a monster in dnd that convinces its victims of false memories, and that things that never happened actually did. if mike is its victim, this could explain everything off in the finale and his misguided theory about elâs survival. we need another ep to address thisÂ
when you cut off a false hydraâs head, two grow back, and this hurts the dungeon master (mike) the most. joyce cut off vecnas head and mike suffered the most in the epilogue
âif someone known to the target is killed by the false hydra, the target may believe that their deceased acquaintance had merely gone on a journey somewhere far awayâ this is exactly what mike imagines for el, making him the targetÂ
the false hydra was the monster in wills paintingÂ
mikes campaign theory
season 5 mirrors mikeâs DND campaign from season 1, which dustin explicitly called full of plot holes and with a confusing ending. the duffers are acknowledging that s5 is full of plot holes and had a confusing endingÂ
in s1, mike tells karen theyâd been playing for 10 hours then asks for 20 more minutes. season 5 was 10 hours and 20 minutes. this cannot be a coincidence because on 1/1/26, netflix extended runtimes of all vol1 episodes by 3 minutes SO THAT the season would be exactly 10hr20m Â
the audience is mike who is vecnaâd
mike is the only one looking at us in promo posters
stranger things insta story said âto our fans, youâre the heartâÂ
lucas says to mike âis this real? is vecna messing with us again? this makes no senseâ
robin, lucas, and mike are talking about how vecnaâs victims are all in a tranceÂ
lucas is fans who figured out the twist, mike is us, robin is the duffers explaining everything in this sceneÂ
when will is unconscious on the couch and joyce is with him, we get a shot of lucas behind them and another shot of mike behind them. lucas and mike are standing in the same spot in their respective shots but the background is completely differentÂ
robin used the âi think weâre alone nowâ record to represent holly, which is the same song vecna gave her and knew she loved. how would robin know this? she doesnât; this is a vecna trance which is how we have this detail
wills song is âshould i stay or should i goâ by the clash from the combat rock album. robin pulls out london calling by the clash, which is the wrong record for will. mikes memories are getting mixed upÂ
vickie is not in the epilogue and her and robin donât have their enzoâs date, although joyce and hopper do. the end of rovickieâs relationship is very ambiguous. however if this is all in mikes mind, mike doesnât know rovickie is dating which is why this wouldnât be included. and vecna doesnât know vickieÂ
we all know the mindflayer âlikes it cold,â but itâs from dimension x, a desert planet. you would think dimension x would be cold then. itâs not because itâs made up in mikes mind and he didnât think of that detail in his subconsciousÂ
all of netflixâs january 1 releases hint at mike being vecnaâd: they are mike epps: delusional, the big fake, the brave, etc
when they came out of the ud and were met with military, a soldier knew mikes name. how is that possible? Â
thereâs so many reasons mikeâs perception of elâs death dont make sense. how could she have brought him into her mind when the kryptonite was stifling her powers? how could kali have made an illusion of her when she died from a bullet wound a while before? and even if she hasnât died from that, the explosion in the upside down started in the lab where kali was so that wouldâve killed her too. she wouldâve been dead when weâre supposed to believe she was casting an illusion of el.Â
real finale will be 1/7
netflix posted on vol2 release day saying âyour future is on its way. #WhatNext January 7, 2026â
joyce was proven to be right about will not being dead 7 days after he disappeared (1/7 is 7 days after the finale)
in the credits, a dice rolled on a 7
the very first 1on1 mike and will scene is âthe roll. it was a 7â
and thereâs also just so many more plot holes and things that werenât addressed that need more screen time to resolve
I am seeing plenty of fix it fics going up right now and I look forward to reading them. My own contribution is a bit different, I originally had the idea before season 4 comes out and wrote the first chapter so I will have to go back and fiddle around with it a bit to make sense. So I just wanted to give a short summary to see if anyone would be interested before I devote too much time to it.
Back in Season 2 when Will is taken to the lab Mike has the realisation that Will is a spy and they knock him out. But what if they don't knock him out in time? What if the monster can take over Will fully? The party is forced to flee from Hawkins as rifts open up throughout the town and its residents are devoured by monsters. The upside down wins and the world is consumed in darkness. But one day, years later, El receives a desperate message from Will with a chance to put everything back how it was supposed to be. The party returns to Hawkins for one last fight but is all as it seems?
Let me know what you think! If I do write it I plan on writing the ful thing before I start releasing chapters so I don't disappoint anyone with an unfinished story. Though lets face it even unfinished I can't possibly write a worse story than canon lol.
because i can be delusional one last time, here are all the inconsistencies iâve gathered so far that makes me believe that either the finale didnât happen or was a vision or it was a tragic ending:
mike ending up like ted. even the same hairstyle.
robin suddenly dressing in frills and has long hair
rovickie break up out of nowhere when last we saw robin was promising to take her on a date
el saying goodbye to mike in her mind when the sirens were blaring and she shouldnât have been able to do that
the voltage dial turning from grey to red
the coming out scene dialogue inconsistencies
mike being unable to tell el i love you even though that was his plot for the entirety of st4
el saying mike understands her better than anyone else when el says the opposite in st4 and her love for max is what makes her more powerful than sheâs ever been
the mind flayer and vecna defeat being very underwhelming
max at the dnd game crashing out about how the campaign doesnât make sense the way weâre crashing out.
all the wsqk clues not adding up
duffers said weâll know who opened the byers door bolt in ep1. the show still hasnât told us
why was will framed as the exotic matter in the bridge episode drawing with an x over his heart?
why was the painting not addressed when it was wills entire st4 plot?
mike and wills eternal sunshine outfit inspirations when it led to absolutely nothing
max graduating with the boys when sheâs missed a year of school
WHAT was vecnaâs plan exactly? what would merging worlds do? what would it look like?
where were the demos both in the upside down and the abyss?
what about birthdaygate? why do henry and will share birthdays?
why do joyce and hopper never mention knowing henry?
what was the point of the âsnowballs to avalancheâ conversation?
why did will go from hopeful to giving mike up in a day?
why do the military let them go? and why is there a memorial with eddieâs name on it (as seen in BTS)?
why wouldnât mike touch will even before the coming out? and more so after?
is mike grieving el the emotional weight of the finale? because it didnât move me. in fact it pissed me off that he couldnât say he loved her even then.
the duffers equating el to her powers in an interview saying she had to die. when millie herself said elâs st5 arc was realising sheâs more human and less superhero.
if iâm missing something, feel free to reply and iâll add it in edits
edit (more):
creelby parallels with byler going unmentioned
âcan love defeat fear?â theme in tfs, but the finale was âcan weapons defeat the mind flayer?â
where is henryâs backstory? and patty?
does will still have powers?
we never saw Will's Vecna Vision
mwtfdydg
do the kids have powers now?
is the mindflayer even dead?
the lies and contradictions in Interviews
the tape in promo
will standing like henry in shock jock and that not leading up to anything
whereâs the turnbow family?
how did steve become a teacher without going to college?
what happened to owens?
what happens to the pregnant women in the lab?
how did killing the mind flayer and beheading vecna not hurt will?
everyone in the epilogue sitting with their hands like henry:
the whatzit board game in hopâs cabin in the epilogue (and in mikeâs basement in the epilogue)
hop moving on from elâs death faster than mike, when all of st5 was spent showing us that mike barely mentions el and hop was ready to die to keep her safe.
why does the epilogue parallel the campaign at the end of season 1: 10 hours long, full of plot holes.
why do nancy and karen, mike and ted have the same hairstyles - which is also coincidentally henryâs hairstyle
AI generated images in the credit rolls or at least drawn to look like AI art.
will is a magic user (illusionist) in the credits. heâs never been that in the show.
the graduation robes in the epilogue being orange when in the ronance book, nancyâs graduation robes are green
the blank yellow poster in the graduation scene
mikeâs hand weirdly twitching all the time
volume two suddenly splitting byler and elmax when we know that mike and max have always been two of the most important people to will and el respectively.
even more inconsistencies:
karenâs scar disappears in the final scene where she opens the basement door and calls the party up
the handle on the door in the basement behind the party is on the right (when itâs originally on the left)
the duffers intentionally sounding stupid in interviews (saying the demos arenât in the final battle because they didnât anticipate it. when vecna saw through the memories of both el and hop that episode AND can spy through will)
why 12 kids? the duffers said they didnât really think about it an they like clock imagery, but robin in the narrative specifically asks âwhy 12 kids?â
willâs vecna vision is basically the ending mike wheeler got
âand meâ âand meâ / âi believeâ âi believeâ sounding like cult chants (this is just an observation)
floors, outfits resembling chessboards.
no mention of suzie at all
whereâs the 3rd waterfall in mikeâs version of el escaping? if itâs his fantasy, why isnât it right?
dustin says âchaotic good and chaotic badâ but itâs âchaotic good and chaotic evilâ (they even put the alignment in the credits) also there are three classes of chaos - chaotic neutral too.
expanding on a point before but melvalds doesnât sell milkshakes like will said it does
will canât enjoy getting lost in the woods
they said barbâs body will return. we didnât see it. they also said no scenes were cut in st5.
five chimes as the abyss starts to descend. last season we were told that each chime represents one victim
why are the âpopular kidsâ suddenly chummy with the party? what led up to that?
why does mike hold el so awkwardly in his last conversation with her?
scene of party playing dnd and will is in his will the wise costume in the finale - not a scene that happened in the show.
credit erasing will behind mileven in the rink o mania scene
I so want to believe this is real but well, as others have said it wouldn't fix the hurt it caused. Its still just a cash grab, just from the opposite direction this time.
I thought 2025 was a crappy year and yet a few days into 2026 we have had the biggest queerbait in history and the U.S. has kidnapped the President of Venezuela. I am already dreading the rest of this year...
I knew mainstream media was shit but god damn having my feeds blasted by all these articles praising the Stranger things finale makes me nauseous. Like the most recent one I saw claimed Mike had the best ending, like? lmao. It really shows just how homophobic, misogynistic, racist etc corporate media and by extension mainstream everything, really is.
Personally I am gonna take a leaf out of the Harry Potter fandoms book if I ever do write more fics for ST. Putting fuck J.K. Rowling at the beginning of every fic is quite common there. I look forward to having "fuck the incel brothers" or some variation of at the start of every byler fic from now on (and honestly that should apply to every stranger things fic considering they messed up literally every single character not just byler).
So, I haven't used this blog in a long time but with the end of Stranger Things I wanted to give my thoughts. After the reveal of the incel brothers, I just wanted to thank everyone in the byler fandom for writing a better story than they intended, especially @beepboop358 @kaypeace21 @hawkinsschoolcounselor and my bestie @willthecleric .
If there is one thing this whole experience shows us is that the sheer distain hurled at the queer community after this historic queerbait shows just how much of a threat we are to them. They had to torture several minorites with no payoff to satisfy their white male fantasy world and yet they are still so afraid of queer people being strong. Don't be sad that is what happened, be angry, our fight will carry on and no matter how much they try and tear us down they will never win.
I distanced myself from ST after S4 because I was concerned but still hopeful but it still hurts I am not gonna lie. But in hindsight it isnt surprising that this is the ending because whilst capitalism exists minorites will always be a plot device for profit. If you look back at the writing with the knowledge that the writers are incels you end up seeing it very differently.
But in the end, like we have taken fandoms from their authors before, they end up sad and lonely with all their money still trying to hurt minorities and we continue to be better writers than they ever are (someone needs to stick the faces of like elon musk and J.K. Rowling on the duffer brothere I swear). Personally I have debated writing my own canon divergence fic from season 2 (the last season before the show got a cash injection and became a marvel movie) but we shall see.
I could say much more about the specific problems of the show but I won't repeat the words of others. Just thank you all, stay safe, I love you!
have u ever considered that u might be a narcissist bruh?
Lol, I haven't posted on this account in over a year, no clue why I got this notification.
Only on the internet would a stranger come up to you and ask if you a narcissist with zero context and zero evidence lol. Would love to hear your explanation for this but I doubt you have a good one and most likely you don't even know what the actual medical definition of a narcissist is.
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